How fast can you craft a Mithral Full Plate?


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We're going to seek out the greatest possible crafter, assuming that only one use of Aid Another per check is allowed.

She'll be a Samsaran, for +2 racial Int and a +2 racial bonus to Craft (Armor). She's twentieth levels, with all five level bumps in Int, a +6 Headband of Int, a +5 Inherent bonus to Int, and a +2 Profane bonus to Int from a Succubus, for a total of 38 Int.

Naturally, she has Skill Focus (Craft (Armor)) and Prodigy (Craft (Armor) and something else). Unfortunately, masterwork armorsmith's tools don't stack with Cooperative Crafting, as they are both circumstance bonuses.

Her assistant is a 20th-level Alchemist feeding her Grand Cognatogens regularly so that the +8 alchemical bonus to Int is always active (and extracts of Lesser Restoration to undo the ability damage they cause). She also receives an extract of Crafter's Fortune each week. In order to use the Grand Cognatogens, our crafter has at least one level in alchemist. Her assistant has Cooperative Crafting to help and is Aiding Another for an additional +2.

Since we are sparing no expense, she also has a legion of 19th-level Bards who are Inspiring Competence round-the-clock to give her a +6 competence bonus.

Finally, the Adopted --> Collector trait gives her an additional +2 bonus, since she crafts where her collection is.

So, in total, our bonus to Craft (Armor) is;

+18 (Int)
+5 (Luck from Crafter's Fortune)
+2 (Aid Another)
+6 (Skill Focus)
+4 (Prodigy)
+2 (Trait from Collector)
+6 (Competence from Bardic Performance)
+2 (Racial)
+2 (Circumstance from Cooperative Crafting)
+20 (full ranks)
+3 (class skill)

For a total of +70.

(Only one of the crafter's twenty levels has been fixed, so if anyone knows any other first-party Craft bonuses that class levels could provide, please remind me and I'll add them.)

Now, we want to find the absolute fastest that Mithral Full Plate could possibly be crafted, so we'll assume that divine intervention grants our crafter a 20 on every Craft check, for a total of 90.

Mithral Full Plate costs 10,500 gp, or 105,000 sp, and since it provides a +9 armor bonus, its DC is 19, which we increase to 29 to make the job faster. Each week, we make 29*90*2 sp worth of progress (the *2 comes from Cooperative Crafting), for a total of 5220 sp per week. It will take 21 weeks of crafting to complete the armor at this rate, so our dedicated perfect armorsmith who rolls a natural 20 on every check requires almost five months to complete a mundane set of Mithral Full Plate. It is not physically possible, as far as I know, to create Mithral Full Plate any faster than this.

Unless you're a ninth-level Wizard, in which case Fabricate can do it in six seconds.

Liberty's Edge

Mundane crafting is utterly broken.

There's a 3rd party PDF with a rules rewrite that works pretty well.


Feral wrote:

Mundane crafting is utterly broken.

There's a 3rd party PDF with a rules rewrite that works pretty well.

Be so kind as to share the name of said PDF?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unfortunately, masterwork armorsmith's tools don't stack with Cooperative Crafting, as they are both circumstance bonuses.

Circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses provided they are from different circumstances.


Ravingdork wrote:
Circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses provided they are from different circumstances.

Oops, you're right, I keep thinking that rule only applies to Dodge bonuses.

Good news, we can now craft Mithral Full Plate in a mere 20 weeks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Circumstance (from differing circumstances), dodge, racial, and unnamed bonuses all stack with themselves.


BuzzardB wrote:


Be so kind as to share the name of said PDF?

Might be this one. Then again, it might not.


Damon Griffin wrote:
BuzzardB wrote:


Be so kind as to share the name of said PDF?
Might be this one. Then again, it might not.

Well, good enough I say. Bought and implemented. Thank you.


You could get another +20 and a much quicker build time if the crafter was a soul forger magus which if my maths isn't totally messed up using your modifiers would make it about 2 weeks.


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One thing I worked up for a GM one time is the following:

Crafting Time
Time in Days = (DC - 4)*DC/Result

This formula is totally independent of material costs.

Examples
A wooden spoon, DC 5, would take 1 day if you just make the DC (5-4)*5/5 = 1 day.
A roll of 20 would produce 4 wooden spoons
(5-4)*5/20 = .25 days
A roll of 40 would be 8 spoons a day (how fast CAN you whittle?)

Armor, a DC 20 item, would take 16 days if you just made the DC. A roll of 40 would be 8 days.

Failure
Make 1 roll/7 days (only the first roll determines how long it takes), and every failure costs you half the raw materials of the item. Items with shorter crafting times have only one roll.

Mass production
A crafter can make batches of items, up to a total skill level*5 gp in items per day - any items more expensive then that restricts manufacturing and can only be made one at a time. Feats may modify this. Master alchemist, for instance, would increase the formula to skill level*50 gp, and make an additional number of doses equal to your int modifier.

Example
A smith with an effective skill 10 in Craft(Weapon) would take a 5 - 11 days to make swords (DC 15), depending on their roll, but could make them in batches of 3 (since each sword is 15 gp and he can craft 5*10 = 50 gp of items a week). However, were he to craft a masterwork or silver blade all his attention would be focused on it.

These rules have seen minimal playtest (my GM doesn't have much of a head for math and abandoned them quickly), but the math looks pretty to me.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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You can also increase the DC in increments of 10, you're not limited to just 10. So you could pop the DC to 89.

You forget that all Mithral full plate is automatically masterwork, with a base DC of 20, so your starting DC is 29, BEFORE you add 10.

==Aelryinth


Easiest way to fix crafting. Remove step one, and replace all instances of SP with GP. Grats crafting now makes much more sense


GP makes it faster, but it does not make "sense"

The formula is (right now)

Days = ( Cost in sp)/(DC*result)

The more difficult an item, the faster it goes. Counterintuitive. Scaling by 10 does not fix that.

The easiest fix, and arguably RAI, is not to add special material costs to items. Still doesn't fix the above problem of DC vs time trending, or poisons (ridiculously expensive), it just makes crafting times work on human scales.

Oh, I realized I called out the wrong DC for armor. It's 19, as per the original poster.

Aelryinth: my reading of the rules indicates the Masterwork DC is a parallel and seperate check, not a base DC for crafting. So it is a DC 19 and DC 20 check for masterwork full plate,, not one DC 29 check.

Shadow Lodge

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One of the problems with the system is the design concept of "If it can be done in any possible way, then it can also be done via a magical spell". Fabricate should be nerfed to not being able to create masterwork equipment, and to not be able to create items out of non-standard materials.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unless you're a ninth-level Wizard, in which case Fabricate can do it in six seconds.

Very few wizards however will master the Craft Arms/Armor skill sufficiently enough to make "the appropriate DC" check as mandated by the spell. said appropriate DC pretty much being up to the DM. For those who think Fabricate is an unlimited way to make stuff wizard players do need to remember that all craft skills are separate investments. And may require other skill checks as well such as Engineering for truly major constructions.


LazarX wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unless you're a ninth-level Wizard, in which case Fabricate can do it in six seconds.
Very few wizards however will master the Craft Arms/Armor skill sufficiently enough to make "the appropriate DC" check as mandated by the spell. said appropriate DC pretty much being up to the DM. For those who think Fabricate is an unlimited way to make stuff wizard players do need to remember that all craft skills are separate investments. And may require other skill checks as well such as Engineering for truly major constructions.

Aren't there some wizard spells/divine wand-able spells that give you a plus 10 or more once on a skill-check? and since your crafting in a town with no distractions you can simply take 10? and with wizard mental stats usually being stacked the bonuses he'd have a fair bonus.

So yeah another thing wizards are broken OP about is mundane crafting now!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeusTerran wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unless you're a ninth-level Wizard, in which case Fabricate can do it in six seconds.
Very few wizards however will master the Craft Arms/Armor skill sufficiently enough to make "the appropriate DC" check as mandated by the spell. said appropriate DC pretty much being up to the DM. For those who think Fabricate is an unlimited way to make stuff wizard players do need to remember that all craft skills are separate investments. And may require other skill checks as well such as Engineering for truly major constructions.

Aren't there some wizard spells/divine wand-able spells that give you a plus 10 or more once on a skill-check? and since your crafting in a town with no distractions you can simply take 10? and with wizard mental stats usually being stacked the bonuses he'd have a fair bonus.

So yeah another thing wizards are broken OP about is mundane crafting now!

In ordered answers to your question:

No.

And since Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, you can't take 10 (or 20) on the Craft (or other) check.


Crafter's Fortune gives a +5 bonus to Craft. A ninth-level wizard can easily afford 24 Int, so that's a +7 from the attribute. So even with no ranks in Craft, the wizard is looking at a +12. Craft can be used untrained, so that's not an obstacle. The DC for Craft checks for heavy armor is only 19, so the wizard has a 70% chance of passing and can probably do it on the first or second attempt. The wizard's high Int means she can easily afford to put one measly rank into Craft, which bumps the probability of success to 90%. Pick up a masterwork tool, higher Int, Aid Another, or something of that sort and you're at 100%.

Huh, I didn't know about Soul Forger. So apparently Paizo realized Craft was unusable and responded by... making it usable for one obscure weak Magus archetype?


LazarX wrote:

In ordered answers to your question:

No.

And since Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, you can't take 10 (or 20) on the Craft (or other) check.

I was wrong on the buff, my fault. I could argue that they could in fact take 10, but "distraction" is a person to person basis really so no point in that one.

Also, casting time for fabricate is 1 full round per 10 cubic feet (and in since this is a mineral conversion, only 1 cubic foot per level can be converted) of material. so NOT instantaneous

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeusTerran wrote:
LazarX wrote:

In ordered answers to your question:

No.

And since Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, you can't take 10 (or 20) on the Craft (or other) check.

I was wrong on the buff, my fault. I could argue that they could in fact take 10, but "distraction" is a person to person basis really so no point in that one.

Also, casting time for fabricate is 1 full round per 10 cubic feet (and in since this is a mineral conversion, only 1 cubic foot per level can be converted) of material. so NOT instantaneous

You still can't "take 10" because you can't vary the casting time. The casting takes a period of time true, but during each part of that period you're converting raw material to finished product. So essentially you're getting only that one shot.

Also remember that the masterwork component is a DC 20

Fast crafting adds 10 to both DC's, and as a DM, I'd say that such super fast crafting adds another 10.


Why would casting time have anything to do with it? Taking 10 doesn't represent multiple attempts and it doesn't take any more or less time than a regular skill check.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:
LazarX wrote:

In ordered answers to your question:

No.

And since Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, you can't take 10 (or 20) on the Craft (or other) check.

I was wrong on the buff, my fault. I could argue that they could in fact take 10, but "distraction" is a person to person basis really so no point in that one.

Also, casting time for fabricate is 1 full round per 10 cubic feet (and in since this is a mineral conversion, only 1 cubic foot per level can be converted) of material. so NOT instantaneous

You still can't "take 10" because you can't vary the casting time. The casting takes a period of time true, but during each part of that period you're converting raw material to finished product. So essentially you're getting only that one shot.

Also remember that the masterwork component is a DC 20

Fast crafting adds 10 to both DC's, and as a DM, I'd say that such super fast crafting adds another 10.

Taking 10 does not imply taking multiple attempts or taking more time at all. In fact, it is explicitly the same action as normal. It merely means that you're working without distractions or stress and represents how those in that position are unlikely to fail at average tasks. This is why you cannot take 10 in combat, for example.

You're thinking of taking 20, which does represent 20 separate checks with escalating results (1, then 2, then 3 and so on).


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Try parting the work out to different smiths. Speeds things up considerably.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
StabbittyDoom wrote:
LazarX wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:
LazarX wrote:

In ordered answers to your question:

No.

And since Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, you can't take 10 (or 20) on the Craft (or other) check.

I was wrong on the buff, my fault. I could argue that they could in fact take 10, but "distraction" is a person to person basis really so no point in that one.

Also, casting time for fabricate is 1 full round per 10 cubic feet (and in since this is a mineral conversion, only 1 cubic foot per level can be converted) of material. so NOT instantaneous

You still can't "take 10" because you can't vary the casting time. The casting takes a period of time true, but during each part of that period you're converting raw material to finished product. So essentially you're getting only that one shot.

Also remember that the masterwork component is a DC 20

Fast crafting adds 10 to both DC's, and as a DM, I'd say that such super fast crafting adds another 10.

Taking 10 does not imply taking multiple attempts or taking more time at all. In fact, it is explicitly the same action as normal. It merely means that you're working without distractions or stress and represents how those in that position are unlikely to fail at average tasks. This is why you cannot take 10 in combat, for example.

You're thinking of taking 20, which does represent 20 separate checks with escalating results (1, then 2, then 3 and so on).

You can only take 10 on a craft check if you're doing it at a normal relaxed pace. However the Fabricate spell is essentially a hyper-rushed craft check so I consider it a stress situation, which precludes taking 10.

Pathfinder core rules are essentially silent on this, leaving this up to GM interpretation. My ruling on this allows wizards to use fabricate for trivial constructions, while not trivialising those characters who are supposed to be Master Smiths. Again, if you want your world where magic is the ruling master over all things mundane as well as wondrous then you're perfectly justified in ignoring everything I say.

It really does come down to what kind of flavor you wish to set.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses provided they are from different circumstances.

Oops, you're right, I keep thinking that rule only applies to Dodge bonuses.

Good news, we can now craft Mithral Full Plate in a mere 20 weeks!

For crafting something that's essentially the Everest of armorcraft, the handiwork of only the greatest masters, that's pretty damm quick.


LazarX wrote:
For crafting something that's essentially the Everest of armorcraft, the handiwork of only the greatest masters, that's pretty damm quick.

For a level 5 expert? Perhaps.

For a level 20 alchemist with a level 16 alchemist cohort assistant being cheered by a choir of level 19 bards continuously, dedicating her entire life to being the best crafter ever to the point of literally making deals with demons to improve his armor-crafting and who is so amazingly lucky that she rolls a natural 20 on every check because we're trying to see the absolute fastest it is physically possible for her to finish? 20 weeks is an insult.

Again, a 9th-level wizard with three ranks in Craft can do it 100% of the time in six seconds.

Meanwhile, a 5th-level wizard can enhance armor with a +10-equivalent bonus in under two months. I'd have thought bending the arcane forces of the universe to the point where the armor cannot physically contain any further magic would be a more Olympian task than making a heavy suit of armor from an expensive metal.


Roberta Yang wrote:
LazarX wrote:
For crafting something that's essentially the Everest of armorcraft, the handiwork of only the greatest masters, that's pretty damm quick.

For a level 5 expert? Perhaps.

For a level 20 alchemist with a level 16 alchemist cohort assistant being cheered by a choir of level 19 bards continuously, dedicating her entire life to being the best crafter ever to the point of literally making deals with demons to improve his armor-crafting and who is so amazingly lucky that she rolls a natural 20 on every check because we're trying to see the absolute fastest it is physically possible for her to finish? 20 weeks is an insult.

Again, a 9th-level wizard with three ranks in Craft can do it 100% of the time in six seconds.

Meanwhile, a 5th-level wizard can enhance armor with a +10-equivalent bonus in under two months. I'd have thought bending the arcane forces of the universe to the point where the armor cannot physically contain any further magic would be a more Olympian task than making a heavy suit of armor from an expensive metal.

Where as a Lvl 7 Soul Forger with an 18 Int and masterwork tools taking 10's can do it in 11 weeks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
LazarX wrote:
For crafting something that's essentially the Everest of armorcraft, the handiwork of only the greatest masters, that's pretty damm quick.

For a level 5 expert? Perhaps.

For a level 20 alchemist with a level 16 alchemist cohort assistant being cheered by a choir of level 19 bards continuously, dedicating her entire life to being the best crafter ever to the point of literally making deals with demons to improve his armor-crafting and who is so amazingly lucky that she rolls a natural 20 on every check because we're trying to see the absolute fastest it is physically possible for her to finish? 20 weeks is an insult.

Again, a 9th-level wizard with three ranks in Craft can do it 100% of the time in six seconds.

Or more likely said wizard will have a ruined lump of mithral as he's not making the craft check with just three ranks. As I've already explained, this is a rushed craft check, so that's +10 to the DC of 20 for the masterwork and the dc for the armorcraft and no taking 10 or 20 on the 2 rolls.


LazarX wrote:
Or more likely said wizard will have a ruined lump of mithral as he's not making the craft check with just three ranks. As I've already explained, this is a rushed craft check, so that's +10 to the DC of 20 for the masterwork and the dc for the armorcraft and no taking 10 or 20 on the 2 rolls.

... but a lump of mithril is still mithril. So what's to stop the wizard from just casting his spell again and making the check a second time? Fabricate doesn't actually care about what state the materials are in, so long as the material mass is there (though "quality" counts... in an unspecified manner).

Also, Laz, I think you're contention is that considering it a rushed check is only your interpretation - a house rule - rather than the RAW or RAI, yes? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to make sure we're clear.

Roberta, it's six seconds if it's less than 10 cubic feet of material, or one cubic foot for metal; while that certainly functions well for plate armor (which is your main point in this thread), that makes it more difficult for anything else. Not a lot more difficult, but more difficult.

Other possible house-rule "fixes" are to simply make fabricate unable to create masterwork items and/or, like Laz, impose an inability to take 10 or consider it a rushed check. If you still want wizards to have super-fabricate powers, though, you could make a higher level spell (seventh, likely, given the two-spell-level increases-for-better-effect of other spells) that allows things the basic one doesn't.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tacticslion wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Or more likely said wizard will have a ruined lump of mithral as he's not making the craft check with just three ranks. As I've already explained, this is a rushed craft check, so that's +10 to the DC of 20 for the masterwork and the dc for the armorcraft and no taking 10 or 20 on the 2 rolls.

... but a lump of mithril is still mithril. So what's to stop the wizard from just casting his spell again and making the check a second time? Fabricate doesn't actually care about what state the materials are in, so long as the material mass is there (though "quality" counts... in an unspecified manner).

Also, Laz, I think you're contention is that considering it a rushed check is only your interpretation - a house rule - rather than the RAW or RAI, yes? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to make sure we're clear.

Your contention that would be a normal check IS ALSO A HOUSE RULE as the text is silent on this. So I use my version of Occam's Razor and go with the house rule that makes sense. Standard craft checks assume you take normal time. Craft checks which are made on a rushed basis add a +10 to the DC. These two sentences are from RAW if you're going to be that way about this. So my houserule has that much justification in it's conclusion. Because I think you'd have a very hard time justifying to me that a craft check made in such a short casting time is anything but Rushed.

Fabricate requires RAW materials to work with. Once materials have been shaped by this spell they are now worked materials, not raw materials. (Which is why you can't use Fabricate to take down someone's house)


LazarX wrote:
Or more likely said wizard will have a ruined lump of mithral as he's not making the craft check with just three ranks. As I've already explained, this is a rushed craft check, so that's +10 to the DC of 20 for the masterwork and the dc for the armorcraft and no taking 10 or 20 on the 2 rolls.

Bzzt, wrong. +10 to craft quickly is a voluntary option to craft faster than base crafting speed. Using the Fabricate isn't crafting, it's magical transmutation. The check is only to make sure that the wizard can actually comprehend the form and function of what he's trying to make; it in no way involves actual hasty preparation on his part. Moreover, the +10 only applies to weekly or daily checks; the crafting check for Fabricate is neither of these. You're free to take 10 if you please and the spell doesn't list any adverse result if you fail the craft check so it doesn't even ruin your materials so, provided adequate peace and quiet, you can freely take 20 to get a perfect idea in your head of what you're going to make and then cast the spell based on that mental image.


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Maybe Fabricate is like super-rushed and it's a plus infinity to the DC oh man you guys Fabricate is balanced now.


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Uh, Laz, I think you took what I was saying waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too aggressively (either that or I'm reading your response overly aggressively for which I apologize). I never said that your idea didn't make sense, I was just clarifying that it was, in fact, a house rule.

Second, if the text is silent, the presumption is always that it doesn't apply, meaning that you are reaching further that you presupposed that I was (when it wasn't even a contention of mine in the first place: I was simply trying to clarify what you were saying). And fabricate isn't indicated to be "rushed". Ergo, it's a choice for a house rule - and a perfectly valid one - but only that.

LazaraX wrote:
Fabricate requires RAW materials to work with. Once materials have been shaped by this spell they are now worked materials, not raw materials. (Which is why you can't use Fabricate to take down someone's house)

... that would make Fabricate really weak, as raw materials are entirely unprocessed, in which case it wouldn't need your balancing, because it's really difficult to get an un-worked (non purified) lump of mithril (or most anything other than wood from felled trees) outside of the GM's purview anyway or a mithral mine anyway.

Regardless, that's an incorrect assertion, as Fabricate makes absolutely no mention of raw materials anyway except that it requires an amount of a specified material equal to the value of the raw materials, and it certainly wouldn't work to make repairs to a ship (as is called out right there on that page) without being able to incorporate already-worked goods into material.

Taking a look at the Craft rules, they even go so far as to specify that...

Craft Rules wrote:
In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. You must still make an appropriate Craft check when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

... which means that those things that don't require a "high degree" of craftsmanship, which I'm presuming that refers to anything of a DC 10 based on or lower, but that's entirely a presumption based on...

Skill Checks wrote:
For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful.

... found under Taking 10 and Taking 20, not a RAW description of what that means.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that you were "wrong", only trying to clear up what you meant and to make sure we were all communicating.


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Lv 8 Samsaran (7 Soul Forger/1 Arcanamirium Crafter)
Int: 22

Headband of Vast Intelligence +4

Amazing Tools of Manufacture /Armor

Feats: Prodigy, Skill Focus, Arcane Builder (this feat is gravy and not used in the calcs below)

Lv 1 wizard assistant w/ Cooperative Crafting feat

Adjusted Skill: 39

Base Armor Cost: $10,500

Dived by 10 for Soul Forger = $1,050

Amaz. Tools do $2,000 gp of work per hour
Coop Crafting doubles work per hour to $4,000 gp

Total time to create: 15 minutes, 45 seconds

Since you've go the skill check nailed, take the skill penalty to speed up work time and knock it out in 7 minutes and 53 seconds.

If you go magical, Arcane Builder kicks in and with the +5 penalty from rushing, you can crank out a +2 Slick Mithiral Full Plate suit in 51 minutes and 20 seconds.


I don't get it. What does the crafter level do? It doesn't look like it does anything much until 3rd class level, and even then only affects magic items.


Moment of prescience can raise this up by 25. And good Hope will increase it by 2.

Also, he fastest crafter is a wizard with Fabricate.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At this point I don't have anything further to add, I've made it clear as to how I run it for home games and Fabricate effectively isn't an allowed spell in PFS anyway.

You've heard my thoughts on the issue, what's right is really up to you DM's and it all depends on how you want Craft Wizards and Master Craft Smiths to operate in your worlds.

There isn't a "right" answer on this one because Paizo is silent on the relevant issue and I suspect deliberately so in order to leave this as a customisable option for GM's to flavor their worlds as they see fit.

I choose my options so that great mastercrafters can co-exist on a world with great wizards without being absolutely redundant. My only intention is to show a choice in rules interpretation and to highlight the consequences of such choices.


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Mortuum wrote:
I don't get it. What does the crafter level do? It doesn't look like it does anything much until 3rd class level, and even then only affects magic items.

Crafter is a wizard which is a prereq for Arcane Builder which honestly is superflous to mundane crafting but very signifcant in crafting magical items and as wizards go, Crafter seemed to be the best flavor fit.


In the interest of providing a frame of reference, here is a thread from another forum in which an armourer who was ranked among the modern world's best armourers (until his retirement) chronicles the start-to-finish manufacture of a full plate harness. The date stamps on the posts indicate that it took him almost a year, though I know he didn't work on it all day, every day, as we might expect our Pathfinder armourer to do.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43459&hi lit=+The+Making+of+a+Suit+in+Pictures+

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Tangaroa wrote:

GP makes it faster, but it does not make "sense"

The formula is (right now)

Days = ( Cost in sp)/(DC*result)

The more difficult an item, the faster it goes. Counterintuitive. Scaling by 10 does not fix that.

The easiest fix, and arguably RAI, is not to add special material costs to items. Still doesn't fix the above problem of DC vs time trending, or poisons (ridiculously expensive), it just makes crafting times work on human scales.

Oh, I realized I called out the wrong DC for armor. It's 19, as per the original poster.

Aelryinth: my reading of the rules indicates the Masterwork DC is a parallel and seperate check, not a base DC for crafting. So it is a DC 19 and DC 20 check for masterwork full plate,, not one DC 29 check.

Stop thinking of it as 'more difficult' and more as 'value of the work being done'. Remember, the base item itself is more valuable, and can only be done by those with greater skill. Thus, each 'day of work', your work is more valuable because you are working on something that requires immense amounts of skill, versus something an apprentice can do.

In short, your 'wage' is going up. You can get out the mithral full plate in 20 weeks, and your apprentice can get out a chain shirt in 20 weeks. Who is 'making more per hour'? you are indeed doing more work, and also work requiring greater skill...of course you are making more per day!

Also, you can raise the DC in increments of 10 as much as you want, so you can actually set the DC to 89, and since you take 10 as 90, you can create 8010 silver/week, which gets you a set of mastercrafted mithral full plate in something around 12 weeks.

note that is also making you 810 gold/week, which after you remove half for costs, is a 400 gp/week, which is a significant income! Of course, you do have to pay that choir of 19th level bards...

-
As for Fabricate, just house rule it that casting it replaces exactly one day of labor - poof! you've got a day's worth of crafting done. Gratis.
Furthermore, Fabricated items of a type all look exactly identical, operating off a base template that is instantly recognizable to any craftsman who's seen one before. Anyone with a rank in Appraise or a relevant Craft skill can identify a completely Fabricated item on sight, and likely will only buy it at steep discount (10-50% below market).
Next, any adverse checks for crafting should still occur to the user, esp if used to make poisons. Note you can't take 10 or 20 on making poisons because of the risk involved...
Thirdly, Fabricated items are completely unsuitable for magical use/components/items, as their magical essence is 'used up' in their creation. Hence the price discount, as they are only good for mundane use.
Lastly, don't allow Fabricate to make masterwork items. This effectively makes it impossible to make mithral/adamantine items, and really cuts down on the abuse.

If you want Fabricate to make 'completed complex items' in one spell, then make it dispellable, i.e. a temporary item that nevertheless lasts longer then Minor Creation, but is effectively unsellable. One dispel, and it reverts back to component elements.

These minor changes let you choose the utility of Fabricate...either it's a crafting accelerator, or a short-term fix to an equipment problems.

==Aelryinth


ok... i was thinking...
i'm not an adventurer,i am a human and i've decided to become the village smith. i buy my house,and i put in it a little lab for working. a group of adventurers come to me,they heard i'm the man they need(my father told them). they want a full plate(not a mithril one)! good! now i'm starting to work,perfect.
i'm level 1,so i put 1 rank in the crafting skill,and i took the 3 bonus.
i took the feat:skill focus,3 other ranks.
i put my greatest stat (let's suppose i've 18 on int) on crafting,and that's another 4.
and... wow,i bought the perfect crafting kit,so i have another 2.
i have... 13. wow :D
i can take 10,and i do so,because i cannot afford to fail and lose money.
so it's a 23.
i multiply it for the dc for crafting the armor,19

23 x 19 = 437
wow,lot of money :D now... i have to reach... 15000 O.O
now... i'm going to craft the armor in... a bit over 240 days... what??
i'm a smith! why i cannot craft an armor??
why,if i'm over 20 times my actual ability,like Roberta Yang said... i cannot build it in nearly one week?(or could probably do it in few hours,considering i could be able to defeat some dragons with... a spoon?)
now... a wizard come,level 9,and in round he craft the armor??
(and yes,he could take 10 on the ability,it's not something as fast as you could think.. i'm a wizard,and i'm only doing a spell... my wife is far away from the house... my magical defences assure me enemies are not near my house... and my crow is in the tower,quietly sleeping(just because he decided to). i'm not in a stress situation.)
why!!!
T_T (sorry for my bad english)


Because the crafting rules don't work well and for every single skill there's always a spell that does the job better, because wizards are incredibly strong and making them weaker is controversial and hard to do well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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i posted Fabricate fixes above. Just go with those.

And spending most of a year to make the finest masterwork armor out of a precious metal is not out of line historically. making something beautiful AND functional takes time. Especially when working with metal harder then steel.

==Aelryinth


Dot.


Aelryinth wrote:

i posted Fabricate fixes above. Just go with those.

And spending most of a year to make the finest masterwork armor out of a precious metal is not out of line historically. making something beautiful AND functional takes time. Especially when working with metal harder then steel.

==Aelryinth

Historically, no one in existence has ever been a 20th level alchemist with a 38 Int. You're talking 3rd level Expert, tops, and maybe a 20.


Personally,
I've never added the cost for special materials into the cost of making the suit. Making a diamond ring or a quartz ring should be the same time, the diamond is just worth more than the quartz as materials.

Using this interpretation of the rules, the material cost of the mtihral does not add to the crafting time, just the DC (which slows down crafting time, but doesn't make it take months). It actually works out pretty well in my games.

It is, of course, quasi houserule, since it's an interpretation of the rules, and could be argued to be wrong. :)


The focused trance revelation from the Lore Mystery gives a +20 circumstance bonus to one intelligence based check.


mdt wrote:

Personally,

I've never added the cost for special materials into the cost of making the suit. Making a diamond ring or a quartz ring should be the same time, the diamond is just worth more than the quartz as materials.

Using this interpretation of the rules, the material cost of the mtihral does not add to the crafting time, just the DC (which slows down crafting time, but doesn't make it take months). It actually works out pretty well in my games.

It is, of course, quasi houserule, since it's an interpretation of the rules, and could be argued to be wrong. :)

I agree with you on this idea, but I wanted to point out that the DC going up actually makes the work go faster (presuming you can regularly make said DC without failure), since you multiply your check by the DC to determine progress. Weird? Yes. But them's the rules.


And actually, it occurs to me I should probably respond to the OP if I;m going to chime in on this thread at all.

In my group, we've always allowed that Accelerated Crafting can be applied more than once. As in, up the DC to 49, or 59, or whatever you like and think you can still pull off. In the case of your original +70 check with the assumption of hitting the 20 on each one, we would increase the DC to 89.

89*90*2=16,020 silver pieces a week, which has the job done in about 7 weeks. Still a while? Yep. But waaaay faster, and more reasonable given the level of skill involved.

This always made sense to me. Presuming that accelerated crafting is ever going to be possible (which, in real world terms, it isn't necessarily, but let's assume that your unbelievable skill has you coming up with new ways to heat and/or cool metal), then why the hell can't you speed it up even further the better you get?

Granted, none of this solves the Fabricate issue, but really, I never thought it should. It's not "fair" that the wizard can do this nigh-infinitely faster than the super-dedicated higher level mundane crafter...but then, that guy can't cast Fireball, either. It's a magic spell, the wizard is inherently cheating at physics. This is the unfortunate fact of a world with magic advanced beyond current technology - the wizard is, in essence, working with the equivalent of heavy machinery, where the crafter is (literally) using a forge.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unless you're a ninth-level Wizard, in which case Fabricate can do it in six seconds.

A ninth level Wizard isn't going to make the crafting DC needed. He can't take 10, he probably doesn't have the skill ranks needed, so no... it can't happen that way. And one can even levey a penalty for an extremely complex construction being rushed.

Mithral Full Plate is an example of the greatest expression of armor craft that one can obtain. It's not something that should be knocked off as a weekend project.

Mundane crafting is not the problem, it's the ridiculous leeway that DM's give the Fabricate spell.

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