Player upset over cursed item; what to do?


Advice

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the players in my Skull and Shackles game recently leveled up to 7, took Leadership, and [he] rolled up a new witch cohort and put her on crafting duty.

His first order of business was to have her make a belt of physical perfection +2 for himself, without any of the requisite spells and with only a +13 Spellcraft modifier.

Later, in between games, I informed him that his new belt hadn't worked out. Fortunately though the witch, being an intelligent spellcaster, checked her work before passing it down to him and (with a high roll, identify, and an aiding familiar) found it to be cursed (-2 to all physical stats).

Saying he is upset is an understatement. He blames me, saying that I should have informed him of the impossibility of crafting such an item beforehand and that, if the witch was so smart, she never would have attempted it in the first place. He's pissed enough to quit the group (that he loves otherwise) over the matter. This is one of our best campaigns to date, and he is one of its biggest fans. I'd hate to lose him over it, but I don't want to give in just because it didn't go his way either--leaving me at something of an impasse.

As far as I know, I followed the rules as they are meant to be followed and have done nothing wrong, but I wanted to check with you to be sure. It just doesn't make sense to me to say that she would know she would fail. If that were true, then no one would ever accidentally craft a cursed item. It's rare enough as it is that it happens. Also, why am I suddenly the bad guy just because he wasn't familiar with his own characters' abilities and limitations?

Heck, he's even playing an evil pirate. He could totally sell it to some poor sap and get his gold back, or use it as a weapon against an enemy.

Hopefully he will cool down enough that we can talk about it meaningfully soon.

This is NOT a scenario. This is actually happening.


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He's wrong, you are right... but it isn't worth pushing.

Let him know that you followed the rules, but if it is keeping him from having fun, you will revoke the action and let him go back and do something else.

Not a huge deal.

Then ask him if he is okay with the rules as written moving forward or if they will prevent him from having fun in the game.

Make sure you guys come to an agreement and then let it go. In the long term it is a really minor concern for the campaign.


How long has it been since the incident? Has the player had the chance to calm down, take a breath, and realize that this is his fault for not reading up on the crafting rules? It sounds harsh, but that strikes me as the truth of the matter. Your player got ahead of himself and didn't take the proper precautions. Now, as for a possible work around.

Have the witch do one of two things. Either the witch can take the item, break it down, and use half of the GP value that was spent crafting it in a second attempt. The player looses out on time and has to spend half the crafting value of the item to try again.

Or have her suggest to your player that this could prove useful as a means of tricking a powerful enemy into hurting themselves. Turning the belt into a weapon to be used against a physically imposing target. Start by building up rumors about the power of this new magical trinket, where enemy ears are sure to pick up the news, and trying to trick someone into taking it. Then, after the enemy dons their new belt, the players could find the chance to strike.

Crafty adventurers should always be looking for a way to turn the tables in their favor. It is what makes them big damn heroes.


Firstly you did nothing wrong mechanicly. The cursed item mechanics exist so that this is possible.

But how new to the game is he?

The item crafting rules make for pretty dense reading if you're new to the game.

If he's fresh off the bus new then I'd be inclined to give him a take-backsey as long as he knows it's a one time deal and that hence forth it's his responsibility to know how his abilities work.

If he's a veteran player and he just has a bit of a brain fart then I have no real sympathy.

- Torger


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

He should at least know enough about item crafting to know there is a check involved and that there is a possibility of getting a cursed item (and, being an experienced roleplayer, he likely knows far more than that). Our group has been playing together for years and have made magical items dozens of times before.


This is like a player reading a spell wrong and getting killed, like with black tentacles.

"My spells shouldn't hurt ME!"

Sigh.

You're in the right. Give him some gold to offset the loss and you should be fine. If he's being pissy about not getting the item, well that's how the rules work. Let him do the checks himself next time.


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Ravingdork wrote:
He should at least know enough about item crafting to know there is a check involved and that there is a possibility of getting a cursed item (and he likely knows far more than that). Our group has been playing together for years and have made magical items dozens of times before.

Yup, sounds like a tantrum then and in that case I personaly wouldn't budge.

- Torger


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Been talking to another roleplaying friend who apparently tried to console the troubled player. He says he mentioned the idea of pawning the item off on some sap (losing nothing but time) to which he apparently got a "that's not the point" kind of response.

I don't think a refund is going to help here.


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Given the extreme competence their cohort shows, it makes sense that they should have also warned him of the chance to fail.

But, I've got no patience for anyone that wants to give up on a game because things don't always go perfectly their way. A chance of failure and consequence is one of the things that makes tabletop gaming better than most video games. And I deal with enough entitled self-absorption in real life, don't need it from any alleged friends.

The chance of failure when crafting, along with downtime management, makes it an interesting mini-game instead of just spending a feat for a drastic shopping discount.

I think bringing up the idea to recoup some of their losses by scamming some poor schmuck into buying it is more than generous. Just watch out for them trying to farm dust of choking and sneezing or other excellent cursed items, selling the the successes so they lose nothing but time.


Maybe try to find out what the point is, then. If tantrums are out of character for him, this is probably just a final straw for some other perceived problem with you.


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He sounds like a big baby. Though it is a valid concern as to whether or not this is characteristic behavior for him. If this is normal, you're probably better off without him.


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Show him the rules, then remind him that the witch can't see her character sheet to know what her bonus is, nor the rulebook to see what the DC is.

Liberty's Edge

The player rolled up the witch. He plainly did not understand the cohort's abilities and did not bother to ask about the process of making a magic item. It's quite arrogant (and childish) that he would blame the GM for his lack of knowledge.

People make mistakes. Characters are people. It happens. Give him the option to sell the belt to a local mage who has an interest in researching curses and/or cursed items (1/4 cost).


I personally would think about giving the belt some special hidden ability that came about because of the curse something that makes the belt unique maybe even a ability good enough that he's glad he has the belt. Such as also make a belt of gender changing or a belt of imprisonment or even a belt of truth to me that sounds like a rather borring cursed item.


I'd offer that he could sell the belt as a belt of physical perfection +2, getting half value (recouping his lost investment) since he is as you mentioned, evil.

If that isn't good enough for him... I'd be worried what happens when he fails a save? "That shouldn't have happened!?!" I mean, really, with anything, there is a chance of failure. He could always fire the witch and roll up a new cohort instead I suppose.


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Speaking as a usually-DM, sometimes-player:

Seems like unnecessary gotcha-ism on your part, Ravingdork. You did nothing wrong rules-wise, but I wouldn't call it best DM practice.

As a DM, in such a situation, I point out the possibility of failure to the player, like: "Hey, you know that has a chance of failure, right?", and in response get either a "Ah damn, forgot about that, thanks" or a "Still going ahead with it!".

Players are human; they can't be expected to remember every rule. So are DMs, of course; in my group, we all, players and DM, remind each other of rules in cases like this. My players remind me of rules I've forgotten even when the rule is detrimental to their characters. I show them the same courtesy.

If I were a player, I'd be a bit upset with the DM in this case, and I'd talk to him in the hopes of persuading him to be more helpful in the future.

That said, the tantrum and threat of ragequitting is definitely excessive. In his place I'd go for the "sell the thing to some schmucks" solution and move on with life.


Just realized, is this the same group that has a thing about messing with your head by faking game-ending drama because your angst is funny to them? I seem to recall a similar situation a few months back..


IC Answer: Sell the item as suggested, use Diplomacy to potentially even mark up the price. Remember to be disguised while selling said item so your victim, I mean customer, doesn't recognize you and cannot readily seek revenge.

OC Answer: Your player sounds like a whiner. Outside the mundane, very few things have a guaranteed chance of success in these games, your players should know that. You said they're not a beginner, so they should act like it. Figure out why they're doing this drama routine. Way I see it boils down to a few possibilities:

-Spoiled Player: They only ever succeed and they can't ever fail otherwise the character is ruined for them. This is mostly BS in my opinion, let them leave if this is the case cause PCs do fail on occasion.

-Manipulative Player: They might know you really want them in the group and are holding you at ransom to fix this. Personally up to you(they your BF/GF? Then that's a whole other bag of cats) but I'd otherwise just drop them from the group.

-Frustrated Player: Either by stuff happening out of game, or repeated failure in game, they could just be at a breaking point and taking it out on you over something they really shouldn't. If you think this is the case, talk to them & explain the rules and ask them what they want you to do. Don't let them succeed anyways however, it will make you look weak. Do be willing to compromise in any other way though(even letting them have a chance at making another item in its stead).

Cult of Vorg wrote:
Just realized, is this the same group that has a thing about messing with your head by faking game-ending drama because your angst is funny to them? I seem to recall a similar situation a few months back..

If this is them... forget this player. Seriously.


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Utter bull from the player,do not give in. Let him sit out a game or two even if he wants back in. You let yourself be bullied and its game over anyway.

Anyone who has a fit over such a trivial thing and walks out on the game,needs a time out. Even if the call was wrong(not saying it was)but even if it was,that is not the way to handle it.

Let him sit out a bit until he gets his attitude under control.

Sovereign Court

So after this game collapses, whats next for your group RD?


Ravingdork wrote:
This is NOT a scenario. This is actually happening.

Thanks for telling us!

Was the belt DC 36 to craft?:
Belt of Physical Perfection is CL 16
Difficulty to craft an item is CL+5 (That's DC 21)
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet, and there are 3 prerequisite spells, for a total of +15. (21+15= DC 36).

If so, then the Witch with +13 to the roll couldn't have succeeded. (Since her maximum result is a 33.) Since failing the roll by 5 or more makes a cursed item, the chance of a cursed item was 85%.

To summarize:
85% cursed
15% failure
0% success

Is my math right?

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My players are among my best friends (some of whom I've known for over 20 years) and I might be in the minority here, but I can't fathom the concept of kicking one of my players to the curb over a rule dispute, no matter how right I was.

-Skeld

Edit: Advice = recon and move on. Given that the cohort is smart enough to have advised about the high-ish likelihood of failure, offer the player the choice to try again knowing the risk, or to take a different route.


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RD, is this the same player you mentioned in This Thread, or is your gaming group just made up entirely of overgrown children?


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The problem here is not the belt, or the witch - it's the player.

He invested a feat in a, well, not a cohort, but a sweat-shop magic item factory. Smacks of "munchkin". Then he invested his gold and expected a cheap magic item without actually investigating what the rules are, and he got burned. His investment was lost. Now he's freaking out and threatening to end friendships with his gaming group over a little bit of imaginary money in a fantasy game of imagination? Smacks of "childish".

I get it. He's your friend and you don't want to lose a friend over this kind of childish crap, so you want to salvage it. I would too. In fact, I've had this very conversation with a couple friends of mine over the years, guys who got too involved and too aggravated when things didn't always go their way. Just like your friend.

So here's what you do:

Take your friend aside. Somewhere, some time, but definitely NOT the time that your group meets to play the game. Meet him for lunch, or a walk in the park, or just have him come a half hour early before the next game. Talk to him. Tell him that you, as the GM, tried to be as fair as possible and this time the dice were against him. It happens. BUT - make sure to get the "But" in there before he starts ranting and raving. But, as the GM, you realize that his character is expected to have a certain reasonable amount of wealth, and by losing his investment, it puts his character a little behind everyone else. You know this is a problem for his character and you have plans to fix it, through in-game solutions, so that his character won't be penalized, or made to suffer, because of this setback. Remind him that you are friends and that friends don't torment their friends and you have no intention of tormenting him, even second-hand by tormenting his character, and that you will take care of him in-game. Then tell him to chill out and enjoy the game and not take it so seriously and that you, as GM, will definitely make sure his character is taken care of.

If he's worth having as a friend, somewhere in that conversation he should chill out. Hopefully. My friends did.

Liberty's Edge

Blueluck wrote:


Belt of Physical Perfection is CL 16
Difficulty to craft an item is CL+5 (That's DC 21)
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet, and there are 3 prerequisite spells, for a total of +15. (21+15= DC 36).

If so, then the Witch with +13 to the roll couldn't have succeeded. (Since her maximum result is a 33.) Since failing the roll by 5 or more makes a cursed item, the chance of a cursed item was 85%.

To summarize:
85% cursed
15% failure
0% success

Is my math right?

Actually, the CL 16 is listed as an example of a Belt of Physical Perfection that is found.

If you make the item, you can assign a lower caster level.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook p.549 wrote:
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The minimum caster level to cast bear's endurance, bull's strength, and cat's grace is CL 3, so that is the minimum CL for this item.

That would place the Spellcraft DC at 23 without any prerequisites.

To summarize:
25% cursed
20% failure
55% success


Blueluck wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
This is NOT a scenario. This is actually happening.

Thanks for telling us!

** spoiler omitted **

If so, then the Witch with +13 to the roll couldn't have succeeded. (Since her maximum result is a 33.) Since failing the roll by 5 or more makes a cursed item, the chance of a cursed item was 85%.

To summarize:
85% cursed
15% failure
0% success

Is my math right?

Not necessarily. The Witch may have had Patron spells which granted 1 of the prerequisite spells plus Witches can learn new spells through scrolls.

If the Witch had even 1 of the spells, it would be a DC 31 spellcraft check.

15% (18-20) Success
20% (14-17) Failure
65% (1-13) Cursed

I'd be inclined to say this one time, we'll pretend like nothing happened. Make sure it's known it's a one-time deal, though.

Liberty's Edge

If the item was made at CL 3 without prerequisites (Spellcraft DC 23), and the witch took 10 with her Spellcraft check, she would have automatically succeeded...

Sovereign Court

I'm with DM_Blake. Talk to the guy separately. Be reasonable and calm, no matter how he reacts, and let him know that you're open to finding an amicable solution this one time. And then find a solution you're both comfortable with, not just for this instance, for any future crafting checks.

Maybe come up with a quick wisdom roll DC for his witch follower. If she makes the roll, she's smart enough to say "That's beyond my abilities" and if she doesn't, she says "yeah, I think I can do that." But really, I'd just say that for most of this stuff, the crafter should have a fair idea and inform the PC of the risks.


Heymitch wrote:
Is my math right?

Actually, the CL 16 is listed as an example of a Belt of Physical Perfection that is found. If you make the item, you can assign a lower caster level. The minimum caster level to cast bear's endurance, bull's strength, and cat's grace is CL 3, so that is the minimum CL for this item.

That would place the Spellcraft DC at 23 without any prerequisites.

To summarize:
25% cursed
20% failure
55% success

Thank you! I knew I had forgotten something important.


Heymitch wrote:
If the item was made at CL 3 without prerequisites (Spellcraft DC 23), and the witch took 10 with her Spellcraft check, she would have automatically succeeded...

I don't think that's how it works ...

CRB pg. 460 wrote:

Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entrygives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.


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When there's a good chance that a player will lose thousands of gp on a single die roll, perhaps it is best to allow that player to make the die roll himself.


Just change the curse. Not all cursed items have the exact opposite effect of the item that was trying to be made. The item would still function as the player wanted, but would still have some drawback. The player probably still won't be happy, but at least the gold and time wasn't wasted that way.


n00bxqb wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
If the item was made at CL 3 without prerequisites (Spellcraft DC 23), and the witch took 10 with her Spellcraft check, she would have automatically succeeded...

I don't think that's how it works ...

CRB pg. 460 wrote:

Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entrygives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should

the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.

Hmmm, I see your point as well.

Shadow Lodge

Sorry - what is he upset about?

It sounds like he didn't know/understand the rule before the result was given and now he's stuck with his bad consequences because of it.

Is this a game where you play softball or on hardcore mode, and do both (all) of you understand that? If you're going softball, assume it didn't happen and from now on he knows; if you're playing hardcore, his lack of knowledge on the rules he's rolling on apply and he's stuck with the bad consequences.

In a hardcore game, you can say player knowledge and character knowledge are more closely tied together, if the player doesn't know, the character might not either.

In a softcore game, you can make concessions for the sake of not falling into traps exactly like this one.


It seems he should know the DC before rolling, and make the rolls himself if he actually gets to control the witch directly. If cohorts are controlled less directly by the player/character, I do think the witch should have pointed out that it was hard to craft such an item with considerable chances of failure.

It seems in this case you are showing off your system mastery skills, or his lack thereof, and he has a right to be a bit disgruntled about that, I'd give the player the option to try make a less powerful belt and let him roll himself.


As is most of the time I read these stories about "help me with another player at the table", I'd really love to hear their side of the story...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blueluck wrote:

The Witch with +13 to the roll couldn't have succeeded. (Since her maximum result is a 33.) Since failing the roll by 5 or more makes a cursed item, the chance of a cursed item was 85%.

To summarize:
85% cursed
15% failure
0% success

Is my math right?

Yes. That's right. The witch never had a chance of succeeding. However, I gave the player several chances to get what he wanted, if indirectly.

For one, he hadn't finished picking all the witch's known spells yet. I told him she couldn't craft ANYTHING *wink wink* until we knew what her spells were. When he picked none of the prerequisite spells, I even went so far as to say "Are you sure this is what you want? You can change them before the next game if you find something better." (I will hold to this offer by the way, if he can get over himself long enough to ask me to change the spell list to lower the DC, then I will.) I even showed him the valet familiar archetype, in the hopes he would take it and it would increase his chances of not ending up with the cursed item (he did take it, and that's how he KNOWS the item is cursed; otherwise, he would have been clueless for several game sessions).

I think I've been more than generous.

Also, yes it's the same player some of you have been asking about.

Nobody said anything about friendships breaking up. He even went out of his way to say he was upset with me "as a GM." Worst case scenario he just leaves the campaign.

Helic wrote:

When there's a good chance that a player will lose thousands of gp on a single die roll, perhaps it is best to allow that player to make the die roll himself.

Why should he have had a chance to roll it? It's obviously a GM roll, otherwise a cursed item would always be known to the player making it (which clearly is not the intent of the rules). What's more, it isn't even his character that is crafting the item, it's an NPC.

Sovereign Court

From the FAQ:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?

Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13

So why didn't the witch? Anyone who's going to spend thousands of GP on a magic item should be playing it safe.

Then, the DC of the item: 5 (base) + 3 (minimum CL) + 15 (three missing prerequisites) = DC 23.

Let's say a level 5 Witch (assuming normal Leadership score for a level 7 character) with Intelligence 16, and Spellcraft 5: 3 (int) + 3 (class) + 5 (ranks) = +11. So Take 10 isn't going to cut it. Although when Taking 10 she's guaranteed never to create a cursed item, either.

But we're talking about someone seriously trained in this job (having Spellcraft 5 and CWI would qualify is a trained professional) so they'd know that this isn't something they can do through routine. So the witch should have piped up that she needs a bit of help. She needs to get a +2 from somewhere.

She could hire another spellcaster to cast the spell once per day, since the item creation rules permit this.

PRD wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Now she's got the DC down to 18 and with Take 10, success is guaranteed.

===

Yeah, you screwed your player. His cohort was "unable", under false rule assumptions to make the item. And you knew that, and concealed it from a player, punishing him for having less rules knowledge.

===

Regarding cursed items: they're a vestigial, antiquated remnant from the distant past. Most of them are horribly broken. I strongly feel that players should not even be able to make them, because most of them are the equivalent of a tactical nuke; inflicting horrible conditions with no saving throw. If you've got an incompetent cohort you might force him to botch regular items just to mine for cursed items. This is bizarrely abusable.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Did your player ask about the likelihood of success? If so, he should have had a reasonable chance of getting an answer, perhaps with a knowledge arcana roll.

Otherwise it looks like you pretty much let him drive off the cliff. I won't say that it's unfair, much of how this should be handled is really pretty much GM prerogative.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

From the FAQ:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?

Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13

So why didn't the witch? Anyone who's going to spend thousands of GP on a magic item should be playing it safe.

Then, the DC of the item: 5 (base) + 3 (minimum CL) + 15 (three missing prerequisites) = DC 23.

As was clarified already, you can only lower the CL on potions, wands, and scrolls. The DC was correct at 36. There was no screwing over the player mechanically, that was all legit.

There is no clear "right" person in this. Mechanically, everything that happened is perfectly fine. The player might be miffed at the lack of warning, but at the same time, he should have known what he was having the witch do was not possible.

Should the witch have known the crafting would fail? Maybe. Would they have told the PC? Maybe. Some of this comes down to the personality of the witch. If the witch is overconfident in her crafting abilities (perhaps the Wisdom was dumped to make an uber-crafter), maybe she thought "I'll be fine, worst case, it turns him blue". I think this is actually pretty logical, because if she had all of the spells available, the crafting would have been pretty simple for her. It wasn't the object she was crafting that caused her to fail, but the corners she cut trying to craft it. Heck, if she even had 1/3 of the spells needed, it would have been doable, so for an overconfident crafter, it may not be a stretch for her to think everything would be fine. Also, if the PC is a fearsome, evil pirate, maybe the witch was cowed and didn't want to be the one to tell the Dread Pirate Steve that something was beyond her abilities, for fear he would kill her.

But this is a kind of justification after the fact. If I was a player and you told me "Well, you intimidated her so she didn't dare tell you she was incapable", I would be kind of miffed. That's the type of characterization that should be proactive, and the cohort's cockiness/fear of my character should have come across during the crafting request.

On other hand, the cohort is a PC ability, and the cohort's crafting is a PC ability. I play by the rules of "if you don't know your own abilities, I will not help you", and this clearly falls under that category.

I am not sure why the player has such an issue with this, the idea of selling it as though it were not cursed means he can basically break even and only lose time. It also seems like a very piratey type of thing to do.

Sovereign Court

Scaevola77 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

From the FAQ:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?

Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13

So why didn't the witch? Anyone who's going to spend thousands of GP on a magic item should be playing it safe.

Then, the DC of the item: 5 (base) + 3 (minimum CL) + 15 (three missing prerequisites) = DC 23.

As was clarified already, you can only lower the CL on potions, wands, and scrolls. The DC was correct at 36. There was no screwing over the player mechanically, that was all legit.

No, you quoted a passage about scrolls/wands/potions, which have a specific rule. But you should look at the general rules for crafting magic items, because those are the ones that apply to belts:

PRD wrote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


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What is it that you want to know, Ravingdork? Do you want to hear that you did nothing wrong? You did nothing wrong.

The rules are quite easily available to any person to look up and people make mistakes. He took the feat, if he didn't understand it, that's his problem for not taking 5 seconds to look it up online or in the book or ask you. Even if he did make a mistake, that doesn't mean he's blameless, he could still have easily asked you for help or for advice on how he might deal with the consequences of HIS mistake. Instead, he chooses to blame you and immaturely run away from responsibility.

He rolled up the cohort, he gave her the task, he chose what to make. He's not happy with the result, tough. It sucks for him but it's no different from failing a roll any other time, either for a spell save or an attack roll.

If he's threatening to quit, now he's being immature and does not deserve to play a game that requires players to understand that even with moments of juvenile humor, veiled sexual innuendo, and scantily-clad warrior women, facing the consequences of actions and choices (alongside friends or not) is the basis for the fun and real point of the game, even when they hinge on fate, luck, or a die roll.

Being upset is one thing, but the second that a player tries to pull an 'I Quit' move over something they initiated in game, they get no sympathy. It's not your job to hold player's hands and be their guidance counselor, it's your job to be fair and determine the consequences of their actions. This is obviously for all but the most novice of groups and players, because even a novice player in this game should be mature enough to simply ASK a question. Otherwise, they've made the choice to plow ahead beyond their abilities and must maturely deal with the consequences of their choice. That simple show of character is what moves novice players to real players.


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Ravingdork wrote:

One of the players in my Skull and Shackles game recently leveled up to 7, took Leadership, and [he] rolled up a new witch cohort and put her on crafting duty.

His first order of business was to have her make a belt of physical perfection +2 for himself, without any of the requisite spells and with only a +13 Spellcraft modifier.

Later, in between games, I informed him that his new belt hadn't worked out. Fortunately though the witch, being an intelligent spellcaster, checked her work before passing it down to him and (with a high roll, identify, and an aiding familiar) found it to be cursed (-2 to all physical stats).

Saying he is upset is an understatement. He blames me, saying that I should have informed him of the impossibility of crafting such an item beforehand and that, if the witch was so smart, she never would have attempted it in the first place. He's pissed enough to quit the group (that he loves otherwise) over the matter. This is one of our best campaigns to date, and he is one of its biggest fans. I'd hate to lose him over it, but I don't want to give in just because it didn't go his way either--leaving me at something of an impasse.

As far as I know, I followed the rules as they are meant to be followed and have done nothing wrong, but I wanted to check with you to be sure. It just doesn't make sense to me to say that she would know she would fail. If that were true, then no one would ever accidentally craft a cursed item. It's rare enough as it is that it happens. Also, why am I suddenly the bad guy just because he wasn't familiar with his own characters' abilities and limitations?

Heck, he's even playing an evil pirate. He could totally sell it to some poor sap and get his gold back, or use it as a weapon against an enemy.

Hopefully he will cool down enough that we can talk about it meaningfully soon.

This is NOT a scenario. This is actually happening.

If he did not know about the rule I would show it to him in the book, and allow him to retro his action into not crafting the item, but I would not allow him another roll to create the item until he leveled again. I would also inform the gamer that next time he will have to deal with the curse.


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The whole deal with this player smells badly of unintelligent entitlement.He was trying to game the system without knowing the system! Then when he failed he threw a tantrum and threatened to quit the game.

Frankly fixing this issue for the player would teach him what? That its ok to meta-game without even knowing the game and just do whatever because if it goes bad the results can be fixed with a quick tantrum?

Is this the real message you want to send him and your other players?

Look,I know we play with friends and sometimes we just want to have a good time and kickback with our buds.I just don't understand how you can do that with a person who if things go against him,will resort to this type of thing.

It's not just RPG's. If you have a friend that loses at Risk and threatens to walk out if you don't give him back Madagascar,or demands that you do NOT go Fish for number fours because that is all he has left,would be the same thing.

Why are you playing with this person?

If you do decide to keep playing with him you simply HAVE to break him of this or never EVER picks the number four.

My players did the exact same type thing. They set up a magic item creation sweatshop and started to rake in the money. So after a bit of role playing I bombed the shop,killed off all there workers and cost them 6,000,000 gold (you don't pay the Thieves Guild protection and the Wizards Guild for license and taxes and THINGS happen). It ended up leading to the best adventure series of our game and was NOT FAIR....that's what adventures are!


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If I thought the DC was enough to succeed with a "take 10" (as several people have suggested), I would probably be peeved if the GM only told me afterwards that my calculation was incorrect and that I couldn't take back my action. But I'm not sure if that's exactly what's going on in this case.

When I'm GMing, I try to help the players (not necessarily the PCs) in every way possible.


IMO, if the player is rules savvy enough to realize that he can use one feat to get a bunch of free crafting feats AND someone to do the work for him, he should take the time to read magic item creation. If your player doesn't come around, you might remind them that they are effectively abusing the system, and may have gotten what they deserved. Have that person post their POV on the forums here, and see how much sympathy he gets :) Most people on the forums (and the cohort section of Ultimate Campaign) consider this an abuse of the rules and frown upon it.

If it were my game, I probably would have had the witch warn the player that they didn't think they'd have a chance to succeed. However,I don't think the way you handled it was wrong, either.

That all being said, I actually don't have a problem with one of my players using leadership to take a crafting cohort. That cohort usually doesn't then adventure with the party as much which makes me have to modify less of an AP to account for more characters, and one less NPC to have to roleplay a distinct personality for. I also don't allow the players to use the cohort for profit. The cohort will craft items for the party, but it isn't a get rich quick scheme.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:

Did your player ask about the likelihood of success? If so, he should have had a reasonable chance of getting an answer, perhaps with a knowledge arcana roll.

Otherwise it looks like you pretty much let him drive off the cliff. I won't say that it's unfair, much of how this should be handled is really pretty much GM prerogative.

He did not ask, no. Iw ould have happily told him had he done so. Heck, if he bothered to crack the book and look up the DCs, we wouldn't be here.

Ascalaphus wrote:


No, you quoted a passage about scrolls/wands/potions, which have a specific rule. But you should look at the general rules for crafting magic items, because those are the ones that apply...

...which is something we are NOT going to debate here. Make a new thread if you want to switch topics.

Pizza Lord wrote:
What is it that you want to know, Ravingdork? Do you want to hear that you did nothing wrong? You did nothing wrong.

I guess I want to know if you guys think I ambushed him in some way or otherwise wasn't fair/didn't give him a chance.

I've started another thread asking if a character KNOWS they can't succeed on a Spellcraft check prior to attempting it. I'm getting back second-hand information from my other players that, that may be the point of contention: that the witch should have known she couldn't succeed, that she never would have attempted it, and that I should have informed the player of such.

I guess I'm asking if you think that is true. Also, what would you have done in this situation?

Goldenfrog wrote:
The whole deal with this player smells badly of unintelligent entitlement.

I don't know about unintelligent, but I do worry he feels entitled. I'm an extremely generous GM for the most part and I fear I've spoiled him and the others. He also has a history of rages. This is not the first thread involving him, and this is also not the first time he's rage quit IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

For all I know, he's just lying to get a rise out of me again. He's done that before too. (Though I don't think that's the case here.) He's easily the most charismatic person in our group, and is extremely apt at getting his way. Which, again is what I'm worried about: I fear he is simply being manipulative to ensure things go his way. He's got enough talent at it that one can never tell his sincerity.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Does your player read these boards? If so, I wonder how much he may have been thinking along the lines of making crafter bot cohorts as you and others are fond of posting along these lines. He may have well have built up an impression that Pathfinder makes getting an auto success on powerful items extremely easy to pull off. I'm guessing that he probably put in max ranks in spellcraft and knowlege arcana and assumed he was golden at that point.

He was actually doing better than that. By choosing a witch he was making an arcane caster who could function as both a caster bot and a heal/condition removal bot as well.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I agree that you didn't do anything wrong, but you could've done it far better, or at least friendlier.

For one thing, it seems to me a strange split that he had enough control over his cohort to pick her spells, but not enough to roll her crafting checks.

The fact that he didn't finish picking the Witch's spells before asking for her to craft this item sends a pretty clear message: He has little interest in the details of casters/crafting. If you're going to roll dice for his cohort, you probably should've built picked its spells as well.

He basically put out a job on Craiglist "Wanted: Witch who doesn't mind getting her hands dirty. Required skills: Crafting magic items, especially belts of physical perfection."

My preferred ways of handling Leadership is allowing the player to pick an NPC they've met, or make an outline of the sort of character they want, rather than having them build PC #2. It sounds like you kinda share the same thoughts.

And even though that stuff didn't happen, the witch probably could've thought "Man, my pirate boss is giving me a ton of money for this project that I KNOW will flop. I should tell him to hold onto his money so I can research the proper spells first, or things might get unpleasant in our professional relationship."


GMs should think about whatthey're doing before they do it. Are your actions contributing to the groups overall fun? Or are you just reveling in your own power?

Putting aside the issue of whether it’s possible or not, you believed it was not possible. Yet you said nothing. This super smart Witch doesn’t know her own abilities. Apparently she doesn’t even have an INKLING enough to suggest that this might fail.

Players do not know all the rules. Obviously the more you know the better, but they don’t. their characters though definitely often would know things the player does not. The Witch would surely have known “the crafting rules” as she is a trained crafter. You said you “hinted” to the player…why hint? Why not just tell him straight out, that he needs to take Craft related spells in order to Craft? Then if he doesn’t do it it’s a choice and not merely an oversight.

Scenario: You have a narrow hallway with 2 paragraphs worth of description. One sentence in those 2 paragraphs says there’s a hole in the middle of the hallway. After the full 2 paragraph description, there’s a combat. When it’s over the party declares they walk to the end of the hallway.

Would you remind them that there’s a hole there that their characters would plainly be able to see even if the players missed it/forgot, or would you cackle and declare the lead character falls in the hole? If the Paladin’s +3 Holy Greatsword gets disarmed and he doesn’t explicitly tell you he picks it up after combat, do you declare that the Paladin forgot to do so and it’s still back in the dungeon? Do you spring this on him the next time combat starts?

If you do anything other than remind your players about the hole or allow the Pally to have silently retrieved his sword 3 hours back, that’s not good GMing IMO.

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