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No rogue in party! What does one do?


Advice

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Hey there!

Turns out one of our 5 players participating in our carrion crown adventure may not be able to join us, so now there are four of us. A sorcerer, a Paladin, a Cleric, and a Fighter.

To pick up some of the slack, I'm taking a trait that gives me perception - but the party may not be able to take "disable device" -- I am asking the forum here if they know of any other threads or resources on how to do without (or at least do better without) the advantage of a rogue.

Items to get as fast as possible, tools not to go without, any strategies, articles, threads or resources that might help us to handle rogue situations better without resorting to a Rogue NPC added to the party.

So to any of you inclined, share your wisdom and wits!

Silver Crusade

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sorcerer going arcane route for a familiar?

skeleton key for chance at locks


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Have the sorcerer play sage/seeker archetype.

Sage allows the sorcerer to cast with intelligence, so instantly the sorcerer will have nearly as many skills points as a rogue.

Seeker is an archetype that can be mixed with sage and now you get trapfinding. With traits and the feat additional traits you can nab all the rogue's class skills.

And the cherry on top, it still has 9 levels of spell casting.

Rogue is an obsolete class.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards Subscriber

Paladin or Cleric would be the best choices in my opinion. Cleric will get better at Perception and Paladin would have good HP and saves. You can pick up DD and Per as class skills with the correct traits if your group uses those. Other then that the only thing you would have an issue with are magical traps.

As you have no one that is INT based the skill points could be a problem. You may just have to have the Paladin opening everything and then the cleric gets wands/scrolls/spells to deal with failed save issues.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wand of Summon Monster I! Even the in-game Pathfinder Society recommends it.


The seeker archetype for the sorceror:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---so rcerer-archetypes/seeker-sorcerer

There might be a cleric domain that's useful, but I can't recall one off the top of my head...

Also Kobold bloodline for the sorceror


7 people marked this as a favorite.

-Inside of every problem is a solution involving high explosives.

-Metal rusts, wood burns, and Stone is surprisingly easy to reshape.

-Fabricate doesn't actually care what your "raw materials" USED to be as long as they weren't alive or enchanted during the casting.

-Mechanical traps don't care if a body is living and walked in or dead and tossed in.

-Magical traps don't care if a target is summoned to this plane or lived here its whole life.

-The difference between a locked chest full of loot and the loot itself is often a handsaw and patience.

-Intricate and complex mechanical devices may be hard to finagle and manipulate, but are very easy to gum up with glue.

-If you can't bring a locksmith to the lock, sometimes you can bring the lock to a locksmith.

-RAW doesn't say anything about a triple-enchanted supertrapped explode-if-opened wrong chest full of Incredibly Fragile Desirables being immune to the Animate Objects spell.

-When stealth is key, a Silence spell is golden.


You take archetypes. It's really pretty easy or you find a ring of evasion/class ability for evasion and facecheck the traps and move along.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

When did needing a Rogue become a thing again?

Sczarni

Have high wisdom character take "wisdom in the flesh" trait and then use it with disable device. No rogue necessary.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Daryl MacLeod wrote:
Have high wisdom character take "wisdom in the flesh" trait and then use it with disable device. No rogue necessary.

This is even more true with the Find Traps spell.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.


Somebody can take a 1 level Ranger (Trapper) dip, 2 levels if they're interested in the BAB and bonus feat. It would actually be a good level for the Fighter.

Honestly, you should just sort of smile and nod about the Rogue being gone.

Cheliax

No trapfinding? Summon things.
No perception? Put skill ranks into perception.
No lockpicking? Give the fighter a portable ram.


boldstar wrote:
Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.

Just check out the seeker and sage archetypes for the sorcerer. One archetype basically gives the sorcerer like 6-7 skills per level. The other archetype grants disable device as a class skill and ability to use the skill to disable magical traps and grants a bonus to perception and disable device checks = 1/2 sorcerer levels.

I mean seriously a full 9 spell level arcane caster with nearly as many skill points (can eventually get more skill points because it is their casting stat) and with the same bonuses at trap finding and trap disabling as a rogue. How can anyone with a straight face say that the rogue is not obsolete?

You can even use traits to pick up all rogue class skills the sorcerer is missing.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
boldstar wrote:
Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.

It is not so much "obsolete", as it is no longer a "must have" for a party.

With so many archetypes, the only reason to play a rogue, is because you want to, not because your party needs it.

I have been playing for 16 years, and I am actually glad there are less "must have" classes. The opposite opinion is true for others, but not me.


Gignere wrote:


Just check out the seeker and sage archetypes for the sorcerer. One archetype basically gives the sorcerer like 6-7 skills per level. The other archetype grants disable device as a class skill and ability to use the skill to disable magical traps and grants a bonus to perception and disable device checks = 1/2 sorcerer levels.

I mean seriously a full 9 spell level arcane caster with nearly as many skill points (can eventually get more skill points because it is their casting stat) and with the same bonuses at trap finding and trap disabling as a rogue. How can anyone with a straight face say that the rogue is not obsolete?

You can even use traits to pick up all rogue class skills the sorcerer is missing.

Just as a point I would hate being that sorcerer. Squishy caster taking point in dangerous dungeons .... yeah no thanks. I'd rather go with the 1 level dip into Trapper ranger as a melee or the Bard archetype with trapfinding if there was a bard.

Silver Crusade

have the sorcerer use open/close to open things which may be trapped or use mage hand to move things which may be trapped

Shadow Lodge

Use you r two traits to get perception and disable device as class skills and you're good.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

An Inquisitor can make a sweet rogue as well.


Honestly in my experience the best Rogue is one which is multiclassing into Fighter which is truly sad imo but works very very well.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
When did needing a Rogue become a thing again?

+1, you can get by just fine without a rogue. Don't worry about any special archetypes and instead stick to whatever your original plan was for your character. There are some excellent suggestions in the posts above to get around this little snag without getting drastic, so just view it as another challenge to overcome.

Cheliax

How about a barbarian 'rogue'? He disables traps by running into them and having enough hit points to not die.


Two simple tools / weapons (okay, maybe not so simple, some cost involved here).

Adamantine Crowbar.
Adamantine Pick.


gnomersy wrote:
Gignere wrote:


Just check out the seeker and sage archetypes for the sorcerer. One archetype basically gives the sorcerer like 6-7 skills per level. The other archetype grants disable device as a class skill and ability to use the skill to disable magical traps and grants a bonus to perception and disable device checks = 1/2 sorcerer levels.

I mean seriously a full 9 spell level arcane caster with nearly as many skill points (can eventually get more skill points because it is their casting stat) and with the same bonuses at trap finding and trap disabling as a rogue. How can anyone with a straight face say that the rogue is not obsolete?

You can even use traits to pick up all rogue class skills the sorcerer is missing.

Just as a point I would hate being that sorcerer. Squishy caster taking point in dangerous dungeons .... yeah no thanks. I'd rather go with the 1 level dip into Trapper ranger as a melee or the Bard archetype with trapfinding if there was a bard.

Take false life as a spell known, and eventually upgrade it to greater false life. You probably will have higher hit points than the rogue.

Edit: The best thing about getting those two spells as a sorcerer is that you can recast every time all the temp hps are gone.


boldstar wrote:
Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.

If I had to guess, I would say it is because spells and archetypes can snipe most of their "only rogues do this" skills, and there haven't been many power-builds or Totally Sweet Mega-Awesome Classes/skills/upgrades in the splatbooks that build off of rogue.

Also I get the impression a lot of adventures/DMs are being stingy with traps. Maybe that's just my imagination.


Gignere wrote:

Take false life as a spell known, and eventually upgrade it to greater false life. You probably will have higher hit points than the rogue.

It's only 1hr/lvl so if you do more than say 3 hours of adventuring per day I hardly see the point.

Also Rogues can technically take false life as well not to mention they have drastically better AC and Ref saves than your average caster.


gnomersy wrote:
Gignere wrote:

Take false life as a spell known, and eventually upgrade it to greater false life. You probably will have higher hit points than the rogue.

It's only 1hr/lvl so if you do more than say 3 hours of adventuring per day I hardly see the point.

Also Rogues can technically take false life as well not to mention they have drastically better AC and Ref saves than your average caster.

You do know that eventually that 1hr/lvl buffs become all day buffs for full casters.

As to the drastically better AC prove it. At low levels a sorcerer can easily start with 14 dex, add in mage armor and shield, that is 20 AC already. Most rogues wouldn't even be able to get close to that at low levels.

Yes rogues has better reflex saves, but most stuff requiring reflex saves doesn't auto kill you and also I thought we were trying to find and disable traps not trigger them. Sorcerers has better will saves, you know about half the save or suck and dies, so in this area they are about equal.

At higher levels when rogues could wear magical armor. Sorcerers can be invisibled, flying, mirror imaged, blurred, mage armored, and false lifed. You are going to say a rogue can UMD all that too yes, if he had unlimited gold. But rogues usually don't have unlimited gold.


boldstar wrote:
Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.

This a Good Thing

"Who wants to play the healer?" *groan*

"Who wants to play the rogue" *groan*

Not forcing someone to 'have' to play a class can only be a good thing.

----

You only need perception to see traps. They can mostly be sprung safely with a little thought which is a lot more fun that "I roll disable device".


Gignere wrote:


You do know that eventually that 1hr/lvl buffs become all day buffs for full casters.

As to the drastically better AC prove it. At low levels a sorcerer can easily start with 14 dex, add in mage armor and shield, that is 20 AC already. Most rogues wouldn't even be able to get close to that at low levels.

Yes rogues has better reflex saves, but most stuff requiring reflex saves doesn't auto kill you and also I thought we were trying to find and disable traps not trigger them. Sorcerers has better will saves, you know about half the save or suck and dies, so in this area they are about equal.

At higher levels when rogues could wear magical armor. Sorcerers can be invisibled, flying, mirror imaged, blurred, mage armored, and false lifed. You are going to say a rogue can UMD all that too yes, if he had unlimited gold. But rogues usually don't have unlimited gold.

Yeah at somewhere between 12th and 16th level an hr per day becomes full day for an average adventurer so maybe by the time the game ends other than that I don't see anything in the rules to say that it works differently.

Most traps aren't save or suck or save or dies so that's not really relevant to trapfinding or scouting for the most part you're most likely going to eat Ref saves if you fail to find a trap. Also the assumption that you will always succeed at finding and disarming traps is just outright wrong any DM roughly ever is going to have you playing versus fairly competitive trap DCs which means you are going to fail them at least some of the time.

As for Sorc AC you're using two spells and one with a duration so short you have to actually cast it in combat to get use out of it to make your point soooo yeah.

On the other hand even an incompetent bumbling rogue has a Dex of 14 at level 1 and a Chain shirt by level 2 which nets him a minimum of 16 AC all day long without any expenditure of resources. Furthermore a dex rogue would have a Dex of 18 and thus an AC of 18+ or more depending on feat choices.

Seriously if you're using all those spells on protecting yourself you're never going to get anything done in combat RD had a big thread about why his fellow players were pissed at him for doing exactly the same thing.


I grew up with a dm that got every new Grimstooth book as soon as it came out and giggled every time he tricked us into going into the Tomb of Horrors again (Kept changing the name, place...called it the Moorcockian Eternal Dungeon.) I know that the game has changed and the rogue is not as needed, but I remember when having two thieves were a must.


LOL. Need a Rogue?! Thats what hirelings are for. I once had a cleric who could do it all. Check for traps, unlock doors, disable device, he could even parachute.

Know how? Because I had access to every healing spell available.


BTW, the Tomb of Horrors makes for a wicked Gamma World dungeon.


I don’t know if you remember Labyrinth of Madness or not but it was a also easily a two rogue "dungeon".

It had a floor that randomly switched your mind with other PCs, and activated NPCs/Monsters on that level. Didn't matter how good you were, if you got switched the only way to get your body back was by finishing the floor and hoping that random chance put you back in. Completely detrimental.

Was printed towards the end of TSR's life and was definitely a PC killer. I don't I've ever seen anyone get through it legitimately.

If I’m not mistaken Tomb of Horrors is the same way. Fly up to a certain level meld into stone and start from the top right?


Wait... who is the stealth, infiltrator type? I know that the sorceror can do this, but he has limited resources and has to be able to do something in combat (blasting, battlefield control, and/or buffing). It seems as though the rest of the party is going to be encased in armor (unless the cleric isn't, but then you are asking the party healer to scout, which, in my experience, ends up with dead healers). I accept that find/remove traps and social skills can be covered, but the party composition looks off.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A properly built Inquisitor makes a better scout/sneak.


again.

hirlings. minions. cronies. cannon fodder. peasants make better rogues than you will ever and they don't know any better. nothing intimidate can't handle.


Gignere wrote:
gnomersy wrote:

...

Also Rogues can technically take false life as well not to mention they have drastically better AC and Ref saves than your average caster.

...

As to the drastically better AC prove it. At low levels a sorcerer can easily start with 14 dex, add in mage armor and shield, that is 20 AC already. Most rogues wouldn't even be able to get close to that at low levels.

Yes rogues has better reflex saves, but most stuff requiring reflex saves doesn't auto kill you and also I thought we were trying to find and disable traps not trigger them. Sorcerers has better will saves, you know about half the save or suck and dies, so in this area they are about equal.

At higher levels when rogues could wear magical armor. Sorcerers can be invisibled, flying, mirror imaged, blurred, mage armored, and false lifed. You are going to say a rogue can UMD all that too yes, if he had unlimited gold. But rogues usually don't have unlimited gold.

Come on. You're overstating your case.

At low levels if the sorcerer is casting mage armor and shield at every combat, what does she have left? And don't start on wands, cause the rogue can use them too.

For your higher level example -- at 9th level overland flight, mage armour, and false life last 9 hours, but those other spells are min/level durations. So you're casting the 3 hour/level spells 2 or 3 times a day and you're casting your other buffs every combat or two. You're still devoting a pile of casting to self defense.

{If you subscribe to the WBL guidelines (which I don't, but I suspect you do), the rogue effectively does have infinite money because the DM is obliged to replace his wands and potions as they're used up.}

So yeah, I'll grant you that a sorcerer can replace a rogue. I'll just wonder if he can do anything else.


Tomb of Horrors, if the players are not meta-gaming is nearly impossible. SPOILERS: Go ethereal or astral and there are devils waiting for you. Save or die trap after trap. Teleport devices that put you in a little room in the middle of the earth (not sure how deep or how far away you are from the dungeon) with no exit. Pit traps with 1st edition poison (almost always fatal). The demilich at the end is nearly unkillable because only a few things can hurt him and he is going to soul suck the paladin and wizard right away to take away your best threats. Hysterically cruel dungeon. By the way, you never know if the wall you are melding into is a real wall or a fake wall that will put you into another room with a death trap/four-armed gargoyle.
Oh yeah, the second edition Return to the Tomb of Horrors is even worse/better. The Tomb of Horrors is surrounded by an academy of necromancers and if you make it through the Tomb itself, there is a demiplane attached to the negative material plane that you have to go through. Tougher monsters and more death traps.
I am not sure I remember the Labrynth of Maddness. A lot of the dungeons merge in my mind. Sounds great. I will have to pull out my box of dungeons and look for it.


Yeah, maybe the inquisitor can do it, but isn't the composition of the party a fighter, sorc, paladin, and a cleric? Again, where is the stealthy character? Also, about hirelings: Don't know about you, but the gms I played with would be as happy as could be to let us have characters with limited loyalty into the dungeons with us, just to give us more enemies when we didn't treat them right ("We stand 50 feet away while the torch bearer opens the door.") If we hired a rogue hireling, my gms would make us split treasure and experience with the "skilled" NPC. Not saying it isn't a possibility, but I don't like to give an NPC that much control over the group's success.

Shadow Lodge

Boldstar wrote:
Again, where is the stealthy character

When/why is a stealthy character neccesary? How often is it even POSSIBLE to sneak anywhere with your party clanking along behind you, much less a good idea to do it?


If we hired a rogue hireling, my gms would make us split treasure and experience with the "skilled" NPC. Not saying it isn't a possibility, but I don't like to give an NPC that much control over the group's success.

An NPC to split treasure with? Nope. He dies once his usefulness is up. Or maybe just tied up and left depending on your alignment.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Boldstar wrote:
Again, where is the stealthy character

When/why is a stealthy character neccesary? How often is it even POSSIBLE to sneak anywhere with your party clanking along behind you, much less a good idea to do it?

When the party wants to and GM let them.

Knowing what's coming is a big help. However some GM's don't seem to like it and so its 'not allowed'.


Lightbulb wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Boldstar wrote:
Again, where is the stealthy character

When/why is a stealthy character neccesary? How often is it even POSSIBLE to sneak anywhere with your party clanking along behind you, much less a good idea to do it?

When the party wants to and GM let them.

Knowing what's coming is a big help. However some GM's don't seem to like it and so its 'not allowed'.

Roughly this. I mean technically speaking you can't sneak into a lit room but some GMs are more or less inclined to allow it rather than punishing you for doing it.


therealthom wrote:

Come on. You're overstating your case.

At low levels if the sorcerer is casting mage armor and shield at every combat, what does she have left? And don't start on wands, cause the rogue can use them too.

For your higher level example -- at 9th level overland flight, mage armour, and false life last 9 hours, but those other spells are min/level durations. So you're casting the 3 hour/level spells 2 or 3 times a day and you're casting your other buffs every combat or two. You're still devoting a pile of casting to self defense.

{If you subscribe to the WBL guidelines (which I don't, but I suspect you do), the rogue effectively does have infinite money because the DM is obliged to replace his wands and potions as they're used up.}

So yeah, I'll grant you that a sorcerer can replace a rogue. I'll just wonder if he can do anything else.

Scrolls of mage armor lasts 1 hour per level. Having the shield spell known is not a bad choice at low levels. Anyway I still don't see the rogue build with drastically better AC than the sorcerer.

Also the point of the thread was that the sorcerer can replace the rogue not that the sorcerer can replace the party. So just by replacing the rogue doesn't that mean the rogue is obsolete.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
boldstar wrote:
Maybe it is my age showing, but I am really hating hearing the "rogue is obsolete" talk. Not sure if it is true or not, just hate hearing it. What about one of the squishier characters dipping a level of rogue? That should cover in-class skills.

Because of that:

Ways to get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*

*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name

@OP
Here is the Aram Zey's focus spell.


g0atsticks wrote:
An NPC to split treasure with? Nope. He dies once his usefulness is up. Or maybe just tied up and left depending on your alignment.

So this doesn't modify or affect how difficult it is in future to get hirlings to help? Certainly would in my games after the PCs get a reputation of murdering / abandoning hirlings. Plus, I don't see any good-aligned PC doing this under any circumstances (so unless it is a neutral / evil party, not really realistic - and I am talking about the OP's party, not yours since we are trying to give him advice. Considering there is a Paladin, I don't see it happening).


Vicon wrote:

Hey there!

Turns out one of our 5 players participating in our carrion crown adventure may not be able to join us, so now there are four of us. A sorcerer, a Paladin, a Cleric, and a Fighter.

To pick up some of the slack, I'm taking a trait that gives me perception - but the party may not be able to take "disable device" -- I am asking the forum here if they know of any other threads or resources on how to do without (or at least do better without) the advantage of a rogue.

Items to get as fast as possible, tools not to go without, any strategies, articles, threads or resources that might help us to handle rogue situations better without resorting to a Rogue NPC added to the party.

So to any of you inclined, share your wisdom and wits!

Weep silently, for dere is only so much Brox to go around!


Thrall of Orcus wrote:
g0atsticks wrote:
An NPC to split treasure with? Nope. He dies once his usefulness is up. Or maybe just tied up and left depending on your alignment.

So this doesn't modify or affect how difficult it is in future to get hirlings to help? Certainly would in my games after the PCs get a reputation of murdering / abandoning hirlings. Plus, I don't see any good-aligned PC doing this under any circumstances (so unless it is a neutral / evil party, not really realistic - and I am talking about the OP's party, not yours since we are trying to give him advice. Considering there is a Paladin, I don't see it happening).

This. If a party makes a habit of screwing over NPCs, bad things have a tendency to happen to the party. Why would the OP's party want to make their lives harder. Not to mention a paladin in the group. I do agree that the party can probably handle most of the rogue's jobs... I just think they are going to run into problems, especially in parts 3,4,5,and 6 of this AP.


boldstar wrote:
Thrall of Orcus wrote:
g0atsticks wrote:
An NPC to split treasure with? Nope. He dies once his usefulness is up. Or maybe just tied up and left depending on your alignment.

So this doesn't modify or affect how difficult it is in future to get hirlings to help? Certainly would in my games after the PCs get a reputation of murdering / abandoning hirlings. Plus, I don't see any good-aligned PC doing this under any circumstances (so unless it is a neutral / evil party, not really realistic - and I am talking about the OP's party, not yours since we are trying to give him advice. Considering there is a Paladin, I don't see it happening).

This. If a party makes a habit of screwing over NPCs, bad things have a tendency to happen to the party. Why would the OP's party want to make their lives harder. Not to mention a paladin in the group. I do agree that the party can probably handle most of the rogue's jobs... I just think they are going to run into problems, especially in parts 3,4,5,and 6 of this AP.

"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die."

I think the larger complaint is not that the rogue is not necessary, but that the general consensus seems to be it is entirely obsolete and outclassed by everything else.

Something something balance.

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