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Tremorsesense is better explained that it senses things that are moving as well as the creature emits very high frequency waves (undetectable by things without tremorsense) from its body through the earth to pinpoint things around it such as creatures and objects to avoid. Just think of echolocation but through the earth instead of through the air like a bat. This is just how I personally interpret it and it has worked well for me so far.
In a recent game a DM ruled that tremorsense can only detect creatures or objects that are moving, thus creating a tremor. However, reading the rule that doesn't appear to be the intent. Does tremorsense really require movement to detect?
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Basically "sense vibrations" vs "anything in contact with the ground"
If it is only movement then how the heck does an earth elemental move in its own plane without running into things?
Nothing in the text of the ability supports the reading that it's movement only. It plainly states "anything that is in contact with the ground."
The water-movement is clearly designated as an additional ability, "Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can ALSO sense..."
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're going to find an official ruling on this. This is a particularly idiosyncratic interpretation that's unlikely to have been raised often enough to be noticed, if it's been raised at all.
Well... I'm in the camp that it is stating "sensitive to vibrations" AND in countact with the ground.
I am also a big fan of semantic consistency - i.e. an ability called tremor sense that indeed senses tremors.
Change the name or fix the description, please.
Even if you don't move from the square you are occupying, you are assumed to be moving. The Dexterity (and Dodge) modifier to Armor Class represent movement to avoid incoming attacks. And you can't really imagine making attacks of your own without some kind of movement. Watch a sword fight, you will see the combatants adjusting their footing, re-positioning themselves, dodging, ducking and weaving. Combat is all about moving, even if you don't leave the 5' square you are in.
Mechanically, the ability let's you pin point the location of anything in contact with the ground. This only tells you the square the thing is in, if it is invisible it still has total concealment from you. So it is effectively a more limited form of blindsense.
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Well... I'm in the camp that it is stating "sensitive to vibrations" AND in countact with the ground.
I am also a big fan of semantic consistency - i.e. an ability called tremor sense that indeed senses tremors.
Change the name or fix the description, please.
Echolocation also senses vibrations ("tremors"). It does not sense only moving targets, because it also senses the vibrations that bounce off of an unmoving object.
Echolocation is a means of the creature or PC to create sounds that bounce off the physical surroundings and return, creating a 3-dimensional image of the physical space and objects. Dolphins do this because they have essentially have three ears.
Tremorsense seems to imply that the creature or PC is sensing tremors. Tremorsense seems to logically = sensing tremors. However, after extensive reading and discussion, it appears tremorsense is intended to represent a very abstract ability of the creature to craft a vague 3-dimensional image of anything in contact with the ground, animate or inanimate, being a source of "tremors" or having absolutely no "tremors" at all. This is in no way something that should be named "tremorsense" or described with any fluff text referencing "vibrations".
It should be named earthsense, or maybe nonsense. Or, change the description to be something more similar to echolocation but represent the ecology better, or go back to the 3.5 descriptor, or apply some limitations that actually fit the concept better.
Even if you don't move from the square you are occupying, you are assumed to be moving. The Dexterity (and Dodge) modifier to Armor Class represent movement to avoid incoming attacks. And you can't really imagine making attacks of your own without some kind of movement. Watch a sword fight, you will see the combatants adjusting their footing, re-positioning themselves, dodging, ducking and weaving. Combat is all about moving, even if you don't leave the 5' square you are in.
Mechanically, the ability let's you pin point the location of anything in contact with the ground. This only tells you the square the thing is in, if it is invisible it still has total concealment from you. So it is effectively a more limited form of blindsense.
The question was more in consideration of an enemy sitting in a chair, or asleep on the floor. I'm not suggesting that in between combat rounds you are standing absolutely still. This is a discussion of how tremorsense is intended to work outside of combat.
Besides, research suggests that tremorsense allows the creature to effectively map an entire 60 ft radius of physical things in contact with the earth, regardless of whether they are animate or inanimate, creating tremors or totally still. I have a hard time believing that is how it was intended to work, but my only supporting argument is semantic, which is really confusing in this case.
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How accute is the tremor sense? Does it detect heart beats? Because that is what mine does. It also sends out pulse waves and reflects them just like ground sonar, working double duty to map the area as well as tell instantly where any living thing (touching a surface) exists within said area.
I also have it sense up walls and onto ceilings if it has the range...
The question was more in consideration of an enemy sitting in a chair, or asleep on the floor. I'm not suggesting that in between combat rounds you are standing absolutely still. This is a discussion of how tremorsense is intended to work outside of combat.
Besides, research suggests that tremorsense allows the creature to effectively map an entire 60 ft radius of physical things in contact with the earth, regardless of whether they are animate or inanimate, creating tremors or totally still. I have a hard time believing that is how it was intended to work, but my only supporting argument is semantic, which is really confusing in this case.
Well, solid objects are great conductors of vibration.
So it depends on how you are conceptualizing the ability. If you imagine it like the earlier poster (echolocation) but that the "sound wave"/vibration doesn't originate from creature with tremorsense but from any vibration then the waves could easily "ping" solid objects in contact with the ground regardless of whether they are themselves animate or inanimate.
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This is starting to come up in my games too now. Player is saying he can use it to map the room on the other side of the wall. I'm totaly for him picking up anything animate behind the wall. Maybe ok with items that are set down in the room. But using it to map walls and other structural things seems out of its scope - they're not creating any tremors.
This is starting to come up in my games too now. Player is saying he can use it to map the room on the other side of the wall. I'm totaly for him picking up anything animate behind the wall. Maybe ok with items that are set down in the room. But using it to map walls and other structural things seems out of its scope - they're not creating any tremors.
I agree. It begins to feel very abusive and for players whose primary aim is to "break" the game, it provides a bit too much leverage within the range of interpretation.
Solution 1 - Begin dubbing the offending player Kevin Bacon and continue until he stops the offending behavior. Alternately give him a bonus to his intelligence checks for watching the movie Tremors, and providing a review of the specific tactics used by the monsters.
Solution 2 - Make sure there are plenty of vermin, pedestrians, civilians, non-combat NPCs, boxes, boxes of boxes, furniture, taxidermied animals, taxidermied humanoids, wax models of high CR monsters, shifting rubble, swarms of swarming swarms, clockwork servants, etc. on your maps.
Solution 3 - Limit the ability to retain and perceive the information gathered based on an intelligence check. Example 1 - the earth elemental communicates to the PC what they are perceiving, but the PC doesn't have a world champion memory, nor does the earth elemental have the intelligence to accurately relay the perceived information accurately via language. Example 2 - the PC is using tremorsense, but how many objects can they really keep up with in their mind's eye?
My problem with solution 2 is that as a GM, you may now be considered the buzz-kill and the solution could become contrived with repeated use. Subsequently, my problem with the problem is that it is not simply a mechanics problem, but begins to creep into player-GM relations, which leads to my resentment of the player that I interpret as trying to "abuse" the system.
Ultimately, it seems that this type of problem may be more of an issue with certain types of players, particularly those that feel entitled to god-like abilities relative to their compatriots, or feel that they have "discovered" some loophole that is enjoyable to exploit. I don't mind some lenience on interpretations with things I disagree with, but primarily when players use it wisely rather than trying to use it abusively.
How are vibrations made? By a crate sitting perfectly still on the ground? Or a crate hitting the ground?
Common sense ruling. I'd say good call for your GM.
Why do you think that being inmobile you do not emit vibrations? I am pretty sure that anything with a heart does...
Can your GM find anything in the rules that says tremorsense can only detect creatures or objects that are moving?
Why do you think that being inmobile you do not emit vibrations? I am pretty sure that anything with a heart does...
That's why I used a crate as an example, but...
Now you are getting into how many units of energy a heartbeat can generate, how much of that conducts and transfers into the clothes you wear, or through the boots you wear, and into the ground.
Now most likely, this ability is intending to say that with slight shifts in body weight, fidgeting, attacks that happened during your round, etc, that a creature with tremorsense would be able to pinpoint them. That makes sense.
But saying that an inanimate object, or say, a person affected by paralysis, should be able to be pinpointed via tremorsense...that doesn't make as much sense.
Can your GM find anything in the rules that says tremorsense can only detect creatures or objects that are moving?
...well snap, SK's here!
But saying that an inanimate object, or say, a person affected by paralysis, should be able to be pinpointed via tremorsense...that doesn't make as much sense.
It does make sense. There are latent vibrations everywhere, and any object touching the ground will interfere in their transfer.
To simplify, if you have a string, it will vibrate when something touches it (movement). If there was something constantly moving on it, you would be able to detect whether there was something other than the moving component on the string as well.
For example, you have two strings. On both of them, there is a squirrel running back and forth. They generate an ambient vibration. On one of the strings, there is also a large bird. This bird is not moving, but because the vibration of the squirrel is partially absorbed by the bird, you could compare the strings and deduce that something is interfering with the vibration.
Tremorsense is a supernatural vibration sense. It can pinpoint non-moving objects because there are moving objects.
You ninja'd me on that point BetaSprite (and explained it better).
The RAW for Tremorsense leads me to a different question though. How much does Tremorsense tell you about the things in contact with the ground? I would think a perception check to get more details (weight, footprint size).
To extend that further then every dust mite would to some degree affect the vibration creating a morass to the senser. Every tree, stone block, etc. The seeming intent is to be able to pinpoint things creating vibration...like a footfall.
Can your GM find anything in the rules that says tremorsense can only detect creatures or objects that are moving?
Let's take a peek at JUST the description for the ability and see how much discrepancy we can all come up with.
---Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground AND can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.---
My interpretation with ONLY the description leaves me with YES, it says/suggests/implies/states that it is only objects that are creating tremors through movement. Moreover, the sentence used to clarify the ability specifically uses the idea of "moving through".
I know that there is additional info in how tremorsense relates to other types of non-visual sensory abilities that further obfuscate the issue, but if I look up this ability, I feel I can argue my interpretation pretty well, though anyone convinced of the opposite can feel justified in telling me I'm doing it wrong.
I don't like having those discussions at my table in the middle of play and assume the best course of action is to invoke rule zero or throw the "wet blanket of GM creative solutions" on the situation. It forces me to be a better GM ultimately.
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To extend that further then every dust mite would to some degree affect the vibration creating a morass to the senser. Every tree, stone block, etc. The seeming intent is to be able to pinpoint things creating vibration...like a footfall.
Do ants and birds and squirrels in the area create a "morass" of visual and audible sensation that makes it impossible to see or hear a human 5 feet away from you? No.
Tremorsense's game effect is simple and clear: you automatically pinpoint anything touching the ground within range. That's it. Adding other baggage to it just makes it more complex and slows down gameplay for no benefit. Let it do what it's supposed to do, and leave it at that.
Because we don't want to start introducing real-world physics to complicate how tremorsense "should" work, which was infravision's problem.
Awesome, thank you Sean.
It is always appreciated when you take time to contribute to the discussions and help clarify things. I will take this to the table.
Speaking of baggage, I think the concern from the GM side is that some players tend to extend what may be a simple and clear effect as far as they possibly can in their favor. i.e. - If I can pinpoint it then I can tell what kind of weapon they are holding or get a complete 3D map of the above ground environment.
I take your statement to imply a bit of restraint in both directions. It is powerful but only so powerful. It is more than just objects moving but less than a complete 3D map with a 60 ft radius.
Fair enough :) I won't argue with the designer!
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"Pinpoint" has a specific meaning in the game: you know what square it's in, so even if you can't see it, you can make an attack into that square (instead of groping around to find it or randomly choosing a square you hope it's in). So it shouldn't tell you what weapon they have (or probably much more than "only taking up one square, probably only two legs."
they still have total concealment, and yes miss chance applies.
You know the square (pinpoint the target) you still can't see them.
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Has anyone here seen the movie "Tremors"?
Dude, I was just watching that yesterday. A classic movie from my childhood!
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Can your GM find anything in the rules that says tremorsense can only detect creatures or objects that are moving?Let's take a peek at JUST the description for the ability and see how much discrepancy we can all come up with.
---Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground AND can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.---
My interpretation with ONLY the description leaves me with YES, it says/suggests/implies/states that it is only objects that are creating tremors through movement. Moreover, the sentence used to clarify the ability specifically uses the idea of "moving through".
I know that there is additional info in how tremorsense relates to other types of non-visual sensory abilities that further obfuscate the issue, but if I look up this ability, I feel I can argue my interpretation pretty well, though anyone convinced of the opposite can feel justified in telling me I'm doing it wrong.
I don't like having those discussions at my table in the middle of play and assume the best course of action is to invoke rule zero or throw the "wet blanket of GM creative solutions" on the situation. It forces me to be a better GM ultimately.
You Cherry picked information from seprate lines talking about two diffrent instances to support your own argument. You took the phrase from detecting movement out of the section that was explicitly talking about water. seperate the disription and you have all the information you need to use it.
---Tremorsense(Ex)
Ground:
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground.
Water:
Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water.
The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
The ground section states anything in contact with the ground, doesnt not say creatures in contact with the ground, does not say it even has to be moveing. It says ANYTHING in contact with the ground.