Invisibility Questions


Rules Questions


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For the purposes of determining a Perception Check penalty / bonus when pinpointing an invisible creature, could I get some clarification as to what is meant by 'in combat'?

Reference from CRB:

Invisible creature is... In combat or speaking
Perception DC Modifier –20

Would an invisible mage casting a spell (from within combat) with only somatic components (no verbal) and not taking a move action apply the +20 Perception Check DC for non-movement, or does the movement of casting violate that?

In the following scenario, what would be the Perception Check DC to pinpoint the invisible creature? (Please break out the modifiers so I can follow along, if you don't mind)

A mage casts Invisibility prior to combat. Combat ensues. Mage is casting Summon Monster from within 30 ft. of enemy. Mage is not moving. Enemy wants to use Perception to pinpoint where mage is.

I am about to introduce Invisibility into my game and I've never had to deal with it tactically. I was hoping that the players around here could give me some examples of how invisibility can be properly used from a Wizard point of view, and what might need to be avoided to minimize rules misunderstandings.

Thanks,

Yves


In Combat in this case means engaged in combat. With normal invisibility, you won't get into this situation because the basic invisibility drops the moment you initiate an attack; however, there are ways (greater invisibility for example) to remain unseen while in combat.

So in this case, 'in combat' does not mean 'involved in a situation with an initiative counter and opposing forces' but rather 'actively involved in fighting another target'. It gets less clear when it is ranged, but you can reasonably assume that an enemy would be able to see arrows or magic missiles popping into existence and deduce the general location of the invisible person.

I believe that so long as the invisible caster is not talking or doing anything to make lots of noise* then they will have the standard invisibility bonus.

* - GM's discretion.

Understand the rules are a bit vague here because it has a lot to do with how the GM wants it to work. So consider if someone is invisible, what would he have to do to be located within a 5' by 5' area? Saying something is clear, as is hitting someone with a sword while standing next to them, or firing an arrow. Would the rustling of clothes while casting a spell? I'd say it depends on whether the sound overcomes current ambient volume.

In your first example, I'd give the mage the +20 bonus. In the second (assuming they are not using Silent Spell and we assume Summon Monster isn't considered an offensive spell that would instantly remove basic Invisibility), I would not include the +20. Other bonuses would be standard.


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Baron_Yves wrote:
A mage casts Invisibility prior to combat. Combat ensues. Mage is casting Summon Monster from within 30 ft. of enemy. Mage is not moving. Enemy wants to use Perception to pinpoint where mage is.

Before combat:

DC 20 Perception check: notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet

DC 40 Perception check: pinpoint an invisible creature's location (Base 20, +20 invisible)

If the mage is moving at half speed: DC 35 (Base 20, +20 invisible, -5 moving half)
If the mage is moving at full speed: DC 30 (Base 20, +20 invisible, -10 moving full)

Combat ensues:

DC 40+X Perception check: pinpoint an invisible creature's location

Base DC 20, +20 from invisible, -20 due to in combat, +20 due to not moving, +X (+1 per 10 feet away)

I'm taking this primarily from Invisibility in the glossary. The reason I'm breaking out the base 20 from the +20 from being invisible is to fit with the increase in DC listed in the Perception skill.

You don't get the +20 bonus for not moving outside of combat because the table only applies if you're moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

This all gets weird if the mage is using Stealth.


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Stealth Time!

Mage uses Stealth to move at half speed: DC 55+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Using Stealth
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Mage somehow uses Stealth without moving: DC 80+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+20 Using Stealth
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

However! If the assumption is the chart listing for "Invisible creature is Using Stealth" is intended to be/include the same bonus listed in the stealth skill, that puts the DC at a slightly more reasonable value.

Moving half speed: DC 35+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Not Moving DC 60+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance


Grick wrote:

Stealth Time!

Mage uses Stealth to move at half speed: DC 55+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Using Stealth
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Mage somehow uses Stealth without moving: DC 80+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+20 Using Stealth
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

However! If the assumption is the chart listing for "Invisible creature is Using Stealth" is intended to be/include the same bonus listed in the stealth skill, that puts the DC at a slightly more reasonable value.

Moving half speed: DC 35+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Not Moving DC 60+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Grick, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks for the work on this.

Yves


Baron_Yves wrote:
Grick, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks for the work on this.

Don't count on it until you've verified it for yourself, and preferably gotten some more opinions on it. Stealth is kind of tricky, so it's very possible that I overlooked something.


There is definitely something wrong with that perception modifiers chart. There 20+stealth check rule, for instance cannot be RAI.


So the question seems to be what "in combat" means.

Does it mean, "entering combat initiative and taking actions," or does it mean, "the actual act of fighting"?

---Myca


oynaz wrote:
There is definitely something wrong with that perception modifiers chart. There 20+stealth check rule, for instance cannot be RAI.

Why not? Stealth is opposed by perception, besides appropriate modifiers, and invisibility states explicitly that it gives a +20 on stealth checks.

Looking at the Invisibility rules from the glossary, it specifically says that an invisible creature using stealth requires a Perception DC of their Stealth Check +20. Seems pretty concrete to me.

Myca wrote:

So the question seems to be what "in combat" means.

Does it mean, "entering combat initiative and taking actions," or does it mean, "the actual act of fighting"?

---Myca

Personally, I think it makes sense to restrict it to 'the actual act of fighting.' If someone is 'in the initiative order' but not doing much that draws attention to themselves, it doesn't make sense for them to suddenly be that much more likely to be spotted.

I could see the in combat ruling being important in regards to melee specifically. If there is a creature that can see invisibility, and is actively attacking an invisible one, it would make it quite a bit easier for the others to locate the invisible one even if it is still not visible to them.

On the opposite end, if there is an invisible creature who is actively attacking a non-invisible creature (or even one that is, and simply making a lot of noise between the two), that should also make it a lot easier to pinpoint them.

That is obviously my own interpretation of it though, and I can't really back any of that up with RAW. It just seems the most logical to me.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Personally, I think it makes sense to restrict it to 'the actual act of fighting.'

That's basically my opinion as well, with the added argument that if that's not the case, then suddenly there's no specific modifier for 'being in melee combat while invisible,' which seems like kind of an unlikely major oversight.

Other opinions! I'd like to hear them all!

---Myca

Shadow Lodge

I'd interpret "in combat" as "having a perceptible effect on the combat." If you're invisibly buffing yourself and not using that buff yet, you're not having a noticable effect on the combat and you don't get the penalty. If you're applying subtle buffs like Bull's Strength or Good Hope to your allies, that's also pretty subtle and probably won't draw attention to you. Casting Enlarge Person on the fighter, using summoning or conjuration spells, or manipulating visible objects or objects that conspicuously turn invisible would probably apply the penalty since it makes it much easier for someone in combat to realize that there's an invisible caster around. Sure, the other combatants could be activating those effects but they don't seem to be doing anything and item activation usually looks like something.

That said, I actually might separate this out between the "notice presence of invisible creature" task and the "pinpoint invisible creature" task. While silently summoning a monster makes it much easier for someone to notice your presence, it shouldn't make it any easier for them to actually pinpoint your location. So if you're not using stealth, not moving, and silently summoning something it'd be Perception 0 to notice your presence but still Perception 40 to pinpoint your square.

Another option which makes sense to me is to apply a -10 penalty to anyone who is noticeably participating in combat but not in melee, and a -20 penalty to melee. Ranged attacks or visible spell effects are drawing attention to yourself, but they're not quite obvious enough I'd feel an auto-notice is justified.

None of this is RAW but it's how I personally would handle it.


The logic I've heard for "in combat" meaning "acting within initiative order and taking actions" is:

Quote:
And my reasoning is, when you choose to work within Initiative, and also perform actions that interact within 30ft range of potential enemies... it makes sense in my mind that you're having to perform those actions as quickly as possible (within 6 seconds) and moving that fast would create enough of a spectacle to be somewhat visible.

---Myca


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Grick: You don't take a penalty to Stealth for moving at half your normal speed. You take a penalty for moving over half your speed.

Therefore a person with 30-foot movement could move 15 feet as a move action without taking a penalty. They could also double move 30 feet without a penalty. However, if they took a move action to move 16-29 feet, or a double move to move 32-58 feet, then they would suffer a -5 penalty. Using Stealth while charging or running is generally impossible.

Oddly enough, RAW also seems to indicate that you don't take the -5 penalty if you move your full normal speed (30 feet as a move action or 60 feet as a double move action in the above example). That's clearly just poor wording, however, and obviously is not the intent of the rule.


Ravingdork wrote:
Grick: You don't take a penalty to Stealth for moving at half your normal speed. You take a penalty for moving over half your speed.

Are you talking about the "-5 Moving Half Speed" ?

If so, that's a modifier to the Perception DC for a target that is moving at half speed (or less). If you're moving at full speed, the perception modifier is -10.

That has nothing to do with stealth, as you can see those modifiers apply in post #3 as well.

Shadow Lodge

Grick wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Grick: You don't take a penalty to Stealth for moving at half your normal speed. You take a penalty for moving over half your speed.

Are you talking about the "-5 Moving Half Speed" ?

If so, that's a modifier to the Perception DC for a target that is moving at half speed (or less). If you're moving at full speed, the perception modifier is -10.

That has nothing to do with stealth, as you can see those modifiers apply in post #3 as well.

Where did you find those modifiers for perception?


Serum wrote:
Where did you find those modifiers for perception?

Invisibility in the glossary.

Shadow Lodge

Invisibility is weird.

Quote:
If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.

I guess you immediately lose 20 to the DC as soon as you decide to move 5ft. Then you lose 5 if you move 15-25ft, then another 5 if you move 30ft (assuming a single move action as a standard medium humanoid).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry, Grick. I thought it odd that you of all people would miss something like that. I'm glad to have been mistaken.


Grick wrote:
Baron_Yves wrote:
A mage casts Invisibility prior to combat. Combat ensues. Mage is casting Summon Monster from within 30 ft. of enemy. Mage is not moving. Enemy wants to use Perception to pinpoint where mage is.

Before combat:

DC 20 Perception check: notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet

DC 40 Perception check: pinpoint an invisible creature's location (Base 20, +20 invisible)

If the mage is moving at half speed: DC 35 (Base 20, +20 invisible, -5 moving half)
If the mage is moving at full speed: DC 30 (Base 20, +20 invisible, -10 moving full)

Combat ensues:

DC 40+X Perception check: pinpoint an invisible creature's location

Base DC 20, +20 from invisible, -20 due to in combat, +20 due to not moving, +X (+1 per 10 feet away)

I'm taking this primarily from Invisibility in the glossary. The reason I'm breaking out the base 20 from the +20 from being invisible is to fit with the increase in DC listed in the Perception skill.

You don't get the +20 bonus for not moving outside of combat because the table only applies if you're moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

This all gets weird if the mage is using Stealth.

Grick, I'm copying your examples into a quick-reference sheet and I noticed that the "-20 In Combat" adjustment got applied. I am wondering is your take on that modifier that once combat starts, the invisible creature gets the -20 In Combat applied if they are participating in the combat, regardless of actions?

Thanks again for the write up.

-Yves


Baron_Yves wrote:

Grick, I'm copying your examples into a quick-reference sheet and I noticed that the "-20 In Combat" adjustment got applied. I am wondering is your take on that modifier that once combat starts, the invisible creature gets the -20 In Combat applied if they are participating in the combat, regardless of actions?

Thanks again for the write up.

-Yves

Yeah, this question is what's underlying my post here. What constitutes 'in combat' for the purposes of invisibility?

---Myca


Baron_Yves wrote:
I noticed that the "-20 In Combat" adjustment got applied.

My first post had two sections, one out of combat, and one in combat. The second section on stealth was all in combat, though it would be pretty easy to modify it if you're using stealth out of combat.

Baron_Yves wrote:
I am wondering is your take on that modifier that once combat starts, the invisible creature gets the -20 In Combat applied if they are participating in the combat, regardless of actions?

I didn't want to include it in the examples, because it's kind of up to GM discretion.

Personally, I would say someone is in combat if they're participating in any way. If the invisible mage wants to stay out of combat, he's got to dedicate himself to not being involved. He won't be in initiative, and he won't be able to react to what's happening.

So, if the invisible mage is creeping around a dungeon, and some goblins nearby start a fight with some bugbears, and the mage thinks "Holy cow! They're doing all the work for me! I'll just hang out and see who wins." then he can stay out of combat, not be in initiative, and basically hang around until the goblins kill all the bugbears. (Because goblins are cool)

Anything else I would probably have to make up on the fly. If the mages party wanders into the middle of the fight, I would either let the mage join init with them (and be in combat) or if he really wants to stay out of it, he can join in by rolling init at the top of a round and then acting on his init that round (and being flat-footed until that turn). I would try to avoid having the mage be "out of combat" and have the higher DC if he's prepared to act at any moment. Hiding, making perception checks, things like that are fine, but combat spells or any kind of potentially hostile action should put him in init and apply the penalty.

None of that has any real basis in the rules, though.


Grick wrote:
Baron_Yves wrote:
I noticed that the "-20 In Combat" adjustment got applied.

My first post had two sections, one out of combat, and one in combat. The second section on stealth was all in combat, though it would be pretty easy to modify it if you're using stealth out of combat.

Baron_Yves wrote:
I am wondering is your take on that modifier that once combat starts, the invisible creature gets the -20 In Combat applied if they are participating in the combat, regardless of actions?

I didn't want to include it in the examples, because it's kind of up to GM discretion.

Personally, I would say someone is in combat if they're participating in any way. If the invisible mage wants to stay out of combat, he's got to dedicate himself to not being involved. He won't be in initiative, and he won't be able to react to what's happening.

So, if the invisible mage is creeping around a dungeon, and some goblins nearby start a fight with some bugbears, and the mage thinks "Holy cow! They're doing all the work for me! I'll just hang out and see who wins." then he can stay out of combat, not be in initiative, and basically hang around until the goblins kill all the bugbears. (Because goblins are cool)

Anything else I would probably have to make up on the fly. If the mages party wanders into the middle of the fight, I would either let the mage join init with them (and be in combat) or if he really wants to stay out of it, he can join in by rolling init at the top of a round and then acting on his init that round (and being flat-footed until that turn). I would try to avoid having the mage be "out of combat" and have the higher DC if he's prepared to act at any moment. Hiding, making perception checks, things like that are fine, but combat spells or any kind of potentially hostile action should put him in init and apply the penalty.

None of that has any real basis in the rules, though.

It does seem pretty vague in the books for this particular spell. Thank you for explaining your logic on it. It very much helps.

I think I will have to adjudicate based on the individual actions taken after the initiative rather than trying to paint it all with a huge 'in combat' brush, but I guess that's a GMs job, huh?

Wish me luck.

Yves

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

/me casts Resurrection

If a character succeeds on their perception check to locate an invisible assailant (is that a non-action, free action, swift action, move action, or standard?) If they attack the invisible creature, are they still subject to the miss chance?

Scarab Sages

passive check to notice invisible creature (DC20+distance), probably free.

Active check to pinpoint (DC40+distance) is a move action.

even if they pinpoint the square the invisible creature is in, there is still the 50% miss chance to hit it.


Myca wrote:
What constitutes 'in combat' for the purposes of invisibility?

Having an initiative score. Sure, not everyone agrees with that, but it's my interpretation. I'm leaning against some of the very first words of the combat chapter:

Quote:
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

So participation in combat is shown with nothing else than having rolled initiative. I can't really read that any other way.

Also, it makes invisibility easy (no figuring out "did that spell make me participate in combat").

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