@Bruunwald: No ten foot pole? What D&D plan can possibly hope to succeed without a ten foot pole? ;)
I agree!
Obviously, they have a ghost touch 10ft. pole to herd the Wraith into Mr. T's general direction.
You know. Just to be sure.
Ghost touch 10ft pole?
Okay, that's going on the 'must have' equipment list... :)
Yeah I am going to add it to mine too...
Waiting for Ghost Touch iron spikes and Ghost Touch spider silk ropes now too :)
Waiting for Ghost Touch iron spikes and Ghost Touch spider silk ropes now too :)
:D
May I point out that the tarrasque must sleep and can get tired of runnning, whereas the wraith is undead and is immune to anything requiring a constitution check or dealing nonlethal damage (aka. Forced March).
It's outrun it far before that. Note that in discussions like this, RAW is the rule, rather than what's sensible. And there's no penalty for not sleeping by RAW. It's been hinted to by devs to inflict fatigue, but there's nowhere in the rules. Not that it matters in this case as it doesn't go nearly that far.
Forced March doesn't come into it.
If we keep to combat scale the tarrasque outruns the wraith.
If we move from combat scale to local scale, the tarrasque can run for 34 rounds, while a wraith cannot run on a local scale (it has no constitution score, and "A character can run for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score on the local scale without needing to rest."
We never go into the overland scale because the wraith can't find the tarrasque after the local scale is "finished". Note the rules on perception - the penalty is -1 for each 10 ft. That means after the first run action by the tarrasque, where it moves 750 ft, the DC to see it assuming it's dark (which it has to be or the wraith is powerless) is:
Notice a visible creature 0
Distance +75
Unfavorable conditions +2
Tarrasque's size -16 =
DC 61 perception check
(Note that applying size penalties to the "notice a visible creature" is a vague area in the rules, and if you think it's too vague we can ignore it - not that it makes it easier for the wraith)
Sorry, the wraith can't see the tarrasque AT ALL after that. Then it's down to tracking, and the wraith does this while moving at half normal speed - that is, 30 ft per round while the tarrasque moves at 80ft per round just through double moving (no running). The DC is low though, assuming outdoors during the night it's 15+3-8=10, so the wraith can take 10 at this low speed. Not at higher speeds though, and it maxes out at 120 ft which is still lower than a running tarrasque.
EDIT: Actually, when I reread it, I can see nothing about undead being immune to anything that requires a constitution check. At least not in the ability score or creature type chapters:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html
Rather, I see it explicitly stated that having no constitution score means a +0 modifier (general rule) and that undead use their charisma instead (specific rule). As such, a wraith can't run without making DC10 charisma checks and if it fails it has to stop.
"Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC)."
Note that running isn't a special ability, so it can't run for Cha rounds before checking either.
Unless there's some rules I've missed that aren't in Ability Scores, Creature Types, or Combat, undead seem reeeaaally bad at running. A wraith has 75% chance to run for one round, 52.5% chance to run for two rounds, and 31.5% chance to be able to run for three rounds.
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Why would the Tarrasque run away? Its Ecology states:
Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery.
If the wraith threatens it, wouldn't it try its best to fight the wraith? And is Int 3 enough for it to realize that it can't actually hurt the wraith? Shouldn't it at least have to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to figure out the properties of incorporeal undead?
Why would the Tarrasque run away? Its Ecology states:
Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery.If the wraith threatens it, wouldn't it try its best to fight the wraith? And is Int 3 enough for it to realize that it can't actually hurt the wraith? Shouldn't it at least have to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to figure out the properties of incorporeal undead?
If a rock falls on the head of the tarrasque, will it start chewing the rock in hopes that it will die?
If you look among mammals, of which the smartest non-human ones have intelligence 2, they generally run away if they, say, get stung by a wasp (unless they're cats, then they eat them. Damn my cat eats wasps for breakfast, lunch and dinner). That's the general response for int 1-2 beings when being attacked by something they can't fight, even if it isn't truly a threat to their survival.
And is there any special reason to bring up that the tarrasque would need a knowledge check to know the properties of a wraith when no-one requires that of the PC?
It's not a stretch to assume a creature that has lived for thousands of years at least knows those foggy ghosts can't really be hurt.
Remember that the Tarrasque is still smarter than the world's smartest non-human apes.
Why would the Tarrasque run away? Its Ecology states:
Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery.If the wraith threatens it, wouldn't it try its best to fight the wraith? And is Int 3 enough for it to realize that it can't actually hurt the wraith? Shouldn't it at least have to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to figure out the properties of incorporeal undead?
the terrasque is a chaotic hungry engine of destruction. i would personally say, that due to it's specific purpose and design, that it would try to eat the wraith and eventually fail. since it sees itself as invincible, it would never have learned the skill to run away. and considering it's main lifestyle choices, i doubt it would suddenly change it's pattern to accomodate wraiths.
this isn't a matter of intellect, as much as it's a matter of a dumb brute whom has lived an easy life of constantly eating everything it wanted, running into the one thing it cannot eat, and not knowing how to run away because it never needed to.
while it isn't quite too dumb for tactical decisions, (creatures with 1 int are capable of that too). it is barely sentient, and so ingrained in it's current pattern, a pattern it was created to accomplish, and such a drastic deviation from it's long running pattern would seem out of character for such an easily recognizable iconic creature defined by it's pattern. the terrasque is one of the most iconic super monsters out there. just like pit fiends, balors, and solars.
since it sees itself as invincible, it would never have learned the skill to run away.
Does it? If it saw itself as invincible why would it focus on targets that threaten it?
There are LOADS of things that can damage the tarrasque but that the tarrasque can't damage. Like, most half-dangerous flying which can gain full concealment from it. Like many dragons, a lot of fey, a lot of angels etc (the issue is damaging it fast enough for it to go down more than it regains)
You think it hasn't encountered something it can't eat before?
constantly eating everything it wanted, running into the one thing it cannot eat, and not knowing how to run away because it never needed to.
I don't see it stating that it's that interested in eating. It's mainly interested in destruction, is what I read from it's description. Which is why it'd move towards the closest civilization anyway, rather than standing around trying to eat a creature it can't eat. Also note that it takes about 40 minutes or so of constant attacking by the wraith for it to die, on average.
it is barely sentient, and so ingrained in it's current pattern, a pattern it was created to accomplish,
Which is to destroy stuff and go on rampages, not trying to eat undead.
Yar.
Just a bit of info to consider:
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
It is reasonable to assume that creatures with epic DR (the tarrasque is one of those creatures) treat their natural attacks as "magical" (as in that quote, it is clarified that epic weapons are magical weapons of a certain value), and thus the tarrasque is perfectly capable of damaging incorporeal creatures... and would thus shred the wraith to little incorporeal bits.
Or you can say that because the rules don't specifically say "creatures with epic DR treat their natural attacks as both magical and epic", it doesn't work that way... even though the previous sentence clarifies that "epic" is "magic" of a certain value.
~P
Huh. Never noticed the magic part of that sentence. They would work as magic and epic then. It does say it rather specifically. However - it only works for overcoming DR, and incorporability is not damage reduction. So that part of the incorporeal creature still works.
What's needed is an incorporeal creature with ability drain and either very high speed, or some way to otherwise track the tarrasque as it moves.
since it sees itself as invincible, it would never have learned the skill to run away.Does it? If it saw itself as invincible why would it focus on targets that threaten it?
i thought it was chaotic hungry, like a T-rex
There are LOADS of things that can damage the tarrasque but that the tarrasque can't damage. Like, most half-dangerous flying which can gain full concealment from it. Like many dragons, a lot of fey, a lot of angels etc (the issue is damaging it fast enough for it to go down more than it regains)
You think it hasn't encountered something it can't eat before?
considering that it's busy eating everything it destroys and too focused on it's hunger, i doubt it noticed.
constantly eating everything it wanted, running into the one thing it cannot eat, and not knowing how to run away because it never needed to.I don't see it stating that it's that interested in eating. It's mainly interested in destruction, is what I read from it's description. Which is why it'd move towards the closest civilization anyway, rather than standing around trying to eat a creature it can't eat. Also note that it takes about 40 minutes or so of constant attacking by the wraith for it to die, on average.
you don't use just one wraith, you use the wraith and it's army of created spawn. created by sacrificing an entire orcish encampment. by controlling the lead wraith, you indirectly control it's spawn as well.
it is barely sentient, and so ingrained in it's current pattern, a pattern it was created to accomplish,Which is to destroy stuff and go on rampages, not trying to eat undead.
i tries to eat whatever is nearest. yes, it's purpose is destruction, but it's means of destruction are similar to that of a T-Rex. satisfying it's colossal hunger.
Epic DR means the monsters attacks are also epic for overcoming dr.. Which means a tarrasque natural attacks overcome any dr, including said undead that he would eat in 1 round..
Yes it overcomes DR but it does not overcome incorperal as far as I know.
Also
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html
Lists the Tarrasque as being immune to ability damage and ability drain.
Also
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html
Lists the Tarrasque as being immune to ability damage and ability drain.
nope, only energy drain.
Okay. Welp. I wrote up a huge theoretical thing with the witch, involving evil eyes, misfortunes, accursed hex, cackling, mind fog, then SoS spells. Then I realized that I totally wasn't taking the tarrasque's immunities and, even worse, spell resistance into account.
So... don't mind me.
7he: Allips can in theory damage it as they deal 1 wisdom drain (no save) on a critical hit - which occurs as often (actually slightly more often) as the wraith crits. I think it's intended that there is a will save on critical hits, but by RAW it's only a save on regular hits.
Still, it takes them like half an hour and their speed is so slow they won't keep up with T.
And the running away isn't nonsense. It's true that we must assume that big T is found in the beginning - that doesn't mean it can't use whatever means to get them to lose track of it. If the fight was against a dragon, would you prohibit the dragon from casting invisibility so it can't be seen because the fight "assumes that it could be found"?
Running away is a perfectly fine response. It doesn't even have to be in fear - it could just be that it doesn't see any use wailing about it's claws at a ghost when it could be trampling the nearest city.
Unless of course you find it at night in a city, but then, I would say taking 30-40 minutes to kill big T is pretty fail as by then the city is leveled to the ground (unless someone else stops it).
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Hey, if I can get the Tarrasque to beat feet just by hitting it when it can't hit back...I'd count that as a win.
Our level 4 sorcers just parks one of his wraith's spawn in every town in the kingdom. When the Tarrasque comes, the wraith just goes after it, and the Tarrasque runs away like a puppy from a water sprayer. It spends all its time running from wraiths, and no time actually eating towns. The days is saved.
Not what I'm saying at all. Sure, T can run, but then the assumption must be made that it is found again for any plan to work. It runs, you find it.
If that assumption is not made, than the assumption that it was found in the first place cannot be made...
Assuming that you can find big T once is one thing. A second time might even be okay. But when we're down to finding it over a twenty times, as is needed for the wraith (it has 4.75% chance of dealing 1d6 con drain) and big T can disappear after a single round (not to mention big T will notice the wraith far before it notices T, and after a few weeks it'll probably learn to just move on when that irritating bug comes along), and the duration of command undead, the Cha check required (and failing once means you have to find a new wraith), and the decent will save of the wraith... Well, let's just say you need more than one wizard at the rate they'll die of (if not of the constant search for new wraiths so of old age).
Hey, if I can get the Tarrasque to beat feet just by hitting it when it can't hit back...I'd count that as a win.
Our level 4 sorcers just parks one of his wraith's spawn in every town in the kingdom.
That still won't save the cities though. Note that wraith spawn deal even less constitution damage, so Big T probably has a few hours to level the city before the drain really takes to him.
Getting the wraith to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do (basically anything but lurk around in whatever tomb it usually spends it time in) requires a charisma save. No retries.
Gah, just realized something. Wraiths can't kill incapacitate the Tarrasque no matter how hard they try. The only penalty for having a constitution of 0 is death. Source
Tarrasque can't die. Source. As long as you have regeneration, you cannot die.
The only exceptions mentioned in the tarrasque's block are instakillers, which it regenerates from after 3 rounds.
So tarrasque is stuck at Con 0, it has 30 hit points, and is still awake and rampaging on. At this point, if we assume we can get it there, it might be possible to outdamage it's regeneration but it's not easy for a Sorcerer 4. And I still claim it practically impossible for the wraiths to get it there, but whatever.
Large forces of Archers & Longspear wielding warriors could potential finish it off if you reduce it to 30 HP. Then just drop it into a Volcano and prey nothing reawakens it.
Gah, just realized something. Wraiths can't kill incapacitate the Tarrasque no matter how hard they try. The only penalty for having a constitution of 0 is death. Source
Tarrasque can't die. Source. As long as you have regeneration, you cannot die.
The only exceptions mentioned in the tarrasque's block are instakillers, which it regenerates from after 3 rounds.
So tarrasque is stuck at Con 0, it has 30 hit points, and is still awake and rampaging on. At this point, if we assume we can get it there, it might be possible to outdamage it's regeneration but it's not easy for a Sorcerer 4. And I still claim it practically impossible for the wraiths to get it there, but whatever.
even if you have regeneration, Con 0 means you are dead. regeneration just means hit point damage cannot kill you unless you are finished off by something that bypasses it.
regeneration is stopped by constitution damage. and regeneration doesn't heal hit points lost to suffocation either. so you can suffocate it to death too.
even if you have regeneration, Con 0 means you are dead. regeneration just means hit point damage cannot kill you unless you are finished off by something that bypasses it.
No, that's 3.5 regeneration. Check pathfinder regeneration. It explicitly says: "Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)." (my bolding)
(link is broken, don't know why it doesn't work - google "prd universal monster rules" for source)
and regeneration doesn't heal hit points lost to suffocation either. so you can suffocate it to death too.
Right and wrong. Regeneration does not heal the damage, but neither does it allow it to die. Basically, if you tie up a troll and throw it in a lake, it will suffocate and be at -1 hit points, dying and unconscious. Whether it stabilizes or not doesn't really matter - it'll have hit points below consciousness. But regeneration still prevents it from dying, so if the lake dries out a century later, the troll will slowly, slowly heal the natural way and start living again.
The same is true for all other methods of constant damage on a regenerating creature unless it hits their weak spot (which also works a bit different from 3.5, I suggest checking it out).
Large forces of Archers & Longspear wielding warriors could potential finish it off if you reduce it to 30 HP. Then just drop it into a Volcano and prey nothing reawakens it.
potentially, if they bypass the DR. But then again, if we have an army fighting it, you need a bit more than a 3rd level wizard, right? ;D
I think it depends entirely on how you read the ruling, Ilja, especially the "order of operations", as it were.
Having CON 0 means that you're dead. Plus, so long as the regeneration functions the Tarrasque can't die. However, creatures must have a constitution score to have regeneration.
Obviously, the general rules would indicate that Big T can't die.
However... look at his regeneration ability again. It says "even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect" - the latter of which indicates it can be slain by a death effect. In this case, specific trumps general. For further evidence, "If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."
What this means is that it's effectively dead for three rounds. The part about "truly kill it" clearly refers to the fact that Big T's regeneration is still functioning and it will come back from the dead later.
But... if it's CON is drained to 0, that means it is dead. This is not an attack that "suppresses" regeneration (as is the case of fire damage and trolls), it's a state of being that the Tarrasque is in: it has changed from a living creature (one with a CON score higher than 0) to a dead one (one with a CON score of 0). This bypasses regeneration entirely, as it's not dealing with lost hit points or body parts.
Meanwhile the originally-fourth-level-wizard is now likely significantly higher (let's not-so-arbitrarily call it 20th level), having made a career out of hunting and driving off Big T with piddly wraiths (and also the fly spell and invisibility).
So, he finally drops Big T's CON score down to 0. Good for him!
... but it doesn't seem to be working! Oh no! What to do?!
Gate. No, I don't mean the cheezey-wish-gates, I just mean get yourself a chaotic neutral candle of invocation or five hundred (which can be accomplished by wishing cheese), boost all of their caster levels to 18, and open them all directly on top of Big T, while summoning these guys. Why? Because it's fun slowing down the Tarrasque. Shush. ()
After Big T is stuck with a WIS of 1 forever, and a speed of 10, use a charmed, dominated, or suggestioned this thing at it, to finish it off. It's touch AC is terrible, and even more so when its dexterity is reduced by four (touch AC 3). Once she touches him once and buggers out of there, he's defeated for good, as his wisdom isn't getting better.
We're almost there, I promise.
Then you hit it with death effects. Which ones? I'd recommend a nice low-level wand of phantasmal killer, as its will save sucks terribly, and it's got to roll a natural 1 sometime. If you want a more reliable method, however, and you're a high enough level, you can use finger of death. Just so long as you start shortly after sunset.
Once you're done, if you're twentieth caster level or more, turn it into your pet zombie. Sure, it's gross and technically evil, but Big T won't have regeneration any more, considering its shiney new complete lack of a constitution score. Also, Animate Dead isn't an attack. You win!
Now, that's all well and good, but that's a 20th level build - kind of cheating, right? Well... look, you took it down several notches when you were fourth level, at least! And you guys are the ones that refused the simple ruling!
EDIT: for tag-fixing and because of ninja'd. :)
Large forces of Archers & Longspear wielding warriors could potential finish it off if you reduce it to 30 HP. Then just drop it into a Volcano and prey nothing reawakens it.potentially, if they bypass the DR. But then again, if we have an army fighting it, you need a bit more than a 3rd level wizard, right? ;D
Depends on if he charmed them all or not! :)
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Depends on if he charmed them all or not! :)Large forces of Archers & Longspear wielding warriors could potential finish it off if you reduce it to 30 HP. Then just drop it into a Volcano and prey nothing reawakens it.potentially, if they bypass the DR. But then again, if we have an army fighting it, you need a bit more than a 3rd level wizard, right? ;D
I am thinking something like 1000+ of each using the Stat Blocks for the Foot Soldier from the GMG.
Modify them by swapping the DEX & STR and equip them with Longbows.
With enough you can take down anything...
& I will probably use this scenario when I get UCII(Ultimate Campaigns).
Having CON 0 means that you're dead. Plus, so long as the regeneration functions the Tarrasque can't die. However, creatures must have a constitution score to have regeneration.
Well, specific overrides general. The general rule is that at 0 con you're dead, the specific is that creatures with regeneration can't die (please tell me if you disagree with this, but I feel pretty confident in that specific abilities override general ability score rules). Having a 0 constitution is not the same as not having a constitution score; creatures with no constitution score have a "-" rather than a zero in their statblock.
However... look at his regeneration ability again. It says "even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect" - the latter of which indicates it can be slain by a death effect. In this case, specific trumps general. For further evidence, "If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."
What this means is that it's effectively dead for three rounds. The part about "truly kill it" clearly refers to the fact that Big T's regeneration is still functioning and it will come back from the dead later.
Yes, death effects is it's special weakness, though even that only allows it to die for three rounds. There's some debate over whether something like Animate Dead can overcome that by stripping it of it's abilities, but regardless, constitution drain isn't an instant kill effect.
But... if it's CON is drained to 0, that means it is dead. This is not an attack that "suppresses" regeneration (as is the case of fire damage and trolls), it's a state of being that the Tarrasque is in: it has changed from a living creature (one with a CON score higher than 0) to a dead one (one with a CON score of 0). This bypasses regeneration entirely, as it's not dealing with lost hit points or body parts.
But regeneration doesn't just stop creatures dying from lack of hit points or body parts. It's a specific ability that give blanket immunity to death except where otherwise noted on a specific creature (fire and acid for trolls, Big T's is disintegration and similar, though even that doesn't keep it gone for long).
Granted, it's pretty silly - but so are the methods for killing it. In discussions like this, RAW is more important than RAI.
I guess it could be argued that death and dying aren't connected, but if we go to THAT extreme I'll have to note that there's no penalty for being dead unless you have negative hit points ;D
Depends on if he charmed them all or not! :)
I was actually thinking of saying that, "hey, a 1st level wizard can do it, ze just has to cast Charm Person on Elminster until El fails his save".
I think it can be safely done at a far lower level than 20 though. I'd say by level 12 or so you can probably do it if you can find enough allips, and at level 15 at the latest you can begin to create that army yourself. Find someway to speed them up, and use Locate Creature (range of 1000 ft, more than Big T can cover). Assuming you have a fair number of allips (a level 15 necromancer can cover quite a lot with repeated Control Undead spells combined with the standard lame 19 hd from undead master/command undead feat), you may not need more than 3-4 rounds; chance to drain wisdom of 1 is 5% everytime they hit. You would need a few wands of lesser restoration to offset the wisdom damage you take from Madness though.
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But regeneration still prevents it from dying, so if the lake dries out a century later, the troll will slowly, slowly heal the natural way and start living again.
But I thought we were opening a bar and grill on our tarrasque's back? Besides massive risk of death and destruction on a wide scale if/when it somehow accidentally wakes back up... what's the harm? :P
Also, two random thoughts. Is there a relatively low level spell that could make an outsider obey you, and is spell resistance effective against supernatural abilities?
I see nothing about the tarrasque being immune to curses, and an Animate Dream has a pretty mean one... With a DC of 21, and the tarrasque having a +12 Will save, it's got a slightly better than half chance to avoid it(in which case, our incorporeal friend can just attack again). Otherwise though, it's getting 1d4 Wis Drain per day, and needs three consecutive saves to cure itself. As that Will save gets lower and lower from reduced Wis, that'll get pretty tough.
Smack it with that thing and after rampaging for awhile, it'll fall into a coma. Not the quickest win, but in a world of level 4 adventurers, there seem to be somewhat few options, huh?
As for the supernatural abilities question, I'm wondering if a witch's misfortune or evil eye hexes could help on A) subduing an Animate Dream or B) making sure the tarrasque gets cursed.
Darkwolf117, that's an excellent idea. It only requires a single hit and has a fair chance to actually put it in a coma. A planar binding could get it. Witch hexes might help, but have a fairly short range and are offensive actions - it'd be very dangerous for the witch to go so near.
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Agreed. When I was thinking upthread about witches I figured one would definitely need something to stay alive if they wanted to get close. Although, supernatural abilities do indeed bypass spell resistance, so if we really want 'em, might be worth getting some defenses to allow for it.
I think the bigger deal is actually getting an Animate Dream on our side though. Planar Ally was my first consideration, but looks much more costly for a low level character. Might do well though, since it basically makes it at least listen to the request, and this really shouldn't pose any threat to the Dream.
As for Planar Binding, it does sound pretty good, though the Dream's Will +12 might make grabbing it a little difficult. If we take 20 on drawing a magic circle though, that keeps its SR out of the question, so that's good on more time to wear it down. Haven't done any number crunching yet though, so not too sure what the odds look like on anything.
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Alright, it's getting late for me, so my brain might be turning off. However, here's what I've got for this.
I'll spoiler it, 'cuz I think it'll read better divided into lots of lines.
Go human for a +2 to Cha. Or Int. If there's something that boosts both, that could be cool too.
At first level, go with witch, pick up the Evil Eye hex, and take Extra Hex to also get Cackle. With your human bonus feat, take Extra Hex again and pick up Fortune or Misfortune.
At level 2, take another level of witch and pick up that other hex you didn't get at first level.
Level 3, take your first level of Sorcerer, and also pick up the Accursed Hex, tied to your Misfortune.
Honestly, I think this might be as far as you need to level.
Get a scroll of Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Planar Binding, all scribed by Sorcerers.
Put 'em all together, taking 20 on the Circle's Diagram to make sure it's perfect.
This gives us a DC 19 Planar Binding (10 + 6 from spell level + 3 Cha modifier needed to have scribed the thing in the first place). We've also got it anchored for the next 8 days, thanks to whoever scribed the Dimensional Anchor scroll.
If we're lucky with the Planar Binding, we've got us an Animate Dream trapped in a Magic Circle, and it can't do anything about it.
Evil Eye the poor thing while Cackling madly. Particularly, lower its ability checks and saving throws, just to tilt things a bit further in your favor. This makes it less likely to break free, or to resist your request.
Fortune yourself up, and Misfortune it down. It's not a high DC for Misfortune at 14, but the horse'll have a -2 on its save thanks to Evil Eye, leaving it with +10, and it'll have to roll twice thanks to Accursed Hex. If it hits, cool. If not, you've got another week's worth of chances.
Make a Charisma check against it, telling it to go pwn the Tarrasque. You can roll twice thanks to Fortune, taking the better, and if you got it with Misfortune, it'll have to roll twice and take the worse. If you fail though, wait a day and try again.
Additionally, if you hit it with Misfortune and don't want to let that wear off, just stay up all night laughing at the thing. It's not like sleep is needed for anything ;)
Provided you don't roll terribly for a week straight, eventually the Dream should agree to your request. Tell it to go and just keep attacking the tarrasque 'til the thing falls unconscious, and report back when done.
Sooner or later, Big T will collapse from Wisdom Drain, thanks to the Dream's awesome Nightmare Curse. Pet that abominable horse on the head, and sleep with one eye open since its CR is twice your level and it is likely going to haunt your dreams or kill you outright.
Retire the level 3 character who beat the campaign boss. A round of drinks might also be in order, possibly at the Bar you open on the Tarrasque's back because you're such a badass.
So. There we go. That's a possibility for how this might be accomplished. The witch hexes are really just to speed up the Binding, since you are on a bit of a time limit with the Dimensional Anchor, but I think they help a fair bit. Otherwise, this might be feasible with a maxed Cha sorc at level 1, with the same items.
Of course, if I missed something vital, let me know. Otherwise... I think that tarrasque just got pwned :P
Edit for a typo
The main issue I see is yeah, the tarrasque has no magical attacks, which seems quite the oversight, so it can't do anything to hurt incorporeal creatures. And its touch AC sucks.
But there's a LOT of ifs... if you succeed, if the animate dream successfully saves against the tarrasque's fear aura (possible, but not guaranteed), if the tarrasque fails its save vs nightmare curse, and most importantly, if the tarrasque just stands still and takes it. It has a high enough wisdom to just try and stay out of the thing's way once it realizes it can't hurt the creature in response. The nightmare curse could eventually drop him unconscious if he never made a save to recover from the curse, but as its frequency is 1/day it's got time to do that. And a lot of time to run.
If I were the animate dream, I'd in fact chase the tarrasque in a direction where the witch/sorcerer was located...
But it is possible. How likely, and how much damage the tarrasque would do before the animate dream was successful, is another matter.
DW, that's an awesome and well-thought out plan. I'll scrutinize it more heavily tonight. The one thing that stands out is that you'll have to succeed at a pretty high caster level check on the scrolls though.
But you'll want a way to locate big T that doesn't require too much time since the duration is limited and it relies on single-use items.
Some random thing I was thinking of... a tarrasque is a magical beast. Could a ranger convince a tarrasque to be friendly via wild empathy? -4 penalty but still...
The tricky part would be his surviving the minute it takes to get wild empathy going.
But there's a LOT of ifs... if you succeed, if the animate dream successfully saves against the tarrasque's fear aura (possible, but not guaranteed), if the tarrasque fails its save vs nightmare curse, and most importantly, if the tarrasque just stands still and takes it.
True enough, it's certainly not a surefire method. However, the tarrasque's fear aura shouldn't be too big a problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but Frightful Presence says the following.
An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failed save, the opponent is shaken, or panicked if 4 HD or fewer.
That seems to suggest that, at worst, the Dream is gonna get shaken, seeing as it is 12 HD. Unless it meant to imply 4 HD less than the DC or the creature with the aura, but it doesn't seem to read that way.
As for the tarrasque failing its save, that's close to a 50/50 chance per hit, and if we tell the Dream to hunt it down continually, it shouldn't be able to avoid it forever. A lot of it is probably in how you word the Binding Request, which I admit I left kind of vague specifically because of that.
It has a high enough wisdom to just try and stay out of the thing's way once it realizes it can't hurt the creature in response. The nightmare curse could eventually drop him unconscious if he never made a save to recover from the curse, but as its frequency is 1/day it's got time to do that. And a lot of time to run.
Assuming it stands still for at least a couple rounds when the Dream first starts its thing, it's not too unlikely for it to be cursed. I personally would think that by the time it realizes that curse is bringing it dangerously close to permanent unconsciousness, it'll have needed to take a pretty sizeable hit. Even more so to actively connect the curse to that horse that occasionally shows up and hits it once or twice. But... that's getting into specifics of how the DM runs monsters, so it's a bit hard to be certain.
If it does though, I'd think at that point it would have a pretty noticeable penalty on its Will save, at which point, 3 consecutive saves on DC 21 seems unlikely (though, of course, certainly possible). And if it isn't, the Dream keeps following it, reapplying the curse if it's not on.
If I were the animate dream, I'd in fact chase the tarrasque in a direction where the witch/sorcerer was located...
Haha, that could indeed be a bit of a problem, but hard to say without getting into too many specifics I think.
But it is possible. How likely, and how much damage the tarrasque would do before the animate dream was successful, is another matter.
If you can think of any suggestions to strengthen the possibility, please do :P And yeah, this isn't exactly easy on the collateral damage...
The one thing that stands out is that you'll have to succeed at a pretty high caster level check on the scrolls though.
Ooh... yeah, I was thinking it was a Spellcraft check on that, which could have been boosted to 9 or so. Caster level check is somewhat more difficult. Hmm...
Edit: Magical Knack Trait, tied to sorcerer, provides a +2 caster level, as long as it doesn't push you over your HD. I imagine this should apply to caster level checks as well. Highest check for casting should be the Planar Binding at DC 13, meaning success on 10 or higher. Not great, but it could be worse. The others are level 3 and 4, meaning 7 and 9 DC. Admittedly, it is three checks in a row, making it difficult, but relatively well within reach.
But you'll want a way to locate big T that doesn't require too much time since the duration is limited and it relies on single-use items.
I think once the Planar Binding is in place, there isn't actually a time limit for it. It has an instantaneous duration, and the only mention of time is if it is something that can't be accomplished by the creature in question.
On a random side note, I wish I had linked to all these things in that post. It would make looking back and cross referencing so much easier :/
Some random thing I was thinking of... a tarrasque is a magical beast. Could a ranger convince a tarrasque to be friendly via wild empathy? -4 penalty but still...
The tricky part would be his surviving the minute it takes to get wild empathy going.
Does it work if the magical beast also has 3 Int? As for surviving for a minute... yeah, that might be difficult too. Still, that could be good.
I think it can be safely done at a far lower level than 20 though.
Just to clarify, the level 20 was only because you can't animate dead with more than double your hit dice. Skeletons are out because you can't animate anything with more than 20 HD anyway. Zombies add +10 to the HD and Big T has 30. And you can't get away with create undead nonsense (actually turning into a CR 3 ghoul) because that takes an hour and quicken doesn't work. Thus the 20th level wizard. Because I'm trying to actually kill it!
On a random side note, I wish I had linked to all these things in that post. It would make looking back and cross referencing so much easier :/
First, to answer a question you had, outside of the drow noble, I can't really find anything that's not terribly monstrous that gives you a bonus to both intelligence and charisma (and none of the suggested player races have it, even the normal drow). I might recommend changeling, but that's just for flavor, and we'd have to be a higher level due to the feat requirements of your build, so perhaps not. Similarly, samsaran provides nice bonuses against negative energy (and thus would be helpful v. the animate dream), but... eh. Similarly, kitsune get bonuses with opposed charisma checks. Still, they'd all be five level builds instead of three.
Anyway!
For a 15 point buy, we'll dump Strength and Dex down to 7 and 9, respectively. Kick our Int and Cha up to 16. You could shoot for higher if you want, though. Truthfully, you could probably lower Str, Dex, Con, and Wis to 7. Int and Cha are the only ones relevant here.
Go human for a +2 to Cha. Or Int. If there's something that boosts both, that could be cool too.At first level, go with witch, pick up the Evil Eye hex, and take Extra Hex to also get Cackle. With your human bonus feat, take Extra Hex again and pick up Fortune or Misfortune.
At level 2, take another level of witch and pick up that other hex you didn't get at first level.
Level 3, take your first level of Sorcerer, and also pick up the Accursed Hex, tied to your Misfortune.
Honestly, I think this might be as far as you need to level.
Get a scroll of Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Planar Binding, all scribed by Sorcerers. Note, this actually goes over WBL by 50 gold. Then again, from the original assumption, we're a full level and 2950 gold under, so who's counting?
Put 'em all together, taking 20 on the Circle's Diagram to make sure it's perfect.
This gives us a DC 19 Planar Binding (10 + 6 from spell level + 3 Cha modifier needed to have scribed the thing in the first place). We've also got it anchored for the next 8 days, thanks to whoever scribed the Dimensional Anchor scroll.
If we're lucky with the Planar Binding, we've got us an Animate Dream trapped in a Magic Circle, and it can't do anything about it. Not entirely true actually, but it's options are quite limited.
Evil Eye the poor thing while Cackling madly. Particularly, lower its ability checks and saving throws, just to tilt things a bit further in your favor. This makes it less likely to break free, or to resist your request.
Fortune yourself up, and Misfortune it down. It's not a high DC for Misfortune at 14, but the horse'll have a -2 on its save thanks to Evil Eye, leaving it with +10, and it'll have to roll twice thanks to Accursed Hex. If it hits, cool. If not, you've got another week's worth of chances.
Make a Charisma check against it, telling it to go pwn the Tarrasque. You can roll twice thanks to Fortune, taking the better, and if you got it with Misfortune, it'll have to roll twice and take the worse. If you fail though, wait a day and try again.
Additionally, if you hit it with Misfortune and don't want to let that wear off, just stay up all night laughing at the thing. It's not like sleep is needed for anything ;)
Provided you don't roll terribly for a week straight, eventually the Dream should agree to your request. Tell it to go and just keep attacking the tarrasque 'til the thing falls unconscious, and report back when done.
Sooner or later, Big T will collapse from Wisdom Drain, thanks to the Dream's awesome Nightmare Curse. Pet that abominable horse on the head, and sleep with one eye open since its CR is twice your level and it is likely going to haunt your dreams or kill you outright.
Retire the level 3 character who beat the campaign boss. A round of drinks might also be in order, possibly at the Bar you open on the Tarrasque's back because you're such a badass.
So, does that work for you? :D
(Also, DQ, I think that your idea is really cool, but it specifies the INT must be 1 or 2.)
So, does that work for you? :D
Haha, sure does! Much obliged! :P
Also, for the races, I originally actually forgot about the human's extra feat, and was figuring it would be simple enough to stick to 3 without one of those hexes, probably Evil Eye. Once I remembered it though, that made human look a lot cooler.
Edit: Typo
Just to clarify, the level 20 was only because you can't animate dead with more than double your hit dice. Skeletons are out because you can't animate anything with more than 20 HD anyway. Zombies add +10 to the HD and Big T has 30. And you can't get away with create undead nonsense (actually turning into a CR 3 ghoul) because that takes an hour and quicken doesn't work. Thus the 20th level wizard. Because I'm trying to actually kill it!
By RAW, it's very ambiguous if the animate dead trick works (or rather, whether it doesn't work or is just unnecessary). It depends on how you see the regeneration.
"If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."
There are two possible interpretations of this.
The first is that three rounds after the tarrasque has temp-died, regeneration activates and it rises from death.
The second is that when the tarrasque fails it's save, regeneration activates and triggers a three-round countdown until it rises.
If it's 1, you can kill it by stripping it of it's regeneration ability within 3 rounds after it's death, by animating it. If it's 2, you can't because the ability has already activated - just like if a wizard cast summon monster and is killed, the effect does not end just because what triggered it is lost.
The thing is, if we use interpretation 1, we don't have to animate it - because when it dies, it becomes a corpse which has no con score (it isn't even a creature) and thus it loses regeneration and is permadead. Basically, with interpretation one, the ability will never trigger. Due to this, I find it reasonable to assume 2 - or if we assume 1, we don't need to animate it regardless so we don't need that CL 20 anyway ;D
(btw, you don't have to be 20th level to animate a 40 hd creature - you can skip four levels by the Undead Master feat and maybe a few more via feats and items. At 14th level it shouldn't be impossible, if you put your mind to it).