Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm. Well then you have a fair point, Corwynn, and it then comes down to the individual as to whether or not they're willing to pay the subscription.
On a personal level, I am stoked for this game in a way that I haven't been for a long time and MMOs are my main theatre of gaming. The opportunity to help mould an MMO that I intend to play for years to come is something that I value highly.
And I am also optimistic. Mainly because of three things:
1) I enjoy the Pathfinder world of Golarion.
2) Sandboxes are a rarer type of MMO I think we need to see more of.
3) What I have seen thus far in terms of concepts makes me think that the game may bring some unique features to the genre.
However, that does not mean that I think asking players to pay for the chance to play a buggy game is a wise move. *shrug*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a fan of paying for beta access. Not funding the project and getting into it, that's not what I'm talking about (trying not to touch the second Kickstarter thing at all, actually), I'm talking about just the fee involved in playing the beta.
Appropriate testing and even the world building aspect of the crowdforging is vital to producing a good game - many a game have only barely seen the light of day before they were shut down because of inadequate testing. Though it is not quite to the point of the actual developers, testers help make the game what it is and should be. Most people are glad to do it because they get to play the game early, and this has always been the expectation.
I'm okay with standards being broken if the situation calls for it, but does this one really? I'm not so sure. Two Kickstarters, the funding from unnamed investor(s) as of a result of the first one, -and- paying for the beta? If the money is needed, well, that's rough, but I understand. But then there should be some return for those who paid.
How about a point system? Maybe for every time period you buy in the beta is worth so many points, and these can be redeemed for stuff. Maybe game time once release hits, maybe a vanity pet, maybe some awesome looking gear without stats.
If the money is not needed, then I don't think the trade is worth it. You might find the amount of people you need to test it willing to pay to do it, but you might drive away more people who dislike the practice.
I don't know. I am trying not to act on instinct here, because I really like the idea of a Pathfinder MMO, but there's just too much here that I can't find the rational for. That being said, I'd rather help it work than just brush it aside.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DFTT!
You know what? I left your BS remark about not knowing what you'd said alone. But you're just being a jerk now, and there's no way you don't know that.
I am DEEPLY sorry that your rose colored fanboy glasses are showing you nothing but glorious visions for the future of PFO.
But the reality is that they have a very long way to go in a market that is absolutely one of the single most difficult to crack in gaming. I'm positive that I've got more experience as a professional and a gamer in the MMO space than you do, and the fact that you want to try and dismiss me as a troll is simply a) ridiculous, b) one of the worst tactics I've ever seen that seems to be repeatedly employed by people with a pathetic grasp of the factors weighing on any given issue.
My suggestion? Pick someone less intelligent and experienced if you want to score fanboy points. I'm not an easy mark.
I have to admit I'm a bit concerned with what I'm seeing, but as of now I'm in for my $100.
My hope is that this is more a terminology issue than anything else, and that there will be pre-alpha (game is playable and broken, testers at this level are fixing critical bugs, wipes and restarts rampant), alpha with enough users to really knock out the major bugs and issues, then a short pre-beta (what would normally be a closed beta) that makes sure everything is working, then finally the early enrollment 'beta' which isn't a beta at all.
If it appears that the game is going to be in an early beta state upon release to the Early Enrollers, then that's bad.
I've also got some concerns at the amount of money needed for a successful kickstarter... if everyone in the tech demo KS pledges $100, it's not even halfway there. That said, I skipped the tech demo KS and am in for the 'real' KS, so hopefully I'm more the norm and we'll see the 20,000 or so people they're planning on and come in over $2M so we start seeing some awesome stretch goals.
I hope to see more in regular KS updates to address these and other concerns. I have to say right now there's a fair chance I back out of my pledge and just wait for a retail release, because the idea of paying $100 to get to Beta test for an unknown MMO publisher just sits wrong for me.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm pleased to have the opportunity to shorten the development cycle, reduce the risk of outside factors prevent the development from finishing, and secure the privilege to be heavily involved in the final stages of development.
The current state already has a release date and feature set; this is funding IN ADDITION to the multimillion investor backing. That's why I feel comfortable buying in for in-game rewards and not for a fraction of a percentage of the net.
If you don't like the system, you can preorder for less than the retail cost; depending on how much you discount future savings, that may or may not make economic sense for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a fan of paying for beta access. Not funding the project and getting into it, that's not what I'm talking about (trying not to touch the second Kickstarter thing at all, actually), I'm talking about just the fee involved in playing the beta.
Which is where I would like to leave it as well. I made reference to the first Kickstarter because it was supposed to fund the game. The second is fine as a way to add to that by essentially doing "pre-sales" well in advance.
Appropriate testing and even the world building aspect of the crowdforging is vital to producing a good game - many a game have only barely seen the light of day before they were shut down because of inadequate testing. Though it is not quite to the point of the actual developers, testers help make the game what it is and should be. Most people are glad to do it because they get to play the game early, and this has always been the expectation.
It has been for all the years since I started playing and testing MMOs at least. The closed betas have always been about testing, sharing ideas, and improving the game. Fancy "crowdforging" buzzword aside, I have been in a lot of closed tests in which features were hammered out between the devs and players. I have been on BOTH SIDES of those tests. Let me assure you that the dev team is deeply indebted to those smaller, more limited groups who help test and develop.
I'm okay with standards being broken if the situation calls for it, but does this one really? I'm not so sure. Two Kickstarters, the funding from unnamed investor(s) as of a result of the first one, -and- paying for the beta? If the money is needed, well, that's rough, but I understand. But then there should be some return for those who paid.
Agreed. Goblinworks gets to turn a profit. The investors get their cut. What do the players who are hepling build the world (and again, they are invaluable) get outside of the chance to pay hundreds of dollars before the game even releases in a "bug-light" and "feature-sorta-complete" state.
How about a point system? Maybe for every time period you buy in the beta is worth so many points, and these can be redeemed for stuff. Maybe game time once release hits, maybe a vanity pet, maybe some awesome looking gear without stats.
I have no idea what will be worth hundreds of dollars for those in the beta from day one. You can say "oh yeah but you get a big head start" but if the game is going to be any kind of success that shouldn't be insurmountable anyway. (EVE pilots can become useful in days of training. That's part of why it's a huge success.)
If the money is not needed, then I don't think the trade is worth it. You might find the amount of people you need to test it willing to pay to do it, but you might drive away more people who dislike the practice.
I can hardly think, knowing as many MMO players as I do, that we are alone in our concerns about paying for beta. :)
I don't know. I am trying not to act on instinct here, because I really like the idea of a Pathfinder MMO, but there's just too much here that I can't find the rational for. That being said, I'd rather help it work than just brush it aside.
If I weren't interested in making the game a success I would have just not pledged and not posted. The fact that I am engaging on this aspect (instead of, you know, working . . . which I really should be LOL) should be taken as a testament to my desire to see the game succeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to admit I'm a bit concerned with what I'm seeing, but as of now I'm in for my $100.
That's how I feel about my pledge. I have some concerns, but my wife and I are in for $175 for the moment. Depending on how things develop I may have to pull that, or perhaps drop it to $70 or $35.
My hope is that this is more a terminology issue than anything else, and that there will be pre-alpha (game is playable and broken, testers at this level are fixing critical bugs, wipes and restarts rampant), alpha with enough users to really knock out the major bugs and issues, then a short pre-beta (what would normally be a closed beta) that makes sure everything is working, then finally the early enrollment 'beta' which isn't a beta at all.
If it appears that the game is going to be in an early beta state upon release to the Early Enrollers, then that's bad.
The problem here is that supposedly there will be "crowdforging" done during early release. Which means by default some of the stuff that is to be part of the game (as in, making it worth the sub fee at "launch") will simply not be in the game as near as I can tell. Let alone that when it does go in, it will invariably be in alpha/beta state funtil it's tested and fixed.
I hope to see more in regular KS updates to address these and other concerns. I have to say right now there's a fair chance I back out of my pledge and just wait for a retail release, because the idea of paying $100 to get to Beta test for an unknown MMO publisher just sits wrong for me.
Exactly the reason I want to try and get at the thoughts behind the early release and subscription fees for "beta" . . . people should know what they are in for when they offer up a not insubstantial amount of money years in advance. Investors get a lot of info when they sign on. Do player-backers deserve less?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This second KS was exactly what I was looking for, Thanks GW. I am in for $175.
Sorry if I don't see where they say they are charging a sub for early enrollment. I only see that they are giving away 3 months free of sub. Which to me means, upon open enrollment, when subscriptions are required, you get the first 3 free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This second KS was exactly what I was looking for, Thanks GW. I am in for $175.
Sorry if I don't see where they say they are charging a sub for early enrollment. I only see that they are giving away 3 months free of sub. Which to me means, upon open enrollment, when subscriptions are required, you get the first 3 free.
Open up the comments page. You'll see the following:
We think of the Beta more like Gmail Beta than a Beta Test. The purpose of the Beta isn't to test, it's to start with a very small, very controlled environment and number of users, and allow the system to grow and change based on the needs of real people. Our "theory" of what needs to be developed can get us to the start of Beta, but after that, we know we need the input and participation of the community to make the game as good as we think it can be.
Being an Early Enrollee means you're not just a player - you're having a direct effect on prioritizing features and helping us determine how to implement features. The game will literally be built in part to your specifications.
We think that's an experience worth paying for, and it helps us make Pathfinder Online Bigger, Better and FASTER, and we think that's a fair trade.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We argued about the term "Beta" for six months. In the end, we came down on the side of simplicity rather than making up a term nobody had ever heard of then trying to explain what that means.
Our game will have a testing cycle with server wipes and lots of bughunters and all sorts of crazy load-balancing experiments, etc. That will all happen prior to Beta.
When we open the Beta our belief is that the game will be in a stable condition with lots of interesting things for players to do and we'll be able to avoid a server wipe thereafter.
You can, if you wish, get hung up on the word "Beta" but we've decided it's less harmless to use that term than to call that part of the process the "@#)(*&P$()#*" and confuse the hell out of everyone.
Oh, and for the record, many games outside of North America launch with paid Beta. It's becoming a pretty normal part of the MMO business everywhere but the places where English is the primary language. And we think it's going to naturally occur in North America as well - for the same reason we're using the term; it's just better than making something else up from whole cloth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW has been completely upfront, transparent and informative. I imagine that will continue. I believe the very fact that we are in effect "investors" will apply more pressure on GW to produce quality. I think this is a healthy relationship we are developing.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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$60 for the game, and about $20 for a month's subscription gives a price point of ~$120 for the game and three months time included in the player pack. You can guess differently at what the industry-standard prices will be in 2014, or you can discount future money by more than 9.5%/year, but you can't share assumptions with me and claim that it isn't economically advantageous to pledge at $100 even without the early enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did the $100- pledge. I've backed 2 kickstarters in my life, both of the Pathfinder ones.
Generally, I consider kickstarters to be scams of one form or another. However Paizo has put out exemplary work over the life of the company and
has ushered in tremendous innovations in the PnP field. I feel that such work merits additional faith and funding and am happy to support them.
So I pledged $100-. What did I get for that $100-? Ignore the tchotchkes for a moment and concentrate on the big picture. I get a digital copy of the game and the first three months of "beta" pre-paid for. Lets say the game is successful and on the day its released I go to my nearest brick-and-mortar store and purchase the same. How much will THAT cost me?
Currently, a new game costs $59.99. I'll ignore tax and round up a penny. A month's subscription to a MMO is at least $15.00 and probably $20-. Lets say $15. 15*3=45+60= $105-. Huh. Look at that. I've already covered my initial investment.
But it's *beta* you might say. Only it isn't. Ryan has likened this beta to google mail beta, which was a mainstream email system for years before they removed the beta tag. For PFO, Alpha is the new beta. yeah, its a little counter-intuitive, but *shrug*.
So to sum up, getting my money back in the form of game + playing time, supporting an innovative and professional company and (fingers crossed) getting in on the first wave with 2000 of my closest friends because I was here on day 1.
To paraphrase WVU's victory slogan: "Its a GREAT day to be a Goblin Squad WHEREVER you are!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you for the lecture. I could say something unflattering here, but I suspect if you read what you wrote and think about it you can probably come up with an idea of why what you posted is pretty, uh, rude.
What he said was blunt but the aim didn't seem to be to offend. And that doesn't make what he said any less correct.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Corwynn, yep I found it.
Lets just not call it "Beta". Pretty sure Rift called early opening. It was a reward for preordering the game. They had several closed betas, an open beta, then a wipe and early opening for preorders with no wipe. Yes the game was polished, but we had no imput. At least with PFO while we are getting charged, we have input.
With Ryan's clarification, it cements my desire to go for the Crowdforger Alpha level, assuming my budget holds up. I want to be able to have a hand in developing the game but not from a selfish 'make it the way I want it' but rather to make it as good a game as I can for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do me a favor and list me some MMOs with paid betas?Paid beta is becoming the new norm for small studio games, or at least having the option to pre-purchase with guaranteed beta access while also having a random pool. Goblinworks has at least admitted their game will be in a beta stage when it is released.
I like paid beta, people are less inclined to 'try out' the game through a free beta period.
Darkfall
Mech Warrior OnlineStar Citizen
PS. If you don't think it is worth your money. Don't pay.
Also, on the NA paid beta front, purchasing the Alpha Squad for Planetside 2 bought you beta access. No, you didn't pay each month but I won't be surprised to see that happen in EQ Next.
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Goblin Squad Member
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$60 for the game, and about $20 for a month's subscription gives a price point of ~$120 for the game and three months time included in the player pack. You can guess differently at what the industry-standard prices will be in 2014, or you can discount future money by more than 9.5%/year, but you can't share assumptions with me and claim that it isn't economically advantageous to pledge at $100 even without the early enrollment.
If we assume $60 (maybe . . . most MMOs still lag behind other games in box price . . . for a reason, so that's still a maybe) and $20 we break even, and then we get some digital stuff that costs them next to nothing. Compare that to the $35 which we can assume IS a good price.
If I invest that money in short terms gains I'll have enough to buy a fourth and maybe fifth month of subscription and I can do without the digital stuff.
In addition, we're looking at something that very literally will not have the same value 9 months before release as it will at release. If it DOES then Goblinworks simply shouldn't develop games. Because 9 months of dev should make for a game with more features that is more stable. We can all agree on that point, I'm sure. :) The baseline should be release, after all, right?
So really it looks as if we're overpaying for sub, or subs are going to be ridiculously expensive, or that digital stuff costs us.
Whatever the case, it's not the right price point for what we actually get given how far in advance we're talking. Goblinworks and Ryan can tell us all day long that it will be worth it. History tells us that at least half the MMOs that launch aren't worth paying for POST beta.
My issue here may be with the semantics. But if so it's not as if someone who has won all sorts of marketing awards can be too shocked. After all, Ryan and I have worked the same part of dev in the past (community management is under marketing in most houses) and I'm finding it all too easy to point out that beta means you're asking people to help you test your project, and then charging them for it is uncouth.
Again, maybe I'm just too stuck in the mud. But I'd rather see new language (because English *is* constantly evolving) than apply old terms with specific connotations to a project.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DarkfallDo me a favor and list me some MMOs with paid betas?Paid beta is becoming the new norm for small studio games, or at least having the option to pre-purchase with guaranteed beta access while also having a random pool. Goblinworks has at least admitted their game will be in a beta stage when it is released.
I like paid beta, people are less inclined to 'try out' the game through a free beta period.
They had an inability to address server capacity, that was a released game that they put a chokehold on the storefront for.
But it's not an entirely unreasonable answer, so thank you.
EDIT: You added SC and MWO
All of the "new" games that have a "paid beta" kickstart option do not force a monthly sub on you. They offer, for a high price, the option to get in on beta and preview builds. They do not then milk you for that for months afterward.
THAT is the issue. Not that they have a $100 early access level. It's the fact that you then have to pay a sub fee on top of it.
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My crowdforging budget for this season went to Star Citizen but I'll gladly put in my Adventurer pledge after Christmas :)You know, you can pledge now and you won't have to actually pay anything until January 14th...
True statement is true. I think my delay is primarily about ensuring I can budget the pledge at that time as well, as it's not currently certain; I'm about 80% sure I can do it. Since the campaign is just a few hours old now and just about to hit $56k, I think it's safe to say it'll be funded by tomorrow anyways if not a few days from now. Way to go GW!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, on the NA paid beta front, purchasing the Alpha Squad for Planetside 2 bought you beta access. No, you didn't pay each month but I won't be surprised to see that happen in EQ Next.
Sneezing got you Beta in PS2. That was pure marketing gimmick. :) In addition, we're not talking about an up-front fee. (Compare $100 to $35 . . . is beta access ALONE worth $65?! Digital fluff is fluff and could just as well have been left out.) But we are instead talking about a recurring fee that you will have to pay if you want to keep testing. (And no matter what Ryan says, when they add features and you play them and provide feedback, it's called testing.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has been for all the years since I started playing and testing MMOs at least. The closed betas have always been about testing, sharing ideas, and improving the game. Fancy "crowdforging" buzzword aside, I have been in a lot of closed tests in which features were hammered out between the devs and players. I have been on BOTH SIDES of those tests. Let me assure you that the dev team is deeply indebted to those smaller, more limited groups who help test and develop.
Corwynn: You've identified yourself as having some compelling experience with mmo testing and seeing as you say you're currently in at what was it: $175 pledge level: let me say it'd be good to have you in early. Evidently you've identified a chance here!
Admittedly, I was surprised you have not expressed a fraction more tolerance in communicating your well-reasoned concerns above (there's bound to be miscommunication which can be clearly stated) but to reply to your question from my pov as good as I can: I think the pay-off of early access, if the stability of the game and playability are steady, is the chance to forge an exceptional mmorpg community via smaller numbers which can grow organically and further projecting be instrumental when the larger social organisation structures of the game are finally devilered. That would be v cool and v ambitious goal to be a part of. Additionally all that skill-training time passes "over".
Now, I admit I thought getting a goblin squad for the first ks for the demo would have been a 90% chance of "1st choice", but I realise mmorpgs are so risky and so few are clear-headed and well communicated design goals to the players/customers, that the not inconsiderable risk of backing early this ks, is a risk (& a hope) I can just about swallow. If I get stung the potential reward^ was worth the risk in my eyes and taking that risk might make all the difference one day. Edit: Obligatory: YMMV!
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Goblin Squad Member
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What he said was blunt but the aim didn't seem to be to offend. And that doesn't make what he said any less correct.
Thank you for the lecture. I could say something unflattering here, but I suspect if you read what you wrote and think about it you can probably come up with an idea of why what you posted is pretty, uh, rude.
I'll remember to make baseless assumptions about the mental capacity of the other posters.
I've been playing MMOs for a loooooong time now and nothing irks me more than people wanting alpha/beta access just to play the game rather than test it. Should I decide to drop this much cash on a project this early in development, it isn't going to be just to play it so you can rest assured that I'd be making suggestions that tie in with what the community as a whole seem to want, while operating within the confines of whatever NDA Goblinworks stipulate, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact is they are offering limited slots on release. The first month of play is what I have dubbed the "fanboy" release. If they can fill the slots while asking 5000$ to get in and 500$ a month afterward, then that is reasonable. This is for the games most dedicated backers not the general public. I guarantee you they will have no problems filling those slots. I am proud to do my part to keep PFO from having to sell out to investors who only care about profits.
I concur with Andius. With this Kickstarter and the way that Ryan has told us the 'beta' will run, we have an unprecedented level of access in helping define the way in which this game plays out and I'm sure that's something everyone can get behind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has been for all the years since I started playing and testing MMOs at least. The closed betas have always been about testing, sharing ideas, and improving the game. Fancy "crowdforging" buzzword aside, I have been in a lot of closed tests in which features were hammered out between the devs and players. I have been on BOTH SIDES of those tests. Let me assure you that the dev team is deeply indebted to those smaller, more limited groups who help test and develop.Corwynn: You've identified yourself as having some compelling experience with mmo testing and seeing as you say you're currently in at what was it: $175 pledge level: let me say it'd be good to have you in early. Evidently you've identified a chance here!
Assuming I'm not already busy whenever they decide they're doing early access. Which begs the question: "when does that 3 months start ticking" . . .
Smart response is "when you start it" but given that we're looking at what I consider the deeply misguided "beta early access pay us so you can test stuff" phase I wouldn't put it past Goblinworks to start the clock the day you get in a phase, so they can try to make more money later. :P
If I sound down on capitalism, I'm not. I'm a self-employed person who charges money for what I do/produce. But the wording that I am seeing as a veteran player and someone who did at least at one time work in industry (and has for many more years worked in gaming, and in software in general) does not inspire confidence.
This looks to me like an attempt to get money while still engaged in a stage of development that does not warrant that.
Now, I would be HAPPY to be proven wrong. Overjoyed, even. But at this point given the wording and "clarification" that means sinking $175 (or even $10 if it were just for me) in over a year in advance (and I'm a realist, I totally expect them to miss and hit 2015 even when they are funded) just hoping that Ryan and Goblinworks can do something that, well, nobody else seems to have ever done.
Admittedly, I was surprised you have not expressed a fraction more tolerance in communicating your well-reasoned concerns above (there's bound to be miscommunication which can be clearly stated) but to reply to your question from my pov as good as I can: I think the pay-off of early access, if the stability of the game and playability are steady, is the chance to forge an exceptional mmorpg community via smaller numbers which can grow organically and further projecting be instrumental when the larger social organisation structures of the game are finally devilered. That would be v cool and v ambitious goal to be a part of. Additionally all that skill-training time passes "over".
The only intolerance I have shown for my fellow backers/players was when I was branded a troll. I am I think justly sharp where it concerns the people at Goblinworks. They have an obligation to do their best to run a good campaign. Part of that is being clear and not confuse people with terms. Ryan says they've tried. I'm simply pointing out that they've failed, at least to some extent.
There are many released games with tight dev interaction and smaller populations. I am not sold on the concept that such communication is worth paying for. As a community manager I was engaged with players (all of them, not just ones that paid us) discussing the game, possible features, and the latest developments we had to share. I see polls and the like for what race to add, but that's not really any different from other games where I have seen devs ask in threads "we were considering thew options for a feature, which do you like" and then weighing the responses. Again, not paid to do so, just part of the package.
Now, I admit I thought getting a goblin squad for the first ks for the demo would have been a 90% chance of "1st choice", but I realise mmorpgs are so risky and so few are clear-headed and well communicated design goals to the players/customers, that the not inconsiderable risk of backing early this ks, is a risk (& a hope) I can just about swallow. If I get stung the potential reward^ was worth the risk in my eyes and taking that risk might make all the difference one day. Edit: Obligatory: YMMV!
I backed the first KS to help them get funded. I would solidly commit to my current pledge of $175 in a heartbeat if I felt that I wasn't then going to be milked for money during the test phase. My issue isn't with the game or the ideas or the company or Ryan (and believe me, some people do have issue with Ryan . . . pretty sure that's common knowledge, and in a way maybe a badge of honor for him in my eyes) . . . no, my issue is just with being told that while I am providing absolutely invaluable feedback to the company, I have to pay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll remember to make baseless assumptions about the mental capacity of the other posters.I donno, Corwynn, seems like you're looking for a fight if you were offended by what was said. You have to know this is how discussions happen. There was nothing personal in there.
On the other hand...
DFTT!...was fairly dismissive. But at that point tempers had flared, what was too be done?
Have I dismissed you? No.
The issue was simple: he saw something that did not fit with his rose-colored vision for PFO and he took a swing. I'm very sorry if you don;t consider what he said to be dismissive of me, but you're NOT me, so I guess that's just fine.
I am arguing a minority report on the most partisan forum I could choose. Given that, I think I'm doing just fine at only going after the one person who has actually jabbed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For everyone who is upset at this, I'd ask you to consider the value being offered in return for the pledge. I just pledged at the Crowdforger Buddy level ($175), but in exchange I'm getting two copies of the game, and two 3-month game subscriptions. At $40 per game copy, and $15 a month subscription (first month included), that's $140 I would have spent regardless. So I shelled out another $35 to help get the game built and get early access so I can help shape the game.
No-brainer.
For Ryan and Lisa et al., three of the important considerations in my pledge level were:
1) That you delivered on the tech demo.
2) The moves towards financial trabsparency in the Tech Demo update (disclosure matters a lot to me)
3) The chance to piggyback people into the game. My gf isn't pumped for this the way I am, but she will defintely want to play with me, so this is important. For any guilds that want in, having a chance to come in as a group is a big deal.
And of course let's not forget all of the other extras involved--the music, the books, the in-game items... that easily makes up for that extra $35.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact is they are offering limited slots on release. The first month of play is what I have dubbed the "fanboy" release. If they can fill the slots while asking 5000$ to get in and 500$ a month afterward, then that is reasonable. This is for the games most dedicated backers not the general public. I guarantee you they will have no problems filling those slots. I am proud to do my part to keep PFO from having to sell out to investors who only care about profits.
The first month of early release certainly isn't just for the "fanboys" . . . after all, I'm pledged, and you can mark me down firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it, and if you disappoint I won't be shy about saying so."
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Goblin Squad Member
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And of course let's not forget all of the other extras involved--the music, the books, the in-game items... that easily makes up for that extra $35.
We have no idea what those digital extras will be worth though. 95% of MMOs I have played have had in-game digital items that were fluff, or so limited in use that they were negligible.
Again, nice, lovely, but WAY too early to tell what they're worth. All of that is just spice to get us to bite. It's not something that costs, and, if you think about it, every single person who gets those items will be in at the same time, so you're not even gaining any "advantage" or "uniqueness" over the other thousands of players in the early release beta period.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And of course let's not forget all of the other extras involved--the music, the books, the in-game items... that easily makes up for that extra $35.We have no idea what those digital extras will be worth though. 95% of MMOs I have played have had in-game digital items that were fluff, or so limited in use that they were negligible.
Again, nice, lovely, but WAY too early to tell what they're worth. All of that is just spice to get us to bite. It's not something that costs, and, if you think about it, every single person who gets those items will be in at the same time, so you're not even gaining any "advantage" or "uniqueness" over the other thousands of players in the early release beta period.
Something doesn't have to be unique or have an advantage to be worthwhile--it simply has to be desired and or useful and given my satisfaction with everything I've dealt with that holds the Pathfinder label, I'm quite sure that I'm going to be satisfied.
If you are not, if you do not think you will be, then don't risk your money--it is as simple as that.
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I think it's worth stating out loud, as if it isn't obvious on its face, having a fee at the door for early players is primarily a self selecting filter. Why does your local country club and golf course cost $50,000 a year to be a member? Keeps the riff-raff out.
Pre-paying for 3-months of the game, a fully functioning yet immature game, a year before release, which actually may not happen as planned, lets Goblinworks know, "Now there's an SOB who cares about this game! Let's hear what he has to say about it."
Versus the mindless chatter of any number of a billion MMORPG forum sites.
May not be the end all be all, but it's a big part of the equation, in my humble opinion.
And I am not adverse to this way of doing things at all.
HOWEVER that does not mean that you also have to start charging people when they start testing for you. (Or maybe just to be fair, 3 months after they start testing for you.)
It's sufficient to say "pony up" and "first pledged, first testing" . . .
Please note that NOWHERE is it EXPLICIT that that first period will have a sub fee attached to it. This is a problem! We only know this t be true because we have asked directly for clarification. People are being asked to drop $100+ for "beta" access without a clear, honest, COMPLETE explanation of WHAT that means and (and this is very, very important) that they WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
I'm not trying to be a jerk at all. I am trying to make this a success. But the way to do that is to be really quite abundantly super terribly absolutely clear.
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There are many released games with tight dev interaction and smaller populations. I am not sold on the concept that such communication is worth paying for. As a community manager I was engaged with players (all of them, not just ones that paid us) discussing the game, possible features, and the latest developments we had to share. I see polls and the like for what race to add, but that's not really any different from other games where I have seen devs ask in threads "we were considering thew options for a feature, which do you like" and then weighing the responses. Again, not paid to do so, just part of the package.
That is a good point, the perk of kickstarting leading to being more involved: HOW that will materialise in a substantial way. Perhaps that's something the devs can expound on. Definitely would like to know more on that.
I've seen (some of) the horrors of mmorpgs that don't make it through development and then the horrors of mmorpgs that are released! So skepticism is so well founded, especially the delays. I think that's one of the biggest problems with this genre, the length of time for these games to come out raises the risks and expectations all round. And I mentioned it in one of my earlier posts: Cynical perspective is that the beta is a paid one. But I hope it's the minecraft alpha of mmorpg betas, despite those alarm bells going off in the back of my head.
In terms of forums/public roles (high tolerance required): I think you just mistook Nihimon's style of oblique responses: 9/10 easy-going and 10/10 resourceful! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The great think about this sort of crowdsourced funding is that the market will give GW a definitive answer. No matter what anyone here says,
that Kickstarter counter will tell the real story.
1st day, 577 backers and $63k. If that's the ceiling, well then this wasn't a feasible plan, and we'll get our money back and have to wait YEARS. And if not, well then I guess GW had a pretty good sense of the market.
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@ Corwynn
I think, really, in the end, we're either going to be satisfied or unsatisfied when we log in during the CrowdForging phase and discover just how much work has already been done and how much there is to do. And, of course, we can't know that right now.
I think it would be nice to have someone from Goblinworks come out and say, "On August 15th, 2014 we will have such and such done and ready to go. If you are OK with that then pony up a Benjamin and let's get rolling." But that would be irresponsible as well.
I do see your point, I believe. However, I don't know that what you may be looking for can be delivered right now. (I know that I've simplified your POV here.) I think you're right, in a way, we have to take it on faith or confidence if they can pull it off. Granted. I personally feel they've done enough for my hundo too see what they can do. The potential pay off is worth it.
I think there's far too much skating over the fact that you're expected to pay during "beta" and they're re-using the term (which isn't THAT odd when you're talking economies of scale, but not when you're switching to paying) . . .
The WHOLE THING is weird. As such it deserves explicit explanation. That's simply not present. There's a single throwaway line which mentions payment. ONE. Out of hundreds of sentences in the pitch.
Their way of doing things is so foreign to normal, yet there's no actual acknowledgement of that fact in enough detail to draw the eye.
What I'd like to see is FIRST (because I think that it is VITAL to be as clear as possible with your customers in all business ventures) is an extremely clear breakdown of how their definition of beta is not like normal. How people are signing up to be obligated to pay them if they wish to continue in the "beta" period.
So no, I disagree with you. I don't think that what I am asking for is AT ALL difficult in at least part.
Now, moving on there's the issue of possibly using stretch goals to absorb the "income" they apparently "need" from their "testers" . . .
And of course the semantics of the word beta needing to really be evaluated. Whoever was debating the "it's not beta" inside the GW team: kudos. I'll buy you a beer when I move back to Seattle. PM me for my cell number. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Corwynn, I apologize for the "DFTT!" post. I hit Submit right before I left work, and by the time I'd gotten home I'd thought better of it and was glad I could still Delete it. It's a shame it had already made its impact.
It was immediately clear to me, when I signed up at the $175 level, that being a "customer" during Early Enrollment meant I would be paying my subscription at that time. You'll note that they never explicitly state that you'll have to start paying for the game during Open Enrollment, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The great think about this sort of crowdsourced funding is that the market will give GW a definitive answer. No matter what anyone here says,
that Kickstarter counter will tell the real story.1st day, 577 backers and $63k. If that's the ceiling, well then this wasn't a feasible plan, and we'll get our money back and have to wait YEARS. And if not, well then I guess GW had a pretty good sense of the market.
Well, there's no end to an MMO's story, and unfortunately the success of that beta/early release/pay us to test period will have a pretty sizable impact. Particularly if they're trying to count on money supposedly expected to roll in when people start to pay, and the impact of the loss of "think tank" capital when people choose to drop out of the process because they're being asked to pay to test.
It will happen. How much it happens is a story we won't know the ending to until 2014 or later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Corwynn, I apologize for the "DFTT!" post. I hit Submit right before I left work, and by the time I'd gotten home I'd thought better of it and was glad I could still Delete it. It's a shame it had already made it's impact.
It was immediately clear to me, when I signed up at the $175 level, that being a "customer" during Early Enrollment meant I would be paying my subscription at that time. You'll note that they never explicitly state that you'll have to start paying for the game during Open Enrollment, either.
I accept the apology.
Since it has been "clear" to others that it was a beta and they'd start paying after release (meaning, when the gates were opened) I'd say it's pretty not clear, and what I am aiming at here is trying to get that clarity (day one, we can have issues, it's ok) put into the project moving forward.
So, not trolling, just seeking success in a way which not everyone will have seen as being an issue.
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I really hope GW clears up some of the terminology and misunderstandings as it seems to be creating a fair amount of bad blood and irritation. Preferably in one of the paizo blogs or a FAQ so it is easy to find and to put everyone on the same page. I really do want to see them do well but a million is a lot of money...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valkenr pointed this out in another thread, but it's probably worth repeating here:
Making Pathfinder Online will require a three-step process. First we will develop the basic game systems needed to get the game into a playable state. Second, we will open the game to our first paying customers during Beta – a stage of development akin to Gmail’s initial launch; all the features in the game will work but many aspects of the complete specification will still be in development. Third we will complete the Beta phase and Release the game. On Release, all of the basic game systems will have been implemented and polished and we will be focused on adding content and expanding options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Initially I was of two minds about this second kickstarter, initially I wasn’t pleased at the thought at the thought of shelling out even more money for the game. Then reality hit me and I did a few calculation for what I paid to play SWTOR, and what I’m currently continuing to pay. Suddenly I realised that the $100 Us dollar pledge isn’t such a bad deal. A digital copy of the game, plus a three month subscription, plus early entry, plus some extra goodies! I’ve already spent far in excess of that on a game that I find less than thrilling. So I very quickly pledged the $100 and now I’m feeling rather pleased with myself.