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For the purpose of making trip attacks, can you effectively add your dex twice to your CMB with both fury's fall and agile maneuvers?
For reference:
Fury's Fall (Combat)
You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
Agile Maneuvers (Combat)
You've learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus.
prototype00
yes.
I would say yes
I've seen a similar discussion another time - not sure what the subject was.
Here it was argued that the same ability score couldn't apply twice, since it the same type of bonus.
Thus it might be argued that both apply a dex bonus to trip CMB which doesn't stack.
However, not being a regular bonus type, I am not sure, whether I agree. So basically, I am just pointing out that there exist a counter argument.
My argument: The feat Fury Fall is obviously meant to allow two ability score bonuses to apply, Strength and Dex.
If you would now not allow Dex twice is basicly means that taking Agile Maneuvers in addition to that actually does not only do nothing, it penalises you. And that just doesn't seem right.
I don't think Dexterity bonus is a type of bonus like circumstance or morale bonus. It's an untyped bonus that adds your Dexterity score.
Argument for that: Dexterity and Strength are written with capital letters, all the other bonuses never are (unless they're at the start of a sentence obviously)
I know those aren't much to go on, but unless a Dev tells me otherwise (FAQing this btw), I'll keep believing that
According to James Jacobs such abilities don't stack. They just replace Strength. I don't agree with that due to how the RAW is written, but James is good with the the rules so it could be that the abilities need to be rewritten(errata'd). I would FAQ it.
PS:My opinion on this is based on Fury's Fall adding dex to the CMB result, while agile maneuvers replaces dex.
Here it was argued that the same ability score couldn't apply twice, since it the same type of bonus.
How did they explain the Mindchemist?
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They both would work, you'd get dex twice.
But trip is always made with a weapon (including unarmed), so you could just take Weapon Finesse and skip Agile Maneuvers entirely.
According to James Jacobs such abilities don't stack. They just replace Strength. I don't agree with that due to how the RAW is written, but James is good with the the rules so it could be that the abilities need to be rewritten(errata'd). I would FAQ it.
PS:My opinion on this is based on Fury's Fall adding dex to the CMB result, while agile maneuvers replaces dex.
Would you happen to know where he said this? I'm not questioning it, I just wanted to see how he explained it.
prototype00
2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects.
Click the link for the full post.
2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects.Click the link for the full post.
Ugh. What he wrote doesn't match the RAW of the feat at all.
prototype00
2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects.Click the link for the full post.
Ugh. What he wrote doesn't match the RAW of the feat at all.
prototype00
I know. That is why I wrote my other post the way I did.
I guess Mindchemist is a worthless archetype. After all, it's not like your intelligence magically doubles.
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I also don't agree with JJ's mentality that if a ruling gives players more power/leeway, he is prone to steer away from it. Furthermore, CR equivalent monsters have much higher CMD's than they do AC's, so characters that are designed to target a CMD are already at a disadvantage. In addition, a trip-build can't trip any NPC who is flying. A disarm build cannot disarm any NPC who is not using a held weapon or item. A sunder build cannot break the gear (as there is no gear to break) when it comes to all elementals, all animals, most undead, and many constructs. Combat maneuver characters can shine in alot of moments, until you further limit their CMB by saying "You can't use Fury's Fall and Agile Manuevers together", so your average trip-build character is once again at about a 30-40% success rate with CMB's against the majority of monsters (since the majority of NPCs/monsters in published adventures are melee/ranged combat types rather than divine/arcane caster types).
I tend to look at limited resource options (especially feats) as also carrying an opportunity cost for players. The player who takes both Agile Manuevers and Fury's Fall is improving his ability to trip really well at the cost of:
Fewer hitpoints (he's not taking Toughness with this feat)
Being a threat at range (he's not taking PB Shot or Precise Shot with this)
Improving a saving throw (no Iron Will here)
Improving his ability to actually attack or do damage (No Weapon Focus or Power Attack)
etc.
EDIT: obviously for PFS play you have to do what the devs say, but for home games, I'd avoid restricting feat benefits as a GM. Nor would I want a GM i'm playing under to restrict my feat choices....
No, for PFS even, you don't have to do what JJ says. Because he doesn't make the rules. Thankfully.
Nice guy, pleasant to read what he writes. But I hope he forever stays out of making actual rules...
Bump for more FAQ, building a dex Loremaster for PFS, would be nice to know this for real.
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This isn't the only case where it would be nice to know if you can add the same ability modifier multiple times (outside of cases like Mindchemist that explicitly allow you to do so). A Paladin with a one-level dip in Lore Oracle to use Cha instead of Dex for Reflex saves and AC would be cool, but it would be less cool if its two instances of Cha to Reflex saves didn't stack.
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They both would work, you'd get dex twice.
But trip is always made with a weapon (including unarmed), so you could just take Weapon Finesse and skip Agile Maneuvers entirely.
Agile Maneuvers works with all weapons, whether or not they are able to work with Weapon Finesse.
I have a Dex-based Fighter who uses a fauchard (which is not Finesseable) to trip with, and AM lets him still use his Dex mod instead of his Str mod for trips with it.
Sorry for casting Rise Dead guys, but I really would like to know the answer for this: is there a faq for it already? or this still doesnt have an official answer?
Both are untyped bonuses, and therefore, they stack.
I'm pretty sure that the reason that they've marked it as "No response required" is that they view it as using the same variable twice in the equation. Str + Dex + whatever else = cool groovy deal. Dex + Dex + whatever = wrongbadfun in their eyes.
In all my looking at the Dev responses on the forums, I haven't seen them rule one way or the other, actually. It could quite possibly also be that they regard the RAW as being quite obvious (untyped bonus stack) and are wondering why we are asking this question.
In any event, I'm quite flummoxed as to why it was marked no response required when they actually haven't chimed in and said anything yet.
prototype00
Both are untyped bonuses, and therefore, they stack.
Actually no.
CMB is calculated thusly,
BAB+Str Bonus
With Agile Maneuvers you get,
BAB+Dex Bonus
You are already adding your Dex Bonus to the check.
With Fury's Fall you get,
BAB+Dex Bonus+Dex Bonus which isn't an allowed combination.
Dexterity Bonuses do NOT stack with each other.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, modifiers of the same type never stack with each other. That is the general rule stated in the book.
What is the bonus Type of a Dex modifier? Is it a dodge bonus? A sacred bonus? A competence bonus? A deflection or armor/shield bonus? Or any of the other named bonuses? If not, by default it is un-typed.
Or do you have "general rules" that back that up as well? (Not saying that you don't, but I've never seen one personally.)
prototype00
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Being based on your DEX doesn't make it a DEX bonus. It doesn't say you add your DEX bonus to your trip; it says you gain a bonus equal to your DEX bonus to trip.
They are separate bonuses. They are not the same type, one is a CMB bonus (or maybe an attack bonus, I'm not sure), the other is an untyped bonus.
No it does not. Neither of them say you gain a bonus equal to your Dex bonus to trip unless the feat was reprinted somewhere?
Fury's Fall:
"Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB."
Agile Maneuvers:
"Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus."
Both add your dexterity bonus. They are written to be the exact same bonus. Dexterity Bonus. Unless otherwise stated the general rule for exact same bonuses don't stack.
Being based on your DEX doesn't make it a DEX bonus. It doesn't say you add your DEX bonus to your trip; it says you gain a bonus equal to your DEX bonus to trip.
They are separate bonuses. They are not the same type, one is a CMB bonus (or maybe an attack bonus, I'm not sure), the other is an untyped bonus.
No it does not. Neither of them say you gain a bonus equal to your Dex bonus to trip unless the feat was reprinted somewhere?
Fury's Fall:
"Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB."Agile Maneuvers:
"Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus."Both add your dexterity bonus. They are written to be the exact same bonus. Dexterity Bonus. Unless otherwise stated the general rule for exact same bonuses don't stack.
Except for the fact that weapon finesse states Dex Modifier:
"Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."So, technicaly, you can combine weapon finesse and fury's fall on your trip maneuvers, as dex modifier is an untyped bonus.
Being based on your DEX doesn't make it a DEX bonus. It doesn't say you add your DEX bonus to your trip; it says you gain a bonus equal to your DEX bonus to trip.
They are separate bonuses. They are not the same type, one is a CMB bonus (or maybe an attack bonus, I'm not sure), the other is an untyped bonus.
No it does not. Neither of them say you gain a bonus equal to your Dex bonus to trip unless the feat was reprinted somewhere?
Fury's Fall:
"Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB."Agile Maneuvers:
"Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus."Both add your dexterity bonus. They are written to be the exact same bonus. Dexterity Bonus. Unless otherwise stated the general rule for exact same bonuses don't stack.
Except for the fact that weapon finesse states Dex Modifier:
"Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."So, technicaly, you can combine weapon finesse and fury's fall on your trip maneuvers, as dex modifier is an untyped bonus.
Nice try.
Determine Bonuses
"Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster."
So technically, absolutely not. A positive dex modifier is a Dexterity Bonus
I don't understand where everyone's idea of double stacking, or having the same variable twice in an equation, is against the rules. So long as it stacks, it's good.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.
Right after that part they actually list all the types of bonuses, and there's none that read "stat" or "ability" or "dexterity".
Actually no they don't. After that is an example of play after listing other common terms none of which contain the specific types of bonuses. Other bonus types don't get mentioned for a long time.
How can you say a Dexterity Bonus is not a bonus type? It is literally formatted like every other bonus. "looks like a duck..."
I'll restate what the book says.
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.
Actually, it is formatted differently
A typical bonus is formatted such:
-You get [value] [type] bonus to [target]
-You get [+4] [morale] bonus to [Strength]
An untyped bonus leaves [type] out
-You get [+2] bonus to [Will saves]
Let's see one adding CHA to dodge (osyluth guile)
Add your Charisma bonus[value] to your AC[target] as a dodge bonus[type]
Fury's fall
-You add your [Dexterity] bonus to [your CMB]
So by going by ANY of the above syntaxes, dexterity is either the type of the bonus or the value, but not both.
By the developers intent as stated by JJ it is actually both LoneKnave.
A Paladin's Divine Grace is an untyped bonus decided by his Charisma bonus.
You get a Charisma bonus to diplomacy checks.
I don't see why you say it can't be both. The rules themselves support the logic behind it as well as the Devs.
Actually, it is formatted differently
A typical bonus is formatted such:
-You get [value] [type] bonus to [target]
-You get [+4] [morale] bonus to [Strength]
An untyped bonus leaves [type] out
-You get [+2] bonus to [Will saves]
Let's see one adding CHA to dodge (osyluth guile)
Add your Charisma bonus[value] to your AC[target] as a dodge bonus[type]
Fury's fall
-You add your [Dexterity] bonus to [your CMB]
So by going by ANY of the above syntaxes, dexterity is either the type of the bonus or the value, but not both.
By the developers intent as stated by JJ it is actually both LoneKnave.
A Paladin's Divine Grace is an untyped bonus decided by his Charisma bonus.
You get a Charisma bonus to diplomacy checks.
I don't see why you say it can't be both. The rules themselves support the logic behind it as well as the Devs.
We must remember, thought, that JJ himself has said he isnt the rules guy, he normally says how he rules it, even if its a house rule. To get a clear understanding over the matter and possibly end this argument we would need maybe sean k. to answer this.
That said, I agree with LoneKnave interpretation, it makes the most sense to me.
So you two are saying that a Strength Bonus to damage is an untyped bonus when we have a stated definition of a Bonus in the common terms part of the game.
Loneknave even went and put it in a format for us. I don't see why you guys decide to exclude examples and demand that it must function in one way when it clearly can do both.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
JJ has stated developer intent which when people tried to call him out on it, the FAQ team put No Response needed.
We have precedent. I've shown you how it works RAW using the Rulebook. I haven't made any jumps in logic. Untyped bonuses completely lack any possible construing of a type.
Without a doubt you are already adding a Dexterity Bonus to your CMB with Agile Maneuvers. You seek to add your Dexterity Bonus again with Fury's Fall.
As a general rule, Bonuses of the same kind do not stack.
Agile Maneuvers changes how you determine your CMB.
Fury's fall adds a bonus to your CMB when you trip.
They both function. At no time do you add your dex twice to your CMB. It is in your CMB once from agile maneuvers. Your CMB is determined by dex instead of str. Then you add a bonus to your CMB when you trip.
There is never an issue here with it stacking with itself. Because once is a calculation based on dex, and once is a bonus to that final figure.
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So... according to Scavion it is a typed bonus. Which does make sense (Take the character sheet, for armor and CMD there's a space for Dexterity Bonus, I guess thats close enough to an idea of a type).
But Scavion, to be fair, part of your argument doesn't seem to be connected. You claim bonuses are defined as thus. Nobody disagrees there, and nobody disagrees that bonuses of the same type do not stack. They do, however, challenge that attribute bonuses are typed bonuses.
LoneKnave probably referenced this table, but it in the context of spells. A spell is never going to give you a dexterity bonus to hit, for example.
Agile Maneuvers changes how you determine your CMB.
Fury's fall adds a bonus to your CMB when you trip.They both function. At no time do you add your dex twice to your CMB. It is in your CMB once from agile maneuvers. Your CMB is determined by dex instead of str. Then you add a bonus to your CMB when you trip.
There is never an issue here with it stacking with itself. Because once is a calculation based on dex, and once is a bonus to that final figure.
Reread the feats. A modifier that is positive is a Bonus.
We have a 16 Dexterity. That means we have a +3 Modifier. A modifier that is positive is a Bonus.
With Agile Maneuvers I get to add my Dexterity Bonus instead of my Strength Bonus when I calculate my CMB.
With Fury's Fall, I get to add my Dexterity Bonus to my trip attempts which I am already adding with Agile Maneuvers.
Again. CMB is BAB+Dex Bonus with Agile Maneuvers.
With Fury's Fall, it would be BAB+Dex+Dex which doesn't work because you are adding two like bonus types.
However I can see where your building your argument.
I believe you are saying that we total our CMB then add our Dex Bonus to it. Just because you put the components together already doesn't mean you can bring the same component in and expect it to do even better. We don't add portions of our attack bonus, then add more. Mechanically we add them all at once.
James Jacob put it rather eloquently stating that you are already being measured by your dexterity mod in the maneuver. It makes no sense to double the extent of your physical abilities via a feat.
Going how you put it Remy, if I had a 30 Dex +10 Mod, using these feats would essentially count me as if I had a 50 Dex.
Agile Maneuvers changes how you determine your CMB.
Fury's fall adds a bonus to your CMB when you trip.They both function. At no time do you add your dex twice to your CMB. It is in your CMB once from agile maneuvers. Your CMB is determined by dex instead of str. Then you add a bonus to your CMB when you trip.
There is never an issue here with it stacking with itself. Because once is a calculation based on dex, and once is a bonus to that final figure.
Reread the feats. A modifier that is positive is a Bonus.
We have a 16 Dexterity. That means we have a +3 Modifier. A modifier that is positive is a Bonus.
With Agile Maneuvers I get to add my Dexterity Bonus instead of my Strength Bonus when I calculate my CMB.
With Fury's Fall, I get to add my Dexterity Bonus to my trip attempts which I am already adding with Agile Maneuvers.
Again. CMB is BAB+Dex Bonus with Agile Maneuvers.
With Fury's Fall, it would be BAB+Dex+Dex which doesn't work because you are adding two like bonus types.
However I can see where your building your argument.
I believe you are saying that we total our CMB then add our Dex Bonus to it. Just because you put the components together already doesn't mean you can bring the same component in and expect it to do even better. We don't add portions of our attack bonus, then add more. Mechanically we add them all at once.
James Jacob put it rather eloquently stating that you are already being measured by your dexterity mod in the maneuver. It makes no sense to double the extent of your physical abilities via a feat.
Going how you put it Remy, if I had a 30 Dex +10 Mod, using these feats would essentially count me as if I had a 50 Dex.
How many times do you add your Con bonus to your HP? The answer? Zero. You add 'hp gained' to your previous 'HP total' when you level. You add your con modifier to your 'HP gained' each level. You never add a Con 'bonus', you add your 'modifier' to the 'HP gained'. Thus, the HP itself has multiples of your con modifier embedded in it. But that doesn't mean you ever had a stacking con bonus. Because they never got added together, not at any point.
The same is true for Agile Maneuver and Fury's Fall. The CMB is now determined with your dex modifier. Once determined, that 'is your CMB'. When you trip, you get a bonus to your trip attempt.
There is no conflict here with stacking bonuses.
BAB+Dex= CMB
d20+CMB+Dex+misc= Trip roll
Dex is never added twice in any calculation here. If you are adding dex twice it is because you are simplifying two distinct and separate equations into one equation for efficiency. But that doesn't mean they are 'actually' one equation.
BAB+DEX 'IS' your CMB with agile maneuver. CMB+DEX is added on trips with Fury's Fall. Two equations. dex x2 never happens.
A positive modifier is a Bonus.
Yes, you never add your Con Bonus to HP. You do however add your Con Bonus to your Hit Dice when determining the HP gained per level. No conflict here.
If you have already determined your CMB, you add nothing more to it.
Determined-having made a firm decision and being resolved not to change it.
First definition that comes up.
Lets try a modeling a trip attempt.
First you declare you are making a trip attempt. Oh. Huh. Look at that. Before we even get to your part we're already adding the Dex Bonus from Fury's Fall.
Ok.
STR 12
DEX 18
Level 6 fighter with Agile Maneuver, Improved Trip, and Fury's Fall.
His CMB is determined by BAB + Dex modifier.
His CMB is 10 (6bab+4dex)
When he makes a trip attempt, he adds his dex bonus to his CMB. This is 14 (10cmb+4dex). He rolls a d20 and adds his modified cmb of 14 and adds 2 from imp trip and whatever other misc modifiers to determine his result.
Dex is never added to the same equation ever. His CMB is a determined number that is added to in the situation of making a trip attempt. You do not simplify all equations into one grand equation. They are each thier own. And dex is never added to dex. It just doesn't happen. It is used to determine CMB, and it is added to CMB later. But those are two separate things.
used to determine. and bonus added to.
different.
Fury's Fall doesn't state you add your Dexterity Bonus after calculating CMB. This is something you are completely extrapolating. It simply says you add your Dexterity Bonus to CMB. Do you write on your Character sheet 6+4+2=12+4? Because that also makes no sense.
To get your total you have to add Fury's Fall to the CMB. Theres even a box on the Character sheet for other modifiers to your CMB.