These are the voyagers... no, sorry these are the stat arrays that I intend to offer my players in an up-coming game...
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14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 11 --[23 pts.]
15, 15, 15, 11, 10, 9 --[21 pts.]
16, 16, 11, 10, 10, 8 --[19 pts.]
18, 13, 11, 10, 8, 8 --[17 pts.]
Do they look ok, tight, too good??
Why aren't they all the same point value?
To encourage even stats over min/max ones. But remember the AP I'm running is designed for 15 point buy, so they're all generous with that in mind.
They look fine maybe a tad on the strong side but not unbalanced.
--=--=--
Zhayne, he is probably encouraging people to keep away from the massive single stat.
eeep... ninja-ed.
Well, not making them equal point values inherently makes this unfair in my mind.
Mostly, I'm seeing the bottom one for any wizards or fighters, the second-from-bottom for caster that need two stats (like clerics for channel) ... and the other two not being used at all.
If your AP is designed for 15 point buy, why not ... just do that?
Well, not making them equal point values inherently makes this unfair in my mind.
Mostly, I'm seeing the bottom one for any wizards or fighters, the second-from-bottom for caster that need two stats (like clerics for channel) ... and the other two not being used at all.
If your AP is designed for 15 point buy, why not ... just do that?
Because I'm trying something different, and want some general feedback, like yours, on the subject.
I think the top array looks a better option for a Paladin, Monk etc.
yep monks hate low point buy, but wizards are not nearly as bothered.
The top array is TERRIBLE for a Paladin or Monk.
Said Monk would have:
Terrible damage (only 14 Str).
Terrible AC (only 14 Dex and Wis, so he's got like 14 AC at first level that scales extremely poorly).
Average HP
Well he's used up all his 14s at least.
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yep monks hate low point buy, but wizards are not nearly as bothered.
Which is why I doubt the top two would be used. This just amplifies the innate class imbalance in the system. Nobody will WANT to play a Monk, Paladin, or other seriously MAD class, even moreso than usual.
Here's a weird idea. Have all the classes been tiered or ranked in PF yet? If so, you could make a gradiated point buy ... low tier/rank classes get more points, higher tier/rank classes get less.
I prefer one of the top two if I had to choose those or
16, 14, 14, 12, 11 10-->23, and it gives one +3 stat, with no penalties.
15, 15, 14, 12, 10 10-->21. Most people wont spend their 4th level bumps on the 4th or 5th most important stat so making it an odd number is normally not a factor.
yep monks hate low point buy, but wizards are not nearly as bothered.Which is why I doubt the top two would be used. This just amplifies the innate class imbalance in the system. Nobody will WANT to play a Monk, Paladin, or other seriously MAD class, even moreso than usual.
Here's a weird idea. Have all the classes been tiered or ranked in PF yet? If so, you could make a gradiated point buy ... low tier/rank classes get more points, higher tier/rank classes get less.
They have been tiered, but what has been noticed is that player skill is often more of a factor than the class when it comes to how a character performs in a game so it is better to just give everyone the same stats.
Yeah, this fits under a 'player's rights' thing for me. If he wants to have uneven stats, let him. Odds are that dump stat is going to bite him in the butt eventually one way or the other.
Why aren't they all the same point value?
Because the point value system isn't perfect; it under-values "flat" arrays that lack any high scores. The first two arrays are weaker than the second two. Generally speaking any array without a +3 to start is going to be noticably less potent.
As for the absolute power, I'm not sure what you're going for. These seem to hoover around the 15-point-buy value range in terms of their utility.
If he wants to have uneven stats, let him.
Arrays 3 and 4 do offer un-even stats distributions. I think the point here is the other way around; to give a realistic option for players who want to have even stats (which, under standard point buy rules, just leaves you very weak).
The top array is TERRIBLE for a Paladin or Monk.
Said Monk would have:
Terrible damage (only 14 Str).
Terrible AC (only 14 Dex and Wis, so he's got like 14 AC at first level that scales extremely poorly).
Average HPWell he's used up all his 14s at least.
The monk would have racials to add to make 2 of those 14's sixteens. Two 16's and 2 14's isn't a bad place to start for a Monk imo.
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They have been tiered, but what has been noticed is that player skill is often more of a factor than the class when it comes to how a character performs in a game so it is better to just give everyone the same stats.yep monks hate low point buy, but wizards are not nearly as bothered.Which is why I doubt the top two would be used. This just amplifies the innate class imbalance in the system. Nobody will WANT to play a Monk, Paladin, or other seriously MAD class, even moreso than usual.
Here's a weird idea. Have all the classes been tiered or ranked in PF yet? If so, you could make a gradiated point buy ... low tier/rank classes get more points, higher tier/rank classes get less.
Offering only one array would make mad classes even more difficult unless your one array is uber.
Wouldn't you prefer a choice?
Your assumption on race looks like it needs a very specific pick. Is this based on custom options? I ask since outside of dwarves and humans that abandon their extra feat, there are only a few oddball options for race that add to 2 of the main monk stats (STR, DEX, CON, WIS) without subtracting from one of the others. Not complete, but I see Oreads, Hobgoblins, Vanaras, a couple of tiefling and aasimir variants, and one variant heritage of dhampirs that appears to be based in Hindu legends (which I guess would be appropriate for a monk). Paladins have an easier time though, since the noncore races all seem to favor CHA.
I do like the concept though. Point buys, especially low point buys, are harsh on MAD characters. Giving the option for an array with higher point value, but lesser scores over all, would help ease some of the burden while remaining fair.
I admit that Dwarf did come to mind,:-)
They have been tiered, but what has been noticed is that player skill is often more of a factor than the class when it comes to how a character performs in a game so it is better to just give everyone the same stats.yep monks hate low point buy, but wizards are not nearly as bothered.Which is why I doubt the top two would be used. This just amplifies the innate class imbalance in the system. Nobody will WANT to play a Monk, Paladin, or other seriously MAD class, even moreso than usual.
Here's a weird idea. Have all the classes been tiered or ranked in PF yet? If so, you could make a gradiated point buy ... low tier/rank classes get more points, higher tier/rank classes get less.
Offering only one array would make mad classes even more difficult unless your one array is uber.
Wouldn't you prefer a choice?
The person I responded was suggesting that the classes get a weaker or stronger array based on their tier. That is different than allowing players to choose their own array.
edit:Now that you see my post was misread "Ssyvan", are you sure you still want to like that post?
If you're going to do this, you should use the same points across the board, give or take a point.
18, 14, 10, 10, 10, 8 (20 pts)
16, 16, 12, 10, 10, 8 (20 pts)
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (20 pts)
14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 11 (20 pts)
Now, all of them are the same points, all are even (other than the last one). All are usable, and no matter which one you pick you aren't getting more or less than the other guy.
I'm all for arrays, but make them equal. Alternatively, just have your players do point buy, but set a cap and a minimum on stats. If you don't want min-maxers, tell people they can't drop below 9 or 8, and they can only buy up to 16.
I didn't even look at point buy equivalents, but I offered my players 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.
It lets me stick them with one area they're not gifted in, while allowing them to be average-heroic in all other areas. I think it works pretty well.
If you're going to do this, you should use the same points across the board, give or take a point.
18, 14, 10, 10, 10, 8 (20 pts)
16, 16, 12, 10, 10, 8 (20 pts)
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (20 pts)
14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 11 (20 pts)
That third one is actually rather good for a monk...especially if you go dwarf...hehe.
Dont forget Garuda-Blooded Aasimar +2 to both dex and wis, no penalties.
The problem is that low stats do nothing. There's really no serious difference between 8 and 12. Even 14 barely matters.
14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 11 --[23 pts.]
15, 15, 15, 11, 10, 9 --[21 pts.]
16, 16, 11, 10, 10, 8 --[19 pts.]
18, 13, 11, 10, 8, 8 --[17 pts.]
As such, the first two arrays are irrelevant.
The fourth array is the best (for all pure casters) and the third is just barely behind (for clerics/oracles and melee types), but both will be frustrating, because, while your actual contribution to the party won't be weaker by having all those 8s and 10s, you're going to feel weak and sucky when you see all those +0s and -1s (in albeit irrelevant places).
You will not see anyone playing classes like Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Alchemists, Magi (that don't Dervish Dance), Inquisitors, Bards (unless they're pure support caster Bards), non-pure caster Druids, etc., etc. There's just no way to place your stats.
I personally prefer arrays, but I give "overpowered" arrays by point buy standards, even though I guarantee the characters in my game are not actually more powerful than the ones in your game will be. The main difference is that my game has a wider variety of classes, and yours is probably going to have Fighter/Barbarian, Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch, and Cleric/Oracles only, unless your players are gluttons for punishment.
For the record, I gave, as options:
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10
or
16, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10
Predictably, the Rogue and Earthbreaker wielding Ranger took the first one, and the Monk (who died hilariously when the Rogue sneak attacked him while Confused), Inquisitor, Oracle of Life, and Archer Summoner took the second.
In the game I'm PCing, the rules were 32 point buy with no stat below a 10 allowed, and we were not able to just buy two 18s and be done with it. I thought that worked out pretty damn well, too.
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Hmm.
Maybe relevant, maybe not, but you might find it an interesting alternative.
I use a Card-Based System to let players generate their own array. For instance...
12 Cards:
9 x2
8 x2
7 x2
6 x2
5 x2
4 x2
You shuffle and have them draw. If you total all of their stats they add up to 78, no matter what you draw. They'll have no stats below 8, and no stats above 18.
You get characters whose average stat is 13 though. So a bit higher powered than 15 point-buy, to be sure.
I've also played with giving less high cards and more low cards, having them generate a couple arrays and pick one, and putting in a joker (Joker doubles whatever it's drawn with)
The game with the Joker had something like this for cards:
9 x1
8 x1
7 x1
6 x3
5 x3
4 x2
J x1
which gives you 65 + a joker, giving you a slightly uneven, but still close in power level: 69-74 points, and average stats of 11.5 - 12.3.
If you want them even, you simply don't include the joker, and put them all in actual numbers.
I like that it can be tailored to a specific campaign power level while still being random. It's not balanced the same way that the point buy system is, because it doesn't assign exponentially higher value to higher stats. +1dex adds 1 to your total, regardless of how high it is, and you can determine your maximums and minimums just by changing which cards you let them draw.
I personally prefer it to point buy.
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Hmm. one route you could do is you give a flat number of bonuses, ignoring the actual scores, kindof like True20 does, and assume they all get even numbers.
You could give a different number of roll bonus points based on who is more MAD, (Monks would get the most points, wizards, less.) and then you just cap the maximum bonus they can give to one ability score at +4.
I suppose this is a more flexible way of doing arrays, but still having them be arrays.
taking mplindustries arrays as examples:
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10 would give (+11) Bonus spread throughout 6 stats for a non MAD class.
16, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10 would give (+12) Bonus Spread throughout 6 stats.
I would probably give smaller bonus pools overall.
+10 for non-MAD classes, +11 for MAD classes, and then let them bump any two attributes (not the 18) up to the odd number, and let them take one stat at -1 to get an extra +1 to put in another stat. Only one stat can be at +4, and at least three(for the MAD classes, 4 for non-MAD) of them have to start at +2 or less
So they could (non-MAD) get at most minmaxed:
18 17 15 14 10 8
+4 +3 +2 +2 +0 -1 = 10
and for MAD Classes
18 17 17 14 10 8
+4 +3 +3 +2 +0 -1 = 11
That to me seems reasonable as a point-buy system, and flexible, though you could restrict it further, or randomize what bonuses they get to put where.
I think the important part to get down is that you want to have more points for MAD classes, and less points for non-mad classes.
You will not see anyone playing classes like Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Alchemists, Magi (that don't Dervish Dance), Inquisitors, Bards (unless they're pure support caster Bards), non-pure caster Druids, etc., etc. There's just no way to place your stats.
Rubbish.
They are better than 15 point buy. 15 is the standard for the AP's.
You are obviously catering for a group of power-gamers which although may be fine for you, it would not be fine for me. The whole point is to reward the non-min/max-ers.
Between now and the start of the game I will probably adjust the arrays a little but I'm here of feedback and I appreciate your imput but giving players 37 point buy isn't the answer in my case.
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Rubbish.
They are better than 15 point buy. 15 is the standard for the AP's.
If you see a wide diversity of classes with 15 point buy, then you see a bunch of rubbish characters on a regular basis. Those hybrids all need multiple good stats to compete with the SAD classes (mostly full casters) or the dual-stat classes (basic melee and divine casters).
You're only mentioning one aspect of what the APs are designed for. They are made for four characters with 15 Point Buy...
...with one playing a Fighter, one a Cleric, one a Wizard, and one a Rogue, and while the characters have lowish stats, the players are expected to be "optimized" when it comes to how well versed they are in D&D. They damn well better know plenty about what gear to take (the golf-bag of weapons with different damage types and special materials), as well as good utility scrolls and wands to have (just in case an extremely specific situation requires a typically useless spell), they need to be properly paranoid about traps in "D&D trap" situations (i.e. at times when traps would not be reasonable to expect in real life or in any other RPG ever), have contingencies for swarms, know proper in combat tactics, etc., etc.
You are obviously catering for a group of power-gamers which although may be fine for you, it would not be fine for me. The whole point is to reward the non-min/max-ers.
It was actually my preference. None of the PCs had ever played Pathfinder before, and only 2 of the 5 had even ever played any version of D&D. I made all the characters--they had no idea how and weren't especially interested.
Even still, they've been getting their butts kicked in Serpent Skull--in 20 years of running D&D, I've never had a single PC death (in other RPGs, sure, but not D&D), and in this game so far, I've had two.
Anyway, your arrays are not rewarding non-min-maxers. You're encouraging min-maxing since they have to take the low point buy arrays to be useful, and you're tricking the non-min-maxers by giving them better point buys that are actually ultimately worse arrays.
Between now and the start of the game I will probably adjust the arrays a little but I'm here of feedback and I appreciate your imput but giving players 37 point buy isn't the answer in my case.
It doesn't have to be the answer, but I think it's worth taking a serious look at the difference between a character built with your arrays and mine. The difference might be a +1 or +2 to a weak save, maybe some random junk skills my guys are barely better at--the overall contribution to the group remains the same, because you contribute mainly with your best stat (or two). The higher arrays make more concepts viable, however, and make the PCs feel more like people with diversified abilities instead of, say, Fighters who can Climb, Swim, and politely sit on their hands when any other skill is called for.
As a DM, I ask my players to use an "standard+5" array.
It's basically a 20 point buy but they start with the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,08) and increase their stats with 5 extra points.
Usually, they go with 16,14,14,12,10,08 (as mdt's suggestion) or 16,15,13,12,10,08.
It works quite well at my table.
I don't, unfortunately, have the time to change every encounter in the game to compensate for giving the players more points than the AP was designed to have.
I take on board that my top array is maybe a little to flat for Monk type classes. It's why I came here for feedback. However I'm not going to give out uber array's so that I end up with yet more work. I have a 5 month old and a 3 year old that take up the majority of my free time - make that all of my time! I also have a very small pool of players.
I think I'll look at the array's and adjust them to cover the issues you guys have highlighted. I'll post the new ones later.
New array's.
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15, 15, 14, 14, 11, 8
16, 15, 15, 10, 9, 8
17, 16, 10, 10, 8, 8
18, 14, 10, 9, 8, 8
Better?
I've kept the same points per array but adjusted them to enable better options for mad classes.
True, I have considered a point buy system with 16 as the highest you can buy but the problem with that is that the mad classes still get a pretty raw deal even with 20 points.
If they dump 2 stats down to 7 to give 28 points to spend they still struggle to have 4 good stats.
The AP assumes 15 point buy and then the mad classes really get sunk.
If I level the points per array to something like this..
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15, 15, 14, 14, 11, 8
16, 15, 15, 11, 10, 8
17, 16, 13, 11, 8, 8
18, 14, 14, 10, 8, 8
...am I being too generous?
I prefer your original arrays. I hate the "dump stat" thing so many Min/maxers do to eke out an addl 5% DPR at the cost of being a moronic , social outcast with the self-esteeem of a wet dishrag.
Here's what I did. A 20 pt buy with no points back for dumping and no starting stat over 18. *OR* a straight 15 pt buy.
It was also noted there would be bonuses from tiem to tiem for social skills.
How about these:
15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 --[22 pts.] For MAD PC's. Option here is to convert the 12 to a 13 and the 10 to a 9. There's a 15 to give them a fun jump @ 4th level.
16, 15, 13, 10, 10, 9= 21 pts- for those classes that need two decent stats.
17, 14, 12, 10, 10, 9= 20 pts, for SAD classes.
Wraithstrike gives some good arrays also.
MPL, you say his arrays are "unplayable" for many classes, but your arrays are both 37 points. You dont need 37 points to play a class. Not even a Monk.
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Hmm. Okay.
As people have mentioned, while things were "designed" for 15 point buy, Paizo does officially champion 20 point buy. 15 Point buy basically demands some serious minmaxing in my opinion.
Assuming you want a max of 16 before racials, I would consider this:
Multi Ability Dependent Classes have a hard time in comparison to Single Ability Dependent or Dual Ability Dependent Classes.
What I would do to determine if the arrays are good, is set up the standard array for a single ability dependent class, like wizard.
But assuming you're using 15 Point buy as your starting point:
So let's say for SAD Classes. You could come up with a two of those that you're okay with, with about that much specialization; but use these restrictions: Same number of points, no more than one 16, no more than one 8. 16 13 12 12 10 8 (15 Points)
For your Dual-Ability Dependent Classes Give them a bit better for arrays or point-buys. 16 15 13 12 10 8 (or 20 Points)
And for your Multi-Ability Dependent Classes (Like Monks) give them the best point-buy for their arrays. 16 16 14 12 10 8 (25 points)
Which list of arrays they can choose from would depend on which class they pick at level 1. If they multiclass later, and become more MAD, you can bump up their array to match the MAD players, and I don't think it would become unfair.
You will want to have 3 lists of classes, which tell you which array to give them.
Then you either decide on a build-by build or class by class basis which tier the character belongs in. A wizard who uses int for pretty much everything is Single-Ability Dependent build, a Wizard who is all about ranged touch attacks int+dex is arguably Dual-Ability Dependent. Monks are always Multi-Ability Dependent.
A fighter is dual (Str+Dex or Str+Con). A Ranger is probably Multi: Str, Dex, Wis.
MPL, you say his arrays are "unplayable" for many classes, but your arrays are both 37 points. You dont need 37 points to play a class. Not even a Monk.
In all seriousness, take a look at the difference between a character made with his arrays vs. mine vs. one with point buy (all pre-racial).
Let's try a Wizard.
With my array, he's got Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 12
With his array, the wizard has Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
With 15 point buy, the wizard has Str 7, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 7
What are the real differences? All cast spells with the exact same ability. My game's wizard has +1 HP per level, +1 to Fort and Will, and +1 or +2 to a long list of skills the Wizard probably won't ever take in the first place. The point buy wizard needs the fighter to carry his stuff for him sooner, but that's about it.
How about a Fighter?
Mine: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
His: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
15 PB: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7
What are the differences here? Again all are equally good in a fight. My fighter has +1 HP per level, +1 Fort and Will, and actually might get some skill points--or at least he's not penalized on half the list. That's kind of it.
Having higher numbers in stats that your class doesn't give a crap about does nothing to change the challenge of an AP or whatever else. It just makes your character more well rounded--generally with more skills, fewer porters, or the ability to actually open their mouth in social situations without being more hindrance than help.
The problem, though, is that a Fighter with 12 Wisdom isn't really significantly weaker than a Fighter with 18 Wisdom, but an Inquisitor with 12 Wisdom is a joke next to one with an 18 Wisdom. More importantly, though, an Inquisitor with 18 Strength and 12 Wisdom is not as useful as a Fighter with the same stats.
Classes are "balanced" against each other assuming all a class's primary stats will have the same score. An Inquisitor with a two-hander needs Str X and Wis X, while a Fighter just needs Str X (both care about Dex and Con to similar degrees). A Magus needs Str X and Int X while a Wizard just needs Int X. None of the multi-stat classes get any kind of a buff from having more stats to care about, it's all pure penalty.
If playing a full caster, I'd rather have the 15 point buy.
17 14 14 10 7 7
17 14 13 12 7 7
17 12 12 12 8 8
I am sure I could come up with more 15s I'd rather have.
For what it's worth, I'm running a group of my family through an AP now. Only one of them has an 18 in their character's primary stat. They're doing fine.
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Hmm. MPL's approach would also work.
He's right. His approach to arrays won't really make your character more powerful in what your class does, just make you suck less at the things you're not innately good at.
However, in his approach, Single attribute classes get a bunch of points they can choose to spread around for background skills, and MAD Classes don't get to choose where they go without hindering themselves.
My approach, with 3 tiers of arrays which you determine which one they get access to based on need, will result in MAD classes being on the same playing field for their class abilities as non MAD, but they will be marginally better at skills and saves than single-stat classes.
You could totally take MPL's approach though, and do it with lower maximums. You want a lower-powered game? Make the maximums 16, and give appropriately lower points.
MPL Listed this, which I feel would be fine in a typical game, where players are trying to have an 18 in their prime stat, It may make them overly competent though.
He gave:
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10 (37)
16, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10 (37)
Personally, I think having one stat below 10 isn't a bad thing, and I think it's worth having a bit lower stats if you want to avoid it.
16 14 14 13 12 10 (25)
16 16 14 12 10 08 (25)
It's a little closer to the point buy you wanted, if you want them all to have the same point buy, I would base it on the 25 point buy I mentioned above. Capping them at 16 should keep the power level from getting too high.
You asked about these arrays being too generous:
15, 15, 14, 14, 11, 08 (23)
16, 15, 15, 11, 10, 08 (23)
17, 16, 13, 11, 08, 08 (23)
18, 14, 14, 10, 08, 08 (23)
I think of the arrays you gave, I would take the second array for everything. The bottom two are so minmaxed I couldn't deal with that many glaring weaknesses. The top one has no scores above a +2.
If you're dead set on a 23 point array, and think 25 is too much, and you want them to have the same point buy cost (I don't think that's necessary, as mentioned above, I'd be okay with tiered arrays for different builds), I'd try something like this:
16 15 14 13 10 08 (23)
16 15 15 11 10 08 (23)
16 16 14 10 10 08 (23)
16 14 13 13 12 10 (23)
I would outright cap the ability scores at 16 and a single 8 if you want to avoid minmaxing, at which point you would safely give them point buy, or give them some decent arrays.
I would advise 25 point buy-based arrays though, with a minimum of 8 (and only 1 of those) and a maximum of 16. As MDL pointed out, if you can't raise your primary stat further, you're not upping the power level at all, just allowing the character to be more rounded without punishing them for it. If you cap the attributes at 16 before racials, you can give them more rounded characters with lower point totals, without one of the players feeling like they're lagging behind the others because they tried not to minmax.