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Optimizing an Inoptimal build


Advice

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Ok i have this idea for an Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge build.

The idea is to pump out as many damage causing AOE spells as possible and work off the synergy of the charisma main stat.

So basically Sorcerer 5 oracle 5 and mystic theurge 10.

Ideas i had were Flame mystery and red dragon bloodline. (Maybe efreet or elemental)

Maybe a half orc for the bonus fire damage favored class bonus for Sorc.

Anyone have any other ideas?

No non piazo third party stuff please.


If it's all about Burst, Burst, Burst, then more damage = better. Simultaneously, you should work on a damage that creatures will most likely have little to no resistance to, which Fire is the most common element in the game, meaning even if you deal more damage, that will only help in negating the resistance every creature by the end-game would have. Should you be able to apply extra damage to another element, which creatures are less likely to have resistance to, I would go with that instead.

Honestly? I'd think about going Human for the fact you can obtain extra spells for the Favored Class.

Another idea is to go Half-Elf and have 2 Favored Classes (one for Sorcerer, and one for Oracle, since you can't apply Favored Class bonuses to Prestige Classes).


A Wiz/Clr/MT is already pretty awful. This seems like sort of a personal challenge thing, to see if you somehow can make the most out of the least powerful build conceivable.

So, I guess ya stumped me. I guess the only idea I have is: Stay in cover, and be creative to make the best out of weak spells.


All I can say is grab dazing spell. :)


wraithstrike wrote:
All I can say is grab dazing spell. :)

THIS!


A wiz cleric MT has to use two stats (Int/Wis). a Sorc oracle needs only charisma.


They also get their spells later, dropping spell progression is not a good thing. One of the pathfinder books, not the hardcovers, has a way to get past that, but it is RP based. I can't recall exactly how it works though.

Lantern Lodge

Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 4/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Arcane Archer 3. Character would be able to cast 7th level divine spells and 8th level arcane spells as well as be able to cannibalize either the sorcerer spells for more cleric spells or the other way around. The AA bit is to make him / her slightly better with a bow and allow her to use the bows range for offensive AoE spells. The BAB though will be only 12 though at 20 so that is good or bad depending how u look at it. This build will allow the character to be doing some thing every round.

Also the reson why wizard is such a bad choice for MT builds is because unlike sorcerer it does ot get bonus spells for leveling in it and the amount of spells able to cast as a wizard are 1/2 that of a sorcer of equal level.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Five levels behind on caster levels AND spell progression is going to be a big hit. Alleviating that is going to eat up a lot of your feats.

You're going to have to buff your caster level, Practiced Spellcaster would be great if allowed. ON top of that, acquiring metamagic feats you can pump with Theurge synergy is going to require yet more slots.

Suboptimal is right. Good luck!

==Aelryinth


I'd say pick a single low level spell and really optimize it, using the rest of your spells for utility. It'll be a one trick wonder, but tough to do better so many caster levels behind.

Magic Lineage, Intensify Spell, Elemental Spell, Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo and/or Bloat Mage Initiate, all leading up to Spell Perfection, Dazing Spell, and Quicken Spell.

Scorching Ray is a favorite for its no save and lowish level, but the damage dice cap early and the damage is fire.

Fireball is another favorite for the earliest good area damage and better dice cap, but even a later entry and still fire.

I've been considering Burning Hands, some area and lowest level are good, but damage type is still awful and also has the 10d cap even with Intensify.

If your GM is always stretching out your combats anyways, could be fun going Acid Arrow if you can pick that up for Oracle somehow. The caster level boosts would be secondary to the Dazing and Quicken, might even make the Wayang+Lineage traits together worth it. Master DoTter.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Spell Specialization allows you to changet he spell at later levels, so you can move from, say, a Burning Hands to a Scorching Ray to a fireball toa Firesnake.

It's just going to mature fairly late. You'll definitely need empower, too.

==Aelryinth


Dotting for when I have a bit more time.


an empyreal sorc uses wis, arcane sorc uses int. if you're worried about MAD, an empyreal sorcerer/cleric would use only wis and still meet MT reqs at level 7

usually i refer to opimizing unoptimized builds less as optimization and more as just increasing it's efficiency.


Idea is to avoid MAD And pump out the maxamum number of damaging spells as possible.


Taking elemental focus is also a good idea as well as spell focus. Spell Perfection, and Intensified Spell might also work. There is also a trait that reduces the cost of a metamagic feat for a particular spell.

Being a blaster with a mystic theurge while using casters that advance slower than the cleric and wizard is not efficient at all.

What is your idea other than blasting spells?


Going Mystic Theurge is an awful idea if your primary goal is to cause damage. Your caster level is going to be -4 on both sides of things. You're not going to get Fireball until at the very earliest level 10, and then it's only going to do 6d6 of damage. Awful concept.

My best suggestion is to take the Heavens Mystery. The revelation "Awesome Display" is enough to help you survive through those awful early levels using Color Spray as a solid offensive spell. Maximize your Charisma and you could overpower pretty much any boss that isn't immune to mind affecting effects or has spell resistance.

Eventually, you'll be able to take "Loathsome Veil" as your first Sorcerer level 3 spell known, which is basically color spray part II. You'll nauseate most creatures instantly and forever.

Sorcerers and Oracles make terrible options for Prestige Classes. They technically shouldn't get their bloodline or mystery spells, while Clerics do get their domain spells and wizards gain their specialty school spells.


IF your GM uses the guild rules with eclectic training and esoteric training from inner sea magic... you could go Oracle 5 / Sorcerer 5 with your +3 class going Oracle and your +1 class going Sorcerer giving you 9th level Oracle spells / 8th lvl Sorcerer spells at 20...or vice versa. Cleric 6 / Wizard 4 would give you double 9s in both.

I've got a lvl 3 Cleric that I'm seriously considering going into MT with, just to get the practical knowledge of it's ins and outs to write an effective guide. But yeah, Sorcerer / Oracle MT takes an already difficult build and makes it even harder. And if your GM won't allow guild rules, it's a full blown exercise in futility.

P.S.: Don't forget to focus on spells without a somatic component so that you aren't failing 30% of the time:

Wicked K Games wrote:
Go here and set the somatic line to 0. This will give you a list of the 78 no-somatic spells... Cheers!


The concept sounds fun unfortunately mechanically it requires major system mastery.

Personally I say give it a shot! No guts, No glory. OK. I will post some actual advice once I get some more sleep under my belt.


Since you're looking at avoiding MAD, you could still do Cleric/Sorc/MT, just take the Empyreal version of the celestial bloodline. Use your sorcerer levels to go nuts on your blasty spells, and use the cleric list to be your utility.

Sczarni

Go blasty Sorcerer, and then just get craft wonderous item feat, and make some robes to double every level of spells lol.

Sczarni

sorry ring of wizardry... stack 1-4 on there.


There are quite a few options for this build to pull its own weight. Will it be optimized? No... Will it work? Yes. Will it be fun to play? Highly Probable.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

He's just going to feel like a fifth wheel from levels 5-8, when everyone else is levelling and he's just got his level 1 and 2 spells to throw around at half the caster level. And then he's going to feel like a sixth wheel being stuck way behind in both new spells and caster level.

Unless the rest of the party is similarly underpowered, this is going to be a struggle. If he could start at 10+ with guild training and get through the sheer hell that is going to be the midlevels, might do all right.

==Aelryinth


i not one to think that having a spell pool deep as the ocean is a bad thing. you may not get higher level spells as fast as a wizard, but having selective fireballs every round is worth it for me. then as you get higher in levels with spell perfection and interchangeable unprepared slots, you will be a wrecking ball of sport and control.

my suggestions would be use your oracle slots for buffing, and your sorcerer slots for controling things. im of the opinion that damage spells have there use, but god spells make or break encounters.

i would suggest mithril brest plate and arcane armor training, and skip out on quicken spell until deep in your build.

Aelryinth wrote:

He's just going to feel like a fifth wheel from levels 5-8, when everyone else is levelling and he's just got his level 1 and 2 spells to throw around at half the caster level. And then he's going to feel like a sixth wheel being stuck way behind in both new spells and caster level.

Unless the rest of the party is similarly underpowered, this is going to be a struggle. If he could start at 10+ with guild training and get through the sheer hell that is going to be the midlevels, might do all right.

==Aelryinth

mmm... it would depend on his build.

what i mean is if he chose to go sorcerer before oricle, then he would have access to pit spells, as well as blindness deffness. so 5-8 should be very managible assuming he chooses the correct spell list for his character.

if he chooses to play a hevens oracle and goes oracle to 5 then sorcerer to 10 then he would also be a wrecking ball due to spamming a first level spell (color spray) and owning everything it touches. i mean color spray alone will let him stay functional until level 12 assuming he stacks the snot out of his CHA.

if i were making this character i would have a sorcerer with the undead bloodline, and heavens oracle for impressive synergy and making my spell list have fewer flaws, i would take the blackened curse for aoe spells on my oricle list for free, and focus on illusion, necromancy, and enchantment spells and save dc's.


He can Also pick up wands and scrolls to use in emergencies.

Silken Ceremonial Armor and a Mithril Buckler(maybe even a Light Shield) can be used as armor with no penalties.

As mentioned Sorcerer for combat/control with Oracle for Buff and Healing. Picking the Elemental bloodline is a good way to get a majority of good blasting spells IIRC. Not sure on the Mysteries though. Been a while since I even looked at the Oracle...


How is it a heaven oracle does damage with color spray?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

If you are serious about this, I would try the Aasimar variant which gives a +1 per die to fire spells. The problem with MT is that it delays getting higher level spells. (And sorcerer/oracle exagerates this). At 8th level, you can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells. You won't get third level spells until 10th level when a straight sorcerer or oracle would have 5th level spells.


It can't as far as I know. Though I do know it is easier to get your illusions to effect the targets.


clff rice wrote:
A wiz cleric MT has to use two stats (Int/Wis). a Sorc oracle needs only charisma.

And usually makes up for it by being one level behind in max spell level.

I would strongly recommend that a player only attempt a build like this if they are already starting out around level 15+ and are guaranteed to be entering epic levels eventually. And even then, such a class combo wouldn't be worth it unless you were restricted to only 20 levels in any given Core/Base class (a common enough rule for Epic-level games, I imagine).

Mystic Theurge was breath-takingly awful in 3rd edition, and Paizo didn't make it any more attractive. Consider: the Witch class, in just about every detail, is a Cleric/Wizard/MT using just Int as a casting stat. If you want to heal and nuke, there's better ways to do it. Mystic Theurge is a noob trap. Seriously. I know it sounds cool, and we all wish it would work, but RAW, it just sucks. It. just. sucks.

Spoiler:
Now, if the entry requirements for the class were, for example, only Spell Level 1 in any two divine / arcane classes, possibly restricting it to prepared-spell casters only, I could see it being an important tool for low-head-count parties.

I would personally be more comfortable restricting the class to Clr/Wiz because I feel that the MAD offsets the expanded spell list in the perfect way: versatility at the expense of specialized power. Remember that your spell DCs are set by your ability score, and not your caster level (which is still taking a hit because you have to be at least one level behind in both classes). Furthermore, remember that the MT prestige has only 10 levels, which means that, sooner or later, you will still have to decide which of your two base casting classes to prefer -- and the Preferred Class bonus also ensures this will be the case.

There is simply NO good reason to require Spell Level 2 to enter the MT, especially not with Samsarans and Sorcerer Bloodlines being what they are. The fact of the matter is that Wizards and especially Clerics in Pathfinder just need that je ne sais quoi. Their school and domain powers just fall flat in the face of Bloodlines and Mysteries which provide strong flavor and a plethora of special bonuses. The Wizard class is defined by being bland, if theoretically versatile. In actual play, though, the Sorcerer wins. Scrolls and Staffs are amazing, and there is no reason to put up with prepared casting if you don't have to, and there just are not that many "must-have" spells in the first place. A sorcerer is capable of doing anything a Wizard can do, and is, in fact, more versatile in a fight. Ditto Oracles. With Human (and other races) favored class granting a new spell known per level, the Cleric's Wizard's power and attractiveness is vastly eroded. Their only real draw is, in fact, their lack of class features making multiclassing possible... Which is just insulting. Even Fighters got more feats over their careers on top of entirely new and unique class mechanics.

The School and Domain powers amount to nothing but parlor tricks and usually wastes of your action, at that.

Anyone wants to play an MT in one of my campaigns will get my whole-hearted support.


@Aunt_Tony: The MT requires a long term build plan. If you are winging it you are gonna be a inclined plane wrapped helixly around an axis


Might be a tough road but i think its worth it in the long run.


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clff rice wrote:

How is it a heaven oracle does damage with color spray?

they wouldnt deal damage, and i know the op was talking about making an evoker, but it would add an insane ammount of control due to color spray functoning effectively until 12th level or so. then all of the sorcerer illusion (glamer) spells at its disposal in later levels.

@aunt tony

while you are entitled to your opinion that doesnt mean its correct. mystic thurges are kings of buffing and control. they lose out on quite a bit, but they gain a multiple role position. that he could be a very effective healer/buffer/debuffer/conjurer and play a pure support role. ive played a MT in a home game with a very evil GM. he took pride in killing players, and mine never died once. i had too many tricks to overcome every thing the gm threw at him. i was able to keep people fighting, and was the most "powerful" character in the group, he was a linch pin of the group.

if you play this smart, dont focus on damage, and play a support role this character will perform very well. it will suck if you try to lob nothing but fireballs.


@Orc_Boyz: Thank you for summing up my feelings on this.

Personally, my MTs have always been Wiz/Cleric just for versatility, but i can see a Sorc/oracle being the Bomb. So to speak...

My sorcerers tend to go Arcane Archer or become Arcane Tricksters. And well I never have really played Oracles to their fullest extent...


I like cleric sor with the empyrean bloodline


That wouldn't be to bad given their focuses.


New to PF but ran a 3.5 Clr/Sor/Mystic Theurge for a long time in a home campaign and yes you'll arrive at higher level spells late(r), but you will have a lot of spells/slots to use each day. You won't run dry as fast and this is particularly true at earlier levels compared to the other spell casters in a party.

Mine also ran with Eschew (now free!!), Still and Silent (and several more with +1/+2 lvl adj) while focusing a great deal of her spell choices on buff spells plus spells with no save, and or no SR, which minimized the level factor and were easily metamagicked with a single +1 or +2 adjustment.


If you want maximum blastnig have you considered sage sorcerer/druid? Druids get way better blasting spells than a cleric/oracle.

Qadira

I guess one of the points of the proposed build is that you could blast away each and every round of combat for entire adventures and still not run out of spells before the group rests. If you're into blasting spells anyway then actually hitting the higher spell levels is less important than it is for other casters - damage is damage is damage, after all; higher spell levels just tend to give you bigger blast zones, longer range, and a higher dice cap before you start applying intensified spell.

With elemental type blasting you can eventually apply Elemental Focus, Greater Elemental Focus, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus and the Affinity of the Elements trait (Faiths of Corruption page 19) to add a whopping +5 to the save DCs of your blasting spells, on top of your (one assumes) maxed-out Charisma modifier. That helps mitigate the fact your actual spell levels are lagging behind, at least a little.

You could always drag one of your two caster levels up by two by taking the Magical Knack trait, but you may be better off taking Magical Lineage applied to one of your low level blasting spells so that you can intensify it with no increase in spell level (or maybe Elemental Spell it when faced with an otherwise immune creature).

Wand-wise you could use a vast majority of all spells without needing UMD... so that's nice... :)

The Burning Magic Oracle of Flame Revelation looks tailor made for this type of character - and the Reflex save to put the flames out is based on the spell's DC (which should be whopping with the above Feats and Trait applied...). The extra damage isn't a lot, but even 'ping' damage can be helpful in the right circumstances.

If you go fire elemental bloodline / flame oracle mystery then you should think about making the character's race gnome and taking the 'pyromaniac' alternate racial trait, as it applies to both of those (and gives you an extra Produce Flame a day, in case you're running low on blasty-ness...). Small-size characters generally make (marginally) better blasters anyway.

All in all, I think it's a fine character concept!


The advantage to being a MT is two things:

1. Once you get 5 or so levels of MT, you have more spells/day then any other spell caster in the game. They're weaker spells, though.

2. You have unbelivable versitility.

You're actually giving up a lot of #2 by going oracle/sorc instead of cleric/wizard, but you're gaining flexibility, and if you pick the right spells you're going to have a *lot* of flexibility, more then any other 10-15th level character.

If you're going to be effective, your best bet is to take advantage of those two things, and basically just do something cool every round. Not just during combat, either; once you get up to level, you're going to have a *lot* of spells, so feel free to buff people randomally, summon monsters just to scout ahead, use divinitation spells, cast illusions, bless people, heal between battles, and just basically look cool.

Get the blasty spells, be ready and able to blast hardcore whenever you feel like it. But get other kinds of spells too. You won't blast as well as a full sorcerer, you just won't, but you've got more options, so be ready to use them. If you're creative with when and how you use your spells (and whatever other abilities you have), you'll be useful to the party in any situation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you wanted to go an opposite route and go cold based, you might consider the waves mystery and the elemental (water) bloodline. With the elemental (water) bloodline, you can make any elemental damaging spell into a cold spell, and the waves mystery has an revelation called Freezing Spell that slows creatures that fail their saves vs. your spells and take cold damage from them.

Later on, you could get the Rime Spell metamagic feat and use those other strategies to make casting a spell (say, Fireball or some such) doable with the metamagic feat without changing the spells level. So then you can get cast a damaging cold spell that both slows and entangles creatures at the same time.

The Water Sight revelation might also make for some good synergy with all the fog type spells arcane casters have access to.


Now were getting into some quazi optimization :D


Hmm...

You might look for an element that very few enemies are immune to. like Acid or Electricity. If you are focusing on fire for a theme. You want to look at ways to switch the Element. Maybe look into "Researching" a series of spells that are of varying elements.

Heck I had a series of spells based on Final Fantasy spells.


I would say sonic is the least common elemental resistance.


Go Sor6/Ora/4/MT10, not Sor5/Ora5/MT10. Not only do you get access to 8th level spells but you end up with more total spell slots per day (a whopping 124 at CL20). Also this is really not something you want to do if you have to start at CL1. I did the math and until you get to CL10 and take your 2nd level of Mystic Thurge you're actually even or behind in total spell slots at every level except CL5 in comparison to a straight oracle or sorcerer.


I figured up if you go a certain route it comes out perfectly.


Xexyz wrote:
Go Sor6/Ora/4/MT10, not Sor5/Ora5/MT10. Not only do you get access to 8th level spells but you end up with more total spell slots per day (a whopping 124 at CL20). Also this is really not something you want to do if you have to start at CL1. I did the math and until you get to CL10 and take your 2nd level of Mystic Thurge you're actually even or behind in total spell slots at every level except CL5 in comparison to a straight oracle or sorcerer.

Ohh good idea, that way i still get lv 7 cleric spells and get slightly more blastyness out of it.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I figured up if you go a certain route it comes out perfectly.

Ohh what did you find?


I forgot to save the file last night...

I remember it involved going Sor4/Ora4/MT10 then the last 2 can be dispersed based on party needs.

Sorcerer provides Combat spells. Blasting & Control focused.
Oracle provides Squad Support spells. Buff/Debuff & Healing focused.

NOTE: I only was able to take it to level 15.


Ok so far sor 6/Ora 4 MT 10

Half orc for their bonus fire damage favored class ability and also the fact i can just give them a +2 cha.

Red dragon bloodline for extra damage per dice to offset lower CL.

Flame Mystery Oracle to get burning magic.

The second mystery will be touch of flame. Unless im mistaken the wording states "At 11th level, any weapon that you wield is treated as a flaming weapon." Not it states at 11th level, Not at 11th Oracle level.

Now one question i thought up is. Does Any of the Shared spell slots count as "Sorcarer spells" FOr the purposes of the half orc favored class bonus? Mystic theurge is supposed to be a blending of both Arcane and Divine.


All of the mysteries refer to Oracles levels.

As an example:

Quote:
Mental Acuity (Ex): Your explorations into the secret mysteries of the world have granted you a preternatural understanding of all things—and you just keep getting smarter. You gain a +1 inherent bonus to Intelligence upon taking this revelation and another at every third oracle level gained thereafter. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.

As a rule of thumb when reading a class description it is referring to class levels when you have options to select from.

When the class ability refers to character levels that will be called out. As an example:

Quote:
An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle.


Half-Elf would be good for having both Sorcerer and Oracle as Favored Classes.

Hmm, he @11th level means Oracle 11.

Shared Spell slots are MT slots not Sorcerer Slots.

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