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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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This monk has +1/+2 more to hit than the current monk; including the enhancement bonus as part of ki strike, means that he can spend his money on items other than an AoMF. PLUS, once DR comes into play, the larger damage this monk deals on a per hit basis makes it more likely (on average) that he will get through . . . and the enhancement bonus will get through common types of DR just like magic weapons do.

Now, compare each when they are moving . . . and this monk spends a point of ki. I think this version is close to what we should be shooting for: not as many weak attacks, but a greater number of attacks at the high attack bonus. And I believe that you will see the DPR continue to rise as this monk goes up in level. Even just one more level (11th) will give this monk another attack at his highest attack bonus, which will put him ahead of the game.

Is he going to be doing fighter DPR? No. But will he be hitting more often than a Core Rulebook monk? Yes. And he will be hitting for more average damage, if not for as much maximum damage.

MA


Dabbler wrote:
Yes it does, and the idea is NOT to replace the fighter in a four-person party, at least not in the conventional sense of guy-that-deals-heaps-of-damage.

This just takes us right back to the question of, "What is a Monk's party role?"

If a combat-only class isn't "supposed" to be able to fill the "Fighter slot" in a party that lacks a Fighter, then what are they supposed to fill? You've argued with me before that they do not have the proper tools to fill a Scout role. They also cast no spells.
Either they're designed to step in as the "Fighter type" or they're designed to be a "5th-wheel-only" choice.
Well, they're currently only good enough to fill a 5th wheel spot, and look how satisfied people are with that. :P


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes it does, and the idea is NOT to replace the fighter in a four-person party, at least not in the conventional sense of guy-that-deals-heaps-of-damage.

This just takes us right back to the question of, "What is a Monk's party role?"

If a combat-only class isn't "supposed" to be able to fill the "Fighter slot" in a party that lacks a Fighter, then what are they supposed to fill? You've argued with me before that they do not have the proper tools to fill a Scout role. They also cast no spells.
Either they're designed to step in as the "Fighter type" or they're designed to be a "5th-wheel-only" choice.
Well, they're currently only good enough to fill a 5th wheel spot, and look how satisfied people are with that. :P

No, they aren't (currently) even good enough to be a 5th wheel actually.

Seriously though: Does a ranger fill the fighter's role? No, not really. He doesn't have the high AC, or the DPR vs 'just anything' and he's too highly focussed on his favoured enemies. However, rangers are good scouts and all-rounders.

Does a magus fill a fighter's role? No, he actually comes closer to filling the wizard's role. But he can do enough of both.

However, with a magus and a ranger, you don't need a fighter because between them they have the fighting power to make up the difference.

There are a lot of these '5th wheel' characters, like bard, magus, inquisitor, ranger, and others. They can fill in for one of the standard four at a pinch, but they are better as what they are. The monk belongs in this class. The problem is that he can't actually do much at the moment.

The monk needs to be able to fulfil his stated role...and currently he can't.


Neo2151 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes it does, and the idea is NOT to replace the fighter in a four-person party, at least not in the conventional sense of guy-that-deals-heaps-of-damage.

This just takes us right back to the question of, "What is a Monk's party role?"

If a combat-only class isn't "supposed" to be able to fill the "Fighter slot" in a party that lacks a Fighter, then what are they supposed to fill? You've argued with me before that they do not have the proper tools to fill a Scout role. They also cast no spells.
Either they're designed to step in as the "Fighter type" or they're designed to be a "5th-wheel-only" choice.
Well, they're currently only good enough to fill a 5th wheel spot, and look how satisfied people are with that. :P

They don't fit the 5th wheel spot either. I'd much rather have any other core class as a 5th member, even if it was a second of a class we already had.


Dabbler wrote:

There are a lot of these '5th wheel' characters, like bard, magus, inquisitor, ranger, and others. They can fill in for one of the standard four at a pinch, but they are better as what they are. The monk belongs in this class. The problem is that he can't actually do much at the moment.

The monk needs to be able to fulfil his stated role...and currently he can't.

That's just my point though: What role? The only role I see for a Monk is a mobile fighter.

It is not at all statted for a Scout role (you can force it into one, but you can force any class into anything).
It is not an offensive caster.
It's not a buffer.
It's not a debuffer.
It's not a healer.
It's not a skill-monkey.
It has no support abilities at all (all of it's abilities only work on itself).

The only things the class knows how to do is Fight and Survive. Currently, it's only good at one of those two things, but if it becomes fixed and is suddenly good at both... How exactly does it suddenly become a hybrid 5th wheel? It's still only good at Fighting and Surviving.
That tells me it fills a "tank" spot.

Andoran

Neo2151 wrote:


That tells me it fills a "tank" spot.

Define the "tank" slot. I assume you mean replacing the fighter.

If you have a party of the classic 4 and the monk replaces the fighter (assuming we get the monk into shape offensively) the monk can help the other classes:

1: Rogue: Monk is actually probably a better flanking partner, given the monks mobility.

2: Wizard: Monk is very mobile, meaning he can get to the enemy he is trying to keep off the wizard more quickly.

3: Cleric: Isn't particularly impacted.

What the Monk can't do that the Fighter/Barb can is remove large amounts of hit points. Nor should the final version, at least not relative to a Fighter or Barb.

Now if the rest of your party is an Inquisitor, a Ranger, and a Bard...

This isn't 4e, roles are flexible. You just need to get the job done.


"Tank" as in, a high-defense Fighter type.

Andoran

Neo2151 wrote:
"Tank" as in, a high-defense Fighter type.

But what do you want them to be able to do.

If the tank job is to keep things off the caster, we can get a monk to do that. In some ways they are better at it than the fighter or barb.

If it is to be primary damage dealer, no.

The question isn't which of the classic five is this. The bard doesn't fit the classic five, nor does the druid, ranger, inquisitor, etc...

It isn't which role, it is if they have a role. If they can do something useful, they by definition contribute.

I don't want to have this all fall into the "roles" conversation. "Roles" are an old concept that goes back to a time when classes were less flexible and more dependent.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

There are a lot of these '5th wheel' characters, like bard, magus, inquisitor, ranger, and others. They can fill in for one of the standard four at a pinch, but they are better as what they are. The monk belongs in this class. The problem is that he can't actually do much at the moment.

The monk needs to be able to fulfil his stated role...and currently he can't.

That's just my point though: What role? The only role I see for a Monk is a mobile fighter.

It is not at all statted for a Scout role (you can force it into one, but you can force any class into anything).
It is not an offensive caster.
It's not a buffer.
It's not a debuffer.
It's not a healer.
It's not a skill-monkey.
It has no support abilities at all (all of it's abilities only work on itself).

The only things the class knows how to do is Fight and Survive. Currently, it's only good at one of those two things, but if it becomes fixed and is suddenly good at both... How exactly does it suddenly become a hybrid 5th wheel? It's still only good at Fighting and Surviving.
That tells me it fills a "tank" spot.

The monk's role:

Quote:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

A 'tank' has to have good AC, high hit points, powerful and accurate attacks. The monk is not a tank; he can have good AC, but hit points and attacks are just not cutting it at the moment. He IS very mobile, however. If his attacks were improved in accuracy and he had a means to exploiting enemy vulnerabilities, he'd be able to fill the stated role above. He'd be able to get between his allies and the enemy, or get around the enemy mooks to pin down their leader while the rest of the party do some constructive destruction to the foe.

But 'tank'? No, I don't see the monk in this role save as temporary measure. He doesn't dish out enough raw damage and he doesn't have the hit points for the job, and nor should he. There are more than enough tanks already.


shallowsoul wrote:
[...Ideas about ki powers lasting several rounds...]

While other classes have powers that last for several rounds or minutes, there is one thing I actually like about ki powers having only a 1 round duration: no bookkeeping required

You just decide what power to use this round and deduct the ki point(s) to power it. No counting of remaining rounds for each of the many ki powers you might have active at any one time.

To improve cost and swift action economy I would
- increase the number of ki points to monk level + Wis modifier (and Extra Ki would give +4 ki points).
- allow activating two powers with one swift action at, say, 8th level (similar to a Master of many styles activating several style feats at once with one swift action)
- allow to do that at the cost of the most expensive ki power being activated at, say, 12th level
- add more ki powers thereby increasing flexibility

(see this thread for some ideas being tossed around)


Neo2151 wrote:
"Tank" as in, a high-defense Fighter type.

A good tank has cannons mounted on it too, y'know. ;)

Andoran

Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
[...Ideas about ki powers lasting several rounds...]

While other classes have powers that last for several rounds or minutes, there is one thing I actually like about ki powers having only a 1 round duration: no bookkeeping required

Preach on.

The last thing we need is more bookkeeping at the table. This is why I hate the grit mechanic.

Simple, elegant solutions.


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Dabbler wrote:

[

That's just my point though: What role? The only role I see for a Monk is a mobile fighter.
It is not at all statted for a Scout role (you can force it into one, but you can force any class into anything).
It is not an offensive caster.
It's not a buffer.
It's not a debuffer.
It's not a healer.
It's not a skill-monkey.
It has no support abilities at all (all of it's abilities only work on itself).

The only things the class knows how to do is Fight and Survive. Currently, it's only good at one of those two things, but if it becomes fixed and is suddenly good at both... How exactly does it suddenly become a hybrid 5th wheel? It's still only good at Fighting and Surviving.
That tells me it fills a "tank" spot.

The monk's role:

Quote:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

You know, back in 1e, anything outside of the core 4 classes was put into a type. Fighter types, wizard types, cleric types, thief types. The classes under those types were good alternates to one of the four core classes for filling in those roles in the party.

Guess what type the monk fell under?

Nope, not fighter. Thief. It is kind of amusing really, all the other classes stayed true to the types they were originally. Except, apparently, the monk. I've been thinking about it, and I am starting to think that maybe instead of trying to turn the monk into a more martial class, a fighter type if you will, maybe the focus should be on making the monk more of a thief type, a good alternate choice for the rogue. And yeah, I know, it is a little more complex than that, but I really have been starting to wonder if maybe looking at it from a different role perspective might bring up some newer ideas instead of the same ones that always get tossed around.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

OK, having crunched some numbers, here are three monk builds. Each of these is built on the assumption of the three following provisos:

  • Ki-strike provides a +1 enhancement bonus to hit at 4th level, +1/3 levels after that to cap at +5 at 16th level. This applies to maneuvers as well as unarmed strikes.
  • Wis is used as the to-hit/CMB modifier for unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
  • Spending 1 ki the monk can overcome 1 DR per level for 1 round per level on one target.

    Level 5 Test:
    Monk Test #1
    Human Monk 5
    LG Medium Humanoid (human)
    Init +2; Senses Perception +12
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 20, touch 18, flat-footed 18 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
    hp 38 (5d8+10)
    Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantment
    Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 40 ft.
    Melee Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
    . . Masterwork Kama +8 (1d6+2/x2) and
    . . Unarmed strike +9 (1d8+2/x2) (FoB +9/+9)
    Ranged Masterwork Light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20/x2)
    Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +3/+3, Ki Strike, Magic
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 8
    Base Atk +3; CMB +10 (+12 Grappling); CMD 24 (26 vs. Grapple)
    Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies,

    Snake Style, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16), Toughness +5, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
    Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
    Skills Acrobatics +10 (+14 jump, +15 to jump), Climb +8, Disable Device +11, Escape Artist +6, Knowledge (history) +4,

    Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +12, Ride +6, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +10, Survival +9, Swim +6
    Languages Common
    SQ AC Bonus +5, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump (+5/+25 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 20', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
    Combat Gear Dagger, Masterwork Kama, Masterwork Light crossbow; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Amulet of natural armor +1, Antitoxin, Bracers of armor +1, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +1, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 65.04 lbs), Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Ring of protection +1, Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
    Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
    Alchemical Power Component
    Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
    Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
    Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
    Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
    Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
    Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
    Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
    High Jump (+5/+25 with Ki point) (Ex) +5 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
    Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
    Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
    Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
    Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
    Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    Ki Strike, +1 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as +1 magic to hit & overcome DR.
    Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
    Penetrate DR bypass 5 DR for 5 rounds for 1 ki
    Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
    Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
    Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
    Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
    Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
    Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
    Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
    Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.

    So to sum up, attacking at +9 to hit for 1d8+2 and bypassing up to 5 DR. Good accuracy, poor damage. AC and HP are OK but AC is less than I would normally see on a dex-built monk. However that DR bypass gives this monk a nice niche, as does immunity to disease, as lycanthropes are now toast to him.

    Level 10 Test:
    Monk Test #1
    Human Monk 10
    LG Medium Humanoid (human)
    Init +3; Senses Perception +20
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 24 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
    hp 73 (10d8+20)
    Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +16; +2 vs. enchantment
    Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 60 ft.
    Melee Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
    . . Masterwork Kama +15/+10 (1d6+2/x2) and
    . . Unarmed strike +18/+13 (2d6+2/19-20/x2) (FoB +19/+19/+14/+14)
    Ranged +1 Light crossbow +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
    Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike +3
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 14, Dex 14/16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20/24, Cha 8
    Base Atk +7; CMB +20 (+22 Grappling, +22 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
    Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
    Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
    Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump, +26 to jump), Climb +12, Disable Device +16, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +20, Ride +7, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Survival +12, Swim +6
    Languages Common
    SQ AC Bonus +9, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 50', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
    Combat Gear +1 Light crossbow, Dagger, Masterwork Kama; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Amulet of natural armor +2, Antitoxin, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Bracers of armor +3, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +2, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 89.14 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Monk's robe, Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
    Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
    Alchemical Power Component
    Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
    Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
    Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
    Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
    Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
    Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
    Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
    High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
    Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
    Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
    Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
    Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
    Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
    Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
    Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
    Ki Strike, +3 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic +3 to hit & overcome DR.
    Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
    Penetrate DR bypass 10 DR for 10 rounds for 1 ki
    Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
    Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
    Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
    Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
    Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
    Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
    Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
    Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
    Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
    Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
    Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.

    To sum this monk up, AC 27 is a little lower than I'd like, but OK. Hp are likewise reasonable. Accuracy is the huge plus here: +19 on a 10th level monk is truly outstanding, although par for the course on a full BAB class. Damage at 2d6+3 is less than stellar, but the ability to bypass up to 10 DR is really going to start to count. When looking at the AoMF I realised there was just nothing there I wanted for the cost, so I went for better AC instead.

    Level 15 Test:
    Monk Test #1
    Human Monk 15
    LG Medium Humanoid (human)
    Init +5; Senses Perception +26
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 37, touch 31, flat-footed 31 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +3 deflection, +1 dodge)
    hp 123 (15d8+45)
    Fort +15, Ref +18, Will +21
    Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 25
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 80 ft.
    Melee +1 Ghost touch Adamantine Kama +20/+15/10 (1d6+4/x2) and
    . . Dagger +14/+9/+4 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
    . . Unarmed strike +24/+19/+14 (2d8+3+2d6 vs. Evil/19-20/x2) (FoB +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15)
    Ranged +1 Light crossbow +17/+12/+7 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
    Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike +4, Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 25)
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 14/16, Dex 14/20, Con 12/14, Int 10, Wis 21/27, Cha 8
    Base Atk +11; CMB +27 (+29 Grappling, +29 Tripping); CMD 49 (51 vs. Grapple, 55 vs. Trip)
    Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Patrol (+10'), Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dimensional Agility, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (16/day) (DC 25), Toughness +15, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
    Traits Poverty-Stricken, Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
    Skills Acrobatics +23 (+43 jump, +38 to jump), Climb +13, Disable Device +21, Escape Artist +12, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +26, Ride +9, Sense Motive +28, Stealth +23, Survival +13, Swim +7
    Languages Common
    SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +11, Antitoxin, Fast Movement (+50'), High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Slow Fall 70', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+3 Ki), Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use), Winged boots (3/day)
    Combat Gear +1 Ghost touch Adamantine Kama, +1 Light crossbow, Dagger; Other Gear Acid (2), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (2), Antitoxin, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Bracers of armor +6, Bullseye lantern, waterproof, Chalk, Climber's kit, Cloak of resistance +4, Crowbar, Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Handy haversack (34 @ 269.14 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Holy Amulet of mighty fists, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale blue rhomboid), Ioun stone (pink rhomboid), Monk's robe, Paper, Pot, Quick runner's shirt (1/day), Ring of protection +3, Scroll case (empty), Sealing wax, Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope, Sunrod (5), Tea ceremony set, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Thread (50 ft.), Trail rations (3), Waterskin, Winged boots (3/day)
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
    AC Bonus +11 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
    Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
    Alchemical Power Component
    Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
    Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
    Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
    Combat Patrol (+10') Full-round action: increase your threatened area by +10' until your next turn.
    Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
    Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
    Dimensional Agility May take any additional actions remaining after using dimension door or abundant step
    Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
    Fast Movement (+50') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
    Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
    High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point) (Ex) +15 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
    Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
    Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
    Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
    Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
    Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
    Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
    Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
    Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
    Ki Strike, +4 (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as +4 to hit & magic to overcome DR.
    Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
    Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
    Penetrate DR bypass 15 DR for 15 rounds for 1 ki
    Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
    Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
    Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 25) (Su) Begin vibrations you can trigger with a thought to kill subject later.
    Slow Fall 70' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
    Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
    Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
    Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
    Spell Resistance (25) You have Spell Resistance.
    Stunning Fist (16/day) (DC 25) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
    Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels hereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
    Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
    Vow of Truth (+3 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
    Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
    Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.

    Summing this monk up, the AC is looking excellent. Hp could be better, but the accuracy is really a great improvement. Damage is a bit meh, but nothing to sneeze at. Ability to bypass up to 15 DR will make that damage count no matter what.

    All three builds have surplus cash for consumables which I have not included.

    Two things I really noticed about these three builds: First off, the to-hit is better than I have ever seen on a monk of these levels; they are actually hitting as accurately as a full BAB class. Second, damage output is not so hot. However, given the DR-bypass, accuracy of the strikes, numbers on the CMBs, and DCs on special abilities, this I don't see as an issue.

    Edit: Actually the AD&D monk wasn't put in any class-type, it was set aside as a class of it's own. The point that was made was that the monk didn't actually fit into any of the four 'types'.

  • Andoran

    Dabbler wrote:

    OK, having crunched some numbers, here are three monk builds. Each of these is built on the assumption of the three following provisos:

  • Ki-strike provides a +1 enhancement bonus to hit at 4th level, +1/3 levels after that to cap at +5 at 16th level. This applies to maneuvers as well as unarmed strikes.
  • Wis is used as the to-hit/CMB modifier for unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
  • Spending 1 ki the monk can overcome 1 DR per level for 1 round per level on one target.

    ** spoiler omitted **...

  • Well done.

    I think we are getting closer and I hope the Devs take cues from this kind of stuff.


    You sure Dabbler? It has been a while since I cracked my AD&D books open and looked at those sections, but I woulda swore they were classed that way at some point.

    Meh, that's ok lol. Still similar enough to what I was trying to get at anyway.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I remember my old PHB well ;) the monk was listed last of all the classes with a note that this was because it fell outside the norm. Back then it was a 5th wheel, possibly the first one if you discount the bard which was a really weird amalgam.


    Dabbler wrote:
    I remember my old PHB well ;) the monk was listed last of all the classes with a note that this was because it fell outside the norm. Back then it was a 5th wheel, possibly the first one if you discount the bard which was a really weird amalgam.

    Also, there was no point buy for stats - you always rolled the dice. And some classes were only playable if you rolled better than average (I seem to recall that paladins and druids had to have high charisma). I can't remember the minimum requirements for monks, but I'm guessing they needed better than average too.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Just so. Now everything is based around point-buy, which means all classes have to be playable at an average set of roles...now Paizo fixed the paladin from this horrible mess, but the monk is still languishing in it.


    "Guess what type the monk fell under?

    Nope, not fighter. Thief. It is kind of amusing really, all the other classes stayed true to the types they were originally. Except, apparently, the monk. I've been thinking about it, and I am starting to think that maybe instead of trying to turn the monk into a more martial class, a fighter type if you will, maybe the focus should be on making the monk more of a thief type, a good alternate choice for the rogue"

    I recall that too! Yes, they were associated with the thief. They could choose to take the crazy acrobatics option to be the most nimble around (whereas the rogue was a generalist in thief related skills, but far less nimble than the acrobatic monk).

    I don't want the monk to be just a fighter that uses unarmed and no armour, there is a lot more that can be done, but more should not just keep being added to the monk. They need to re-assess and perhaps take a flurrying fast and leaping rogue course.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    You may know your 3.5, but you do not know your AD&D...monk was not a thief.

    Edit: Found the section in my very old PHB...

    AD&D PHB page 30 wrote:

    The Monk

    The monk is the most unusual of all characters, the hardest to qualify for, and perhaps, the most deadly. That is why the class is given out of alphabetical order at the end of the section purtaining to character classes.

    All sub-classes are given after the main class and state clearly in the first line that they are a sub-class - Assassin of thief, druid of cleric, illusionist of magic user, and both ranger and paladin of fighter. Monk doesn't, it isn't a sub-class.


    Krigare wrote:

    The monk's role:

    Quote:
    Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

    You know, back in 1e, anything outside of the core 4 classes was put into a type. Fighter types, wizard types, cleric types, thief types. The classes under those types were good alternates to one of the four core classes for filling in those roles in the party.

    Guess what type the monk fell under?

    Nope, not fighter. Thief. It is kind of amusing really, all the other classes stayed true to the types they were originally. Except, apparently, the monk. I've been thinking about it, and I am starting to think that maybe instead of trying to turn the monk into a more martial class, a fighter type if you will, maybe the focus should be on making the monk more of a thief type, a good alternate choice for the rogue. And yeah, I know, it is a little more complex than that, but I really have been starting to wonder if maybe looking at it from a different role perspective might bring up some newer ideas instead of the same ones that always get tossed around.

    3.5 Loyalist wrote:

    I recall that too! Yes, they were associated with the thief. They could choose to take the crazy acrobatics option to be the most nimble around (whereas the rogue was a generalist in thief related skills, but far less nimble than the acrobatic monk).

    I don't want the monk to be just a fighter that uses unarmed and no armour, there is a lot more that can be done, but more should not just keep being added to the monk. They need to re-assess and perhaps take a flurrying fast and leaping rogue course.

    My memories of AD&D are old and faded, but I recall that the monk was the high-acrobatics option for players who wanted to play Lawful alignment.

    Most suggestions on the Paizo Messageboards about repairing the core monk rely on the fixing the class as it currently exists, in which its role is combat and defense, with some builds allowing for combat maneuvers. The few suggestions for improving the monk from a different role perspective are lost in the tide of combat-related suggestions.

    Nevertheless, I love those few non-combat suggestions. They present a more rounded monk.

    The role statement that Krigare quotes shows the areas where the monk is supposed to excel:


    • Taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities -- Stunning Fist, trip, and disarm, when they work.
    • Fleet of foot -- the 3rd level Fast Movement ability.
    • Skilled in combat -- Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows. However, the monk is has only 3/4 BAB progression and lacks proficiency in all simple weapons. Contradiction here.
    • Can navigate any battlefield with ease -- Nothing except Fast Movement and High Jump, which do not provide "ease".
    • Aiding allies wherever they are needed most -- Almost all the monk's abilites affect only himself. Major fail here.

    Imagine that the monk had abilities that let acrobatics be useful. What if moving across the battlefield by jumping reduced attacks of opportunity against the monk? What if Acrobatic skill could give bonuses to combat maneuvers? What if the monk could help other classes spelunk a cave or trek through a swamp?

    The monk has enough skill points to max out the Acrobatics skill. Combined with high Dexterity, it could be impressive.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Mathmuse wrote:
    Krigare wrote:

    The monk's role:

    Quote:
    Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
    Taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities -- Stunning Fist, trip, and disarm, when they work.

    Monk's don't automatically get the maneuvers, they just get free access to the basic feats. if the monk wants Greater Trip, they need intelligence and Combat Expertise, just like everyone else. Essentially, monks are no better at maneuvers than any other class.

    That leaves stunning fist, and for your average monk this seems to have a less than 10% chance of working well unless you construct your entire build around it, then it might get to 15% or 20% in some cases, but is easily shut down like the rest of the monk by a high DR.

    Mathmuse wrote:
    Fleet of foot -- the 3rd level Fast Movement ability.

    Problem is, with haste as the most popular battlefield buff, everyone else gets the same bonus to speed, so the monk has no particular advantage. A lesser bonus to speed that is not an enhancement bonus would be more advantageous.

    Mathmuse wrote:
    Skilled in combat - Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows. However, the monk is has only 3/4 BAB progression and lacks proficiency in all simple weapons. Contradiction here.

    The monk's weapons are awful, even unarmed strike is effectively nerfed by lack of enhancement, and MADness means the monk's hitting stat will lag behind other classes. DR is a major problem too thanks to lack of enhancement.

    Mathmuse wrote:
    Can navigate any battlefield with ease -- Nothing except Fast Movement and High Jump, which do not provide "ease".

    Especially when someone says the words "I cast fly". The only other ability the monk gets is abundant step, which carries a feat tax for battlefield use, and which the monk gets way after the spell-casters gain access to it to move the whole party around.

    Mathmuse wrote:
    Aiding allies wherever they are needed most -- Almost all the monk's abilities affect only himself. Major fail here.

    Ditto. The monk's 'aid allies' basically comes down to providing flanking or being a distraction now and again.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Has anyone looked at increasing ability scores as a way of empowering monks? I've always thought that with the whole "perfection of body and mind" thing they've got going on, that would be a better fit than just getting bonuses to hit etc. Would help them be generalists too, as high scores help with skills etc.

    Instead of reducing their Multiple Ability Disorder, they'd be the masters of MAD.

    Just a thought.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Ilja wrote:

    Has anyone looked at increasing ability scores as a way of empowering monks? I've always thought that with the whole "perfection of body and mind" thing they've got going on, that would be a better fit than just getting bonuses to hit etc. Would help them be generalists too, as high scores help with skills etc.

    Instead of reducing their Multiple Ability Disorder, they'd be the masters of MAD.

    Just a thought.

    It has, but how do you stop the monk player just maxing out one stat and not boosting up a low one? There are other ways of reducing MAD, take the paladin for example:

    3.5 paladin needed strength for attack and damage, wisdom for spell-casting, charisma for special abilities and constitution for hit points. You needed at least strength maxed out and the rest at reasonable (14+) scores.

    PF Paladin shifted spell-casting to charisma (removing the necessity for wisdom) and gave them lay-on-hands to themselves as a swift action reducing the need for Con. You can now make a paladin work from just Strength and Charisma, as long as you don't dump-stat Constitution you are OK.

    Monk's problem is he needs wisdom for special abilities, dexterity for AC, strength for damage, con for hit points and if you are trying for a scouting/maneuver monk, intelligence for skill points/Combat Expertise. One of strength or dexterity needs to be maxed out to get good odds to hit, wisdom can't be skimped on, nor can dexterity. Con and Int need to have at least a positive bonus if you want to function with them.

    That's why we hear about anecdotal monks that were fine, then discover that they had three 18 scores in a dice-rolled set of stats. So what can we cut down?

    Intelligence is a choice, we can skip that one; the real problem is that you need maxed-out scores on too many things. This is why I suggested allowing wisdom-bonus-to-hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes for the monk instead of strength or dexterity. Then you only need one maxed-out score, wisdom, and can balance up the rest as you see fit. Making some big improvements to wholeness-of-body would reduce the need for Con. Then you need one maxed-out score and just two moderate-good ones.


    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Dabbler wrote:
    Ilja wrote:

    Has anyone looked at increasing ability scores as a way of empowering monks? I've always thought that with the whole "perfection of body and mind" thing they've got going on, that would be a better fit than just getting bonuses to hit etc. Would help them be generalists too, as high scores help with skills etc.

    Instead of reducing their Multiple Ability Disorder, they'd be the masters of MAD.

    Just a thought.

    It has, but how do you stop the monk player just maxing out one stat and not boosting up a low one? There are other ways of reducing MAD, take the paladin for example:

    3.5 paladin needed strength for attack and damage, wisdom for spell-casting, charisma for special abilities and constitution for hit points. You needed at least strength maxed out and the rest at reasonable (14+) scores.

    The thing is that by reducing mad you encourage dump-statting or at least being mediocre at a lot of things. That fits well for a paladin (a wisdumping paladin kind of fits the holier-than-thou lawful-stupid trope) but for a monk I don't feel it should have any low stats.

    But limiting it is very possible. There's the option of adding the same bonus to all stats, or at least not letting the player choose freely. Maybe something like an increased point buy, increasing by level? Something like this (not in legalese):

    Disciple of Perfection (Ex):

    Spoiler:
    At 1st level, the monk gains a training pool with one point. For every level beyond the first, it gains two more points. These points may be applied to ability scores for the point buy cost (raising wisdom from 14 to 16 would cost 5 points from the pool, for example). Whenever the monk gains a level or spends a full month of physical training and meditation, the monk may reapply these points to different scores. These ability score increases are not bonuses but rather treated the same way as increases due to increased hit dice.

    This is just a quick draft as an example of how it could look. The same limits as normal would apply (no stat score may be above 18, for example). The monk would probably get one stat high from the start and continue increasing it with the standard HD bonuses, and let these go into secondary stats - so it can have decent to high stats in all scores. In this example above, at 10th level you'll have 19 in your pool. On a 15 pt buy at 10th level that could be something like (here dex is the main stat, 17 +2 racial +5 levels, and this is before items):
    Str 14 Dex 21 Con 12 Wis 16 Int 10 Cha 10

    At 15th it could be something like:
    Str 15 Dex 22 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 12 Cha 12

    I don't know how much this would affect the monk, just throwing it out as a concept more than a refined rule proposal.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I hear what you say about dump-stating, but that happens with monks anyway - currently most effective monk builds are just about able to grunt "Monk smash!" with their charisma and intelligence values dropped to the minimum.

    I like the idea of the monk achieving physical perfection, but I don't see how to do it easily...and without other classes dipping the monk for bonus stats.


    Ilja wrote:
    Disciple of Perfection (Ex)

    That's a very nice idea, Ilja!

    Very monkish and making it an increased point buy is a great idea to get it balanced!


    Dabbler wrote:

    I hear what you say about dump-stating, but that happens with monks anyway - currently most effective monk builds are just about able to grunt "Monk smash!" with their charisma and intelligence values dropped to the minimum.

    I like the idea of the monk achieving physical perfection, but I don't see how to do it easily...and without other classes dipping the monk for bonus stats.

    I don't think that the training pool idea is very attractive for dipping. The pool might even start at level 2 or 3 to discourage dipping.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Yes but tracking the math on it is horrible.

    Don't get me wrong I do like the concept, but I can't see it solving the monk's problems that easily, and there is a lot of potential for abuse.

    In my Mystic Monk design I gave the capstone ability a +2 bonus to all stats, because, well, I think that's what monks are about. But that's a capstone...


    I don't think the math is that bad since it's out of combat only. It's much the same thing as evolution points, but even simpler in that it can only be spent on 6 things.

    Though the ability is of course not adjusted for balance with amounts of points and such.


    Ilja, neat idea. I am not sure how it would work in practice, but it keeps the Monk MAD and preserves (enhances?) the flavor of the monk representing perfection of abilities.

    In order to discourage dips, you could say that any levels taken in another class would not benefit from these ability boosts. That leads to two different sets of ability scores, but the same is true for those darned Synthesists.


    I don't think two sets of ability scores is a good idea, far too much work. It's easier in that case I think to have the bonus smaller at low levels and increasing faster at later. If the bonus is 1/level for the first 5 or so levels, it's not really that worth it to dip I think.


    Ilja wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    Ilja wrote:

    Has anyone looked at increasing ability scores as a way of empowering monks? I've always thought that with the whole "perfection of body and mind" thing they've got going on, that would be a better fit than just getting bonuses to hit etc. Would help them be generalists too, as high scores help with skills etc.

    Instead of reducing their Multiple Ability Disorder, they'd be the masters of MAD.

    Just a thought.

    It has, but how do you stop the monk player just maxing out one stat and not boosting up a low one? There are other ways of reducing MAD, take the paladin for example:

    3.5 paladin needed strength for attack and damage, wisdom for spell-casting, charisma for special abilities and constitution for hit points. You needed at least strength maxed out and the rest at reasonable (14+) scores.

    The thing is that by reducing mad you encourage dump-statting or at least being mediocre at a lot of things. That fits well for a paladin (a wisdumping paladin kind of fits the holier-than-thou lawful-stupid trope) but for a monk I don't feel it should have any low stats.

    But limiting it is very possible. There's the option of adding the same bonus to all stats, or at least not letting the player choose freely. Maybe something like an increased point buy, increasing by level? Something like this (not in legalese):

    Disciple of Perfection (Ex):
    ** spoiler omitted **

    This is just a quick draft as an example of how it could look. The...

    This is... really, really smart.


    Ilja wrote:


    Disciple of Perfection (Ex):
    ** spoiler omitted **

    WOW i love that idea, very unique and not very op seeing as though a monk would gain minimal gains past 15 and it wouldnt allow for the stat to be higher then 18


    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    The problem with no gains until you get to late in the game is just that. The monk's problems usually really start to bite at around 7th to 8th level, that's where we want help to kick in.

    How about this for a solution that works a lot simpler than the method Ilja proposed:

    Disciple of Perfection (that name is just so cool)
    When you gain a +1 advancement bonus to an ability score from level increases, for every four class levels you have in the Monk class you gain that +1 to an additional ability score. Hence at 4th level monk you gain +1 to two ability scores. At 8th level monk you gain +1 in three ability scores, at 12th level +1 to four ability scores, at 16th level five scores, and at 20th level you gain +1 to all ability scores.

    That's a significant boost by 8th level, but not a hugely broken one given the monk's MADness. By 8th level the monk can have at most +2 to one stat, +2 to a second and +1 to a third. It may lead to scores above 18, but not brokenly so as the monk has several stats that beg to be maxed out, and he can only max out one of them currently. Looking at my retired 14th level monk, she'd have at best two stats at +3, one at +2 and one at +1. At 20th level a monk would have +5, +5, +4, +3, +2, +1. Or the lower numbers could spread around more.

    You know, I think that might just actually work.


    i like her idea more because it would prevent the monk from exceeding a base of 18. with your idea dabbler the monk with an 18, what ever, at 4th level would gain a +2 to that score. Ilja's version would allow a monk to max out one score to an 18, or more, and then have lower scores that would be offset as he levels. at 8th level Ilja's version would net a +5 to her point buy, which could raise a low stat to a more respectible number, for instance:

    a 20 point buy, the stats are unlisted so put the numbers in the attribute you like most then add what ever racial you would have to that. i would change it to +4 per for levels with 0 in the pool at level 1.

    17 (13)
    14 (5)
    14 (5)
    13 (3)
    8 (-2)
    7 (-4)

    with her method it would change those scores to something like:

    18
    16
    14
    13
    8
    7

    then at 8th it would be:

    18
    16
    16
    15
    8
    8
    or something to that extent. i think this would prevent minmaxing of the "best stat" and allow you to have a good STR,DEX,WIS,CON by 8th level. you would be able to maintain that highest score, while bringing up the weaker ones if you choose to.

    with that system you wouldnt even need to change the core of the monk to get the necessary bonuses to hit to stay on par with the rest of the front line classes.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Jupp wrote:
    i like her idea more because it would prevent the monk from exceeding a base of 18. with your idea dabbler the monk with an 18, what ever, at 4th level would gain a +2 to that score.

    Read the phrasing:

    Quote:
    When you gain a +1 advancement bonus to an ability score from level increases, for every four class levels you have in the Monk class you gain that +1 to an additional ability score. Hence at 4th level monk you gain +1 to two ability scores.

    Emphasis mine above.

    4th level gives +1 to two different scores.
    At 8th level gain +1 to three different scores.
    etc.

    For example, I could at 4th level take +1 to Dexterity and Wisdom.
    At 8th level +1 to Strength, Dexterity (to +2), and Wisdom (to +2).
    At 12th level +1 to Strength (to +2), Dexterity (to +3), Constitution, and Wisdom (to +3).
    At 16th level +1 to Dexterity (to +4), Constitution (to +2), Wisdom (to +4), Intelligence, and Charisma.
    At 20th level +1 to Strength (to +3), Dexterity (to +5), Constitution (to +3), Wisdom (to +5), Intelligence (to +2), and Charisma (to +2).

    At no level does any score gain more than a +1. This could be modified, so it only kicks in at 8th level, perhaps, but either way it's simple and doesn't require as much bookkeeping.


    Jeez, this thread.

    Anyway Monks are garbage, absolute garbage. A total grab bag of contradictory abilities that don't have any synergy with each other and tend to force the Monk into a ridiculous MAD build.

    Let's not pretend that the Monk is in any way a decent fifth wheel character, all of the other traditional fifth wheel character classes such as the bard are vastly better than the monk. Hell in many cases a Druid's Animal Companion is a more worthy 5th wheel than the monk. Let's not even talk about the Eidolon.

    The truth of the matter is that feats aren't going to be enough to fix the Monk. Giving a monk new feats are like slapping a coat of paint on a house that's ready to fall down, it doesn't fix any of the structural issues and just fools novice players into playing something "cool" that in the end is completely inferior mechanically.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Yeah...that's why we are talking about structural changes for the monk, you know? Not feats, not items, but changes to the core class monk.


    Dabbler wrote:
    Yeah...that's why we are talking about structural changes for the monk, you know? Not feats, not items, but changes to the core class monk.

    But things like the Monk gaining ability points at a faster than 1 per 4 level ratio are just weird bandaids and don't really get to the heart of the issue.

    Sometimes instead of bolting on a clunky subsytem in order to patch a problem you need to go back to the core of why the monk sucks and the easiest ways to fix those issues.

    If the monk had full BAB and the ability to get a pounce like effect at level 6+ would people have nearly as much issues with the class? Probably not because then it would actually be a mobile striker that can hit hard from a distance. It could actually function in the much promised mage killer role that it's always hinted at but never really delivered on.

    But it seems like invariably people get afraid of giving 3/4 BAB classes a accuracy boost even though the Monk is supposed to function pretty much as a full BAB class, as to pounce I think pretty much every martial class needs the ability to get pounce or something like it in order to solve some of the core underlying mobility issues that haunt the martial classes.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Oh I agree, but the devs don't want a full overhaul of the entire Pathfinder system, this is not Pathfinder 2.0. This is "what likes can we insert that make the monk better with minimal impact?"

    I think that:
    1) Allow ki-strike to carry an enhancement bonus to hit (not damage) that scales with level - +1 at 4th level, +1/3 levels to cap at +5. This can stack with properties from an amulet of mighty fists or similar. Gets past the monk's problem with finding unarmed enhancment.
    2) Allow monks to use wisdom bonus instead of strength as their attack modifier and in CMB. Reduces MAD somewhat.
    3) Introduce a ki-power to allow the monk to bypass DR: 1 ki point allows a monk to bypass 1 DR per level for 1 round per level on one target. Get rid of the ki-strike DR bypasses and replace them with this. Gets by DR foiling the monk's low damage output.

    Other possibilities:
    4) Allow the 20' movement bonus to be movement on a swift action. Effectively a 20' move-and-pounce.
    5) Allow Wholeness of body to function like lay on hands and it's mercies, but only on the monk himself. Reduces reliance on con and actually does something useful.
    6) Allow Diamond Body to be lowered as a free action to benign spells.


    I love Disciple of Perfection; I wonder how it would affect word count. (Delete Slow Fall? Everyone hates it, it seems.) It occurs to me that making the Monk a full BAB class wouldn't affect word count at all! :D


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    It's novel, I agree. I think it could be OP if we are not careful, though, and I prefer wis-to-hit as a solution to MAD.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

    Personally, I think that the idea of using the MAD as a basis for something that makes a Monk feel more Monk-ish is awesome, and requires far less re-tooling than other options.

    I would use that instead of the WIS to Hit part (though I am having second thoughts) but I think it combines well with 1 and 3, above. #4 is a neat idea, but might be a solution in search of a problem, and while I think 5 is cool, it might be a bit system-invasive


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Well I don't like #5 that much as a solution, but Wholeness of bopdy as is sucks donkey-balls and serves no useful purpose. You can't seriously use it in combat, and out of combat you can drink a potion and save your ki. This solution didn't increase the word-count by more than a few, so it got the vote.

    I certainly wouldn't combine disciple of Perfection with Wis-to-hit, it's an either/or option.


    Dabbler, great alternative to Ilja's idea!
    I like that it is much easier to use.


    There is nothing wrong with Monks. The problem lies in the players who abuse the rules.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Gdub411 wrote:
    There is nothing wrong with Monks. The problem lies in the players who abuse the rules.

    Huh? So monks suck when we play them because we are abusing the rules? How does that work?


    Dabbler wrote:
    Jupp wrote:
    i like her idea more because it would prevent the monk from exceeding a base of 18. with your idea dabbler the monk with an 18, what ever, at 4th level would gain a +2 to that score.
    At no level does any score gain more than a +1. This could be modified, so it only kicks in at 8th level, perhaps, but either way it's simple and doesn't require as much bookkeeping.

    ok so let me change my original statement, i missexpressed my concern,

    you have this:
    At 20th level +1 to Strength (to +3), Dexterity (to +5), Constitution (to +3), Wisdom (to +5), Intelligence (to +2), and Charisma (to +2).

    that means over 20 levels you gain :
    +5 to dex ,which is what a normal character would be able to max using the normal system of 1 per 4 levels, +5 to wisdom, + 3 to strength, +3 to con, +2 to cha, and +2 to int.

    thats what im talking about. its a horrible idea because if i play a tengu in PFS then my tengue with a +16 dex and a +16 wisdom, gets a racial modifier of +2 to each. your tengu would net a +21/21, at 12, in those stats... as your base... it would never be allowed at my table.

    Ilja's system obeys the rules of point buy, meaning you will never have more then an 18 base + racials on any skill. thats why i like her system more then the one you proposed.

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