4th level beats Tarrasque!?!


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Over on this thread it's claimed that a 4th level character can beat the Tarrasque. So as not to derail that thread, I'd like to know just how this is possible.


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A spellbook filled with explosive runes. Set off one, they chain, and now you have the damage of a Tac-Nuke. 600d6 600 damage minimum. Getting it to stay dead is another story...

Webstore Gninja Minion

Moved thread.


Harark wrote:
A spellbook filled with explosive runes. Set off one, they chain, and now you have the damage of a Tac-Nuke. 600d6 600 damage minimum. Getting it to stay dead is another story...

As far as I know it's not even possible to gain 3rd level spells at 4th level.

Do Wizards get them that early?


here is what you need

a 3rd level wizard capable of casting command undead (2nd level spell that lasts for days)

a difficult to slay undead capable of inflicting ability drain (not just ability damage) and must have the create spawn ability, bonus points if incorporeal and said creature has a poor will saves

an entire orcish encampment for you to use as live sacrifices in your great creation of ability draining spawn, including the women and children

you then, seek out the tarrasque with your army and knock it's drained ability to 0. Touch AC is laughable, and while it is immune to ability damage, it isn't immune to ability drain.

now that the beast is unconscious from ability drain, find a way to discard the corpse into the bottom of a volcano

now. no one can reach it to cast restoration, and it, being perpetually unconscious, will burn faster than it can regenerate.

Shadow Lodge

Harark wrote:
A spellbook filled with explosive runes. Set off one, they chain, and now you have the damage of a Tac-Nuke. 600d6 600 damage minimum. Getting it to stay dead is another story...

Considering you have a way to get Explosive Runes that early, how are you going to get the Tarrasque to read the spellbook to trigger the runes?

Also, it'd be that one page that goes off, not the entire book. They trigger by being read, not by being exploded near. It's not gunpowder or gas.

The Exchange

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
now. no one can reach it to cast restoration, and it, being perpetually unconscious, will burn faster than it can regenerate.

How does it burn at all when it's immune to fire damage?


ProfPotts wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
now. no one can reach it to cast restoration, and it, being perpetually unconscious, will burn faster than it can regenerate.

How does it burn at all when it's immune to fire damage?

the fire wasn't intended to harm it, it was an oversight and a falsely percieved secondary benefit.

the real reason for the volcano

was to prevent random evil clerics from reaching it to give it a restoration or few.

any evil cleric moving in to cast restoration is going to take 20d6 ongoing fire damage per round from merely the convection. that doesn't even count actually stepping into the lava to salvage the beast. and considering how many rounds it takes to cast restoration, it may be easily interrupted.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What about the Fort save vs. ability drain? Even though it is a touch attack, every monster I can find with ability drain has a saving throw associated with it. With a +31 on it's Fort Save, very few of those attacks are going to affect it before it has a chance to wipe out the afore mentioned undead army.


Feros wrote:
What about the Fort save vs. ability drain? Even though it is a touch attack, every monster I can find with ability drain has a saving throw associated with it. With a +31 on it's Fort Save, very few of those attacks are going to affect it before it has a chance to wipe out the afore mentioned undead army.

overwhelm it with enough saves and it will eventually roll a 1. the wraith, an incorpreal CR5 undead deals constitution drain and has create spawn. in fact, the wraith's create spawn ability is the reason you sacrificed an entire orcish encampment.

and the tarrasque has no way to damage said undead.


Doesn't immunity to ability damage extend to ability drain?

They're lumped into the same thing on the Monster Rules page.


You never considered the possibility a poster was just kidding?


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When I saw this thread I assumed it had something to do with an army of low level gunslingers.


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Rynjin, unfortunately despite being listed as "Ability damage or drain" in the monster rules, they are listed as separate immunities in the construct traits description - which gives one all the info they need to say that a tarrasque is not immune to ability drain.


Yeah no it's not really that easy (though it is a smart trick and it's true that tarrasque is weak vs incorporeals)

A fourth level wizard with the Undead Master, Spell Focus and GSF (Necromancy) is going to have at most a DC19 Command Undead spell that lasts for 8 days. And it's single target. And to order an intelligent undead you need to succeed at a charisma check.

So even if we assume a 7/7/7/20/7/16 stat spread, which means the wizard is going to be terribly easy to kill for anyone, you'll have a +3 against, for example, a shadows +2. Failure means it won't follow your order, and no retries.

And of course, this ignores that there's a very small likelyhood that you'll be able to command an incorporeal undead before it kills you at this level, with those stats.

The weakest enemy I can find that would be useful there is in fact the shadow, which has a +4 will save. So first it can roll 15+ to save, then it can roll over you (on average it needs to roll a 12) when you try to order it, and all the time you have to stay within reach for it to hear your orders, including when you order it to, for example, kill of orcs. And this is a wizard with like 8 hp and an AC of 12 or so, so you really don't want those orcs to accidently hit you.

Wraiths have a +6 save and +5 Cha modifier so even harder to command.

Also note that the Tarrasque can outrun shadows (but not wraiths), which means you REALLY need a wraith - and those will generally kill you before you get them unless the DM is REALLY being nice to you (command undead is short range, wraith has +11 stealth, +10 perception and lifesight 60ft, not to mention +7 init compared to that char's -2 or so).

Also, the DC to know a bit of useful information on a wraith is 15, which isn't too hard to do but you'll have to hope you remember the right thing. The DC on the tarrasque is 40.

It's possible in theory, but it's not something you can do unless MASSIVE DM support.


You'd need a Wraith anyway. Shadows inflict ability damage, which the Tarrasque is immune to. I can't think of a single undead that inflicts ability drain weaker than a Wraith. So that's your minimum.

Grand Lodge

Would a 4th level Sorcerer have a better chance?

With some research and planning they could potentially be able to bust into the lair (pulling down walls) with the sun at their backs negating the danger and then spamming Command Undead until the it rolls under 15.

CHR 25 (w/ Eagle's Splendor) +7

Feats
Spell focus (necromancy)
Greater Spell focus (Necromancy)
Undead Master

Command Undead DC 10+2+1+1+7 = 21

A Circlet of Persuasion is within WBL so you can get a +5 on the CHR check to get them to go along with your crazy scheme.


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This is why I really hope they update the Tarrasque with the Spawn of Rovagug traits from the Inner Sea Bestiary. I've already done that myself here.


oracle or sorcerer would be better because they use Cha as their main stat anyway. didn't notice someone else posted that fact but an oracle (juju) would be better because they could control more undead then a sorcerer wizard or cleric of the same lvl.


I was thinking either the Command Undead feat or the spell of the same name plus an Allip. I forgot the spell doesn't care about HD, so you can actually do it at level 3.


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deuxhero wrote:
I was thinking either the Command Undead feat or the spell of the same name plus an Allip. I forgot the spell doesn't care about HD, so you can actually do it at level 3.

Since you are referencing the Allip... This is the first thing I thought of. I was considering posting it earlier, but it isn't compatible with Pathfinder. Still, maybe stir up some ideas.

(3.5) How to Defeat The Tarrasque in 3 Easy Levels:
No particular feats required.

No particular items required.

Be a wizard of level 3.

Put on your robe and wizard hat.

Cast Command Undead on an allip (it's a CR 3 monster, if you can't find any just learn to cast Summon Undead.)

Cast Silent Image in front of the Tarrasque or Invisibility on yourself.

Have the allip attack it. Every hit will take off 3 wisdom on average with no saving throw, and the Tarrasque has an abysmal touch AC, with no way to hit incorporeal targets.

Once at 0 wisdom, it'll be unconscious until its ability score is restored. Cast Unseen Servant and have it shovel dirt into the nasal passages and lungs of the disabled Tarrasque so it can't breathe.
Per the MM, regeneration does not restore HP lost from suffocation, so it will be stuck at negative hit points, at least until some retard unpacks the dirt from its sinuses.

Congratulations! For defeating the Tarrasque, you're now a level 4 wizard, with 1 XP away from level 5. Make some wealth by opening a Bar and Grill on its back.

For added hilarity, take the Precocious Apprentice feat and with some mildly lucky rolls do this at level 1.

Source = 1d4chan Tarrasque. There are some others in there, but this looks to be the most promising low level one.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually got a clue how well this might or might not work in the system it is even meant for, as I haven't played it. So, take with a grain of salt, and if this is nonsense, ignore.

Edit for the header on the spoiler.


A thoroughly amusing thread indeed. I should add the Tarrasque bar and grill as a landmark in my current campaign. Should cause some great lulz for my PCs.


Just realized that a wraith can't really kill it either. Once per minute for a round, the tarrasque can move with a speed of 150. So it takes the run action, moves 750 feet, and now the wraith has to try to find it (with a -75 penalty to perception due to distance).
A tarrasque moves 9*200+750 ft=2550 ft per minute, a wraith moves 10*240=2400 ft. per minute. So a tarrasque can outrun a wraith too.

Darkwolf117 wrote:

Be a wizard of level 3.

Put on your robe and wizard hat.

Cast Command Undead on an allip (it's a CR 3 monster, if you can't find any just learn to cast Summon Undead.)

Assuming "no special feat" and maximized Int, we're looking at a DC of 15 against it's +4 will save, so a decent chance of saving. Also, the wizard has to make a save or be fascinated - spell range is 35 feet, babble is 60 ft. Even with say a +5 will save, which is decently high for a wiz 3, there's a decent chance you'll fail (about as big as the Allip failing to your spell if you manage to cast it).

Also, even if you succeed, you take 1d4 wisdom damage every time you cast the spell on it.

Quote:
Have the allip attack it. Every hit will take off 3 wisdom on average with no saving throw, and the Tarrasque has an abysmal touch AC, with no way to hit incorporeal targets.

Immunity to ability damage, so only critical hits will give it 1 wisdom drain - and the chance for a crit is about 5%, so one drain once every two minutes.

Also, allips are not invisible and have a low speed. Do they really think the tarrasque will just stand around for half an hour while some random spirit is poking it?

Andrew Kennedy wrote:
With some research and planning they could potentially be able to bust into the lair (pulling down walls) with the sun at their backs negating the danger and then spamming Command Undead until the it rolls under 15.

So not only do you have to find a wraith, but you have to find one living _in a house with walls that you can tear down_, and you have to know more or less exactly where it is, and you have to do it in one round so it doesn't just fly down through the floor...

But yeah, a sorcerer would have a better chance. Though it would have far worse skills for knowledge, to know about such a thing as light vulnerability (it has to know about light vulnerability, create spawn, and the ability drain - requiring a DC25 knowledge check).

The Exchange

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
... any evil cleric moving in to cast restoration is going to take 20d6 ongoing fire damage per round from merely the convection...

Convection? In D&D? For shame! ;p


Epic DR means the monsters attacks are also epic for overcoming dr.. Which means a tarrasque natural attacks overcome any dr, including said undead that he would eat in 1 round..

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heh. I had a similar thread at one point about how many commoners it would take to kill demogorgon. I can't remember all of the details, but I think the answer was roughly 40k (each commoner had a longbow, and could only hurt the big D if they scored a critical hit and rolled close to max damage. On the other hand, D killed scores of them due to his aura of death, meteor storms, etc.)

Shadow Lodge

WerePox47 wrote:
Epic DR means the monsters attacks are also epic for overcoming dr.. Which means a tarrasque natural attacks overcome any dr, including said undead that he would eat in 1 round..

I believe that DR/- still applies, doesn't it?

Sczarni

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The real problem everyones forgetting is: if you use an undead with Create Spawn, then they'll create spawn out of the tarrasque itself.

So you haven't defeated the tarrasque, you've created a Wraith Tarrasque.

I'd tell you to run, but that won't save you either.


Ilja wrote:

Just realized that a wraith can't really kill it either. Once per minute for a round, the tarrasque can move with a speed of 150. So it takes the run action, moves 750 feet, and now the wraith has to try to find it (with a -75 penalty to perception due to distance).

A tarrasque moves 9*200+750 ft=2550 ft per minute, a wraith moves 10*240=2400 ft. per minute. So a tarrasque can outrun a wraith too.

It is telling that the tarrasque is running away from the wraith.

I remember a thread a long time ago on drowning where it was suggested that one could neutralize, but not kill, a tarrasque via suffocation.


All of this is assuming that the Tarrasque is even standing still or engaging undead. He's all about destroying things, so he will probably just trample over anyone is his path and keep moving.

Shadow Lodge

JDNYC wrote:
All of this is assuming that the Tarrasque is even standing still or engaging undead. He's all about destroying things, so he will probably just trample over anyone is his path and keep moving.

People ignore a creature's prefered tactics when it suits their argument. For example, see the thread about Lucifer, where some people are trying to argue that he should be fighting a party solo and toe-to-toe.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:


It is telling that the tarrasque is running away from the wraith.

Sure, and I agree that the tarrasque has a lot of design flaws - I'm not here to say that the tarrasque is well-designed (though most of it's big issues are written in stone by legacy). I think it's fun that people come up with these outrageous schemes for killing it off, and stress testing the schemes is part of the fun.

EDIT: Suffocation is a solution for all creatures with regeneration though. Note that there are stuff that are harder to kill off than a tarrasque in terms of simple immortality, though. Or well, it depends on interpretation (whether it's revival from death effects is a triggered or constant effect, basically, since that would determine if it can be aborted with raise dead).

But a half-dragon troll sorcerer 20 of various dragon colors/bloodline combinations can be immune to both acid and fire and thus literally has the ability "cannot die" without any exceptions at all.


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Did you know that with the same level of ingenuity, the Tarrasque can defeat a 4th level character?! This game is so broken.


As I said, I know that wouldn't work on its own.

Brainstorming time!

Ilja wrote:
Assuming "no special feat" and maximized Int, we're looking at a DC of 15 against it's +4 will save, so a decent chance of saving. Also, the wizard has to make a save or be fascinated - spell range is 35 feet, babble is 60 ft. Even with say a +5 will save, which is decently high for a wiz 3, there's a decent chance you'll fail (about as big as the Allip failing to your spell if you manage to cast it).

Sorcerer is probably a better choice to switch your casting stat to Cha. Aasimar perhaps, for a +2 Cha and Wis, giving you a bonus on will saves as well, and even something as simple as Iron Will makes you less likely to fall to its babbling. And once you've sicc'ed it on the Tarrasque, you might be able to just let it do its thing.

And of course, there may be items that can help too. I don't know how strictly we want to adhere to what an actual level 4 adventurer would have. This is theorycrafting right from the start.

Ilja wrote:
Also, even if you succeed, you take 1d4 wisdom damage every time you cast the spell on it.

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but where's that coming from?

Ilja wrote:
Also, allips are not invisible and have a low speed. Do they really think the tarrasque will just stand around for half an hour while some random spirit is poking it?

Perhaps one could lure it into a large cave (i.e. like a mountain to fit the thing) and then collapse the entrance so it can't get back out. I'm sure it could make strength checks to bust out, but even with 41 strength, an avalanche of some sort would have to have a pretty high DC.

Also, is there anything to let you stash a couple allips somewhere ahead of time? If you can get some stuck in there, via command undead, it increases the likelihood to drain that much more for each one you've got, taking less time till it's knocked out. Though if we already have it trapped somewhere so it can't run immediately, it might be worth going back to wraiths. The tarrasque would have to fail its fort save, but a natural 1 against wraiths should crop up just as often as a natural 20 from allips. At 1 Wisdom per hit out of 15 total vs. average 3.5 Con per hit out of 34, it sounds like the wraiths would work better.

Thoughts?


Just to ruin the burrial bit tarrasque has that earth glide ability. So while the undead are waiting it just goes for the next county over and eats all of them instead.


pfsrd wrote:

Madness (Su)

Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic effect makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

Command Undead is clearly mind control for undead, there's AFAIK really only two other things that are undead mind control effects (control undead spell and command undead feat).

Sorcerer is probably way better than wizard, agreed, but then you can't take Undead Master (since you can first cast command undead at 4th level and gain no feat then) which means halved duration. Might not be a big deal though, but if you want more than one allip it might still be. You only get 4 days duration, and only 4 spells per day, so at the very maximum 16 allips - about 40% will save, and 40% of the rest will refuse your order. And you still will have a very, very hard time surviving their babbling, especially once you've cast the spell once or twice and taken a hit to your wisdom.

And those that make the save can still kill you quite easily.

I don't think luring it into a cave would work - it'd have to have a really good reason to go in there. It even says in the description that it's hard to fool it with trickery.

I think standard WBL for 4th level PC should be used.

I don't think Allips are a good idea at all. Their "dpr" is extremely low, and it's extremely risky to deal with them. Wraith seems a better choice (though still extremely risky).

Jack Rift wrote:
Just to ruin the burrial bit tarrasque has that earth glide ability. So while the undead are waiting it just goes for the next county over and eats all of them instead.

What? No it doesn't.


Command Undead (2nd level Sor/Wiz spell) on a Wraith.
And the Tarrasque will implode.
You don't even need to impose Charisma checks on the Wraith, since you give it a command perfectly in line with its nature and from which it doesn't risk any single thing other than the glory of making a Wraith Spawn of the mighty Tarrasque.

Of course, having greater resources allows you to speed up things a lot, but basically you just need a 3rd (not 4th) level Sorcerer or Wizard, which is kind of funny.


Uhm... No, it's not a command perfectly in line with it's nature. Do you have any source at all of that?
"but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. "

Is that an ordinary thing for wraiths to do? Go around attacking gigantic beasts for teh lulz? Why would it?

Also, tarrasque outruns wraith easily - one round and the wraith can't even hope to find it. And it needs to stand around for quite a while for the wraith to get even a chance.

Come on, this has already been shut down. You can do better!

A 3rd level wizard will have a very hard time winning the check, and a very hard time surviving until it can command the creature (wraith has generally superior perception, superior initiative, superior stealth and life sense). A 4th level sorcerer has a little better chance of commanding and ordering it about though.


Ilja wrote:
pfsrd wrote:

Madness (Su)

Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic effect makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

Command Undead is clearly mind control for undead, there's AFAIK really only two other things that are undead mind control effects (control undead spell and command undead feat).

Ah, sneaky. I missed that, looking at the babble and touch of insanity parts. Whoops.

Ilja wrote:
I don't think luring it into a cave would work - it'd have to have a really good reason to go in there. It even says in the description that it's hard to fool it with trickery.

Straight up trickery may not be needed. 700 GP for a scroll of dimension door and a readied action may get you out of the area just as the tarrasque comes in if it's looking to kill you (though you might need to spring for teleport). If it's at all interested in the wraith or whatever else you've got in there for a couple rounds at least, that may give you time to set off whatever shenanigans you've got waiting to cause a landslide.

Edit: Though admittedly, going after a single creature may not be all that interesting to it, if there's a nice juicy town a few miles away. Hmm.

Double edit: NOT to suggest we move a nice juicy town into the cave.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Double edit: NOT to suggest we move a nice juicy town into the cave.

Dwarves are kinda chewy, like old bubble gum, but I've heard svirfneblin taste a bit like turkish delight!


Cast Awaken on the Tarrasque.

Convince it to be a nice person.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Cast Awaken on the Tarrasque.

Convince it to be a nice person.

Awaken wrote:
This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.
Tarrasque Stats wrote:
Str 41, Dex 16, Con 34, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 14

Nope.


...I always though the tarrasque was supposed to be non-sentient.

Having an intelligence of 3 is just silly.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

...I always though the tarrasque was supposed to be non-sentient.

Having an intelligence of 3 is just silly.

Tarrasque wrote:
Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery.

[url=youtu-

Yeah you get the idea.

It's smarter than it looks apparently.


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Well buffing it's intelligence is still a possibility. Getting it up to 12 to let it learn common, and then training it to be a world traveling advice giver.

http://imgur.com/A2Bt4


Silent Saturn wrote:

The real problem everyones forgetting is: if you use an undead with Create Spawn, then they'll create spawn out of the tarrasque itself.

So you haven't defeated the tarrasque, you've created a Wraith Tarrasque.

I'd tell you to run, but that won't save you either.

1: It only effects humanoids like that

2: That's would be GOOD thing actually. Wraith is a creature, not a template. The only thing a Wraith spawned from big t has to do with it mechanically is you need to kill it to restore to life.


Urist it's basicaly D&Ds Godzilla and Godzilla is sentient....but then again I'm a nerd....so...grain of salt.


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Really, it's simple. It involves a scroll of intense flatulence, a pack of Marlboro Lights, a female Corgi in heat, two cans of Dad's Root Beer, a tuna fish sandwich and a picture (an etching is fine, for you medieval types) of Michael Bolton.

I think everybody here can see where I'm going with this. No further explanation necessary, right?


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I could see a 4th Level Party winning against a Tarrasque if they fight smart enough to get it into the right circumstances.

@Urist The Unstoppable: Priceless...

@Bruunwald: That is just... yikes...

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