Does a CHARACTER know in advance when they are going to fail a crafting check, such as when they attempt to craft a magical item that they couldn't succeed on even with a natural 20?
On one hand, if they know, cured items can't really exist accidentally (as no one would ever fail). It also strikes me as metagaming.
On the other hand, why would someone buy scrolls/get help to lower the DC if there wasn't an expectation of failure?
Looking to find out what the RAW is on the matter.
I would assume the crafting check represents a number of actions over time, and a character knows when they've f%~#ed up royally on one of those steps normally (by 4 or less).
However, 5 or more I would say falls into "gross incompetence" territory. I.e. they f$~&ed up so bad they don't know how, where. or even IF they've f!#$ed up at all.
I don't think there's a RAW answer to this one though.
They'd certainly know they are skipping pre-reqs, which is just about the only way to get those DCs high enough to auto-fail.
Cursed items could still happen, though, because the expectation is that you would still try to craft an item without a guaranteed success, even though people don't actually ever do that.
I would think that, unless they fail so bad that the item is obviously flawed or explodes or disintegrates, they wouldn't. They don't know the DCs, and they don't know their numerical bonuses.
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Honestly, if I was asked to build a car, I would say heck no. If I rolled a natural twenty, I might get the steering wheel right. But I have absolutely no skill with cars.
Something I have some skill in is computer programming. Some. If someone asked me to write a program that's fairly advanced, I'd probably decline politely. I know I wouldn't do well, or it would take me multiple attempts before I got it right.
Now, if someone asked me to dunk a basketball (I'm 6'7"), I'd probably do it on the first try, but I know there's a possibility of failure... Basketball isn't necessarily a craft but you get the point.
People know their skills and limits, characters should too.
(unless they fail to understand how difficult a thing they are trying to accomplish is... but if they have any skill in the field they are operating in they should down right know, if even from stories of other people failing to do similar tasks)
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Frankly, the magic item crafting rules are something that sounds cool at first glance: OK, you need certain things and then purchase materials and work for days and then there is a chance you succeed but also a chance that screwing up will produce one of those funny cursed items - a neat little package that explains how magical items are created, why they cost so much, and how cursed items even exist. Bravo!
Then you delve into the details and find out that any ninny with a feat can Take-10 and auto-succeed at creating magical items that ordinarily mimic spells that the ninny can't even figure out how to cast. All the ninny needs is a decent pile of cash (or an investor) and a few days. Done. No randomness. No risk. No failure.
That's when the "Bravo!" turns into "Really?" and you start to wonder why even bother having all these rules in the first place. Magical item creation could have taken 1 page in the CRB and gone like this:
1. Decide what to make.
2. Use this list of formulas to figure out the cost (or look it up if it's an existing item).
3. Spend half the price in gold and 1 day per 500 gp that you spend.
4. Enjoy your new item.
See, no Spellcraft roll that everybody always makes, no weird limitations, restrictions, and rules that we all ignore because it's so easy and automatic anyway. Just over and done, move onto the next chapter.
But, to answer the OP, presumably the few cursed items (how many are there, really, in all the piles of official 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder published adventures? A few dozen? A hundred? Probably not much more than that, compared to scores of thousands of non-cursed magical items) exist because Take-10 is a gamist mechanic that might or might not be practically applicable to ever crafter every time, and some of them might not be perfectly optimized for crafting, so some of those might actually do poorly (e.g. roll too low) and screw it up.
I guess our heroic adventurers don't suffer that problem, since their players understand the mechanic and always Take-10 to ensure there are no risks.
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At some point my druid was sitting on way-above WBL cash, and I was looking to see what I could make. It turns out that the spellcraft check is not always guaranteed for non-Intelligence casters making above-WBL stuff.
Anyway. By the time you get CWI, you'll have 3-5 ranks in Spellcraft, which is more theoretical skill than most people pick up during their lifetime. You've also gotten a feat invested, which suggests significant professional knowledge. So a crafter has a good idea of how good he is. He's also got some idea of how hard it is to do what he's trying to do, what prerequisites he's missing, a feeling of the CL he's going for and so forth.
In fact, CL being more or less up to the crafter, a crafter could say "... and finally, I'll put in as much spare power as I'm comfortable with", making it an even Take 10-able DC.
You have to be in a comfortable, calm area to Craft. In fact, the necessary conditions for Crafting are basically the conditions necessary to Take 10.
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And this isn't the only one. Take a look at Sleight of Hand + Scarab of Death, or the Mace of Blood tied to a captured paladin, or the Robe of Powerlessness as a way of weakening prisoners (they all get to wear it for a minute, but that's enough to enfeeble nearly anyone).
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Regarding cursed items. This is bad design and you would do well to just tear out those pages from your book and burn them.
Dust of Sneezing and ChokingAura moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot none; Weight —
Description
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 3d6 points of ]Constitution damage immediately. Those who [b[succeed[/b] on this saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Creation
Magic Items dust of appearance, dust of tracelessness
So this is basically a nuke. On a successful save the victims are at least 4 rounds stunned. Don't care who you are, you're dead.
How shall we make this? Let's take an incompetent CWI wizard, and ask him to make Dust of Tracelessness (he doesn't have the Pass Without Trace spell so +5 DC). Just to make it worse we'll keep him drunk most of the time to further lower his Intelligence and make sure he fails the Spellcraft check. We'll ask him to give it caster level 20 just to make sure he fails the Spellcraft check at more than 5 even if he Takes 10.
So now we've spent 125 gold to make this allegedly "cursed" weapon and we're ready to commit war crimes.
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I'm not saying the current magic item system is exciting; it isn't. But please don't be fooled into the whole cursed items part, because that's far worse.
Magic items are meant to be created off-screen; it's not exciting, it's just shopping. It should be routine, shouldn't go wrong, and we should be getting on with the real adventure as soon as possible.
If this is a crafting feat possessed by the PC, then of course he or she shouldn't know in advance when a crafting check is going to succeed, at least not if there is any chance that it could go either way. Neither should the player know. That's what the crafting die roll is for. However, the PC should at least have a rough idea of how likely a failure on the check will be and the player should know EXACTLY what the chance of failure/success should be, just as the player knows exactly what the PCs saves and BAB are.
If it is an item being crafted by a cohort, then it depends on whether the player has access to that cohort's character sheet. Either way, the PC (not player, but the player's character) probably won't have much of a clue exactly how likely success or failure is for the PC's cohort and may not realize that failure is even possible:
"What do you mean, it didn't go exactly as planned?!"
Again, though, if the player does have access to the cohort's sheet (as they do in most games in which I've played) the player should know the odds, just as the player knows the number and names of the spells the cohort has. Even if the player does not have access to the cohort's stats, it would be a pretty foolish cohort who wouldn't at least mention the possibility of failure if that possibility existed.
Regarding cursed items. This is bad design and you would do well to just tear out those pages from your book and burn them.
Dust of Sneezing and ChokingAura moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot none; Weight —
Description
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 3d6 points of ]Constitution damage immediately. Those who [b[succeed[/b] on this saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Creation
Magic Items dust of appearance, dust of tracelessness
So this is basically a nuke. On a successful save the victims are at least 4 rounds stunned. Don't care who you are, you're dead.
How shall we make this? Let's take an incompetent CWI wizard, and ask him to make Dust of Tracelessness (he doesn't have the Pass Without Trace spell so +5 DC). Just to make it worse we'll keep him drunk most of the time to further lower his Intelligence and make sure he fails the Spellcraft check. We'll ask him to give it caster level 20 just to make sure he fails the Spellcraft check at more than 5 even if he Takes 10.
So now we've spent 125 gold to make this allegedly "cursed" weapon and we're ready to commit war crimes.
Unless your players are all too ready to shout "Allahu akbar!" before they toss the dust (by hand. When it has a 20 ft. spread.) I wouldn't be too worried about your "nuke".
So: IF the party has a skeleton (not NEARLY a given), IF they know it's cursed beforehand (they shouldn't), and IF they find a creative way to make lemonade from their cursed item.
I'm not seeing a problem here.
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You get a cursed item if you fail by more than 5, and you can artificially jack up the difficulty by increasing the item's caster level.
As for delivery, a summoned creature will also do the trick. Or an Unseen Servant.
The point is, many cursed items have completely disproportionate saving throw DCs if they even allow saving throws at all. They'd be totally unbalanced if you could make them on purpose. They don't have a listed market price, but if you could buy them you might, because they're really powerful. I'd say that assassins would want a Scarab of Death for example; slip it in someone's pocket and one minute later it eats his heart unless he makes a DC 25 reflex save. That's pretty rough.
I think it's a side effect of porting them over from 2nd edition; 2nd edition spells were also written as if only players were using them, never monsters against the players; and therefore they had ridiculously heavy-handed effects. Just the same, cursed items are written as if they're supposed to be used against PCs, never used by them.
I think you guys are missing one important piece of cursed items... namely that even though a player might know they botched a roll (if it isn't done as a blind check), in most cases the character would not know.
The check to identify that an item is cursed is very difficult (DC15+10+CL). In addition, according to the section on removing cursed items: "While some cursed items can be simply discarded, others force a compulsion upon the user to keep the item, no matter the costs. Others reappear even if discarded or are impossible to throw away."
In our Skull & Shackles campaign, my character has a Ring of Clumsiness he "won" in our bloody hour contests, and he thinks it's the niftiest Ring of Featherfall he's ever seen! Even though I could get a cleric to cast Remove Curse to free myself from the Dex damage, my character is not even aware yet that he is under a curse. In truth has no motivation to even seek out help. My GM and I have come up with a side system to make checks in certain circumstances to be able to put 2 and 2 together, but until he does I'm playing it like he's enamored with the ring.
So, back to the OP's question, unless the crafter were to make the check to identify the cursed item, RAW he would not know that he's going to be crafting a cursed item. This is especially true if he's trying to craft an item with a CL much higher than he reasonably should, as the check would be that much harder to ID it.
Lastly regarding the question of intentially making a cursed item, as a GM I would definitely not allow that. Much like Lycanthropy, Cursed Items are supposed to be a BAD thing, not a benefit to the players. If they were intended to be used as weapons, then as Ascalaphus mentioned they would have prices listed.
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Yeah, I think it's just a bad corner of the game design. They're supposed to be bad, but they're actually better than regular items, especially if you look at the prices of "good" items that might turn out cursed.
Is it cool to have cursed items in the game now and then? Yes.
Is the current game system to generate cursed items good? No. The Take 10 system and the low-ish item creation DCs basically guarantee that they're not going to happen unless someone is monumentally stupid.
Are the cursed items as currently listed a good idea? No.
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I'd rather go with cursed items that do something right, like a cursed weapon being quite effective; but also having dangerous side effects. Maybe a creator reached beyond his grasp and basically the item is lacking safety protocols, so it does a little more than it's supposed to.
Downsides could be stuff like a weapon also causing bloodlust and a tendency to respond violently to (near) instances of friendly fire; like attacking the wizard because the fireball landed a bit too close and you don't like that.
Or downsides could be very slow to manifest, a creeping corruption.
But the current cursed items are mostly booby traps, that tend to have mostly bad effects and quickly, so they can be weaponized; and the saving throws and such against their effects are too hard (if the exist at all) compared to actual weapons.
Unless your players are all too ready to shout "Allahu akbar!" before they toss the dust (by hand. When it has a 20 ft. spread.) I wouldn't be too worried about your "nuke".
Have you considered a Bard Crafter, purposely creating it via botched rolls, and using Beguiling Gift?
I always figured so-called 'cursed' items were created intentionally ... as weapons. Slip one to an enemy and then attack him, and watch the hilarity ensue.
One side note... in our game, we rarely take 10 on the creation. Mostly this is because of the time involved, and the fact that the higher the roll, the faster the item is created. I have a Red Mantis Assassin in one game who dipped a level in Assassin... poisons are really expensive, and even after modifying the cost to create it still takes me weeks to make a few doses. If I can short cut that time w/ a few high rolls, I'll do so.
I'd also add that under the current RAW, intentionally creating a cursed item is not 100% supported. It specifically states in the section that this is due to a failure, it is an unintended consequence, and should be a drawback. Even though there are a few specific cursed items, RAW would state that you have to roll through the tables to figure out the negative effect, so the PC has no control over what they create at that point. It's also worth noting that under 3.5, this section was in the DMG, which implies that the DM should do the checks blind so that the player isn't aware of the result until the effects are noticed (that is how we play it in our game).
I don't believe that item creation or cursed items are "broken" as stated above... crafting items still comes at significant cost (half the materials, plus the cost of spellcasting services if the PC doesn't know the spell), which if the GM is truing up wealth by level should be limiting in and of itself. In addition, taking 10 to create low CL items isn't that far fetched... think of the master blacksmith, who could make an amazing sword, but most of the time is turning out horseshoes. A 5th level cleric should be able to craft potions of cure light while half asleep.
If you really think it's broken, then house-rule that you can't take 10 on a crafting check. That will solve the problem and create some level of risk (which is the intent of the cursed items in the first place).
Does a CHARACTER know in advance when they are going to fail a crafting check, such as when they attempt to craft a magical item that they couldn't succeed on even with a natural 20?
The question is related to a situation where the PC wasn't doing the crafting.
That PC wouldn't necessarily automatically know.
The NPC-Cohort might reasonably know when something is utterly beyond their ability, and then be able to pass it on to the PC who is requesting they craft the item.
The above isn't RAW.
However, given your description of the situation in the other thread, and the apparent fact that the player in question does not seem ignorant of the rules, based on your description of the episode in question, I am not sure it matters what RAW is. I have concluded he is trying to manipulate you into changing your ruling on what already happened.
I highly suspect that he himself has a reasonable grasp of the crafting rules and was trying to slip one by you (this is only a guess on my part, based on experience with similar "I get what I want or RIOT!" players), and is now "playing dumb" hoping things will favor him.
I would not change your ruling, if I were you.
At most, you might handle it differently in the future, should it ever come up. I don't think it's really "metagaming" for characters to have a ballpark-reasonable-understanding of what sort of items are simply beyond their reach in crafting. However, I think that understanding is also partly a player's responsibility.
My attitude, whether wearing a DM or a player hat, is that people have gotten too hardline on enforcing "no metagaming, characters don't know the rules just because players do." They should be able to have common-sense understandings of the gameworld and very decent "ballpark ideas" of, at minimum, what they themselves are capable of and not capable of (after all, the characters went through the training and should be reasonably expected to have as good an understanding of their own capabilities as the player does. In many cases, with inexperienced players, indeed the character is likely to know more about their own abilities than the player, which is why, as a DM, I don't mind either other players, or sometimes myself, giving helpful OOC-tips to new players). I digress but I suppose my point is: it doesn't really matter what RAW is on this. Reasonable leeway can be given. However, you're not dealing with an inexperienced player. You're dealing with one who is prone to tantrums and threats to leave if he doesn't get his way.
That's not resolvable by in-game DM concessions, IMO. Just IMO. I'm not someone who thinks DMs should be inflexible about their judgements, either; when a DM makes a mistake, as we all do, and it's (civilly) pointed out to them, they should make corrections if they reasonably can (which shouldn't include rolling back too much time; DM judgement is key in just what is reasonable). But this situation sounds - again from your description in the other thread - like this player pulls this raeg of stuff too much. Stand by your ruling in this case but explain how you'll handle similar situations in the future.
They would know about how easy it is for them, in general.
For example...
Cant Fail (Needs a 1 or better) : Pffft, I do this in my sleep...
Needs a 5 or less : Pfft, I do this while drunk all the time
Needs 6 to 10 : I do these all the time, they're not hard.
Needs 11 to 15 : These are kind of tricky, but I usually manage to do it.
Needs 16 to 20 : Uhm, I might be able to pull it off with a little luck.
Needs 20+ : Uh, yeah, I don't think I can do that without more resources and some help... and maybe a miracle or two...
Unless your players are all too ready to shout "Allahu akbar!" before they toss the dust (by hand. When it has a 20 ft. spread.) I wouldn't be too worried about your "nuke".Have you considered a Bard Crafter, purposely creating it via botched rolls, and using Beguiling Gift?
How delightfully underhanded...
See, I could think it likely that a crafter not understand their limitations. You could have high Int but low Wis, and that mix could make you think you can do anything if you put your mind to it. Or if you are spontaneous, you could have a high Cha and low Int/Wis... if everyone's always responded well to you, and magic has always been intuitive, why couldn't you be deluded into thinking you could do something above your level. But that depends on the PC's ability score mix, and how the Player interprets those abilities as manifesting in that PC.
But this and most of the info above, while justifiable and logical, is not based on written Rules. If you want to go straigh RAW, there is nothing stating that a character would or wouldn't be able to know if they could succeed before the attempt. The "using skills" section implies that a character knows they've botched it once the check is made, because they make no progress or ruin materials (obvious results).
In the case of Magical Items, the risk is greater in that the results of failure are not obvious, unless they make the fairly difficult check to ID it as a cursed item. So if it is more difficult to know you failed it AFTER the fact, I'd say that implies it really should probably not be known before the attempt (but that is trying to conjecture the designer's intent).
Long and short, this seems to be purely a GM fiat area... which means if players disagree w/ the GM on whichever call he makes, they can make logic based cases in either direction. But at the end of the day it's a GM's call.
Whether Ford knew he could make a car or not is irrelevant.
We're not discussing creating a new type of item here.
We're talking about constructing an item that is already known to exist, and for which plans exist.
A better example would be, can a custom car maker have a good idea of whether he can rebuild a 4 cylinder diesel engine given a workshop and parts? Can same car maker know whether he can rebuild an 8 cylinder unleaded engine and fabricate custom body panels for a custom hot-rod? Can the same car maker know whether he can put a 16 cylinder motor from a WWII corsair into a custom rat-rod and fabricate engine mounts, drive train, and custom body panels? Can the same car maker know whether he can take a jet motor off a small commuter jet plane, fabricate engine and structural bracing to put it into a funny car, and then build all the safety structures needed?
Yes, he can. All this is doable, and there are plans for such. Does he have the skill to follow those plans? Rebuild a 4cyl diesel engine? Yep, a professional mechanic can do that without even trying hard. The 8 cyl and custom body panesl? Sure, he does that all the time, it's his day job. Putting a 16cyl motor into a rat rod? Ok, now we're getting into some tricky stuff, but if he takes his time, and has all the parts and tools he needs, he can probably get it to work eventually. The jet engine funny car? Now we're in place that's way out of his comfort zone and training. Sure, he can get specs, but one mistake and it blows up completely (cursed object) and he doesn't feel he can do that with even a small chance he can do it safely.
Did they know the item exists?
Did they know that a belt of +2 str exists? Uhm, yeah, that's one of the most common items in the game. So anyone with Knowledge(Arcane) ranks at all knows it exists. Fighters know it exists.
I suppose the player may have stated the name of the desired object or one with abilities similar to what he wanted. Did the character know there's such a thing in existence or did they have a desire for an item with abilities that coincide with an existing game item?
So basically, you assume that common items (like Belts that increase stats, or healing potions) are uknown to the general populace? Sorry. The game does not assume that, it assumes that magic is common, and magic items are common. not all are of course, but a belt, yes, that's dirt common. Same with a cloak of resistance, those are well know. Rings of protection. Magic swords, magic armor. Nobody needs a knowledge check to know they exist.
Do plans for the item exist? I also agree that there is likely a wizard or other crafter who has made notes on the process for making the item or one similar to what was attempted. Did the crafter bother to get some plans? Did the crafter make any attempt at all to make even the slightest attempt at making the task easier? For all we know, they cut corners and ignored every prerequisite they possibly could. To me that means they are intentionally ignoring a risk of failure.
Since there are no penalties for not knowing about the items, it's patently obvious the system assumes the crafter knows what the @*$#* he's trying to make.
The straight-forward answer is that a character will probably have an idea of success based only on things they actually know. That means, how skilled they are and the base DC for crafting a specific item. After that, certain other modifiers are only in the helpful or harder category.
No, it's not the straight forward answer. The straight forward answer is, if he's making any standard magical item, then it's a straight forward magical item that everyone knows about. You might have some argument for custom magic items (like a belt that adds to stats and acts as a monks' robe for example), but nothing in the core items supports your assertion. You'd have add a whole section to the rules about 'knows about item' or 'very familiar with item' or 'never heard of item'. Nothing like that exists in the rules, that's your houserule.
The player may know that masterwork tools can add a +x bonus, the character only knows that they have good tools.
BS. The character knows that a sword is either a 'minor' or an 'intermediate' or 'advanced' or 'major' or 'ultimate' magic weapon. He may not know, in character, the nomenclature of '+1' vs '+2', but he knows the difference between the two. Otherwise you'd never be able to settle on a price for a freaking magic weapon because nobody would know the difference between +1 and +5 If you want to make all magic items unidentifiable, then you can just toss all the prices out because nobody can tell what to pay for or charge for any magic weapon because 'nobody knows how powerful they are'.
The player may know that Accelerated Crafting adds 10 to the DC, the character only knows that it will make crafting harder. A player can know that each prerequisite not supplied by the creator is a +5 DC, the character only knows that it will make it harder.
Ask any chef, which is harder, baking a two tiered cake, or a six tiered cake? Then ask them about how much extra effort it takes? Now ask a mechanic which is harder, building a kit car, or building a custom hot rod? Any competent craftsman can tell you, roughly, whether something is possible or not. Your statement would have had us, throughout history, having people say 'Uh, dunno, I might be able to make a staircase out of pine, but I only done oak before, so I don't know'. Does he know exactly? No, but he's going to have a pretty darn good ballpark, unless he's a novice. But even a novice is going to know 'Hey, if I don't have 2/3rds of what I need, I'm going to need a miracle to pull it off'. I find the whole argument that people with actual ranks in a skill don't know anything about the skill to be preposterous.
Can a character understand that by piling negatives and hindrances onto a project the task will become impossible? Yes, of course, but they should not know the level at which it exactly becomes that (unless based strictly on their skill level and base DC or other factors they have actually experienced and worked through, sometimes over several attempts, like trying to pick a lock and figuring out the exact DC to open it.)
Let's try your logic.
Can you jump over a 1 foot puddle?
Can you jump over a 1 foot puddle if I put 250 lbs of weight on your back?
Can you jump over a 1 foot puddle if I put 500 lbs of weight on your back?
Can you jump over a 1 foot puddle if I put 750 lbs of weight on your back?
Per your logic, you can't decide if it's harder to do a jump with 250 or 500 lbs. Remember, these things are not adding a minor penalty (like 1) they're adding +5 each (that's increase the difficulty by 25% each time you add something). That's not a little thing, that's a BIG thing, and it doesn't take much to figure out that that is going to rapidly put it into the realm of 'I need a miracle'.
So you claim, he's your character. I can't really argue but I'm pretty sure if his boss paid for the parts and ordered him to try it he would make the attempt. Whether he would actually know how hard it is, I don't think he would. He's dealing with something outside his area of expertise. He's just guessing that it might be too hard, the DC could be well within his abilities. Will he speak up? I don't know, maybe he really, really wants a chance to try and do it and if he speaks up or shows reluctance he might never get the chance. He might even lose what job he has now or be replaced by the guy that does get hired to do the job. Is he the kind of person who takes his shot? I don't know.
Now you're twisting what I'm saying. Whether he says something or not is up to the GM. Sure, he could keep quiet, but it honestly doesn't get you anything to stay quiet. He should speak up and say 'Hey, I don't think this will work, and it could turn out very bad'. But that's a seperate argument, and one I never made, so stop putting words in my mouth. Personally, I would have the NPC say something about not thinking he can make it, but that's me.
I can screw up cooking a meal, even the same meal, I've made over and over even following a recipe. Sometimes there are factors that come into play that you can't control. Sometimes the oven says 450 but it's output is 415 and only after the first few tries and having to figure out what the actual problem was (not skill, not a too complex recipe, but instead equipment) can you pinpoint whether you have any chance. There's factors that can't be controlled, that's what the d20 range is made to emulate.
Yes it can, but the game doesn't autofail on a 1, so there's no way to screw up cooking pasta under the rules after a certain point. That's because it's a simulation of reality, not reality. However, that would be a circumstance penalty, not anything to do with his skill. And if he doesn't know about the penalty, he'd accurately say 'I can do this in my sleep' and be wrong. But it wouldn't be because he didn't know what he was doing or about how hard it was in general.
I could also start cutting corners, leaving things out (failing to apply requirements), and I might know that this will affect the quality (make it harder to produce an acceptable result) but I can't know whether the product will be acceptable until the end.
We're back to moving the goal posts, but ok. Again, circumstance bonuses. And again, the guy should have an idea. "Hey, I usually can do this no problem but it takes me a week or so. I can cut some corners and try to hammer it out in a couple of days, but I can't guarantee it'll come out right." That's all that he has to know and communicate.
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At the VERY least, you have a general idea. I'm a chef by trade. So lets use cooking. I have a recipe for chocolate chip cookies. Well I'm fairly well skilled so with a quick look, I know I can do this while half asleep. Then I see a recipe for quail stuffed with pate with a cherry zin glaze. Well once again I am quite skilled so I have a pretty good chance of doing this one just fine as well. Now I have a recipe for a souvid chicken served with crispy skin on a bed of frisee with a hollandaise vinaigrette and pouched egg. Only I have no souvid machine, no oven, no oil, no salt no pepper and using a campfire to do everything in. Yeah I am pretty dang skilled but I'm pretty sure that ain't coming out right. Exact numbers, probably not, but generally yeah you know.
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At the VERY least, you have a general idea. I'm a chef by trade. So lets use cooking. I have a recipe for chocolate chip cookies. Well I'm fairly well skilled so with a quick look, I know I can do this while half asleep. Then I see a recipe for quail stuffed with pate with a cherry zin glaze. Well once again I am quite skilled so I have a pretty good chance of doing this one just fine as well. Now I have a recipe for a souvid chicken served with crispy skin on a bed of frisee with a hollandaise vinaigrette and pouched egg. Only I have no souvid machine, no oven, no oil, no salt no pepper and using a campfire to do everything in. Yeah I am pretty dang skilled but I'm pretty sure that ain't coming out right. Exact numbers, probably not, but generally yeah you know.
This! I'm not a chef, but I've always loved the crafting=cooking analogy.
In this instance I think a character should know when they can take a 10, when taking a 10 won't cut it, and when they have no chance of success.
Cursed items would naturally result by accident from the second category.
I don't think Pizza Lord is interested in anything that doesn't agree with him. To PL, the characters are all morons who have no idea how much training they have, no idea how hard any task is, and no idea what they are making when they start nor how to do it.
I think I'll stick with the system as obviously intended, and as is analogous to the real world, where someone skilled in the art can tell you a ball park 'easy, doable, tricky, almost impossible, snowballs chance' based on the requirements.
On a second note, I don't have time to track it down, but part of the FAQ response on +5, Sean indicated that the dev's intended it to be next to impossible to create a cursed item unless you were really really trying to do something way out of your league. So that would indicate that actually screwing up should be hard unless you're intentionally overreaching what you can do, which requires you to know what you can do.
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Immaterial to the post, you still need to have the raw materials and a suitable workplace. That IS actually in the rules. In this case, a CHARACTER would know that the task is impossible. Without the zinfandel, it doesn't matter how much quail you have or how good the cherries, you aren't going to get the dish correct. In fact, it could actually turn out disastrously wrong if you didn't understand how the zin reacted with the cherry sauce and how that affected the cooking time of the quail once glazed on.
A campfire is a workplace. You have a penalty, but you can work on the road. All the stuff I mentioned can be replicated IF your REALLY good and know your cooking...I am not that good and I know it. It's like missing a spell for crafting an item. You can replace it with something else...if your good...hence the higher DC.
Yes, and by your statement we can presume you have made chocolate chip cookies before or at the very least a cookie of some type which we can all agree the addition of chocolate chips is highly unlikely to change the skill level. As such we both agree, a person performing a task that they have done before should know the probability of success. You and I can both agree that someone who has only successfully made toast in a toaster, even if was 'cinnamon' toast and then they managed to butter it, doesn't mean they know how to work an oven, or understand the reason they see people stick a toothpick in the batter, or even understand that when the door opens there's going to be a blast of really hot air flying out, even if they know that an oven is hot.
Are you under the mistaken impression that somebody who has taken a craft feat and has ranks in skills have NEVER done thing associated with that skill before?!? Seriously?!? Yeah gonna say WTF to this.
If your character has enough ranks in Spellcraft to identify it, and the relevant crafting Feat, he knows what it is, what is required to make it, and how hard it would be. He knows the "recipe" as it were.
If I've never made chocolate chip cookies before, but I have the recipe, that is not somehow going to baffle me into going "Oh lawdy I've got no clue how to use an oven any more!" or anything silly like that. You don't need hands-on experience to follow a recipe. That's what the recipe is FOR.
Now, if he's never made one before...maaaybe he doesn't know what it's supposed to look like EXACTLY when it comes out. Maybe he doesn't realize that the fact that the belt buckle is silver instead of gold means his Belt of Physical Perfection is actually that Belt of Powerlessness, just like a newbie baker/someone who's never made cookies may not realize that the fact that the tops are golden brown but the bottoms are scorched black means you messed up a bit.
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All the stuff I mentioned can be replicated IF your REALLY good and know your cooking...Nooo, all that stuff you mentioned (salt, oil, chicken) is considered raw materials and you pay that cost to begin crafting. Those aren't requirements you can try and buy off with increased DC. That's the stuff you have to replace when you screw up your check.
If cooking was similar to creating magic items, then perhaps it would be possible. There would be dishes that say things like, 'Must be an orc' or 'Can only be made on St. Patrick's Day.' Then maybe adding to the DC would apply but, as it stands, your example is incorrect and you are mistaken.
Are you under the mistaken impression that somebody who has taken a craft feat and has ranks in skills have NEVER done thing associated with that skill before?!? Seriously?!? Yeah gonna say WTF to this.I don't know ::scratches chin thoughtfully:: I guess... when a player's character gets level 3... and he tells you he's adding a rank in Spellcraft and taking the Craft Wondrous Item feat... If he then looks across the table at you and says he wants to craft a pair of Gloves of Dexterity because he's made hundreds of them before... I'm gonna hope that this example makes some sense to you. Regardless of how many ranks he had in Spellcraft last level or how many he put in this level and regardless of the fact he has taken a crafting feat, that does not automatically mean the character has crafted every item that's listed in the book. I'm pretty much 100% on it.
A character has a history, they have a list of things they have and have not done, regardless of skill points. If you, as a DM, allow a character to have a back-story where they did things like fight in the Orc Wars or win the big Chili Cook-Off, that's fine, that means it may be something the character did, more power to him. Otherwise, a DM could also just as easily say, "I see you've taken some Cooking skill to enter the big Chili Cook-Off, but making...
NO, your mistaken. The list of ingredients is the requirements for the item. The gold you spend on getting said ingredients is the gold you spend on materials. If I don't have quail, I can get squab or sparrow and try with that instead. It makes it harder (hence higher DC). So once again, a person who is trained knows their general limits. I would give you a can take 1 and succeed, take 10 and succeed, need to roll to get it, highly unlikely (need a 19-20) and impossible for you.
Being trained in various equipment of the trade is part of having ranks in a skill. Just because I have never made a recipe does not mean I can't easily make it if the recipe is easy enough. Just because the character never made a glove of dueling does not mean he has no clue on how to make it. He has made other items in the process of learning the skill and the feats so that the roll culminates in everything he has learned so far to make it happen.