Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?Oh you know how it is, you're at work, alone, at night, bored out of your mind, just had a very successful game where your party fought and lost to a dragon with only minimal damage to the dragon and only dropping one party member, and you're thinking, "how could I possible be bored when I have silly fluff like this to read. After all the barbarian who was jumping all over to place to get up to hit the dragon when it swooped in, or the monk who was doing the same thing just weren't funny enough, I should really read how some fighter with feats to spare will complain that he can't fly and refuses to purchase anything that could possible grant him that ability, he just wants to be able to fly without doing anything about it."
And then I typed this. And you?
I saw this thread when it first started, and immediately thought, "Well, this person is clearly just being difficult for difficulty's sake; if we ignore him, the thread will quickly make its way off the main page and fade into oblivion and my hatred of humans will slumber on." But then people kept responding. And saying the same thing over and over! Seriously, count the number of posts that say "Get a bow."* And the OP is clearly being intentionally obstinate and I'm tired and it's just SO FRUSTRATING and if we all just ignored it it would go away and dammit now I'm being a hypocrite and contributing to this thread. Ugh.
*Please don't.
But, if we don't keep intrawebz arguments alive then the TROLLZ have won! Therefore we must for the sake of the tuubz fight on!
But I totally hear you on adding to the thread. I swore I wouldn't click on the link to see what else was added, but I actually see some numbers in the posts between this and now. Not that they'll make a lick of difference, but you know, numbers.
Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?It is not boredom, it is a strong sense of duty
HAHAHAHA
yousaidDOODY!
ALSO: Bomanz, did I not tell you on page 6 post# 284 of this very thread that you have to change your name to Bomanzisonfire, after flaming your post most egregiously?? Son, I am disappoint.
I declare that this post should devolve into silliness and ignore Cpt angrypants deuxfighter or whatever his name is. The sad thing is that Chris Lambertz is deleting other posters and not the troll.
I can't find any rules for what Strength score is required to throw a 40 pound object.
Is it really true that any character with Strength 4 or more can throw something 40 pounds fifty feet?
(Lifting 40 pounds over your head requires a Strength 4 or more. Improvised weapons all have a 10' range increment and thrown weapons have a maximum range of five increments.)
If so, the Wizard need to cast a spell to allow an only-melee Gnome or Halfling Fighter to reach a flying foe.
Fastball Special -- the at-will ability for anyone adventuring with a Small Fighter...
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ALSO: Bomanz, did I not tell you on page 6 post# 284 of this very thread that you have to change your name to Bomanzisonfire, after flaming your post most egregiously?? Son, I am disappoint.
Flammable post was flammable, thusly did I flame. When one opens the door so wide, it can only be expected that some will walk through, some will stride purposely through, some will stomp through.
I chose to do the Funky Chicken and the Mashed Potato all thru that sumamabeesh.
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I read the first two pages of attacks on the OP, and skipped the next 8, assuming them to be more of the same. Let me just say I partly share the OP's concern, but dealt with it NOT by making fighters fly, but by making a small amendment to the Fly skill:
Attacked While Flying: Any creature with no ranks in Fly skill is automatically considered flat-footed while flying; those trained are not. Trained or otherwise, if you take damage while flying you must make a Fly check at DC 20 + twice the damage sustained. Failure means you 5 feet of altitude, plus a number of additional feet of altitude equal to the margin by which you fail the check (this descent does not count against your movement). If the total altitude loss is greater than your initial altitude, you crash into the ground, taking falling damage as appropriate for the total amount of distance fallen.
A fighter with a bow is now able to deal with flying targets.
I have NEVER been a fan of "mundane fighter" as a class concept in a high fantasy game.
Guy empowered by the force of righteousness itself? Good.
Guy who gets so angry he can rip a man in two? Good.
Wizard who isn't quite as good at Wizardry as most in exchange for knowing how to use a weapon? Good.
Guy so skilled at meditation and self disipline he can pull off stunts that defy physics? Good (in fluff anyways).
Guy who literally has no special fighting ability greater than an average guard except knowing a few more tricks and hitting slightly harder? Why does this exist?(Seriously, there is literally no observable ability for someone in universe to tell a Fighter from an NPC class.)
Then here is a thought.. Play the warrior NPC class for a while, then tell us how different they really are. I think you utterly miss the point of what a fighter is supposed to be. Those "tricks" and harder hits is what sets them apart from the warrior..the thing that makes the a hero vs skilled.
Also..if you expect every combat to behave in a "fair" way..go play a board game. Its not about the characters..its about challenging the players| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look Fighters are fine. They are more then fine. They are competitive as a DPS or a Tank or as a controller. That is obvious unless you are being argumentative(cough* cough*) or just don't have a good handle on the game.
Now as to the issue of being FUN. That is another story. ANY class can be fun if you have a good background and are willing to RP. However the Fighter class has less "out of the box" to help it stay interesting outside combat.
There is a class that mimics the Fighter and has all the customization and unique abilities that you could want. A class that adds a ton of abilities that can help both in and out of combat. And still has that "Fighter" feel.
In 3.5 they released a book that was both praised and hated.
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
The purpose of the book was to increase the viability of melee combatants in the D&D game to continue to be comparable to magic user characters into high-level play, by giving them versatile combat maneuvers and stances that can be expended as magic users expend spells.
Martial Adepts are the base classes in Tome of Battle. Two of the three classes parallel existing classes, but gain different class features, as well as access to the powerful techniques of the Sublime Way: Crusader, which parallels the religious strictures of the Paladin (but unlike the Paladin, the Crusader class can be used to make a character of any alignment), and Warblade, which parallels the pure martial prowess of the Fighter. The third, the Swordsage, is most like a Monk in nature, but has more customizable features. Swordsages are best compared to the philosopher-swordsmen of the Wuxia film genre.
The Warblade was what the Fighter should have been. The current Fighter is just as effective, but the Warblade had so much more to offer as far as customization and was just as effective in combat. For anyone that wants to be a fighter... but doesn't like the fighter class. Check out the Tome of Battle... convert it to Pathfinder... and enjoy.
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Time for a public service thread summary:
1. OP posts that fighters suxxor if they can't stick their faceplate in their opponent's gizzard because the opponent happens to be airborne.
2. Dozens upon dozens of reasonable, rational, intelligent posters provide several variations on "get a bow", "use a potion", "buy some magic flying stuff" or "let the party caster fix it for you."
3. OP rejects every single suggestion based on the observation that solving the problem of flying does not, in fact, make the opponent land and allow the fighter to stick his faceplate in the opponent's gizzard.
4. repeat steps 2 - 3 for eternity.
There, now you can move on to more productive threads.
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Yanno, I'm not (by any stretch) a rules genius, but I think I have the solution.
Catapults.
The fighter can use the catapult to project missiles at a flying enemy, or--to address the OP's concerns, he can catapult HIMSELF at the flying enemy.
Just keep the catapult fully wound at all times, and push it before you. Take a 5-step move to get into the launchy part and kick out the lever. FWOOM! Instant, flying fighter.
Also, this thread makes me miss the Ultimate Equipment Monk threads. Weird.
@OP - I haven't read all the posts, but wouldn't it just be easier to carry a ranged weapon of some kind around?
Still doesn't address the problem of a burrowing creature though. Hopefully Paizo will fix the fighter and give him burrowing as a class feature in a later release.
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@OP - I haven't read all the posts, but wouldn't it just be easier to carry a ranged weapon of some kind around?
Still doesn't address the problem of a burrowing creature though. Hopefully Paizo will fix the fighter and give him burrowing as a class feature in a later release.
When you buy a Bow... get a shovel too. Fixed.
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1) Fighters cannot fly based off of their class skills.
This is true!
2) This in no way impedes their ability to kill flying creatures.
Also true!!
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Ehh it still seems a bit screwy that you can antagonize with a skill that's meant to bring people closer together but I wait to see a player do something funny with it. As for the intimidate it's ehh, will admit it seems a bit more like a bard ability then a free wheeling feat but I think it could be used without getting too locked up.Antagonize, as written, is a frequently banned feat for many home groups for a lot of reasons. At least regarding the Intimidate portion of the feat. Rewiring it so that the Intimidate action has the same effect as the Diplomacy action tends to make it more palatable for a lot of folks.
Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
Yeah, I really don't feel the Diplomacy check either. That's why, if I had to have the feat stick around in some form, I'd just use the intimidate skill in its place for that section of the feat while ditching the Intimidate portion entirely.
As for the main topic of the thread, playing barbarian. Took out a small flying major enemy with a starknife crit. Feels good, man.
1. Get time machine and potion of enlarge person.
2. Future you arrives out of time machine.
3. One of you drinks the potion, then throws the other at the flying creature.
4. ???
5. Profit.
Ehh it still seems a bit screwy that you can antagonize with a skill that's meant to bring people closer together but I wait to see a player do something funny with it. As for the intimidate it's ehh, will admit it seems a bit more like a bard ability then a free wheeling feat but I think it could be used without getting too locked up.Antagonize, as written, is a frequently banned feat for many home groups for a lot of reasons. At least regarding the Intimidate portion of the feat. Rewiring it so that the Intimidate action has the same effect as the Diplomacy action tends to make it more palatable for a lot of folks.
Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
Yeah, I really don't feel the Diplomacy check either. That's why, if I had to have the feat stick around in some form, I'd just use the intimidate skill in its place for that section of the feat while ditching the Intimidate portion entirely.
As for the main topic of the thread, playing barbarian. Took out a small flying major enemy with a starknife crit. Feels good, man.
I think using it with intimidate is like... Screaming and threatening. While diplomacy is more a carefully constructed insult, using all the social graces of the skill.
I am confused why this is a problem.
Last time I checked, there were usually (I daresay over 95% of the time) other party members to help him fly, or to somehow bring the flying beastie down, or do something in order to help him.
Or, you know, big magic bows. It might not be optimized to use a bow if you are a fighter who hasn't spent about 500 feats to be an archer, but you can still do it, and typically far better than most other 3/4 BAB classes.
I *KNOW* this will come as a heresy, and I will get flamed big time for it...but...here goes:
NOT EVERY CLASS NEEDS TO DO EVERYTHING PERFECTLY AND BE BEST AT EVERYTHING.
omgwtfwwjd?!?
I don't always make blanket "you are playing the game wrong" statements, but when I do, I piss everyone off.
Flame on my friends, flame on.
Yep, my rogues can't fly either.
The problem isn't a lack of flight, it is ensuring you have the means to combat flying foes effectively. Bring them down, then the fun starts.
Look Fighters are fine. They are more then fine. They are competitive as a DPS or a Tank or as a controller. That is obvious unless you are being argumentative(cough* cough*) or just don't have a good handle on the game.
Now as to the issue of being FUN. That is another story. ANY class can be fun if you have a good background and are willing to RP. However the Fighter class has less "out of the box" to help it stay interesting outside combat.
There is a class that mimics the Fighter and has all the customization and unique abilities that you could want. A class that adds a ton of abilities that can help both in and out of combat. And still has that "Fighter" feel.
In 3.5 they released a book that was both praised and hated.
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
The purpose of the book was to increase the viability of melee combatants in the D&D game to continue to be comparable to magic user characters into high-level play, by giving them versatile combat maneuvers and stances that can be expended as magic users expend spells.
Martial Adepts are the base classes in Tome of Battle. Two of the three classes parallel existing classes, but gain different class features, as well as access to the powerful techniques of the Sublime Way: Crusader, which parallels the religious strictures of the Paladin (but unlike the Paladin, the Crusader class can be used to make a character of any alignment), and Warblade, which parallels the pure martial prowess of the Fighter. The third, the Swordsage, is most like a Monk in nature, but has more customizable features. Swordsages are best compared to the philosopher-swordsmen of the Wuxia film genre.
The Warblade was what the Fighter should have been. The current Fighter is just as effective, but the Warblade had so much more to offer as far as customization and was just as effective in combat. For anyone that wants to be a fighter... but doesn't like the fighter class. Check out the Tome of Battle... convert it to Pathfinder... and enjoy.
Honestly they barely need any conversion. In a game with a synthesist for instance, I'd hardly be worried about what a TOB class can do.
The problem lies in the fact that the fighter is principally mundane. He resides in the realm close to reality. And alot of people LIKE it that way. They dont want their fighter to be a wuxia film. They want Boromir, or Conan. So the fighter remains the class with the fewest 'fantasy' toys to play with. Honestly if you are worried about the fighter not having the utilitarian abilities like flight that magic generally prvides, replace the fighter in your game with the warblade and move on. But I dont think PAIZO will ever do that,because a chunk of their fanbase like that the fighter is the guy with the sharp metal thing. And lets be fair, if you dont want a magicy character you have a limited selection.
Edit:
By the way, so long as you are ok with 3rd party material, the OP's statement is incorrect. If all thats important is that there be an option of some sort, problem solved thanks to the fine folks at Super Genius Games. Look up the Super Genius archetype Products.
These are a set of abilities that can be added to ANY class in exchange for standard sets of abilities from the class. Of them, in arcane archetypes you can use hedge wizard to eventually give your fighter the ability to cast fly all by himself, or in martial archetypes, the Yuxia Archetype turns you into said Wushu film Fighter with an option to be able to fly at I believe 8th level.
Time for a public service thread summary:
1. OP posts that fighters suxxor if they can't stick their faceplate in their opponent's gizzard because the opponent happens to be airborne.
2. Dozens upon dozens of reasonable, rational, intelligent posters provide several variations on "get a bow", "use a potion", "buy some magic flying stuff" or "let the party caster fix it for you."
3. OP rejects every single suggestion based on the observation that solving the problem of flying does not, in fact, make the opponent land and allow the fighter to stick his faceplate in the opponent's gizzard.
4. repeat steps 2 - 3 for eternity.
There, now you can move on to more productive threads.
SPARKLE-MOUF DAGRON IGNORE BROX HUMOR DERAIL POST. SPARKLE-MOUF DAGRON WILL LERN AIROR OF HIS WAYS.
@Bomanz: you win this round sir. I shall return! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Ok because i apparently have no life, and or find the OPs argument quite incoherent, i decided to go through all the CR 10 mobs to see how many flying creatures we have and how dangerous they are.
There was 51 creatures on this page "https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/-bestiary-by-challeng e-rating/-bestiary-cr-9-10" with a CR 10 and 36 of them cannot fly. Out of the 15 that can actually fly only 10 of them can actually do any damage while staying out of melee. These creatures are : Cuatl, Dragons (Red, White, Forest, Silver, Crystal, Umbral), Garipan, Zuishin, Protean Imentesh.
And out of these 10 monsters, 2 of them (Cuatl, Zuishin) actually cant do any damage to you as long as you carry a tower shield. This means that 8 out of 51 monsters are dangerous flying creatures that our fighter actually has problems with. Now here comes the fun part all the dragons and the Garipan has to be within 40 feet of the fighter to be able to use their breath weapon (because its cones) and doing 10d6 (ref for half) dam each round or less. Which means that the fighter, even if he barely has any ranged feats but just carry around a coupple of dragon bane arrows, should be able to out damage or atleast deal almost as much damage as that one creature, even though he is completely out of his element.
Ofcourse he could also just use a tanglefoot bag, a net, a hook or anything else that he can easily throw 40 feet to drag the dumb dragon down so he can deal with it, but that would almost be the smart thing to do so lets forget that.
So according to the bestiary only 8/51 or 16 % of the monsters are actually a problem when they fly, and only 1/51 or 2 % (the Protean Imentesh) is actually something where he would need to be able to fly to beat, as all the rest can either be avoided with a tower shield, or hooked/grabbed/netted when they move close enough to attack.
Ofcourse the dragons could also use flyby attack, but the fighter should win that fight so much if he just readies his attack for it. So honestly i cant see why fighters or any class for that matter needs to fly in all or even most fights, and burning 350 gp in 16% of the fights is really nothing at that level anyway if you dont want to hook or net the dragon.
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For any fighter players who ramp up the melee build, neglect or even refuse to invest in anything to deal with enemies at range including flying creatures, I have one answer:
Sucks to be you.
You made your bed so now you get to lie in it.
I guess that was two answers. Consider it a bonus.
(I don’t know why I’m posting – probably a waste of good words – I think non-flying fighters are a feature not a bug)
I don’t think you can compare a melee-only fighter with the (flying) monsters straight out of the manual in an arena-like setting:
- as others have shown, many flying creatures do prefer melee combat as well (snatch, flyby attack)
- in game, the flying creatures will usually be encountered in a specific setting (demons with wings can be encountered on small bridges & there is not always a wizard available to shout “thou shall not pass”).
So: in game there will be plenty of opportunities for a melee-only fighter to do what he does best even against flying creatures. If he still finds himself at a disadvantage:
- think, use tactics: if you cannot reach the flying creature, let it come to you (hide, run for cover, play dead) (*)
- as others pointed out, use a ranged weapon (better some damage than nothing at all & fighting with a bow is still fighting in my book) (*)
(*) granted, this will take longer than with the full melee attack, but I didn’t think this game was about who kills the most in the shortest time (but YMMV).
Basically, all characters/concepts are sometimes at a disadvantage (and some perhaps more than others) in specific encounters in game/campaign (as my player’s fire-themed sorcerer can attest when against high SR, fire immune monsters), but I find these often make the best sessions.
Hagor
Also, Fighters Can't Have Nice Things.
Seriously though, this was a joke post that got out of control, right?
And everyone's in on it except the OP? I don't think so -- I honestly read it as a bunch of people telling each other that fighters are SUPPOSED to suck at high levels, and that if you don't allocate all of your feats and wealth exactly perfectly just to remain barely relevant as your friend the wizard becomes a god, then you're obviously badwrongfun.
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Seriously though, this was a joke post that got out of control, right?And everyone's in on it except the OP? I don't think so -- I honestly read it as a bunch of people telling each other that fighters are SUPPOSED to suck at high levels, and that if you don't allocate all of your feats and wealth exactly perfectly just to remain barely relevant as your friend the wizard becomes a god, then you're obviously badwrongfun.
Or... you know... they get longbow proficiency for a reason.
Or Flyby attack has an AoO. Or ready a damn action.
That last one is my favorite because it's like... "role playing" or something.
Or... you know... they get longbow proficiency for a reason.
Longbows are super-effective against Balors... if you invest all your feats and wealth into archery. At high levels, fighters can't keep up in melee and archery both, even with their extra feats (not so much because feats occur in chains instead of scaling, which is bad enough, but because even the chains are nowehere near as good as simple spells). Under the RAW, it's nearly impossible to bring down a winged flyer unless you're an archery specialist, and it's impossoble to bring down an opponent who's using magical flight (which pretty much all villains other than balors, dragons, and pit fiends do at upper levels of play). That's just how the game works.
And that doesn't even touch on environmental challenges that DON'T involve combat, in which the fighter's bow is useless anyway. But, yeah, I know, they're called "fighters" -- they're not supposed to have actual rules support for doing anything else, unless it can be easily accomplished with a couple of skill points.
Look, EL, I like you and all, but this is one topic on which you won't really sway me... not even with sarcasm.
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Longbows are super-effective against Balors... if you invest all your feats and wealth into archery.
Are we talking about a lonely fighter here? I've never seen a 20th level fighter with no recourse to flight, or without the pile of cash needed for that bow. Call me crazy but 20 levels of gameplay tends to work out these kinks... usually by 13th or so.
And in the weird situation where it is a lone fighter vs a balor, he should probably be higher than level 20, don't you think? And while all the previous points hold, this is what makes 20th level a really bad place to analyze the performance of the rules.
At high levels, fighters can't keep up in melee and archery both, even with their extra feats (not so much because feats occur in chains instead of scaling, which is bad enough, but because even the chains are nowehere near as good as simple spells).
I'm not sure I believe that statement. I mean, you're offering that at "higher levels", are you talking 13th+? Because my players are flying by then. Always. They usually have a round or two to wind up, unless they're setting an ambush. Is this a problem? Or is the opposite a problem. I am confused.
Under the RAW, it's nearly impossible to bring down a winged flyer unless you're an archery specialist, and it's impossoble to bring down an opponent who's using magical flight (which pretty much all villains other than balors, dragons, and pit fiends do at upper levels of play). That's just how the game works.
Okay, the Fly skill was supposed to fix this (so sayeth the beta test blog) but never panned out. It is impossible to shoot things down. And yet, my game hasn't fallen apart.
Even if my game consisted entirely of non-casters, it would not fall apart. My players would seek out the solutions to these problems, and the game gives them enough money to make it work. Seriously, if you're going to fight these things, specialize in bows, or find a way to fly. A wizard has to learn fly. He damn well better not complain about not flying if he never learns the damn spell.
I'm sorry Kirth, but here, I think you're letting your 3.5 expertise and your personal preference for magic balance cloud your analysis. Much respect though, but I disagree.
Look, EL, I like you and all, but this is one topic on which you won't really sway me... not even with sarcasm.
I am glad of the mutual respect!
I just don't actually see these earthbound fighters, in practice. Flying is pretty accessible at the levels you need it, even for non-casters.
Maybe this is subjective gameplay. Maybe some people ban potions of fly or something, could be.
Subjectivity happens all the damn time up here.
I'm sorry Kirth, but here, I think you're letting your 3.5 expertise and your personal preference for magic balance cloud your analysis. Much respect though, but I disagree.
I'll be the first to admit that those things color my analysis, especially insofar as it leads me to prefer a game a lot further from 3.5 in some areas than the baby steps that Pathfinder took. To my mind, though, it's OK to disagree as to what's an appropriate balance point... something that I think got lost sometime around maybe the second post on this thread.
EL, obviously your game hasn't fallen apart, but that doesn't mean the situation perforce has to be preferable for everyone playing. Given that the situation is what it is, I'll concede that the OP would have been a lot better off placing this thread in the "Suggestions/Homebrew" section rather than the "General Discussion" section... but still, I'm not sure he deserves the sheer number of pages of one-sided, condescending abuse that have been heaped on him for having a preference different from the mainstream.
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Flying is pretty accessible at the levels you need it, even for non-casters.
Sure -- but again, it comes down to where you draw that balance point. Not everyone likes a game in which they're constantly reminded how they're useless without the wizard handing them magic goodies, when the reverse really isn't anywhere near as true.
(But again, preferences outside the mainstream, I've learned from experience, should never be posted under "general discussion" here, because of the unspoken baseline assumption of General Discussion that the existing rules are perfect.)
Anyway, as I posted above, I kind of like earthbound fighters -- but making them work requires a tweak to the Fly skill, and that again puts us into Suggestions/Homebrew thread territory.
Tangle bolt
Crossbow
226 gold
/thread
Also, Fighters Can't Have Nice Things.
Actually this thread is a new paradigm!
"Fighters should refuse to have nice things, because it takes away their spotlight takes away their purity"
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Or... you know... they get longbow proficiency for a reason.Longbows are super-effective against Balors... if you invest all your feats and wealth into archery. At high levels, fighters can't keep up in melee and archery both, even with their extra feats (not so much because feats occur in chains instead of scaling, which is bad enough, but because even the chains are nowehere near as good as simple spells). Under the RAW, it's nearly impossible to bring down a winged flyer unless you're an archery specialist, and it's impossoble to bring down an opponent who's using magical flight (which pretty much all villains other than balors, dragons, and pit fiends do at upper levels of play). That's just how the game works.
And that doesn't even touch on environmental challenges that DON'T involve combat, in which the fighter's bow is useless anyway. But, yeah, I know, they're called "fighters" -- they're not supposed to have actual rules support for doing anything else, unless it can be easily accomplished with a couple of skill points.
Look, EL, I like you and all, but this is one topic on which you won't really sway me... not even with sarcasm.
Kirth, I respect you and all, but you've missed the mark on this thread by about an AU.
This is NOT a "Fighters can't have nice things" thread. This is one single person making patently false statements and oodles of people refuting those statements, only to be met by "nuh-uh".
OP's assertion is that it is impossible for Fighters to melee greater than 50% of all of the monsters in the game because they fly and he doesn't. This is provably untrue on the surface (fewer than 50% of the monsters in the game fly, and of those that do fly, almost everything outside of dragons cannot kill an appropriately-leveled Fighter without engaging it in melee combat). It is also a straw man, because OP refuses to accept that Fighters can actually hit things with ranged attacks unless they are full-on archer spec. You, unfortunately, also seem to fall into this extremely strange misconception.
The difference in damage between a full archer spec Fighter and a smart Fighter who took bows as their second weapon group and has one or two supporting feats is not large. "Longbows are super-effective against Balors ... if [implied only if] you invest all your feats and wealth into archery" is just straight-up false. Balors cannot kill a Fighter from range. They just can't. They have one fire storm and one implosion per day. That won't kill a Fighter that has any business fighting a Balor. Even a completely melee-focused Fighter that had the insight to buy a +3 evil outsider bane composite longbow (not a stretch purchase, as evil outsiders are by far the most common single bane-capable creature type past about 10th level) will positively wreck the Balor.
And, while I'm at it, your "fix" to the Fly skill is deeply, tragically flawed. It basically reads "You cannot fly in combat, even if you've taken full ranks in Fly and have a racial bonus". Let's take a Cauchemar Nightmare for example. CR 11, Fly +19. A level 9 Wizard casts a 2nd level spell, scorching ray. The Cauchemar now has to make, on average, two Fly checks against DC 48. It cannot make those checks. Its average roll is 30, so it falls 40 feet, potentially taking another 7 damage on top of the 28 it's already taken from a spell 3 levels under the Wizard's highest level and is already exceedingly powerful even after Paizo directly nerfed it from 3.5. And now all the rest of the party gets to take their shots at it, forcing it to make even more checks it can't possibly succeed on (seriously, 14 damage is nothing at level 9).
Seriously, 20 + twice damage? What were you thinking? There are very, very few things in the game that can reliably make that check. If you're going to do twice damage, the base needs to be 5 or 10 at the absolute highest. Even with 20 + base damage, the Cauchemar still has a solid 20% chance to fail the check from quite low damage; at 10 + twice damage, it's a 40% chance. If it were me, I wouldn't even touch double damage on a DC for anything. Damage advances way, way faster than any skill check.
Even ignoring the silly-high DC, it still presents a load of problems. Does the fall provoke AOOs? Since it's an uncontrolled fall, does a rider have to make a Ride check to stay on? Why does this work against creatures using magical flight (like the Cauchemar example)? Why does this system, purportedly designed to help martial characters, actually benefit mages the most (mages have the longest effective range in the game and the highest single-source damage in the game)?
Honestly, I really think you need to take a step back and actually examine the situation. You're jumping at shadows.
EDIT: I'm with you on "Fighters can't do anything but fight", but that's a completely different thread and has nothing to do with this one.
I find it disappointing that threads like that parody thread get locked on these forums. I think humor is great and parody is a very appropriate response to a topic as inherently absurd as this one. I don't mean that as a put-down, OP, I think absurdity is great too and I have no problem with your thread.
it's been said a lot. but just buy a bow, don't neglect dexterity, and take deadly aim.
with a 16 base strength, 14 base dexterity and a belt of physical perfection +2, weapon training bows, deadly aim, and weapon focus with a +2 composite bow with a +4 strength bonus. you have the following
10(Bab) +3 (Dex) -3 (Deadly aim) +2 (enhancement)+1 (Weapon Training) for +13/8 for 1d8+4 (strength) +6 (Deadly aim) +1 (Weapon Training) +2 (enhancement) for 1d8+13
+13/8 for 1d8+13 (with deadly aim). blanched arrows are cheap, 1 blanch covers 10 arrows.
this is an investment of 24,700 gold before factoring ammunition and well within a 62,000 budget. get it crafted by the party caster and it's only 12,700.
this can be accomplished with a 15 point buy without applying race selection. with a higher point buy or balanced race selection, an 18 base strength or even a 16 base dexterity is affordable. maybe both.
Shuriken, he doesn't want a bow, he wants to fly.
Shuriken, he doesn't want a bow, he wants to fly.
winged boots are 16,000 gold pieces for 3 uses per day. you just don't get to benefit from boots of speed yet. but you get to fly for 3 fights a day and it's a free action to activate the boots. after a week of adventure, they pay themselves off compared to potion addiction.
a potion of fly is 750 gold pieces and lasts 1 encounter. this is nice in emergencies if you don't have winged boots yet. the cost is insignificant at 10th level. a scroll of fly is 375 but requires investment in UMD. the extra gold costs drastically less than the skill point investment in terms of resources.
I really don't see the huge problem. My BARD has feats to help him do adequate damage at range.
My next fighter is going to be a vanilla one that gets Whirlwind Attack at 4, Lunge at 6 and Vital Strike at 7. At levels 5,8,9 he will take point blank shot, rapid shot and deadly aim to be more than adequate at range. If he gets stuff to get his dex to 17, he will also take manyshot. He is a FIGHTER for Puck's sake. He can spare the feats. Also, with a belt full of potions of enlarge, combined with lunge, he can reach most anything that does not have the option to retreat to the sky.
It's like nobody gets the fact that a fighter can survive dual-specialization. Without taking specialization.
Disclaimer: This fighter works very well at my table because most people who play casters in my group are smart people that understand that Haste is a broke-arse spell that is ten times better than any other lv3 spell, since it does 50-150 damage per round over 1rd/lv (every attack that hits for the rest of the party)
I've not read the middle of the thread but I have to ask Wraithstrike's question - Is this actually an issue in actual play?
I've played quite a bit of, among other editions, d20 D&D and the fighter not being able to get to the fight happens only very occasionally - and normally is satisfactorily covered by bows, potions or allies - without impacting on the players enjoyment of the game. When it's not it's often an encounter when you think that 'the plot' expected the flyer to escape.
Want to feel useless? Play an enchanter wizard in the first parts of Council of Thieves - that said I still had fun playing the character and of course later on the enchanter was very powerful.
But you know what? You accept that being very powerful in some situations (which fighters certainly are) are means you'll be weaker in others - all characters face this, it's just part of the game.
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Well, since this is the civil discussion in the thread...
Flying is pretty accessible at the levels you need it, even for non-casters.
Sure -- but again, it comes down to where you draw that balance point. Not everyone likes a game in which they're constantly reminded how they're useless without the wizard handing them magic goodies, when the reverse really isn't anywhere near as true.
Well, sometimes you pry the magic goodies from the hands of a dead wizard. I think everyone can support that!
But the implicit setting of Pathfinder has more magic than that. Magic is a commodity, magic items are durable goods. I can't build a car myself, but I know that if I need to move at about 60mph for an extended period, I need to buy a car. Does that make me the stooge of the car companies? Yes, sort of, but if your implicit setting is magic-rich enough, the relationship is less obviously one-sided.
I think these strong opinions on non-casters' access to magic tend to crop up in games that tweak the implicit magic level. Of course this happens. The implicit magic level is one of the most often-tweaked things, because most people want to play in settings that resemble fantasy fiction, not settings that resemble fantasy computer games.
(But again, preferences outside the mainstream, I've learned from experience, should never be posted under "general discussion" here, because of the unspoken baseline assumption of General Discussion that the existing rules are perfect.)
Be fair now. Very few people think the RAW is perfect. But is is the logical point of reference for all of the these discussions. I can't contribute meaningfully to a conversation about Kirthfinder because it is too much of a departure from what I know, and what everyone else here knows.
Different people champion different parts of the RAW, and that leads to a feeling that this place is rife with fanboys who love every part of it. That's not the truth though.
The RAW, even a deeply flawed RAW, is necessary so that we're not all constantly comparing apples to oranges. And since different flaws affect different people, no "fix" is ever going to give us a perfect RAW. You'll no sooner "fix the fighter" than people who liked the old fighter will be disappointed.
Anyway, as I posted above, I kind of like earthbound fighters -- but making them work requires a tweak to the Fly skill, and that again puts us into Suggestions/Homebrew thread territory.
I will concede that the "shoot someone down" rules for the Fly skill are a total failure, at least in terms of what was promised. The Fly Skill, though, is an improvement over 3.5, IMO. That DC just needs to be better scaled.
I have played in numerous epic-level games, with at least one Fighter in the party each time, and they were never useless. Even against theory-crafters favorite monster, the Balor. Hell, one game in Eberron, we fought a small army of evil outsiders, with at least 2 Balors in attendance. The Fighters had a field day and kicked much tail.
And by the gods, some of the monsters were flying.
If people spent half as much time actually playing as they do theory-crafting, these boards would be empty.
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If people spent half as much time actually playing as they do theory-crafting, these boards would be empty.
I hope not! That implies that all that gets done here is Theorycrafting.
I'd hate to lose the advice, product discussion, homebrew adventure content and house rules. And even a bit of theorycraft, they're not always wrong, y'know.
If people spent half as much time actually playing as they do theory-crafting, these boards would be empty.I hope not! That implies that all that gets done here is Theorycrafting.
I'd hate to lose the advice, product discussion, homebrew adventure content and house rules. And even a bit of theorycraft, they're not always wrong, y'know.
Okay, I'll reword it to "these boards would be less populated." Conversely, I think a lot more would get done. More actual game discussion, fewer strawman doomsday threads.
