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I want the Eastern flavour monk to go away. If the monk is ever to be a true class alongside barbarian, fighter, ranger (who can come from so many different backgrounds and incorporate many different styles), then I would want this:
No more monk weapons. Monks have simple weapon proficiency, and can flurry with any weapon they are proficient with. A feat spent to learn a weapon, or a class dip, would allow flurrying with that weapon as well.
If that seems too powerful, then stagger it: At 1st level, a monk may flurry with all simple weapons he is proficient with. At 5th level a monk may flurry with any martial weapon he is proficient with. At 9th level he gains the ability to flurry with any weapon he is proficient with.
This would allow flurry of shortspears, unarmed strikes, short swords, longswords, etc. You would be able to build a monk who uses traditional monk weapons (after all, a kama is basically a sickle and a siangham is basically a very short spear), but you would also be able to build the unarmoured Taldan duelist who uses a rapier for many quick strikes. A dervish from Qadira could flurry with a scimitar, and a knife fighter could make use of a dagger to turn his opponent into a pin cushion (in melee, or at range!).
Oh, and d10 hit dice and full BAB to keep them up with other warrior types.
Not explicitly for the later stuff like Temple Swords etc.They aren't?All I want for monks is that they be proficient in all monk weapons.
Monks ARE proficient with Temple Swords. Or at least they are as of the Temple Sword entry in Ultimate Equipment... not sure if that is a change or how it always was.
Temple Swords are normally lighter IRL than a "Longsword".
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Okay, but I was speaking in terms of mechanics. In those terms, a temple sword is a longsword that you can flurry with, along with getting the trip property as a bonus. The monk is proficient with it for free as well.
I want a flavour-free monk, so that I can bring my own character's flavour into the class. If that means flurrying with a longsword, you can't really say that's unbalanced, because it's already possible.
Just re-flavour the Temple Sword as a Longsword.
Ok so I correct my statement. They can keep Evasion and the like. I just feel their immunities could be better applied to things that their good saves don't really cover for them.
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Just re-flavour the Temple Sword as a Longsword.
I feel like that's absolutely backward. We have a class with too much flavour. The monk has so much inherent and inflexible flavour that I have to change the extra special sword into the regular sword just so I can use it. Furthermore, your solution excludes all those who participate in Organized play.
If the monk was simply able to flurry with all weapons he was proficient with, there would really be no issue.
How about this: We drop the current monk and create a new Monk based on how Europeon Monks really were.
Oh wait we do. They are called Clerics!
The Monk is the Monk because it draws on so much Lore and Fluff. If you de flavor it you might as well remove it. They aren't over-fluffed. And mt solution doesn't exclude organized play. Just because the sheet says Temple Sword doesn't mean they can't say it is a modified Longsword.
It'd be interesting if a Monk could pick a group of weapons at level 1 to stick with. He can Flurry with any weapon in that group.
Eastern and Western. Eastern is what's currently in there and Western is stuff like the Longsword and Shortbow.
Though Western Monks would really honestly need entirely different class features.
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From that statement, I feel like you lack some understanding on PFS: No reflavouring, no reskinning. If someone at my PFS table says "I have a monk that uses a longsword, but really it's a temple sword", I am not allowed to accept that. Whether you agree or disagree with that rule is immaterial to this discussion, but understand that any reflavouring or "Ask your GM" solution is exclusionary to Organized Play.
For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
I'm not really seeing any Eastern flavour from the description. Does it all come from the name? Why can't I have a warrior-artist, ascetic, or monk who uses a rapier and hones his body and mind to perfection?
That is Eastern Monks because Western Monks were Scholars, Priests, and Philosophers.
True Western Monks never trained for Martial Warfare. Eastern Monks did.
If a Western Monk trained for Combat it was usually as a last resort or because they were a Chaplain(Combat Priest) and trained to give last rights on a battlefield. And even then they were only allowed a Bow or Crossbow with a special type of Mace/Dagger.
Eastern Monks=3.5/Pathfinder Monks.
Western Monks(Standard)=3.5/Pathfinder Wizards/Adepts/Non-Combat Clerics(or the Tome of Secrets Priest)
Western Monks(Chaplain)=3.5/Pathfinder Wizards/Oracles/Sorcerers/Cleric.
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Okay, but tell me why there needs to be Eastern flavour in the monk in the game of Pathfinder. I'm just not seeing the need at all.
Especially if you can create an Eastern-style monk with a more generic monk, isn't it more conducive to the freedom that should be inherent in a tabletop RPG to remove flavour restrictions like this? Why is a set of class mechanics only proficient with _____ flavour weapons?
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Retool Monk into an Oracle-type set-up i.e. you have a standard oracle template with generic slots that you then fill with options from your Oracle Mystery.
So, you would select monk as your class, then choose a school that fits your build idea (current monk archetypes would be transitioned to schools). You would further customize your character as you level up as there would no longer be any default ki powers and you would choose them as you level up (ala the Qinggong monk mechanic).
Secondly, allow the spending of 1 Ki Point to allow the monk to make a move action and then flurry.
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Retool Monk into an Oracle-type set-up i.e. you have a standard oracle template with generic slots that you then fill with options from your Oracle Mystery.
So, you would select monk as your class, then choose a school that fits your build idea (current monk archetypes would be transitioned to schools). You would further customize your character as you level up as there would no longer be any default ki powers and you would choose them as you level up (ala the Qinggong monk mechanic).
Secondly, allow the spending of 1 Ki Point to allow the monk to make a move action and then flurry.
This person knows where it's at.
The eastern monk can be one flavour and it can be proficient with certain weapons: sickle, kama, quarterstaff, temple sword if you like. A fencer could be another version who can use the longsword and rapier. You could make similar schools of study for a tavern brawler and a tribal spearfighter.
How about Ascetic Warrior instead of Monk?
The reason is more to do with Legacy and a missing hero type..
Every other class can easily be fluffed as a Eastern Hero. The one that was missing was the Eastern Style Hand-To-Hand Fighter who mastered a Small but versatile array of weapons.
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@Mergy: I think you mean "Ascetic Warrior".
An Aesthetic Warrior is like those guys from the Queer Eye.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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How about this: We drop the current monk and create a new Monk based on how Europeon Monks really were.
Oh wait we do. They are called Experts!
The Monk is the Monk because it draws on so much Lore and Fluff. If you de flavor it you might as well remove it. They aren't over-fluffed. And mt solution doesn't exclude organized play. Just because the sheet says Temple Sword doesn't mean they can't say it is a modified Longsword.
Slight correction :) (unless the European monks were going around casting spells while no one was looking?)
Actually they were Alchemists and Priests. They supposedly used Divine Magic.
But yeah you are right Expert or maybe even a Rogue would fit historically. Especially when you look into some Germanic Monasteries as they had some gruesome traps.
In Pathfinder though Cleric fits them best. Or as I said Alchemist would as well.
I am having a horrible time getting my point across ain't I...
I actually agree with you. I am just stating I can understand the reasons why it is the way it is.
Personally, I think Martial Artist Archetype Monk should be the Core Monk. With every other Monk evolving from that.
But then again, what is the upside of making the Monk multi-hemispherical?
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But then again, what is the upside of making the Monk multi-hemispherical?
The upside is people like me who want the monk's abilities (flurry of blows, ki pool, etc.), but want to be a Taldan duelist or a Mwangi spearfighter, are able to use the monk mechanics and apply our own flavour to the class.
How about allowing a monk to take all their attacks during a move, but they have to move between each attack?
You have 3 attacks, 50 feet of movement: attack, move, attack, move attack, move. Or move, attack, move, attack, move attack, move if you have movement left over. You only provoke if you miss the attack.
Very mobile, effective to keep other things busy while the party focuses more of their attention on bigger things, yet still effective.
What about an ability like the 3.x Feat Travel Devotion.
Say a Feat that grants this but shorten the time it is active to 1+1 round/level. Usable once per day unless the Monk spends 1 or 2 Ki points on another use of the ability. A Cleric a use of Channel Energy and a Paladin Lay On Hands.
How about that?
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don't want:
1) full BAB + d10 HD
2) WIS to hit, or WIS/DEX to damage
3) extra ki
do want:
4) more emphasis on mobility
5) discreteness of flurry mechanic
6) overall flexibility/customization
why:
1) i like the 1E precedent that monks are somewhat fragile but can compensate using special training and abilities. i mean, they are unarmed and unarmored, whereas there foes often are not! this reinforces the mystic pacifist concept. (plus see #3)
2) there are other ways to reduce multiple ability dependency (MAD). just tacking on another stat-substitution feels cheap - once it begins, where does it end? (i am aware and am not a fan of other classes/archetypes that do this - and realize that "if other classes get to, why can't i?" is regretfully a valid argument)
3) ki should be a finite but powerful resource - it should transform the fragile, pacifist monk into a force to be reckoned with.
4) agreed with other posters about the interaction between flurry and fast movement, as well as other class features. there should be mechanical incentive for the monk to move around a battlefield.
5) flurry, as a mechanic, should feel unique. not just a rip-off of two-weapon fighting (TWF). it should feel special not unlike barbarian rage, ranger favored enemy, paladin smite, but of course with it's own flavor altogether.
6) i think monk should be able to viably function differently via varied ordering of ability scores, and should be able to choose class features without having to do an archetype swap.
how:
i am continuing to work on my monk house changes here
So maybe add in something like Rogue Talents or Rage powers to the Monk.
Maybe make Flurry Of Blows an additional Attack a try each BAB level and have it figure it as the Monks level as the BAB.
I still say the whole increasing the distance of their 5 foot step is a brilliant idea. Maybe make it to where their 5 foot step distance is half their Base Speed. So a Monk with a Base Speed of 40 can take a 20 foot 5-foot-step.
Ki I agree should be finite but I believe that adding abilities to provide limited enchantments and such would go a long way to boosting a Monk.
I still am not sure on the Stat X replaces Stat Y for Action Z.
Full BAB could be used but make it to where they still have the d8 HD. This could go along with my second statement.
I would give him the following two abilities:
Surprise Shift (Ex): The Monk can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.
Mystic strike (Su):As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your inner strength. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
That way, each turn the monk could decide between being more maneuverable or dealing more damage.
Both are abilities already in the game. the first comes from the skirmisher ranger, the second is da slightly changed arcane strike.
My take on it is that the fewest changes possible with the fewest ripples are likeliest to be implemented. Jason Buhlman has as much said this in the blog post that un-broke Flurry, gave the ki pool for overcoming DR, and reduced the price of AoMF.
Which is why my proposal had only three changes - though I'd support the "ki pool based somewhat on LoH" as a fourth change in my proposal.
For those who missed it earlier in the thread:
1) Halve the movement bonuses, make them untyped, so they stack with items and allow them to add to the 5' step distance for doing a full attack. This also increases the distance that a monk can go without triggering an AoO. Because this ability doesn't work in armor, it prevents dipping.
2) Replace the "Add +20' of movement" ki ability with "ki-pounce" - you spend 1 ki to make a Move action and still Flurry. You may not Charge and Flurry, so it's not quite as good as full Pounce.
3) At 6th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, Monks get a +1 to Hit that also improves their CMB/CMD and the save DC of their Stunning Fist ability (or the DC of any ability that replaces Stunning Fist). This bonus is capped at the lower value of their DEX or WIS modifier, and is cumulative with both the Guiding weapon property and the Weapon Finesse property.
4) Make Wholeness of Body cost 2 ki per use, and have it heal 1d6 per two Monk levels the character has. Allow it to be a Swift action if used on themselves, like Lay on Hands.
The problem with the monks multi-attribute dependency is really stemming from the stunning fist DC. There are a few ways to go about making it function more effectively, but static bonuses have a tendency to cause imbalance.
Wait, from reading this thread... did I miss some Errata/FAQ on the amulet of mighty fists or on flurry as two-weapon fighting?
The Eastern monk is definitely the more dangerous fighter compared to some of these other monks that sit around getting fat and lazy. Here is a monk with a 3 section staff which is a very dangerous weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1nYPy7T6M
The Eastern monk is definitely the more dangerous fighter compared to some of these other monks that sit around getting fat and lazy. Here is a monk with a 3 section staff which is a very dangerous weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1nYPy7T6M
I think that is a very narrow view of western monks. In certain eras most certainly they would be the more studious sort. However, in others, largely in the years following the crusades, they where often the ones who would train knights in how to fight. So, I would largely say it depends on the time frame discussed on how effective the western monks where at fighting.
I think that is a very narrow view of western monks. In certain eras most certainly they would be the more studious sort. However, in others, largely in the years following the crusades, they where often the ones who would train knights in how to fight. So, I would largely say it depends on the time frame discussed on how effective the western monks where at fighting.The Eastern monk is definitely the more dangerous fighter compared to some of these other monks that sit around getting fat and lazy. Here is a monk with a 3 section staff which is a very dangerous weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1nYPy7T6M
Did these monks also know how to utilize chi power? This is another advantage of Eastern monks, the power of Chi force which a way of achieving almost superhuman powers.
#1 And this is far from just being a monk issue - make combat maneuvers more viable at higher levels. The size and accompanying strength bonus of monsters just more or less stops these from being viable. Possible ways to improve - increase the bonus provided by maneuver-enhancement feats (like improved, greater trip etc) or offer more of them.
I for one am hoping the NPC Codex will help me a bit with this, since higher CR Humanoids are more combat-maneuver-vulnerable than most monsters, but I do not have the time and energy to come up with tons of humanoid NPCs from scratch.
Yeah, I too am opposed to giving the monk full BAB and even providing more synergy between flurry and and the mobility thing. The reason is this: What's fun about the monk class to me is the trade-offs. It's a strategic class - there should IMO be trade-offs between flurrying or moving about to achieve a more advantageous position.
I like that monks now have easier ways to penetrate DR/silver or cold iron, but would prefer there to have been more of a price for it. Maintaining 1 ki point just makes it too easy IMO - it's effectively an always-on ability. Would have preferred if it were something as simple as having to spend a ki point or standard action to activate for like a minute (significantly more than just a round).
Major changes I'd like to see:
#1 And this is far from just being a monk issue - make combat maneuvers more viable at higher levels. The size and accompanying strength bonus of monsters just more or less stops these from being viable. Possible ways to improve - increase the bonus provided by maneuver-enhancement feats (like improved, greater trip etc) or offer more of them.#2 Either let Align Weapon apply to unarmed strikes or provide some alternate method of giving unarmed strikes Good/Evil alignment descriptors before the char can afford a +5 AoMighty Fists.
Oh damn, I never noticed that line on Align Weapon before.. that sucks.
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I also don't have a specific suggestion for this, but I would like to see monks less gear reliant. If you are supposed to be able to play an ascetic warrior with them, then that needs to be truly possible and it's really not, especially at higher levels. But then, I think that's also more a problem with the game itself relying on a huge level of gear reliance, and thus not something I'd expect to see fixed in this version of Pathfinder.
Being less gear reliant will not make them use less gear, they will still use the same quantity of gear and probably the same gear too (unless the new abilities did overlap the gear abilities), getting them more powerful and as gear dependant as before.
Weapon training has made fighters less dependant from the weapon in which they are specialized. They use that weapon less than in 3.x? No, they use it the same or more and get more bonuses.
I doubt that it will be different for monks.
Why is there a new thread for this? There's at least 3 other threads taht answer these questions...
Avidity.
And too many martial arts films.
Would be nice at some point if Unarmed Strikes gained a 19-20 threat range.
Facking Barbarians.
Magic pixie fairy dust. Anyone can learn similar, nothing mystical about it at all.Did these monks also know how to utilize chi power? This is another advantage of Eastern monks, the power of Chi force which a way of achieving almost superhuman powers.I think that is a very narrow view of western monks. In certain eras most certainly they would be the more studious sort. However, in others, largely in the years following the crusades, they where often the ones who would train knights in how to fight. So, I would largely say it depends on the time frame discussed on how effective the western monks where at fighting.The Eastern monk is definitely the more dangerous fighter compared to some of these other monks that sit around getting fat and lazy. Here is a monk with a 3 section staff which is a very dangerous weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj1nYPy7T6M
Excuse me what? If you don't believe me watch master Bruce Lee display chi power at this martial arts demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeg_5bba6-M
Midline Vital ouch...
Excuse me what? If you don't believe me watch master Bruce Lee display chi power at this martial arts demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeg_5bba6-M
You're not really advocating for the existence of magical chi powers in the real world, are you? Seriously?
And if you are, why do you think magical chi powers are real, but that Catholic monks couldn't have real magic powers from God?
This is a bizarre twist in the conversation...