i have no problems with the Eidolon. it may be an additional combatant, but it is really little more than a glass cannon assisted by another glass cannon.
for some reason, i keep imagining a little half elven girl in a fancy dress and a big hulking oddly colored bodyguard formed from semisolid goo.
...Who in their right mind would put a cloak of resistance on the eidolon instead of the summoner(well, maybe when scouting)? ...
A bit of a later 'ideal,' but I would go for Cloak on Eidolon, Robe of the Archmagi on Summoner. Only puts the Summoner at 1 less Resistance, and also gives other neat things too. Depending on item availability, of course.
This is simply incorrect. Under the summon monster SLA:The Wizard can do the following.
Round 1: Summon.
Round 2: Summon.
Round 3: Summon.
Repeat. Summoners can only have ONE Summon Monster spell active at any point in time.
in this way[/b] at one time.
(my bolding)
So they can have like,
Before combat: Summon SLA
Round 1: Summon spell
Round 2: Summon spell
and thus have one more summon than the wizard. They do have a lesser number of spells per day, true, but I think it's kind of weird to say "this spellcasting isn't as strong as the best caster in the game" as a weakness, when the summoner is better at everything except casting than the wizard.
Summoners can do a few cool tricks wizards can't, though, for example they can use dirt-cheap lesser rods on spells such as Summon Monster IV, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles and Greater Invisibility; at level 7 they can quite cheaply cast an Extended Summon Monster IV.
And they can use the reasonably-priced standard metamagic rods on stuff like Summon Monster IV, Dominate Monster, Incendiary Cloud and Binding. At level 16, if a summoner makes an investment (which is probably SO worth it!) it can open up with Quickened Summon Monster IIX for 1d4+1 Shadow Demons, bringing it's head count to 4-7, including the eidolon or SM SLA. Without having spent it's move or standard action yet, mind you. Meanwhile the wizard can at most quicken a SM VI or spend a full round for SM IIX.
So while summoner spellcasting is clearly more limited than the wizard's (and why shouldn't it be? casting (and knowledges) is the only thing the wizard has, while the summoner can be effective skill monkey and melee with the same build), they can pull of some crazy stuff that no other caster can.
And while save DC's are lower, for a measly 16k gold a 16th level summoner can craft a rod of metamagic (persistant), and thus 3/day cast it's highest-level spells requiring double saves. Like dominate monster. The wizard can at that point cast dominate monster too, at a 2 higher DC, but can't persist it. And 2xDC X is nearly always harder to save against than 1xDC X+2.
The most powerful thing about Summoners that others will bring up is the Synthesist archetype. I don't know where people get the idea that it's really complicated but it does encourage min/maxing score in the order of CHA>INT>WIS>CON>DEX>STR so your physical scores get replaced, but this to me is just a different way to play; if the eidolon dies, you're in melee. As a caster. Whoops.
At certain levels (many of them), the risk of the eidolon dying is far less than the risk of the fighter right next to her dying. Synthesists can have excellent AC and a crapton of HP, far more than the fighter, and in addition have two good saves and often superior mobility. This is before considering the best 2/3 casting in the game.
Synthesists are basically summoners but more defensive-minded; they lose the action economy to regular summoners, but drop essentially all the weaknesses of being a summoner (risk of Dismissal, puny pincussion caster, lousy CMD caster, distance limitations etc).
So while synths don't suffer from one of the worst things with summoners, superior action economy, they have basically no weak points at all. Like a cleric with good mobility and even more fantastic saves, and of course, a high-to-very high DPR.
Nothing powerful about the summoner has not already been complained to death in another class. Remember Druid? Yeah, Summoner is, to me, pretty much an arcane version of Druid. The Druid already had 9 levels of spells, Wild Shape, and an Animal companion. Those together are like playing a Synthesist Summoner who can also summon a separate Eidolon of slightly lesser power.
_What_? The eidolon blows animal companions out of the water! Most animal companions that are decent in melee get trumfed by something as simple as flight!
And castingwise, I would rate the summoner equal to the druid - a bit better offensively, a bit worse defensively.
summoners are not as good at spell casting as druids, and it's not close. druids have excellent buffs and more importantly battle field control spells.
the only summoner out whack is the master summoner and that just speaks of the awesomeness of summon monsters more than anything else
I think that the Summoner is broken, but not the same "broken" that you use.
I think it is broken because it does not fit the metagame of Pathfinder. Let's analyse its features :
1/ Full-caster-but-more-like-a-bard-like-caster-with-sorcerer-level-spells.
The summoner is presented as a full caster with only 6th level spells. However, it has access to spells BEFORE a sorcerer has access to the same (haste, anyone ?). It can also cast its spells with very similar power as a conjuration/summoning specialist sorcerer, despite having only 6th level spells.
Conclusion : it is a bard caster with spells that is really close to a specialized sorcerer. Its spells can also morph completely its pet (Evolution surge/transmogrify/...).
2/ Summoning spell-like ability
A summoner can, assuming its pet is not out there, summon as a standard action, for 1 minute/lvl. It is amazing, but not particularly broken, considering the use of planar ally/planar binding by other classes that use summons.
The fact that it can use this ability for 3+cha is similar as saying it can use this 7 times a day by level 1, and likely to be used 11-12 times a day at 17 level. It is strong, but again, it replaces the pet.
3/ The Eidolon
AAAAAH the eidolon : that is why you will select this class instead of another. Why ?
Because you can custom your eidolon as you want. You want a scout ? The eidolon is better than a character of its level. You want a warrior ? The eidolon can attack up to 7 times with max BAB, huge size, huge strength, power attack, pounce, ... You want a... well, you know what I mean.
It does not fit the metagame for pets : you do not have to select him from a list (for example the list in Ultimate Magic), but you can instead build it exactly as you want. It is much more versatile AND powerful than a Animal Companion, and is smarter (thus not needing Handle animal checks). It is actually better than a cohort, and flexible like nothing existing in the game.
Contrary to anything that a caster can summon, the eidolon is not an existing creature, it is exactly what its caster want it to be.
To correct this, it would have been less broken to simply allow the summoner to have a creature bound by its will (an outsider, or a creature in the list of summon monster, with bonuses), instead of a creature created by its will (like the eidolon feature).
I will pass on Summoner/eidolon features, which makes the eidolon even more resistant to damage than a warrior, and on spells that can boost the EP reserve (Evolution surge).
4/ Aspect, or how does the summoner become whatever it wants
You can steal some of your eidolon EP to use it for your summoner : +4 to your armor class OR permanent flight OR permanent immunity to one element OR permanent resistance to 2 elements OR +8 to any two skills OR tremorsense OR gills and swim OR any combination of severals, at level 10.
It is very powerful to be able to select just the powers you need, in addition to spells of almost sorcerer-level AND a superpowered pet.
[b]5/ Synthesist
It is actually very similar to Polymorph like it worked in 3.5, instead of being the polymorph way of Pathfinder. THAT is why it is broken : it does not respect any polymorph as it works in Pathfinder. Even worse : the synthesist keeps all of its powers (both from race and class) swithout having to take a feat (even the druid has to take Natural spell to do the same for example).
It is even better than the 3.5 way of polymorph, because you actually build your powers and abilities (because of the problems of the eidolon : too flexible to fit what you want), instead of having to take what already exists.
6/ Conclusion
The summoner IS broken (both rule-wise and power-wise), and the synthesist is no exception.
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i have no problems with the Eidolon. it may be an additional combatant, but it is really little more than a glass cannon assisted by another glass cannon.
for some reason, i keep imagining a little half elven girl in a fancy dress and a big hulking oddly colored bodyguard formed from semisolid goo.
My summoner is a half elven girl from the backwoods of Andoran, near the Five King's Mountains. She's grew up on a ranch and was raised by her human father. Her Eidolon was her closest friend as all her human friends kept outgrowing her. It resembles a feathered Dinosaur and she calls it her chicken. Bertie (the Eidolon), has complained that he was not allowed to join the Eagle Knights when his summoner did and is rather put out over it.
Nothing powerful about the summoner has not already been complained to death in another class. Remember Druid? Yeah, Summoner is, to me, pretty much an arcane version of Druid. The Druid already had 9 levels of spells, Wild Shape, and an Animal companion. Those together are like playing a Synthesist Summoner who can also summon a separate Eidolon of slightly lesser power.
_What_? The eidolon blows animal companions out of the water! Most animal companions that are decent in melee get trumfed by something as simple as flight!
And castingwise, I would rate the summoner equal to the druid - a bit better offensively, a bit worse defensively. (my bolding)
Melee better then an Animal Companion?
No Multi-attack til 9th level. Animal companions have it. That's a -5 on many attacks. Also, no way around most DR and a low Dmg per attack.Casting better then the Druid?
Many of the low level spells slots are filled with must haves, things like Restore Eidolon, Mage Armor, Heal Eidolon (I'll agree that it's variable how avaible things like wands of such are in each home game. But forget about seeing anything summoner related them on a chronicle sheet in PFS, though you'll have the PA to buy them).
So bluntly, no. Summoners are not overpowered.
summoners are not as good at spell casting as druids, and it's not close. druids have excellent buffs and more importantly battle field control spells.
the only summoner out whack is the master summoner and that just speaks of the awesomeness of summon monsters more than anything else
Druids with an animal companion are good casters but so are summoners. Note the (very important!) thing about how they can use metamagic rods on spells other's can't due to economics.
While they have long-term versatility that the summoner lacks, the summoner has much more short-term versatility, not the least because it has the Eidolon and evolution surge spells. It also has a much better UMD score so they can use wands etc from other classes effectively.
When it comes to combat spells, the summoners best for each level are usually one or two levels above it's actual spell level, which means they can cast it as early as other classes.
If we look at spells available to them at level 5 and 10 each, and assume a +5 and +7 stat adjustment each. I'll put together a spell list for the 10 highest spell slots for each of them. This is of course IMO, but well well...
Druid 5
3rd level (2): Sleet Storm, Greater Magic Fang.
2nd level (3): Barkskin, Gust of Wind (DC17).
1st level (5): Faerie Fire, Hydraulic Push, Longstrider, Alter Winds, Entangle (DC16)
Summoner 5
2nd level (3/day): Haste, Wind Wall, Lesser Evolution Surge.
1st level (6/day): Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Grease (DC16), Unseen Servant, Shield, Prot. from Evil.
Druid 10
5th (3): Insect Plague, Animal Growth, Wall of Thorns
4th (4): Obsidian Flow, Summon Monster IV, Moonstruck(DC21), Freedom of Movement
3rd (3): Sleet Storm, Greater Magic Fang, Spike Growth(DC20)
Summoner 10
4th (2/day): Insect Plague, Communal Stoneskin
3rd (5/day): Obsidian Flow (DC20), Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Magic Circle Against Evil, Improved Invisibility
2nd (3/day): Haste, Lesser Evolution Surge, Slow (DC19)
I tried to give them spells of similar types when assigning so they could be compared. It should be noted that the druid also can heal quite efficiently with neutralize poison etc, while the summoner has spells such as Teleport and Dimension door. But I focused on buffs and BFC as that was the strength of the druid you claimed.
Note that I gave summoners spells based on their spells per day, not their spells known; this because it would be unfair to the druid to give them full spells known with the versatility that brings when the druid doesn't get long-term versatility.
Now, both of those are clearly powerful casters. The summoner seems to be slightly behind, but not far. Now, consider the metamagic rods and how they would affect things at level 10. At that level, the WBL is 62000, so if they got the feat and spent say a modest 10k on metamagic rods, what could they get?
+1 1500 gp (lesser), 5500 gp (medium)
+2 4500 gp (lesser)
The druid wouldn't benefit that much from metamagic rods. Of course she'll have a lesser rod of extend and probably a lesser rod of reach, because they are so useful, but of the listed combat spells only sleet storm would really benefit. She could get a medium rod of extend too that would affect most of her spells but just 3/day.
The summoner on the other hand can have a lot of use out of metamagic rods. Even the cheap lesser rods of extend can affect most of her good spells like Haste and SM IV. She could even get a lesser rod of Persistant Spell to force double saves against tentacles, slow and obsidian flow. And that tentacles will be far harder to resist than any of the druids save-forcing spells.
At higher levels, the druid will have more slot advantage but the summoner will get even more use out of metamagic rods as wealth increases exponentially.
So yeah, I feel confident saying that summoner and druid are pretty even in spellcasting. If they where stripped of all other abilities but given appropriate wealth for their level, I don't know who I'd bet on.
That is of course unless the druid has a domain, in which case it gains quite a lot of power due to extra slots. But then it doesn't have a pet, and thus is far worse at everything BUT casting than the summoner.
No Multi-attack til 9th level. Animal companions have it. That's a -5 on many attacks. Also, no way around most DR and a low Dmg per attack.
It doesn't matter for the Eidolon, as most of its natural attacks can be primary ones (thus without a -5 penalty), and it can have almost the number the summoner wants (tails, claws, ...).
The DR problem and low damage issue can be overcome with size and Amulet of Mighty fists.
Many of the low level spells slots are filled with must haves
1st level spells for Eidolon : Rejuvenate eidolon (lesser ; cure 1d10+NLS).
2nd level spells for Eidolon : Evolution surge (lesser ; 2 EP), summon eidolon (to summon it WITH your summoned monsters).3rd level spells for Eidolon : Evolution surge (4 EP)
So, a 1st level summoner have Rejuvenate eidolon and another 1st level spell (Grease ? Mage armor ? ... ?)
A 5th level summoner knows 5 level 1 spells (so, 4 that are not Eidolon based), and 3 level 2 spells (likely Haste, and the 2 it needs for his eidolon).
Indeed, it is filled by must-have, but they are great must-have. And it is in addition to his pet (which is likely to be a second PC at any level).
And the fact of having "must-have" spells isn't a problem. If they are must-have, it is that they are better than others anyway.
So bluntly, no. Summoners are not overpowered.
I can't tell if they are overpowered (it would need much more than only statistics). However, I can tell for sure that they do not use the same rules as all other classes. And only by such, they are broken.
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Personally I think Master Summoner is one of the sexiest classes I have even seen. But I have a special place in my heart for summon monster.
Now I think a Master Summoner can rival clerics, wizards, and druids in terms of effectiveness, but I also feel that a properly built and played 9lvl full caster will be more useful and more powerful than a Master Summoner. I also think I fighter will be able to dish out more melee damage than a Master Summoners summons. Their to hit is low and a tanky BBEG will be protected from a lot of there attacks.
In the end I think a Master summoner is somewhere between a real caster and a martial build. They rock consistently from lvl 1 and don't get left behind by the big three at higher levels.
No they're not broken, but an inexperience player will stall combat.
I also dislike Eidolons, I think they are a distraction from that wonderful SLA they have.
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Avh: They really don't need rejuvenate eidolon. The wands are dirt cheap. If you choose to learn it anyway for the first levels, just unlearn it as soon as you have cash to buy wands.
I already pointed that out: to continue summoning the horde you require spell known slots to be taken up, and summoning in that way isn't keyed to the class so it goes by the less powerful round per level duration and round casting.
But you compared it to wizard summoning. And that's the way wizards summon. Or are you saying summoners are worse than wizards at summoning because not ALL of a summoners spells are fast-cast minutes/level?
No, don't compare it to the animal companion. We're looking at simple Caster vs. Melee here. Assuming the best scenario, the Summoner can summon a creature, then summon his eidolon (that syntax in that order is technically legal so for a few rounds you have Eidolon + 1 summon). The summon can be melee or have SLAs that are desirable, true. However, the Druid can Wild Shape into things like Arsinoitherium fairly early. Sure they got a nerf from 3.5 that was necessary but they still have as many options, whether they want to become something poisonous, brutish, or small and stealthy. Plus, Animal Companions aren't trumped by flight. They can be trained to accept a 4th level Druid spell known as Air Walk, so flight's not stopping a fleshraker facemunch.
Actually, if you're a caster druid, you'll suck at melee while wildshaped. If you're up-statted for combat, then the summoner will have better casting for you.
Druids have to pretty much choose between being good caster+bad melee or decent caster+decent melee.EDIT: Oh, and I forgot. Air walk is kinda "meh".
"The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground. Moving upward is similar to walking up a hill. The maximum upward or downward angle possible is 45 degrees, at a rate equal to half the air walker's normal speed."
So not only will speed be mediocre compared to most flying creatures, you also have much less downward movement options. And of course, it requires a level 4 spell slot, which is comparable to Evolution Surge that takes a 3rd level spell slot. And evolution surge does so much more.
Wild Shape is less beefy but more versatile than the Eidolon (and serves the same purpose Synthesist Eidolon serves), but the...
I don't really see how it's so much more versatile. It takes a single spell to give about any evolution to the eidolon, which sure it's a spell but the eidolon will actually kick ass in combat in that situation which the druid won't.
Wild shape is powerful if you're built for it (often starting out with a wisdom of 14 or so) but if you're built for casting at least equally well to a summoner (that is, AC rather than domain but a good casting stat) wild shape is basically just useful out of combat and for all day flight (which is good, but requires a feat to use successfully in combat).
And you saw my comparison of druid/summoner casting above. That was for a casting druid and casting summoner. Feel free to critique it, but just stating "druid casting is better" without arguing why doesn't get very far.
We could even do builds to compare, you do a druid at X level and I do a summoner at X level. Any level below 15 is fine with me.
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I wonder, if summoners had the limitation that they could only summon their eidolons for two rounds per summoner level plus their charisma bonus per day(similar to how the barbarian's rage works), would this make the class better balanced.. Most the arguments I'm seeing against summoners is actually against the eidolon, limiting it so it's not a all day effect makes sense, rather then taking away the cool evolutions.
Actually,I personally wouldn't mind this, since I like the idea of the eidolons being extremely powerful but difficult to control. However given some of the responses I think the dislike of the summoner has little to do with how powerful they are as a whole, and more to do with play style. I've noticed that some GM's like to run a tight ship (ie. know exactly what players bring to the table) and the summoner challenges that due to the open design nature of the eidolon. Anyway, most groups allow them and I never seen a summoner do anything more absurd then a wizard or druid, so well who cares what a vocal minority of GM's are doing.
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I wonder, if summoners had the limitation that they could only summon their eidolons for two rounds per summoner level plus their charisma bonus per day(similar to how the barbarian's rage works), would this make the class better balanced.. Most the arguments I'm seeing against summoners is actually against the eidolon, limiting it so it's not a all day effect makes sense, rather then taking away the cool evolutions.
I personally think this would underpower the summoner. Plus the minute to summon would be a weakness.
Actually,I personally wouldn't mind this, since I like the idea of the eidolons being extremely powerful but difficult to control. However given some of the responses I think the dislike of the summoner has little to do with how powerful they are as a whole, and more to do with play style. I've noticed that some GM's like to run a tight ship (ie. know exactly what players bring to the table) and the summoner challenges that due to the open design nature of the eidolon. Anyway, most groups allow them and I never seen a summoner do anything more absurd then a wizard or druid, so well who cares what a vocal minority of GM's are doing.
Agreed.
I wonder, if summoners had the limitation that they could only summon their eidolons for two rounds per summoner level plus their charisma bonus per day(similar to how the barbarian's rage works), would this make the class better balanced.. Most the arguments I'm seeing against summoners is actually against the eidolon, limiting it so it's not a all day effect makes sense, rather then taking away the cool evolutions.
I think that's a bad way to balance it as it removes a lot of flavor from the summoner reduces the number of concepts severely.
The largest issue with the summoner, as I see it, is how you can stack evolutions to get a large amount of powerful natural attacks, and later combine them with poweful melee attacks (like, huge greatsword for iteratives and huge claws and bite after that). Pounce is also far too easily accessed.
I like the idea of the eidolons being extremely powerful but difficult to control.
The thing is, it limits it to that niche, which can already be accessed with summoning spells, planar bindings etc. Look at this thread; most concepts there couldn't work with so short summoning duration.
Oh, and when it's the same duration as the barb/bard abilities, it gets to the point where it affects all combats pretty fast, and then you have just as powerful ability but with less flavor options.
I wonder, if summoners had the limitation that they could only summon their eidolons for two rounds per summoner level plus their charisma bonus per day(similar to how the barbarian's rage works), would this make the class better balanced.. Most the arguments I'm seeing against summoners is actually against the eidolon, limiting it so it's not a all day effect makes sense, rather then taking away the cool evolutions.I personally think this would underpower the summoner. Plus the minute to summon would be a weakness.
Actually,I personally wouldn't mind this, since I like the idea of the eidolons being extremely powerful but difficult to control. However given some of the responses I think the dislike of the summoner has little to do with how powerful they are as a whole, and more to do with play style. I've noticed that some GM's like to run a tight ship (ie. know exactly what players bring to the table) and the summoner challenges that due to the open design nature of the eidolon. Anyway, most groups allow them and I never seen a summoner do anything more absurd then a wizard or druid, so well who cares what a vocal minority of GM's are doing.Agreed.
I do not think it is a vocal minority, I play with and host a few groups and several games, though just one on a weekly basis, but none of them seem to like the summoner. I am the only one allowing one to play in my game and I do not like the mechanics (and honestly I will just skip them next time).
While here on the boards it 'might' be a vocal minority, I think the summoner gets houseruled on a lot in homebrew games.
BTW I allow summoners at my table, but require a look-through of the charsheet (as I do with all chars) to check if the builds legal (none of my players cheat, but the summoner is easy to get wrong) and not overpowering compared to the other chars.
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BTW I allow summoners at my table, but require a look-through of the charsheet (as I do with all chars) to check if the builds legal (none of my players cheat, but the summoner is easy to get wrong) and not overpowering compared to the other chars.
Same'd.
I like summoners and eidolons for the flavor possibilities alone. They just need to be handled with care.
i have no problem with summoners. all the overpoweredness comes from illegal eidolons.
i have no problem with summoners. all the overpoweredness comes from illegal eidolons.
Personally I think all the overpoweredness comes from the clunky mechanics and poor balancing, my main issues are with the lack of flavor of the eidolon as a creature and summon spells in general.
A few things I dislike with the summoner :
1) it is a mixed bag of flavorless buffs and other spells, picking a bit from the druid, cleric, wizard and some of it's own to give him buffing capacity, it is not so much a fun, thematic spell list as a mechanically advantageous one mixed with a few that it could do without or at higher levels.
2) some of the evolutions throw off the balance of the eidolon easily, the simplest being the natural armor boost, it makes it too easy to make an eidolon beat just about any character with a superior AC and that without magical items.
A large eidolon is a no brainer, it gives too much for the points it costs and other flavorful powers are way too expensive to be practical choices.
3) The point system does not leave room for a natural evolution to higher powers, you end up dropping powers to get higher level ones, not always a smooth transition.
4) The custom minion idea kinda turns me off, not so much you can customize it at all but that you can completely change it during play instead of having it evolve.
1) the spells though flavorless, are all stuff that would make sense for a summoning oriented character to take. summons to bring creatures, buffs to improve the summons, and battlefield control to support the summons
2) AC isn't the only defense that matters, there is also hit points, saving throws, touch AC, CMD, and Miss Chances. Eidolons typically have a combination of Bad Saves, Poor HP, and Lousy Touch AC. plus they are vulnerable to dismissal and similar effects
3) i have a problem with that too. the transition isn't quite smooth, but when a creature evolves, sometimes the old powers are lost in favor of newer, better ones. it is like the megladon, to adapt to it's lessened food supply, it had to grow smaller, but in exchange, it grew smarter and developed special heightened senses to a degree it once couldn't accomplish before.
4) i like custom minions, but a lot of the eidolon's options are not really options as much as they are forced options. like large size. large size is an evolution tax on the eidolon that has to be payed for it to remain an effective combatant. much like how natural spell is a feat tax for druids or adaptive style is a feat tax for swordsages.
my main issues are with the lack of flavor of the eidolon as a creature and summon spells in general.
Wait... what? You actually find the ability to completely build up a creature's appearance and functionality and origin and whatever else, to fit nearly any concept you can imagine, to be a lack of flavor?
I mean, yeah, it's kind of a 'blank-slate' type of deal, but the eidolon's customizability for flavor is one of my favorite things about it. You put your own spin into it, and have pretty much full control over the design and how it fits in, etc. I'm way on the opposite end from considering that to be a problem :/
Edit: Lumiere pretty much brings up the same things I would about your other points.
In regards to 3 and 4 though, I don't find them to be that bad. You can easily think of it as a burst of power that the eidolon gets access too (leveling up) and the summoner uses that to alter it, while its in a more mutable state. Though completely redesigning it between levels is something I doubt I would personally do.
I must agree with annoyingorange : the eidolon is so flexible that it has no flavor by itself.
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my main issues are with the lack of flavor of the eidolon as a creature and summon spells in general.Wait... what? You actually find the ability to completely build up a creature's appearance and functionality and origin and whatever else, to fit nearly any concept you can imagine, to be a lack of flavor?
I mean, yeah, it's kind of a 'blank-slate' type of deal, but the eidolon's customizability for flavor is one of my favorite things about it. You put your own spin into it, and have pretty much full control over the design and how it fits in, etc. I'm way on the opposite end from considering that to be a problem :/
Fer instance. Can't do that with a conjuration wizard. ;)
Also:
Guardian angel
Imaginary friend that grew up as harsh as the child that imagined it.
Infernal overseer sent to make sure that its assigned diabolist carries out his end of the pact.
From a couple of friends' personal game: An outsider jammed into the body of a mortal sacrifice who are slowly merging into one being, which terrifies both of them.
Bound genie that's been passed down through the family.
Manifested totem/guardian spirit of your tribe.
The lingering spirit of a dead loved one.
A freaking bioweapon that sychronized with you after cracking open a piece of Numerian wreckage.
And on and on and on.
This is a good thing. Locking the Eidolon into a tightly focused flavor runs the risk of ruining all of that, potentially really turning it into a "here are my pokemons let me show you them" class.
I like to think of there being a loose order of Summoners and Eidolons in Dehrukani(in South Garund), where azata/eidolon attunement is treated as a sacred art. Hell, it's almost been confirmed to be the class to represent the God-Callers of Old Sarkoris.
@Mikaze : it would if the eidolon wasn't so flexible.
It can be a devil one level, an angel the next, a dragon the one after, ... It is not fixed, and even with those archetypes in mind, you could have a dragon with 8 arms, 2 tails and 3 heads, who can pounce : it's even easy to do it.
That is why it does not have flavor : you can do whatever you want, without having limits on what you can add to what creatures/archetypes.
Fer instance. Can't do that with a conjuration wizard. ;)
*Other awesomeness*
I recall reading that linked one before actually, and I do think that's a nice example of this :P As are the others.
It can be a devil one level, an angel the next, a dragon the one after, ...
That sounds like a bit of an exaggeration and more suitable for someone who's just not interested in sticking to one thing with their character. Players can cause similar disruption in that way with anything, just by virtue of whether or not they follow a character's personality/backstory in a reasonable fashion.
It is not fixed, and even with those archetypes in mind, you could have a dragon with 8 arms, 2 tails and 3 heads, who can pounce : it's even easy to do it.
And if that would fit a player's concept for their eidolon, what's the problem?
Actually, back to the devil, angel, etc. bit, I can think of a number of ways that could actually fit quite well. A devil and angel pair, switching level after level, could be manifestations of a person's psyche, one drawn towards evil, and the other towards good, with each trying to turn the summoner toward their own view and away from the other (side note, I actually came up with just such an idea some time ago, except it was a couatl/aghasura to keep a snake theme. No reason a devil/angel wouldn't work though).
Likewise, if you want to throw others into the mix, maybe the summoner just pulls random aspects of their subconscious into being when they summon, and so the eidolon (or eidolons?) shifts often. Maybe they pull not from a single plane when calling their eidolon, but a conglomerate of many. Heck, maybe they're just summoning something from Limbo.
As I said before, the flavor for an eidolon is pretty much whatever you could possibly imagine, and I personally find that to be a good thing. But of course, to each their own.
1) the spells though flavorless, are all stuff that would make sense for a summoning oriented character to take. summons to bring creatures, buffs to improve the summons, and battlefield control to support the summons
2) AC isn't the only defense that matters, there is also hit points, saving throws, touch AC, CMD, and Miss Chances. Eidolons typically have a combination of Bad Saves, Poor HP, and Lousy Touch AC. plus they are vulnerable to dismissal and similar effects
3) i have a problem with that too. the transition isn't quite smooth, but when a creature evolves, sometimes the old powers are lost in favor of newer, better ones. it is like the megladon, to adapt to it's lessened food supply, it had to grow smaller, but in exchange, it grew smarter and developed special heightened senses to a degree it once couldn't accomplish before.
4) i like custom minions, but a lot of the eidolon's options are not really options as much as they are forced options. like large size. large size is an evolution tax on the eidolon that has to be payed for it to remain an effective combatant. much like how natural spell is a feat tax for druids or adaptive style is a feat tax for swordsages.
1) The type of spells sort of makes sense, though I think it tries to get a bit too much, it has mage armor but for some reason also needs barkskin on it's list, it has to be able to create demiplanes.. or dominate monsters in addition to summoning them.. ? Daze monster sucks either way, but why in particular is it a level 1 spell for the summoner, etc...
2) I agree AC isn't the only thing that matters but that doesn't make it good design, it is easy to make it almost impossible to hit, but a will save is almost a guaranteed fail, a little more in some areas and some less in AC would have been better.
3) I guess we mostly agree on this one.
4) yea, forced option to grow large if you want to be of consequence in combat, I don't get why that option isn't less expensive and less powerful. You get reach on all attack (1 or 2 points ?), Your damage dice increases for all attacks (1 or 2 points ?), you gain +8 strength (8 points), you gain +4 constitution (4 points), the rest kind sorts itself out with a net 0 AC bonus and bonus/penalty on skills, a -1 to hit and reflex save. At least 12 points of evolution points worth, the package is a bit too good to pass up to not play a hulking brute. Flavorful options are rarely picked, because they are suboptimal choices.
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my main issues are with the lack of flavor of the eidolon as a creature and summon spells in general.Wait... what? You actually find the ability to completely build up a creature's appearance and functionality and origin and whatever else, to fit nearly any concept you can imagine, to be a lack of flavor?
I mean, yeah, it's kind of a 'blank-slate' type of deal, but the eidolon's customizability for flavor is one of my favorite things about it. You put your own spin into it, and have pretty much full control over the design and how it fits in, etc. I'm way on the opposite end from considering that to be a problem :/
Fer instance. Can't do that with a conjuration wizard. ;)
Also:
Guardian angel
Imaginary friend that grew up as harsh as the child that imagined it.
Infernal overseer sent to make sure that its assigned diabolist carries out his end of the pact.
From a couple of friends' personal game: An outsider jammed into the body of a mortal sacrifice who are slowly merging into one being, which terrifies both of them.
Bound genie that's been passed down through the family.
Manifested totem/guardian spirit of your tribe.
The lingering spirit of a dead loved one.
A freaking bioweapon that sychronized with you after cracking open a piece of Numerian wreckage.
And on and on and on.
This is a good thing. Locking the Eidolon into a tightly focused flavor runs the risk of ruining all of that, potentially really turning it into a "here are my pokemons let me show you them" class.
I like to think of there being a loose order of Summoners and Eidolons in Dehrukani(in South Garund), where azata/eidolon attunement is treated as a sacred art. Hell, it's almost been confirmed to be the class to represent the God-Callers of Old Sarkoris.
Well it is has that amount of flexibility but it is not the real thing. It can not really be a devil without any of the devil traits, you can kinda fake some by giving immunity to fire, some resistances and the like but you can only ever hope to approximate the devilish qualities and if you do it will generally suck.
You end up trapped between something flavorless but efficient or something that 'kinda' resembles a devil.. eventually but is just not that great.I do not like this because it makes the summoner it's own thing with no ties to the rest of the system as a whole, you can make a devil themed eidolon but it is not a devil like the rest of the world understands it.
It is best described as an imaginary friend come to life from your imagination.. it's something created without any real roots in the campaign world, it robs it of much flavor.
The synthesist summoner with 3 dump stats is verifiably broken.If that is the yard stick, Fighters are broken as well.Fighters can't get Pounce, Evasion, 40ft movement, +6 NA, 3 attacks per round and Darkvision at 2nd level.
We've been through this before.
I agree, darkvision is overpowered.
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Well it is has that amount of flexibility but it is not the real thing. It can not really be a devil without any of the devil traits, you can kinda fake some by giving immunity to fire, some resistances and the like but you can only ever hope to approximate the devilish qualities and if you do it will generally suck.
You end up trapped between something flavorless but efficient or something that 'kinda' resembles a devil.. eventually but is just not that great.
I do not like this because it makes the summoner it's own thing with no ties to the rest of the system as a whole, you can make a devil themed eidolon but it is not a devil like the rest of the world understands it.
It is best described as an imaginary friend come to life from your imagination.. it's something created without any real roots in the campaign world, it robs it of much flavor.
Those traits can be approximated. That's all you need mechanically to shore up the flavor.
Having an inexact match for mechanics does not make something flavorless. And having a flavorful eidolon is not sentencing it to "not that great".
And you absolutely can root your Eidolon in the campaign setting. In a countless number of ways.
Honestly, this comes across like:
"Those eidolons don't have much flavor"
>:(
Hell, I'm tempted to start a "Summoners and Eidolons of Golarion" thread just because this argument is irking me that much. Apparently all of the people playing God-Callers in Wrath of the Righteous later this year will be playing "flavorless" characters.
The idea that all of the work a player/GM puts into the flavor for their characters and building their mechanics around it suddenly resulting in them "not having much flavor" because something isn't an exact mechanical match is downright alien to me.
Is the Summoner/Eidolon concept linked earlier in this page flavorless? Was the goblin tribe's demonic guardian shaped into a warped image of Lamashtu that I threw at the PCs flavorless just because it was made as an Eidolon?
Darkvision is overpowered? Really? - If so does that mean that half-orcs and dwarves are overpowered because they get it?
Flavor - I think the eidolon pretty much has the flavor you give it. Unimaginative players are likely to generate unimaginative eidolons. This isn't a lot different from how some players make very bland PCs. Imaginative players could use the Eidolon class feature as a way to express their own unique vision. The Summoner enhances creative potential rather than diminishing it since it allows many things which might otherwise be impossible or hopelessly subpar.
Summoner Hate - I wonder if maybe the problem is a general dislike of summoning among many players and DMs. I think there's an opinion out there that PCs should take their own lumps instead of hiding behind summoned minions. Summoned monsters can also take a lot of time to run, especially if the player failed to print out the stats of all monsters he or she might summon. Differing expectations about what makes the game exciting and fun certainly might make some folks dislike the Summoner, but it doesn't really make it "overpowered".
"Eidolon Steals Fighter's Spotlight!" - Maybe the Fighter doesn't really have a spotlight to steal. The Fighter is one of the most maligned and complained about classes in the game. It seems like there are almost as many threads about how it is underpowered as there are about how Summoners are overpowered, so the constant comparison of the Eidolon to the Fighter seems like a big miss to me.
It is like comparing wood lobster tails and filet mignon to microwave pizza. Some folks might feel that everybody's meal (or PC's class) has to be roughly equal in quality, so if they don't like lobster and filet mignon then I'm supposed to eat microwaved chicken nuggets with ketchup so that my food won't be "overpowered". If you don't like lobster then I shouldn't eat it. You might come up with some bad stuff to say about lobster like "It has lots of cholesterol". That might be a valid criticism, but it is tough to take when there's somebody across the table eating a Big Mac (or maybe playing a Druid with a big cat)
<chuckle>
Imagine being the poor DM who has both a Summoner and a Druid (with a big cat) as characters...(then throw in a Ranger with Boon Companion...)
I'd think that the DM might actually sort of enjoy the availability of targets with low HP and low Will saves (not to mention the logistical problems of having all those big creatures in tight spaces). If there were other players who tend to have short turns they certainly might get a little bored watching those PCs and their pets make 20+ attacks in a round while they wait though.
Darkvision is overpowered? Really? - If so does that mean that half-orcs and dwarves are overpowered because they get it?
Flavor - I think the eidolon pretty much has the flavor you give it. Unimaginative players are likely to generate unimaginative eidolons. This isn't a lot different from how some players make very bland PCs. Imaginative players could use the Eidolon class feature as a way to express their own unique vision. The Summoner enhances creative potential rather than diminishing it since it allows many things which might otherwise be impossible or hopelessly subpar.
Summoner Hate - I wonder if maybe the problem is a general dislike of summoning among many players and DMs. I think there's an opinion out there that PCs should take their own lumps instead of hiding behind summoned minions. Summoned monsters can also take a lot of time to run, especially if the player failed to print out the stats of all monsters he or she might summon. Differing expectations about what makes the game exciting and fun certainly might make some folks dislike the Summoner, but it doesn't really make it "overpowered".
"Eidolon Steals Fighter's Spotlight!" - Maybe the Fighter doesn't really have a spotlight to steal. The Fighter is one of the most maligned and complained about classes in the game. It seems like there are almost as many threads about how it is underpowered as there are about how Summoners are overpowered, so the constant comparison of the Eidolon to the Fighter seems like a big miss to me.
It is like comparing wood lobster tails and filet mignon to microwave pizza. Some folks might feel that everybody's meal (or PC's class) has to be roughly equal in quality, so if they don't like lobster and filet mignon then I'm supposed to eat microwaved chicken nuggets with ketchup so that my food won't be "overpowered". If you don't like lobster then I shouldn't eat it. You might come up with some bad stuff to say about lobster like "It has lots of cholesterol". That might be a valid criticism, but it is...
I hope you understand that part about the darkvision was a joke right ?
"Eidolon Steals Fighter's Spotlight!" - Maybe the Fighter doesn't really have a spotlight to steal. The Fighter is one of the most maligned and complained about classes in the game. It seems like there are almost as many threads about how it is underpowered as there are about how Summoners are overpowered, so the constant comparison of the Eidolon to the Fighter seems like a big miss to me.
When comparing fighter to synthesist (which is what it should probably be compared to) the issue is that the synth is about as good a front-liner as the fighter (better at some levels) while at the same time being about as skilled as a rogue and the hands-down best non-full-caster in the game.
Summoner Hate - I wonder if maybe the problem is a general dislike of summoning among many players and DMs. I think there's an opinion out there that PCs should take their own lumps instead of hiding behind summoned minions. Summoned monsters can also take a lot of time to run, especially if the player failed to print out the stats of all monsters he or she might summon. Differing expectations about what makes the game exciting and fun certainly might make some folks dislike the Summoner, but it doesn't really make it "overpowered".
You are right in the regard that I am not a fan of summoning in general, here too I do not like the flavor (sorry Mikaze), you summon a creature to you for typically 2 minutes or less, this creature has no background, no name, and is nothing but cannon fodder or an utility tool. It is not clear where they come from or where they go when done, it is entirely inconsequential how you treat it or whether it dies or not.
I find 'pick a creature from this list' not really a great system, it damages the exotic nature of extra planar creatures and encourages players to become familiar with their stats. Calling spells I have much more appreciation for though, it is not easy and doesn't cheapen the creatures that much. They have names, history and an actual tie with the campaign world which can be built on. I suppose it is an extension of the magic shop culture that bothers me a bit.
while at the same time being about as skilled as a rogue and the hands-down best non-full-caster in the game.I'd dispute that, and discount it entirely if they didn't have Haste as a level 2 spell.
Bards are much more useful, in my experience.
Bards are pretty good, but the summoner spell list is more versatile, at least the bard plays nice with other people making it less of an issue in general, summoners have a tendency to outdo other characters (in action economy, DPR, versatility and utility).
Interesting point, the Summoner's spellcasting and SLA abilities' origins are never very well defined - presumably they come from the same source as the Eidolon (Monsters of the Id?). It could be explained away ([url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw]Hi, I'm Angel Summoner[/u])but isn't in the standard class...Summoner Hate - I wonder if maybe the problem is a general dislike of summoning among many players and DMs. I think there's an opinion out there that PCs should take their own lumps instead of hiding behind summoned minions. Summoned monsters can also take a lot of time to run, especially if the player failed to print out the stats of all monsters he or she might summon. Differing expectations about what makes the game exciting and fun certainly might make some folks dislike the Summoner, but it doesn't really make it "overpowered".You are right in the regard that I am not a fan of summoning in general, here too I do not like the flavor (sorry Mikaze), you summon a creature to you for typically 2 minutes or less, this creature has no background, no name, and is nothing but cannon fodder or an utility tool. It is not clear where they come from or where they go when done, it is entirely inconsequential how you treat it or whether it dies or not.
I find 'pick a creature from this list' not really a great system, it damages the exotic nature of extra planar creatures and encourages players to become familiar with their stats. Calling spells I have much more appreciation for though, it is not easy and doesn't cheapen the creatures that much. They have names, history and an actual tie with the campaign world which can be built on. I suppose it is an extension of the magic shop culture that bothers me a bit.
While it was very entertaining to watch it didn't explain lot. ^_^
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The "as written" explanation for the Summoner's powers isn't very coherent. You can make a coherent reason, but the RAW isn't.
Agreed, and that is the beauty of the class. Summoners I've encountered include--
A giant teddy bear based off a childhood toy.
A romantic couple, husband summoner and wife eidolon.
Summoner who is deluded into believing her eidolon is her child who asks questions like 'Are the sewers a safe enviroment for a child'.
Childhood friend/hunting companion to a lonely half elven girl (mine).
A synthesist who is possessed/guided by a guardian family spirit.
Basically you can come up with whatever logic they want for who and what your eidolon is. For people, like me, this is the most wonderful part of the class.
Others like things spelled out. For those people there should have been some archetypes to make the eidolon more infernal/heavenly/abyssal whatever. After all, they can come up Druid/shaman archtypes for every frickin mammal bird/reptile in existence other than monotremes. They should have come up with a few balanced archetypes for summoners.
But they didn't. And the paltry number of, and lack of quality of said archetypes very much annoys me.
Agreed, and that is the beauty of the class. Summoners I've encountered include--
I'll add one for you, my master summoner has that monster hunter trait. His eldion looks like the succubus he loved that killed his brother and got him basically kicked out of the family.
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Aww, is the fighter feeling outmatched and underpowered?
My mage astral projects from his private dimension, casts Time Stop, Gates in four Solars, casts Bigby's Middle Finger at the fighter, and leaves to do something more interesting.
So you were talking about Summoners being broken? Please continue.
Seriously, the problem as always, isn't that commoners are overpowered our unbalanced. The problem lies with fighters and rogues.