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From your description, I'm not following how he's abusing the 5-foot step. Monsters can use it too. Could you be more specific?
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The question is whether the crocodiles were 10 feet away on land and just moved up 5 feet to attack you. Think of how crocodiles attack their prey, they lie in wait and then move in slowly looking like a log or drift under the water until they are within striking distance. If this is how he was playing them to get within 5 feet of you and the other players that's the perfect way to use them in combat. If he is using them to take 5-foot steps back as part of intelligent tactics he is being a Richard and shouldn't be abusing the rule.
The Trogs on the other hand are a different matter, they would fight with decent tactics in my opinion. They have an intelligence score of 8 and use weapons like javelins, so they would even throw those weapons before closing if they want and then come in with claws/teeth/clubs.
So give more information on how he was using the monsters in combat and let us know why you think he's abusing rules.
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Don't stand 5 foot away from the monsters, problem solved.
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Troglodytes are stupid? Man, never thought that -1 to int based skill checks was the same thing as being stupid. Heck that is just a racial tendency, no reason why a troglodyte can't be a wizard or sorcerer with different stat allocations.
If an animal is 5 foot away from the enemy, why wouldn't they 5 foot step instead of eating a AoO? Heck even spiders and scorpions approach dangerous prey with cation.
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Troglodytes are stupid? Man, never thought that -1 to int based skill checks was the same thing as being stupid. Heck that is just a racial tendency, no reason why a troglodyte can't be a wizard or sorcerer with different stat allocations.
Not to mention the fact that half the fighter-types dump Int to a -2 penalty, but still expect to be able to use 5' steps.....
he's not abusing the 5 foot step rule. He's using it exactly as intended. I suggest your party take more 5 foot steps.
You said he "5 foot steps into combat" , I assume that means: he's 10 feet away, the monsters take a 5 foot step, and make a full attack.
That's completely legit. 5 feet isn't very far away, even for an animal (and crocodiles actually can sprint shockingly fast on land IRL), and it's easy to close that short of a distance without sacrificing time required to use your attacks to their full potential.
Do you like open a door and then there is a bunch of troglodytes that are just inside the door who 5 foot step and full attack you? That's completely legit too. My suggestion here is to get better initiative scores so you can go first and pull the same trick on them.
If you're talking about 5 foot stepping to get flanking bonuses, any intelligent enemy can do that just fine. Even animals often display these tactics, wolves and lions for example, are known for coordination and pack attacks.
Whether crocodiles are smart enough to set up flanking, not being natural pack animals, is a bit of a judgement call. But I'd still say its not really a problem.
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I think I know which scenario you are talking about. If so, that croc is an animal companion. If it has the Flank trick, then it is appropriate to be taking 5-ft steps in combat to provide flanking. I don't think it does, though. The troglodyte Druid can still push it, but that is a full-round action.
If the issue is that the croc only needs to move five feet to get to attack a character and it uses a 5-ft step, well that's too bad for you. If its farther than five feet away, it should charge. That's what animals do.
It is totally reasonable for troglodytes to use good tactics in combat. Especially those with class levels.
Crocs actually act like that when they withdraw. They face the threat and back away with their mouth available to bite any who follow.
As for the trogs, that's just bad tactics against any party not run by idiots. If they don't get in melee just range them down. Trogs aren't particularly good at throwing javelins. Or the party could perhaps just move in to attack. Its not that hard, don't even eat AoO, and the only bad thing is you might eat a full attack (which would require a large number of levels on the troglodytes). Which is why its a good idea to just range them down at higher levels.
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Yea the croc was moving 5-foot away from us and the Trogs would charge stop 30feet from us throw javelins and then 5 foot towards us till they got within range of attacks
Why didn't you charge THEM?
Also, as others have pointed out, 5-ft step buys you nothing if you are not moving out of a threatened space.
I guess they could hold a standard action for the enemy to approach with this tactics, possibly trying to bait a charge for the AC penalty. Just range them down.
Also, what is up with banning ACs and summons? Do the ranger and druids of the world get something to make up for the loss of a major class ability?
To not provoke AoO from players and since our ranger decided to be TwF we dont have decent range.
TWF rangers still have good dex, and enemies not in combat don't even need the feats to hit. The TWF needs to get a good bow so he isn't useless in stand off situations.
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I am confused as to why they 5' at all? Why didn't they just move again on thier second turn if no one was adjacent to draw an opp from (you said they needed to close distance?) On their second turn, I might have had them charge at that point (if distance was good).
No it is not common for creatures to 5' step each round to close distance. Usually they attack at range, or get right up in your face and then 5' step each round to get better positions and flanks.
Thats my experience.
Yea the croc was moving 5-foot away from us and the Trogs would charge stop 30feet from us throw javelins and then 5 foot towards us till they got within range of attacks
The way you prhased this, it looks like he's having them take several 5' steps in a single round until they get into melee range. If so, then he broke the rules:
"You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."
But if you meant that those "5 foot towards us until they got within range of attacks" was happening on different melee rounds and they never took more than one 5' step in each round, and didn't make any other movements in those same rounds, then there is no abuse, though I'm not sure of the tactical advantage of using multiple rounds to close with enemies at only 5' per round.
As for crocodiles or other unintelligent animals/insects/oozes/whatever using 5' steps, don't think of the 5' step rule as a tactical maneuver that must be learned and trained.
For me, I see the 5' step as simply anyone or anything, trained or not, intelligent or not, seeing some distance between themselves and the thing they want to hurt/kill/eat and closing the distance. Being somewhat wary and defensive which even unintelligent monsters are since nothing that can feel pain wants to get hurt - which is why it never provokes.
Truly unintelligent monsters that don't feel pain, like zombies or oozes, might not care about approaching an enemy who is only 5 feet away. They might just move 5 feet or they might take a 5' step (the first might provoke under the right conditions, the second never does). Nevertheless, to keep it simple, I always use the 5' step without provoking and symbolically describe it as a quick lunge forward as part of their instinctive effort to attack, etc., rather than simply walking up to attack.
Side note: anything with more than one attack will always choose a 5' step instead of walking 5' because the former lets it full attack while the latter does not, and even unintelligent monsters still are biologically and instinctively programmed to take full advantage of their natural attacks and defenses.
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Horses won't charge into long spears, why would troglodytes?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sean K Reynolds (Designer): "Nothing in the rules say that 5FS and other actions in the Combat chapter require a minimum Intelligence score to use them."
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Also, what is up with banning ACs and summons? Do the ranger and druids of the world get something to make up for the loss of a major class ability?
I wondered the same thing, but that's a bit of a thread derail bro. Let's talk about that in another thread or something because that's a whole new can of worms.
Anyhow, I agree with the others that Trogs do what they want and are as smart as a lot of fighters out there. They would fight with tactics as they don't want to die either. It sounds like you and your group do need to work on your own tactics so that the fights go easier, do your own 5-foot steps when needed, buff each other up, the cleric should be behind the ranger using his longspear at range of 10 feet, healing and tossing out spells if he can as well, the sorcerer needs to do the same. I don't know why you say you are lacking at range if you have 2 spell casters, both are technically ranged for most of their offensive spells.
Well I guess 5-foot makes sense, I didn't see the logic that these creatures would 5-foot every turn till they got within melee range but from what everyone is saying this is common and used frequently. Also the charge was a miss use of wording, they would move their 30 feet and throw javs then on their next turn they would 5-foot, then 5-foot, then 5-foot to close distance. Also the team is a heal cleric, Sorc and two weapon Ranger. Also the GM banned summon monsters and pets apparently.
Ahh, now I see.
But, why don't your PCs all just 5' move back, keeping the monsters from ever reaching them?
Surely, someone has ranged attacks? Let your two guys with spears threaten the AoO and let the rest throw daggers, fire bows (even a TWF ranger can put away his TWF and whip out a bow - he doesn't have to specialize for it just to use it), whatever. Carry your own javelins. Your cleric can throw all kind of weapons. Then there's Magic Missile, Color Spray (15' cone), or even Ray of Frost cantrips fired every round for free until you freeze every trog to death, slowly, as everyone keeps taking 5' steps back.
Well I guess 5-foot makes sense, I didn't see the logic that these creatures would 5-foot every turn till they got within melee range but from what everyone is saying this is common and used frequently. Also the charge was a miss use of wording, they would move their 30 feet and throw javs then on their next turn they would 5-foot, then 5-foot, then 5-foot to close distance. Also the team is a heal cleric, Sorc and two weapon Ranger. Also the GM banned summon monsters and pets apparently.
Actually the last line is the rules violation. In PFS games the GM can't ban PFS legalstuff.
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I'm with DM Blake here. It sounds to me like your DM is allowing enemies multiple 5 foot steps in a single round...would you care to clarify if this is the case?
Because otherwise I would welcome enemies taking 5' steps every round to try and reach my party. Combined with our own 5' steps and some ranged weapons, well, let's just say, it wouldn't be pretty.
Where did you get the idea that this is PFS?
The OP: "[W]e go play Society games.."
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So I have been playing pathfinder for about a year now with a core group of friends and we go play Society games which allows us to play characters and not GM. Well one of our friends begged us to be able to GM a few games and he is abusing the 5-foot step rule, all his monster take it into combat. Not intelligent monsters at all; like our last game we fought a crocodile and a few troglodytes which each monster 5-foot into combat. How could we approach this problem?I really don't understand anything you're saying.
I read how you say he's abusing it but it doesn't make sense.
Why is anyone 5 ft stepping into combat? If they are range what does it matter if they are 5 ft stepping? Does someone have reach? There is no reason to 5 ft step INTO combat unless someone has reach, and if they have reach normally it's best to wait and allow them to approach you.
Any humanoid who has any intelligence can 5 ft step there is no rule against it. If a creature is fighting, and it only needs to move 5 ft or whatever, there is nothing wrong with it 5 ft stepping. It's considered a defensive move, it doesn't have to be "tactical". How they use it is tactical.
Crocs wouldnt know to 5 ft step around you, after reaching your front, to flank you. They don't have that intelligence.
Trogladytes would definitely know how to do this.
Still super confused why the trogs were 5 ft stepping into combat each around. I would have charged them.
Because the party had long pointy things leveled at them. Why not avoid all that?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Since we're still getting people saying "X isn't intelligent enough to do Y", let me reiterate:
Sean K Reynolds (Designer): "Nothing in the rules say that 5FS and other actions in the Combat chapter require a minimum Intelligence score to use them."
I am confused as to why they 5' at all? Why didn't they just move again on thier second turn if no one was adjacent to draw an opp from (you said they needed to close distance?) On their second turn, I might have had them charge at that point (if distance was good).
No it is not common for creatures to 5' step each round to close distance. Usually they attack at range, or get right up in your face and then 5' step each round to get better positions and flanks.
Thats my experience.
If they're able to throw more than one javelin on a full attack, but do not have unlimited javelins, a full attack + a 5 step each round until they run out of javelins seems like an excellent strategy if the party isn't shooting back or moving to cover.
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nothing about taking 5 foot steps to flank requires any level of intelligence.
wolves and lions do it, and they have an intelligence of 2, zombies do it and they are freaking mindless.
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Well I guess 5-foot makes sense, I didn't see the logic that these creatures would 5-foot every turn till they got within melee range but from what everyone is saying this is common and used frequently. Also the charge was a miss use of wording, they would move their 30 feet and throw javs then on their next turn they would 5-foot, then 5-foot, then 5-foot to close distance. Also the team is a heal cleric, Sorc and two weapon Ranger. Also the GM banned summon monsters and pets apparently.
From what you are saying they seem to be taking multiple 5 foot steps each turn. I want to clarify something.
A five foot step is an action that moves your character five feet (or one square) and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can only take one five foot step in a turn. Also you cannot five foot step and do any other movement. So the example you seem to be giving is that they move 30 and then do six 5 foot steps. That is not legal.
You can 5 foot step and then do actions that do not include movement (with certain exception like teleport or dimension door or some crazy feat).
You can move up to your speed but then you cannot 5 foot step that round.
For example I could five foot step away from combat. Use a move action to take out a potion and a standard action to drink it.