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There was a thread in the Gamer Talk area that has be a bit baffled. The word "rape" was used at some point, and the post that originally used it was removed. There are folks who justify using the term around the table.
Then we have all these threads stating females don't want to play Pathfinder in the same numbers as males. We have threads where the women say the culture doesn't always make them feel included.
So my questions are: If we're going to use such charged terms that affect one gender (women) much more negatively than another (men), can we as a community expect women to want to play? Also, just because a term has been co-opted by a group, does that really justify the term being used in such a way?
Personally I find the idea of yelling "I raped its face off, take that b+#*$ez!" to be Seriously Uncool. The majority of the women I game with now and that I have gamed with previously tell me they're uncomfortable with the idea of the term "rape" being used so lightly. Especially those that have lived through the experience of actual rape happening to them.
My kid is a teenager now, and I speak up when his friends say something like, "Dude, that's so gay." I speak up when they say, "That's so Jew-y" too. I speak up when someone says "Awwww sweet it's been thoroughly raped" when critical damage is taken.
But that's me.
What's your take on this issue? And why?
PostMonster General
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Just as an FYI about the moderation here. We have a strict, 100% no-exceptions policy on our messageboards that you can use the word rape only to refer to sexual assault. I don't care about any other historical meanings of the word ("raped the countryside"), they are not acceptable here.
The moderators can't be everywhere. If it goes unreported, then chances are they'll never see it unless they view the thread themselves.
Chances are, no one sitting around your table has ever been a slave, been subjected to torture, or survived a concentration camp. However, there's a very good chance someone at the table--male or female--has been sexually assaulted. To be flippant about it is insensitive.
Using the term rape in context as part of the story is something that happens at my table. It's never center stage though.
But that's me.
What's your take on this issue? And why?
I tend to agree with you...because words mean something. To use them incorectly is just a sign of ignorance or trying to seem 'cool'. Personaly I just think it makes you sound like a idiot.
And you should be very careful around words that have...or could have a emotional charge to the them like 'rape'.
I don't use statements like that around new people and in public. I only say things of that nature around good friends (both male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc.) that don't mind it. Otherwise, we'd have to ban 'lame' for being offensive to paraplegics.
I think you will find the moderators very consistent in what they allow or disallow..
Its a very big site and they cant see everything at once, they rely on us to flag and move on so they can take care of stuff.
Nymian - I know you did not mean for it to sound this way but men are raped surprisingly often while most of the rape is man on man. The impact of rape on men is just as devastating.
It has never been used in the context you describe in the games I have played but I am old and my peers are old and in the 80's that word just would not have been said in that context.
Sadly spaz, retard, and poof were when we were young, we grew out of it quickly.
F@+!ed is used around the table occasionally but usually in reference to movies.
"Oh we are f&~+ed"
"What proper f&!!ed"
"Yeh proper f*~$ed"
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A lot of the posts in that "one liners that might the whole table laugh" thread are hilarious, but there's so many in there that resort to dodgy sexual jokes that I think makes them lose their flavour. The best lines in there are the ones that can keep it classy.
Why is sex as a topic classless?
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Nymian, you're not alone. Speech defines how we perceive things, even if different words mean different things to different people. It is important to let others know how their words are affecting you (or someone you know/care about, for that matter), and for that reason I agree with most of what you've said. If left unchecked, they will keep using it and either unknowingly chase off people who could have been their friends and fellow hobbyists... or worse, they will knowingly do so, viewing those people as beneath them for a factor they cannot control (mental state, gender, etc.) and worthy of as much emotional pain as they can possibly inflict on those 'inferiors'.
I've seen it in a few video game communities, and was extremely disappointed by it. What started as one or two people making cracks like the ones mentioned in this thread ended up becoming the social norm there, driving some of my friends out. As it got increasingly worse, I bowed out too. It sucked; I had invested countless hours into some of these venues and seeing them turn into cesspools hurt a lot.
We should be careful with 'slang' that could easily and reasonably offend others outside your immediate demographic. My personal guideline on this has been something like...
Is it something inherent to the person, such as their mental development, gender, ethnicity, orientation, and so on? If it is, it's probably not fair grounds for derision or aggressive slang. Most of what you (Nymian) listed fits this definition and I agree it's not good.
kmal2t raises a good point as well, though in this case I think intent matters. It's something to think about, though I have no particular reply in detail yet.
Conversely, profanity doesn't bother me. I think it has a valid place in language, used to indicate strong anger and non-specific hate. It can be used to show hostility toward a person based on their actions rather than an inherent trait about them, so I shrug profanity off most of the time.
Outside of that exception, I think it's important to avoid 'slang' uses of some of the terms we've brought up so far. They really can make a game environment unwelcoming to others and drive them off, and that's not a good thing.
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What about other expressions?
What about metaphorical use of slavery when people say "I don't want to be a slave to the DM" ?
What about torture when people say "I don't want to torture you with pages on this subject but.."
Or Godwins law that people always make a reference to Hitler and Nazis?
Pretty sure I've seen a number of threads with the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative just in the way OP mentioned.
It seems to be pretty subjective based on the whims of a few mods' views.
This is how your argument reads:
A is offensive, but B is also offensive, therefore we can't restrict how people use A.
Instead of talking about these other words, only talk about the word at hand and tell me why you think you should be allowed to flippantly use a word that is often a trigger of psychological trauma for victims of said word.
What exactly is the pressing need to use the word "rape" in a context outside of its meaning as a sexual crime? How will you be harmed by not using it?
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What exactly is the pressing need to use the word "rape" in a context outside of its meaning as a sexual crime? How will you be harmed by not using it?
You better tell that to the town of Tisdale, Saskatchewan.
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Its probably a generational thing.
Sucks and freaking were horrible swears to my parents.
My mom once had her mouth washed out with soap for saying damned.
Frankly scarlet i don't give a damn was considered shockingly inappropriate at one point.
I'm a lot more interested in what people do than what they say.
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A lot of the posts in that "one liners that might the whole table laugh" thread are hilarious, but there's so many in there that resort to dodgy sexual jokes that I think makes them lose their flavour. The best lines in there are the ones that can keep it classy.Why is sex as a topic classless?
It's 12-year-old comedy that potentially makes people uncomfortable. Hee hee, he said the P-word. Some of it is okay, some of it is trash.
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You miss the point. If A is offensive and insta-banned why aren't B, C, and D?What about other expressions?
What about metaphorical use of slavery when people say "I don't want to be a slave to the DM" ?
What about torture when people say "I don't want to torture you with pages on this subject but.."
Or Godwins law that people always make a reference to Hitler and Nazis?
Pretty sure I've seen a number of threads with the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative just in the way OP mentioned.
It seems to be pretty subjective based on the whims of a few mods' views.
This is how your argument reads:
A is offensive, but B is also offensive, therefore we can't restrict how people use A.
Instead of talking about these other words, only talk about the word at hand and tell me why you think you should be allowed to flippantly use a word that is often a trigger of psychological trauma for victims of said word.
What exactly is the pressing need to use the word "rape" in a context outside of its meaning as a sexual crime? How will you be harmed by not using it?
Leave your slippery slope and association fallacies at the door please. Are you in favor of using the word rape as slang?
Also, don't make assumptions about what kind of humor I do or don't like.
I love this scene for example. Language is definitely not safe for work.
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You miss the point. If A is offensive and insta-banned why aren't B, C, and D?What about other expressions?
What about metaphorical use of slavery when people say "I don't want to be a slave to the DM" ?
What about torture when people say "I don't want to torture you with pages on this subject but.."
Or Godwins law that people always make a reference to Hitler and Nazis?
Pretty sure I've seen a number of threads with the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative just in the way OP mentioned.
It seems to be pretty subjective based on the whims of a few mods' views.
This is how your argument reads:
A is offensive, but B is also offensive, therefore we can't restrict how people use A.
Instead of talking about these other words, only talk about the word at hand and tell me why you think you should be allowed to flippantly use a word that is often a trigger of psychological trauma for victims of said word.
What exactly is the pressing need to use the word "rape" in a context outside of its meaning as a sexual crime? How will you be harmed by not using it?
Because people pick and choose WHO you are allowed to offend or not. which is in itself highly bigoted
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You miss the point. If A is offensive and insta-banned why aren't B, C, and D?What about other expressions?
What about metaphorical use of slavery when people say "I don't want to be a slave to the DM" ?
What about torture when people say "I don't want to torture you with pages on this subject but.."
Or Godwins law that people always make a reference to Hitler and Nazis?
Pretty sure I've seen a number of threads with the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative just in the way OP mentioned.
It seems to be pretty subjective based on the whims of a few mods' views.
This is how your argument reads:
A is offensive, but B is also offensive, therefore we can't restrict how people use A.
Instead of talking about these other words, only talk about the word at hand and tell me why you think you should be allowed to flippantly use a word that is often a trigger of psychological trauma for victims of said word.
What exactly is the pressing need to use the word "rape" in a context outside of its meaning as a sexual crime? How will you be harmed by not using it?
Leave your slippery slope and association fallacies at the door please. Are you in favor of using the word rape as slang?
Also, don't make assumptions about what kind of humor I do or don't like.
I love this scene for example. Language is definitely not safe for work.
that is hilarious
First, if you look at the rates of resulting PTSD frequency in different groups, you will find that men are more severely impacted on average than women by being raped. This could have many different reasons, of course, such as more frequent severe violence, or less understanding if the victim talks to someone about it.
That said, I do not quite understand the idea that the word itself is so horrible that it should never be used as slang. If someone gets flashbacks due to just hearing the word, does it really matter what context it is used in? Is it, for instance, worse to hear someone say "We totally raped that beholder!!!1" than to hear someone say "a recent rape case in India is causing civil unrest", if it is the WORD that triggers things? Kids have always used the very most offensive words they can find as slang, and we're not likely to change that anytime soon. What we CAN change, however, is ban any sort of discussion relating to sexual crimes entirely from the media... But we haven't, have we? Those headlines are WAY too profitable. And if we do not, don't think you will get respect from the kids on what words they use and do not use.
In short, I agree that it's crude and stupid, but I also think that the issue is more complicated than most give it credit for. First and foremost, the word actually does not MEAN the sexual crime when used by those who say "we totally raped that beholder". Second, considering that many rape victims choose to shut up about it because they feel that if they tell anyone, they will then be ONLY a rape victim, the word rape is long overdue for a serious defusing. The current situation seems to be a result of people viewing the "purity" of a woman to be "soiled" if she has been raped, which is about the most hideously and miserably pathetic memes around.
A lot of the posts in that "one liners that might the whole table laugh" thread are hilarious, but there's so many in there that resort to dodgy sexual jokes that I think makes them lose their flavour. The best lines in there are the ones that can keep it classy.Why is sex as a topic classless?
"Bawdy" may have been a better choice of words than "classless."
By no means am I a prude, but I prefer the "fade to black" methodology in regards to sex in movies and Gaming vs the "roll dexterity." It keeps things lighthearted and classy without resorting to being crude.
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First, if you look at the rates of resulting PTSD frequency in different groups, you will find that men are more severely impacted on average than women by being raped. This could have many different reasons, of course, such as more frequent severe violence, or less understanding if the victim talks to someone about it.
That said, I do not quite understand the idea that the word itself is so horrible that it should never be used as slang. If someone gets flashbacks due to just hearing the word, does it really matter what context it is used in? Is it, for instance, worse to hear someone say "We totally raped that beholder!!!1" than to hear someone say "a recent rape case in India is causing civil unrest", if it is the WORD that triggers things? Kids have always used the very most offensive words they can find as slang, and we're not likely to change that anytime soon. What we CAN change, however, is ban any sort of discussion relating to sexual crimes entirely from the media... But we haven't, have we? Those headlines are WAY too profitable. And if we do not, don't think you will get respect from the kids on what words they use and do not use.
In short, I agree that it's crude and stupid, but I also think that the issue is more complicated than most give it credit for. First and foremost, the word actually does not MEAN the sexual crime when used by those who say "we totally raped that beholder". Second, considering that many rape victims choose to shut up about it because they feel that if they tell anyone, they will then be ONLY a rape victim, the word rape is long overdue for a serious defusing. The current situation seems to be a result of people viewing the "purity" of a woman to be "soiled" if she has been raped, which is about the most hideously and miserably pathetic memes around.
And if the word itself is so powerful are we willing to make concessions for others traumatized such as removing all references to guns, shooting or bombs/explosions to accommodate post war soldiers?
So if I have not been raped, I am not allowed to have an opinion on the medial/communicative issue related to it. If I understand you correctly, I am not allowed to set myself as representing the interests of those who have been raped. Surely that must also and equally apply to everyone else in this discussion?
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T8D: Yes, I agree; sexual assault happens to men too. However the majority of sexual assaults reported happen to females.
But my grandfather alluded to stories of assaults like that occurring in WWII to guys in his unit that were captured. Sexual assault is equal opportunity in some ways and in others may not be.
Sissyl: And yes, studies have shown they find it more psychologically difficult. Many factors.
I for one am for free speech. This banning of words is just wrong. 100% of the time in all circumstances.
The only problem I can see is people will say things on the internet they wouldn't normally have the guts to say to someones face.
So if I have not been raped, I am not allowed to have an opinion on the medial/communicative issue related to it. If I understand you correctly, I am not allowed to set myself as representing the interests of those who have been raped. Surely that must also and equally apply to everyone else in this discussion?I don't think I said that at all.
I don't think it matters in this context whether you've been raped or not. If you're joking about rape and someone is having traumatic flashbacks and you tell them "I don't think rape should bother you so much, so I'm going to keep joking about it", then you're being a jerk. Regardless of any theoretical rationalizations about how it's just a word or we need to change the culture to defuse it.
In person, most of us will realize that and stop. On line it's harder to see who's being hurt, so it's just common courtesy to not do that. It's really pretty simple. You know this is an issue that a lot of people have trouble with. It'sa big issue for some. It's a trivial thing to avoid.
You certainly did say it:
I kind of agree about defusing the word, but that kind of thing has to come from the people who would be hurt by it, not by others.
In other words, it is acceptable for you to claim to represent the interests of people who have been raped, but not for me to do it. That is just plain ugly.
Second, I was discussing the idea that you should not use the word rape in ANY SITUATION, because you don't know if someone present has been raped. You then claim that I was discussing the situation where I KNEW that someone was having flashbacks/had been raped, and that holding my views in such a situation was being a jerk. Way to move the goalposts, thejeff.
I for one am for free speech. This banning of words is just wrong. 100% of the time in all circumstances.
The only problem I can see is people will say things on the internet they wouldn't normally have the guts to say to someones face.
Even in private groups?
Is it acceptable for a parent to ban certain words from use by his children? Or ask her guests not to use them with children present?How about a online site geared for children?
Or if children are the only special exception, is it acceptable for someone to not want certain things discussed on his presence. To use the rape example, if I do have a traumatic reaction to talk of rape, can I ask my friends not to bring it up or do I have to just leave without even mentioning why?
For online sites, is any kind of moderation acceptable? Should the owners of the site, or their representatives, be able to delete spammed ads? Deliberate trolling? Attacks on other posters? Racial or sexual abuse? Explicitly sexual posts? How about pictures or video?
Are they allowed any control over what appears on their site?
Different strokes regarding how to deal with one's children's vocabularies. Personally, I prefer telling the child what the likely reaction will be if they use the word and letting them figure it out.
Certainly, it is always okay to ask for some emotional reaction to be respected, whether it is a phobia of cats, rape, drugs, exploding people or freaking potatoes. If it's important to someone I am spending time with, I try to adapt to what they are comfortable with... IF I KNOW ABOUT IT. If I don't know about it, and know them reasonably well, I would consider myself entirely blameless if they had an emotional reaction to something I said. Please, thejeff, DO NOT conflate the two situations. Showing respect in a specific situation is okay, not being able to say ANYTHING that might upset someone else in ANY situation is not.
Finally, yes, moderation is acceptable. Are you seriously pulling the old crap about "if this banning is not okay, then you're also against all other bans"?
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I for one am for free speech. This banning of words is just wrong. 100% of the time in all circumstances.
The only problem I can see is people will say things on the internet they wouldn't normally have the guts to say to someones face.
I will second this. People need to understand the difference of in-game and out-of-game.
Speaking from personal view, i have lost my father. Still, i use "fathers" in my background, and my "fathers" have died horribly, have turned to liches, have become arch-villains, have killed my character, and all Hell of things. Half of their stories of what they became were even designed by the ST.
Banning a word because "it reminds me of" is one step before slavery. If your character is raped, he/she has to react accordingly. You are not roleplaying yourself. No one raped you, no one killed you, no one slashed you, no one fireballed you.
Words are what those who hear them understand them to be. An African friend of mine was calling me "Whitey" and i have been calling him "Blackey" for a long time while we were roleplaying. Neither i enslaved him, nor did he.
I could start a whole discussion about slavery and rape, but these forums are dedicated to another subject, on which i will focus.
For the forums part, the moderators have created them. It is their "home", and they set the rules. Whoever doesn't like this, can just not visit the forums again.
As for my direct reply to the OP. You must understand the differences of words, beliefs and actions.
If your kid "raped a few kobolds" with his critical, then he is just using a different word to express something. It is his/her choice of wording and the only thing i see would be right to do is to talk with him/her about it, not ban it. Children tend to do what their parents don't allow them to.
If your kid actually like raping people on the street, then you need to teach him about it, not just stop him from using the word.
If your kid really raped someone, then he/she really needs professional help.
So long as I don't know about it, no. I don't know if anyone in my company could be offended by psychiatric illness, various kinds of crimes, divorce, certain political views, certain groups of people, comments about certain groups of people, religious views, comments on areas of life that people have religious views on, education, evolution, diseases, substance abuse, various animals, sex, demonstrations, law enforcement, the media, the legal system, various animals, phobias, delusions of various kinds, economics, history, business, advertisement, hobbies, etc etc etc etc etc etc. If I played that game, my discussions with other people would be limited to discussing the weather. No thank you.
And no, there is no "great reason" to talk to other people AT ALL. About any subject.
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Too bad most of the people I see misusing the word rape are females. My Facebook circle is crawling with women of college age (no, I'm not a pervert, my wife and I do cosplay and it attracts a lot of people from all ages), and girls ages 18 - 23 seem to be fascinated with yelling about how so-and-so "raped" so-and-so in some online game, or by beating the other person to a sale at Hot Topic, or whatever.
Yes, as a fan of Silent Hill, I also see males misusing the term as regards to our hobby's mascot, Pyramid Head. But by far, in my world at least, females are the culprits of this rather distasteful meme. Perhaps they feel they now "own" the term, maybe due to the proliferation of rape stories in social media under the phony title "Rape Culture" (a term I find as reprehensible and about as sensible as "Abortion Industry" - both having about the same basis in the reality of the multitudes of individual, unique cases concerning both subjects - meaning none, beyond getting a rise out of a base).
But thank you for again pointing the finger at an allegedly all-male club of badness, and in particular, of accusing gamers of being any more at large in what is clearly a society-wide epidemic of idiocy that affects both sexes - female Hot Topic customers of age 18 not often being tabletop gamers. Once again, by association, all gamers are bad - particularly if they are male - and all girls get the pass that being treated equally (read: SPECIAL) garners them by virtue of being female.
Makes sense. Then again, you may want to factor in the long history of alleged lesser female participation in this sort of gaming, and that it precedes the recent distasteful rise of the word rape in common conversation. It's like asking if cell phones are responsible for the loss of the telegraph. No, Virginia, the telegraph went the way of the dinosaur long before cell towers came into being. Blaming the newest technology just makes you a little late to the party.
As to the broader subject of inclusion, I don't know if a 50/50 ratio is a possible goal.
1) The game is fundamentally about violent home invasion for fun and profit. You hack heads off with swords, blow things up with fireballs, and sneak up on people and stab them in the kidneys with daggers. This appeals more to men than women.
This leads to a self reinforcing cycle where the people who aren't interested in this sort of thing don't play, so the game stays focused on home invasion for fun and profit because thats what the customers want.
2) Many people learned to play D&D in highschool (or sooner) Breaking out the dice is, for some people, like meeting that old friend from highschool and falling back into old fun/immature behavior patterns, but without the "I'm too old for this stuff" reaction you get from a hangover. Low brow humor and innuendo are just as much a part of the game as chips and mountain dew. Folks that can't handle it get turned off, so it stays a part of the game.
3) A lot of geek humor tends towards the low brow anyway.
4) I know some people like to try to push the ideas that men and women are the same, but honestly sometimes I wonder if we're not speaking two different languages. If you have an all/mostly male group a woman is going to have a harder time fitting in. This kicks off the self reinforcing cycle described above.
PLEASE DON'T TRY TO CONFLATE THE SITUATIONS, THEJEFF.
1) "Nobody should ever say rape in any situation because someone present might be traumatized by it"
2) "Don't say rape if someone present asks you not to"
These are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT situations. Please try to understand this.
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Leave your slippery slope and association fallacies at the door please. Are you in favor of using the word rape as slang?
IT I know you're smarter than this. In no way is what was presented indicative of a slippery slope fallacy. Furthermore not all slippery slopes are fallacies.
A slippery slope fallacy arises when there is confusion as to the logical stopping point within the confines of an argument. Example: Santorum says that allowing gays to marry is a slippery slope that will lead to men marrying children, multiple wives, and animals if not furniture. The fallacy is that we have a logical stopping point to stop all this behavior: it is still an agreement between two consenting adults, so his argument is nullified.
When you say that we should avoid language that could "trigger" people,you must concede that, not knowing their minds, literally any word or phrase or action could similarly trigger people. Specific examples brought up are good ones, and it is entirely legitimate to ask why not them?
If you're contending that rape is a special case, and something about that word sets it apart from all other words in the English language, then you need to make the case for that; the burden of proof is on you.
Santorum... wasn't that the sludge left over after... Well, you know.
So sludge is talking now. Interesting.
Banning a word because "it reminds me of" is one step before slavery. If your character is raped, he/she has to react accordingly. You are not roleplaying yourself. No one raped you, no one killed you, no one slashed you, no one fireballed you.
Words are what those who hear them understand them to be. An African friend of mine was calling me "Whitey" and i have been calling him "Blackey" for a long time while we were roleplaying. Neither i enslaved him, nor did he.
Try calling random Africans you meet on the street "Blackey" and see how quickly you make friends. What you can do among your close friends is different from what's acceptable in a public space.
And this is a public space.More importantly, if you had a player who had been raped and reacted badly to the start of a rape scene of her character, how would you respond? Just push on regardless? Tell her she has to react accordingly?
If you'd started the rape scene and a player told you "I was raped. I can't handle this." would you really tell her "If your character is raped, he/she has to react accordingly. You are not roleplaying yourself. No one raped you, no one killed you, no one slashed you, no one fireballed you."Cause that's a pretty nasty approach.
I believe Sissyl answered to the biggest part of your post.
As for the personal question, i will answer. If she was really and unjustifiably raped, i would ask her if she wanted to talk about it, and through this, try to help. If she didn't qualify for the above, or refused to talk about a cooperative way with reasoning, then i would also stop playing with her.
I have previously once have a PC and female player (actually, two at the same scene) get raped. It resulted purely from their actions. After talking with them, we said that what happened is logical, they just don't want me to describe it (like i like to do at every gore scene).
Before you begin writing the sign of "bad person" above my head, answer this question to yourself:
If i went up to the BBEG's face and told him i hate him and want to kill him, and the BBEG kills him, if i cry about "i am always losing at my life, i don't want to lose, etc." would you let me go on, rewind the scene, and let me God-mode kill him?
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"unjustifiably raped" is a truly disgusting concept. While there are false accusations of rape, I think we are all in agreement that rape is a very serious matter. Spreading the recent republican idea that "a woman's body will spontaneously abort if that happens", and therefore, that if a woman goes to term after rape, it wasn't "real" rape... well, I don't have a better word for it than monstrous.