I, for one, am somewhat glad at their ability to limit themselves like that. One of the big things that I dislike about 3.5 is that there are so many Classes and PrCs which generally fill the same design space. I think Paizo's found a good design with archetypes, so there's less digging through books just to make sure you'd exhausted all options. The only couple things that I think would make good design space would be a Swashbuckler class (Could be done as a fighter archetype, but I think it would need more than just that; the free-hand fighter tried at that, but didn't quite meet it), and options for Druidic alternatives, like a Spontaneous Druid and a Druidic bard, to match the Oracle and Inquisitor for Clerics. Apart from that, I think I'm good as far as classes are concerned; I'm of the camp that believes homebrew and third-parties can fill the rest, if needed.
I would love an APG 2 and one day an ARG 2.
I really don't like the use of "Ultimate" for any of these books and wish they would stop using it.
There certainly wouldn't be a point in making a pathfinder version of the XPH. Which would be 98% the same as the already existing Psionics Unleashed and Ultimate Psionics, which I think is going to be releases soon.
And by now, everyone who wants XPH style psionic already has that book.A new psionic system would have to offer something dreastically different, at which point it isn't really psionics anymore.
Yeah I agree, looking at the Dremscarred page it would suggest that the title, Ultimate Campaign in pretty much the same style writing, the fact the cover is by Wayne Reynolds, its hardback and colour and due to be released later that Paizo have no designs to produce any kind of Psionics book. The similarites suggest to me that Paizo pretty much sanction this as there preferred book on the subject. Maybe they may produce a player or campaign guide that may give gudelines on Innersea specific Psionics but I doubt it somehow. But I could be wrong who knows
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There certainly wouldn't be a point in making a pathfinder version of the XPH. Which would be 98% the same as the already existing Psionics Unleashed and Ultimate Psionics, which I think is going to be releases soon.
And by now, everyone who wants XPH style psionic already has that book.A new psionic system would have to offer something dreastically different, at which point it isn't really psionics anymore.
Yeah I agree, looking at the Dremscarred page it would suggest that the title, Ultimate Campaign in pretty much the same style writing, the fact the cover is by Wayne Reynolds, its hardback and colour and due to be released later that Paizo have no designs to produce any kind of Psionics book. The similarites suggest to me that Paizo pretty much sanction this as there preferred book on the subject. Maybe they may produce a player or campaign guide that may give gudelines on Innersea specific Psionics but I doubt it somehow. But I could be wrong who knows
I'd counter your stylistic similarity to a Paizo book with the company's Creative Director saying effectively 'we'd love to do a Paionic book, we'd do it different to XPH/DSP, because we don't like the mechanics being so off anything else in the basic system, but for fans of that that's great.'
James has in several places said that they're not going to adopt the DSP version of Psionics for Golarion.
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With Ultimate Campaign out, they've shown that there is still room for rules that change the way the game is played, instead of adding more combat options. I'm glad to see there was little in the way of more feats (sans story feats), spells, and magic items while still adding new and interesting rules to the table. It's one of the reasons why I liked the alternate rules in UM and UCom and I kinda wish they were in here instead. I hope to see more books like that. And more Bestiaries/NPC Codices.
Psionics that Paizo will not use has incredibly diminished value to me.
So telling me to use DSP's products does not really dissuade me from wanting Paizo's version of psychic powers and abilities. There is definitely room for both.
first the mythic, then the b@&*+es
Ultimate Equestria, I would be game for that;)
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I'd heard they nabbed a license and were going to finally make Ultimate Equestria.
That's not the license I want them to be granted from Hasbro...
But it would still be awesome. ;)
Ultimate Errata: it will contain all the rules tweeks they ever wanted to make, plus all the rules clarifications, changes, redefinitions, and interpretations [YOUR NAME HERE] always wanted, all in one handy volume with a easy-to-use index, so you can take it to any gaming session and quickly find the information that you need at any given time.
Ultimate Errata: it will contain all the rules tweeks they ever wanted to make, plus all the rules clarifications, changes, redefinitions, and interpretations [YOUR NAME HERE] always wanted, all in one handy volume with a easy-to-use index, so you can take it to any gaming session and quickly find the information that you need at any given time.
You know, I'd love them to print-publish the FAQ, and then see how many Pathfinder players knew the FAQ existed before that happened. ;)
Something with alternate rules systems though would be interesting--not just options, but alternate systems for hit points, DR, etc.
I just really want to see real support for epic play, and epic handbook. Not just "more powerful low level characters" like mythic.
Me too but I really don't believe there will be epic rules.
I feel like errata is better suited for online format--an "ultimate errata" book would be sorta redundant once we started getting errata to ultimate errata:)
That would come a year or two later: The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Errata: Electric Boogaloo
I just really want to see real support for epic play, and epic handbook. Not just "more powerful low level characters" like mythic.
Yeah, it appears they want to avoid that, though.
Probably in no small part because 1) it's really hard to pull off and 2) it's such a niche, even for the people who want it, they only play it occasionally, and so many campaigns die before they even get to 15th level, meaning that publishers have a hard time justifying even high-level non-epic material (which is one reason the APs, which used to proceed all the way to 20th level, now tend to end ~15th-17th level, with the occasional exception, yes).
As far as I can tell (as an outsider), the Mythic rules are their way to bridge the gap; epic things available even at non-epic levels, thus more suited to a broad array of gamers. But even Mythic seems to have a lot of skeptics. . .
I like the idea of Ultimte Intrigue. The SW Saga book on nobles was one of my favorites in the D20 SWs.
Ultimate Ultimate
The book of rules for everything! Psychic, planar, monsters, classes, races, dreamlands, skills, feats, magic, religion, spells, terrain, hazards, traps, haunts, evolutions, ...
Problem is it will weigh 50 lbs, cost $500, and isn't coming out until 2025.
:D
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I feel like errata is better suited for online format--an "ultimate errata" book would be sorta redundant once we started getting errata to ultimate errata:)That would come a year or two later: The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Errata: Electric Boogaloo
I just really want to see real support for epic play, and epic handbook. Not just "more powerful low level characters" like mythic.Yeah, it appears they want to avoid that, though.
Probably in no small part because 1) it's really hard to pull off and 2) it's such a niche, even for the people who want it, they only play it occasionally, and so many campaigns die before they even get to 15th level, meaning that publishers have a hard time justifying even high-level non-epic material (which is one reason the APs, which used to proceed all the way to 20th level, now tend to end ~15th-17th level, with the occasional exception, yes).
As far as I can tell (as an outsider), the Mythic rules are their way to bridge the gap; epic things available even at non-epic levels, thus more suited to a broad array of gamers. But even Mythic seems to have a lot of skeptics. . .
For what it's worth, I ran a playtest during the Mythic Playtest time of 20th level characters, layering mythic on top of them as a means of leveling in stead of normal leveling or epic leveling. It was a one shot so we didn't get a chance to see how it felt over a long haul, but it seemed to work fairly well. Some of the mythic abilities are less impressive layered over an already high level character, but others complimented high level characters already and seemed to round out and broaden their power without getting ridiculously scaled UP in the way that leveling past 20 can seem to do. I can't change people's minds about their core feelings about mythic, but I can with a limited degree of experience under my belt, say that it does work for high level play, and can work as an alternative for leveling in the "epic" fashion.
Ultimately, though, the idea that "not many people like epic play" is the result of a viscous cycle. People who wanted epic power in 3E either homebrewed a lot of new feats/items/classes/monsters, due to the extreme lack of support, or they played another system. Right now, pathfinder doesn't support epic play, so people who want high powered games are likely to play other systems. That leads to Paizo hearing from their fan-base that their regular PF players want low-powered games, so they...
I totally agree with you, great part of the problem of 'few' people looking for high level games is because of the lack of support. I think that is one of the reason because Immortals Handbook was/is so popular, even if is among a little group.
Can you point me some system that actually support high level styles?
Ultimately, though, the idea that "not many people like epic play" is the result of a viscous cycle. People who wanted epic power in 3E either homebrewed a lot of new feats/items/classes/monsters, due to the extreme lack of support, or they played another system. Right now, pathfinder doesn't support epic play, so people who want high powered games are likely to play other systems. That leads to Paizo hearing from their fan-base that their regular PF players want low-powered games, so they...I totally agree with you, great part of the problem of 'few' people looking for high level games is because of the lack of support. I think that is one of the reason because Immortals Handbook was/is so popular, even if is among a little group.
Can you point me some system that actually support high level styles?
Exalted scratches that itch for me.
Honestly I think that Mythic will be able to scratch the epic itch to a point, going so far as allowing you to fight demigods and demon lords. Not quite deity level, but still, I think Mythic rules will be an interesting alternative to Epic gaming. At least for me, I see it as a good replacement since the math is, overall, easier to handle. And it will have a great deal of support, with a full rulebook, Adventure Path, Player's Companion, Campaign Setting, and monsters in the Bestiary 4. And whose to say that they don't end up with a Mythic Codex in the future :)
And who knows. If Mythic is well received, and enough people want it, maybe there will be rules for fighting deities.
Yeah, the vicious cycle around high-level play makes me sad.
It was a problem in the 3.0/3.5e times, and PF hasn't really fixed it.
I haven't had the same issues other people have had with higher level gaming in Pathfinder. It's just definitely a different style of gaming and people just have to be prepared for it. I certainly prefer leveling organically that high, as opposed to starting there.
3.0 already did a lot of the work developing epic rules--
even if all they did was update the ELH to pathfinder rules, and published it as a PDF (so they wouldn't need to worry about printing costs), I'd greatly appreciate it. I've gotten more use out of the ELH than out of any other single supplement in the last 10 years.
Ultimately, though, the idea that "not many people like epic play" is the result of a viscous cycle. People who wanted epic power in 3E either homebrewed a lot of new feats/items/classes/monsters, due to the extreme lack of support, or they played another system. Right now, pathfinder doesn't support epic play, so people who want high powered games are likely to play other systems. That leads to Paizo hearing from their fan-base that their regular PF players want low-powered games, so they don't support high-powered play, so more people who like high-powered play stop using pathfinder, etc.
Problem is that the expense of producing something, like a rulebook, isn't really in the printing, it's the development. And time spent on a PDF only release is time that can't be spent on other products.
I think Mythic will actually work well as a Epic replacement. Maybe you won't get quite so powerful, but ultimately your party will be powerful enough to take on Cthulhu and Orcus. The only threats that are more powerful are perhaps Gods, and that is it.
Yeah, the vicious cycle around high-level play makes me sad.
It was a problem in the 3.0/3.5e times, and PF hasn't really fixed it.
Part of the problem is also that they say "high level stuff" doesn't sell.
Because Mythic WILL support powerful play, even if from low to high level, if that sells well, it may help lead the way.
I remember a developer telling me that if I wanted to see more high level stuff, that I should buy high level modules. I remember at the time, there were very few--and the one they then put out to support super high levels was the one where everybody travels goes to the moon or something, and I don't want to run a space adventure. :( It really annoyed me they picked such a weird and non traditional theme for the next high level story.
The other part of the "vicious cycle" is that because there AREN'T a lot of high level modules and adventures, GMs who want to run high level play design their own adventures (which is what I did when I ran my 2 year campaign that went from 14-19th level). And then because GMs of high level games design their own adventures, they're not buying books, and/or it becomes harder and harder to shoehorn in the few actual modules that get published because inevitably their own stories take a different turn.
3.0 already did a lot of the work developing epic rules--
even if all they did was update the ELH to pathfinder rules, and published it as a PDF (so they wouldn't need to worry about printing costs), I'd greatly appreciate it. I've gotten more use out of the ELH than out of any other single supplement in the last 10 years.
I like the Epic Level Handbook and I've gotten a fair amount of enjoyment from it, but, for better or worse, one of the lessons designers seem to have learned from its publication is that supporting that level of play isn't rewarded by enough fan response to merit them devoting design effort to (much less return on $ investment).
Thus the tendency to focus on things that have wider appeal among the game's fanbase; if they ever get to Epic Level stuff, it will be after they've done almost everything else they can think of.
Ultimately, though, the idea that "not many people like epic play" is the result of a viscous cycle.
That might be true, I'd like to think it is. But the problem from a game designer's standpoint is that every time they've tested the theory, well they seem to conclude the above based on available evidence.
For example, I'd love to see APs return consistently to running from 1st to 20th level (even if that meant having to add a 7th volume for each AP), but the general "audience feedback" as it were seems to have told them that however well written/done the adventure for those last high levels might be, it's too problematic to play (either because campaigns just don't last that long, or because people think gameplay breaks down at those levels; in fact, many people think things break down by 15th level, but are willing to play out the rest of an AP, as long as it's winding down).
Again, though, personally I'm with you and I'd snap up a Pathfinder Epic, if only just to see what they come up with.
If it comes out in 2025, it won't weigh 50 lbs, because it will be an E-Book:)Ultimate Ultimate
The book of rules for everything! Psychic, planar, monsters, classes, races, dreamlands, skills, feats, magic, religion, spells, terrain, hazards, traps, haunts, evolutions, ...
Problem is it will weigh 50 lbs, cost $500, and isn't coming out until 2025.
:D
Touché :P
My understanding also as to why Epic is not being supported is that the math starts breaking down at those levels. I believe that has been listed as another main reason they are doing mythic, which lets you kind of side step that issue.
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My understanding also as to why Epic is not being supported is that the math starts breaking down at those levels. I believe that has been listed as another main reason they are doing mythic, which lets you kind of side step that issue.
Yep. Continuing to level forces power increases in a sort of linear fashion, and the continued rate of increase starts to get really wonky. Mind, I've run a 20th level game -- it works better than a lot of people claim it does -- but I can't see things going much higher without stuff starting to breakdown (or everyone autosucceeds at everything except on attack rolls).
Mythic rules BROADEN the power base in a way that increases power, just not on the same linear line as leveling. But the other thing that works well for high level play is that you increase in tier based on deeds and heroic accomplishments more than simply earning XP, which makes a lot more sense for an "epic" character who can kill hordes of low level creatures and barely see a change in their experience level. Your power increase is story based--and can be faster than XP leveling at that point, or if it's slower, it feels more organic.
Honestly, I think the dislike for mythic is in part that saying "I'm a tier 1 champion level 20 fighter" doesn't sound as satisfying as "I'm a 23rd level fighter" for those for whom big numbers mean everything. There are other valid concerns as well, but I think that's honestly part of it. And that's not a judgement against people who want to see "level 40" on their character sheet. But people who want that that badly can probably adapt the epic rules pretty well on their own.
Anyway, the book's not out yet so we'll see how it feels when we get the final product. The playtest was a taste, and hopefully they took a lot of feedback and improved on the idea.
Sorry for derailing, sort of.
Back to wishes for books, talking again of an "Advanced GMG," would love some specific advice for designing high level and powerful (mythic) adventures. Maybe that'll be in mythic but not sure.
Well, with the announced hardcovers for the first 3rd of next year being the Pathfinder RPG Strategy Guide and the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Inner Sea Gods, I noticed something: neither of the two hardcovers announced are to be released at GenCon. This is a standard publishing tactic for Paizo, so I suspect a very big book will be coming for that event.
Let the speculation continue apace!
My understanding also as to why Epic is not being supported is that the math starts breaking down at those levels. I believe that has been listed as another main reason they are doing mythic, which lets you kind of side step that issue.Yep. Continuing to level forces power increases in a sort of linear fashion, and the continued rate of increase starts to get really wonky. Mind, I've run a 20th level game -- it works better than a lot of people claim it does -- but I can't see things going much higher without stuff starting to breakdown (or everyone autosucceeds at everything except on attack rolls).
Mythic rules BROADEN the power base in a way that increases power, just not on the same linear line as leveling. But the other thing that works well for high level play is that you increase in tier based on deeds and heroic accomplishments more than simply earning XP, which makes a lot more sense for an "epic" character who can kill hordes of low level creatures and barely see a change in their experience level. Your power increase is story based--and can be faster than XP leveling at that point, or if it's slower, it feels more organic.
Honestly, I think the dislike for mythic is in part that saying "I'm a tier 1 champion level 20 fighter" doesn't sound as satisfying as "I'm a 23rd level fighter" for those for whom big numbers mean everything. There are other valid concerns as well, but I think that's honestly part of it. And that's not a judgement against people who want to see "level 40" on their character sheet. But people who want that that badly can probably adapt the epic rules pretty well on their own.
Anyway, the book's not out yet so we'll see how it feels when we get the final product. The playtest was a taste, and hopefully they took a lot of feedback and improved on the idea.
Sorry for derailing, sort of.
Back to wishes for books, talking again of an "Advanced GMG," would love some specific advice for designing high level and powerful (mythic)...
I sort of look at Ultimate Campaign as the "Advanced GMG" in that it covers so much more than the GMG did, and even builds on some of the rules from that book.
I agree that more support for high level play would be nice. Hopefully it will be a good part of Mythic Adventures.
I will still get the psionics/psychic magic book when(if) it comes out.
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I sort of look at Ultimate Campaign as the "Advanced GMG" in that it covers so much more than the GMG did, and even builds on some of the rules from that book.
IMO Ultimate Campaign was a downtime Players Handbook - very little was in the book that actually concerned setting up a campaign and running the game (with the exception of a few parts of Chapter 3), most of it was just a collection of PC focused downtime mechanics and mini-games. I stated that before the book came out and after looking at the book I stand by that claim. At best it's an game mechanic expansion book with tasks/challenges beyond combat. That doesn't equal "Campaign" IMO.
Still waiting for a true campaign based book that expands upon GMG, doesn't look like it will be coming out any time in the next few years. Nor will a bestiary/advanced monster mechanics book.
Need to write that one my self or hope that a 3rd party puts out a book with the code breakdown.
Beyond the $400+ Green Dragon, none of the announced releases moved me. Mask of the Mummy might be good if they take a Black Pharaoh approach, but I won't know more till we get closer to that AP. The Ultimate Gods hardback is a pass for me.
So my sleep deprived brain just ordered me to write this down:
Pathfinder RPG: Ultimate Technology
Adding modern and futuristic technology to the game so you can have your games set in an entirely modern game. Complete with elves with lasers and ogres with chainguns and all that jazz.