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If the rest of the party aren't happy with having one character wield Suishen for the benefit of the party as a whole, then offer to sell it and split the proceeds more equitably.
If they don't like that idea, then they need to suck it up and accept that the best place for Suishen for now is in the hands of that character. That doesn't necessarily mean they get to keep it at the end of the day, so it doesn't exclude them from sharing in loot dispersal.
If an item is too expensive for a single character to keep but too important to sell a group could choose to 'lend' it to a given player but it is still a group possession to be fairly distributed at a later date.
- Gauss
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Everyone should just take what they need. Breakdowns like this occur when people begin to view loot as zero sum. Hell, breakdowns begin when people begin to call magical items 'loot.' It just sounds like your group has artifact envy.
If the wielder threw away Suishen and no one got to use him, then would the other party members give him their magic items to make up for it? It's absurd. The party isn't going to break up at the drop of a hat or swap characters or whatever that makes raid-guild-loot-rules equitable. Every member of the party is part of a machine that works together. Everyone should be ensured to take items that are useful to them at no negative or accrued debt to the rest of the party. If a +2 amulet of mighty fists was present in a treasure hoard, you should not be forced to have the group sell the amulet of mighty fists because otherwise they would lord its possession over you. If gaining a magical item from a hoard makes you somehow indebted to the other players, then it's wiser to sell the +2 amulet, split the gold and buy your own +2 amulet at a net loss of gold than 'pass up' on some 'rare drop' later on down the line, or be guilted out of many other minor upgrades. Like if they're going to do that you might as well f~!!ing run DKP.
Due to my general knowledge of how the game "magic item trade" process is, do your group discussions go like this:
Player 1: Alright, anybody want a +3 cloak of resistance?
Suishen's Wielder: I do.
Player 2: You have Suishen. I have a +2. I'll take it. Anyone want my +2?
Suishen's Wielder: I do.
Player 3: I'll take it, you have Suishen. I have a +1. Add that to the loot pile.
Suishen's Wielder: I can't have the +1?!
Player 1: Dude-- Suishen. Okay, I split the gold three ways.
Suishen's Wielder: There are four of us.
Player 1,2,3: YOU HAVE SUISHEN.
If it does, something's broken. Or someone's getting picked on.
Not everything has to be equal.
Who would be so extremely stupid as to sell Suishen, which is one of the best things the party can get throughout the campaign AND gives Ameikos claim to the throne even more legitimacy? That be really, REALLY stupid.
Do you guys have any ideas?
Don't distribute magic items by cash value. Manage magic items by function. Suishen is a magic weapon. Until everyone has one, the Suishen-wielder probably shouldn't get another one.
Everyone should just take what they need. Breakdowns like this occur when people begin to view loot as zero sum. Hell, breakdowns begin when people begin to call magical items 'loot.' It just sounds like your group has artifact envy.
If the wielder threw away Suishen and no one got to use him, then would the other party members give him their magic items to make up for it? It's absurd. The party isn't going to break up at the drop of a hat or swap characters or whatever that makes raid-guild-loot-rules equitable. Every member of the party is part of a machine that works together. Everyone should be ensured to take items that are useful to them at no negative or accrued debt to the rest of the party. If a +2 amulet of mighty fists was present in a treasure hoard, you should not be forced to have the group sell the amulet of mighty fists because otherwise they would lord its possession over you. If gaining a magical item from a hoard makes you somehow indebted to the other players, then it's wiser to sell the +2 amulet, split the gold and buy your own +2 amulet at a net loss of gold than 'pass up' on some 'rare drop' later on down the line, or be guilted out of many other minor upgrades. Like if they're going to do that you might as well f&~&ing run DKP.
Due to my general knowledge of how the game "magic item trade" process is, do your group discussions go like this:
Player 1: Alright, anybody want a +3 cloak of resistance?
Suishen's Wielder: I do.
Player 2: You have Suishen. I have a +2. I'll take it. Anyone want my +2?
Suishen's Wielder: I do.
Player 3: I'll take it, you have Suishen. I have a +1. Add that to the loot pile.
Suishen's Wielder: I can't have the +1?!
Player 1: Dude-- Suishen. Okay, I split the gold three ways.
Suishen's Wielder: There are four of us.
Player 1,2,3: YOU HAVE SUISHEN.If it does, something's broken. Or someone's getting picked on.
Not everything has to be equal.
I'm with Ice Titan on this one. Pathfinder is, at its core, a game about teamwork and cooperation. In many games I've played, loot wasn't always split equally, because some characters needed more than others. The party wizard, for example, is usually set once he gets his headband of vast intellect and protective items, and after that only really ever wants scrolls. The party fighter, on the other hand, usually ends up needing a lot more- magic armor, magic weapon(s), protective items, potions, etc.
The point here is that even though it's tempting to try and split loot "fairly," it's a bad idea to do so, because different characters (and players) have different needs. Moreover, because character wealth is often mostly measured in magic items, it would be even more difficult to create even splits without someone getting left out.
Loot and items should be divvied out based on necessity, not equality. My group often tries to place magic items with characters of the strongest fit, and sometimes the Suishen-wielder forgoes some of the treasure in favor of someone who doesn't have a totally sweet sword.
My advice would be to try and have the players talk it out. If they can't reach an amicable agreement, then there might be a little more going on here than just number-envy.
More fuel for the fire:
The problem is with the players, not the treasure.
The problem is the demand that everybody has to get an even share instead of putting what the party gets where it does the party as a whole the most good.
Your players are broken.
Start tweaking encounters so that they would be easier to defeat if they divded the treasure based on "best fit" instead of value. Punish them for being selfish and stupid. If you have to, TELL THEM you are doing so.
A little more strongly worded than I would have written it but I agree. Its not a race to see who has the most loot. Things tend to balance in the end regardless - wealth (and what can be bought with that wealth) should be distributed as needed and should end up in the best hands. And that includes the Sushien-wielder - he should only be whining if items he would clearly be the best choice for punitively going to someone else or if he's lacking in some way and the group refuses to share wealth with him to buy what he needs.
This is what happens when players begin to identify more with what their characters have than what their characters can do. Generally we use wealth to shore up our weakest links before anything, figuring the stronger they are the stronger the party is.
Interesting. In my group, they simply assumed that Suishen rightfully belongs to Ameiko. I didn't bat an eye, because it never even occurred to me otherwise.
Same here, I had to roleplay Ameiko to give weapon back to characters as Suishen wants to be used (and I know that they'll need its abilities in Hungry Storm).
I wish Nanithice good luck with his/hers group, that situation isn't nice one to have..
I think there's a fundamental divide between the "everyone gets the same GP value" groups and the "use what we find if we can" groups. Our group usually goes by the latter, though it depends on what the characters agree in character. However, there are pros and cons to both sides:
Even Share:
In an even share environment, someone figures out the total value of all items and then people take their cut between items and gold.
Pros
*If you're a monk with a kusari-gama or something as your weapon and no monk items are in the AP, you won't be constantly stuck with inferior gear due to what drops.
Cons
*You end up selling 50%+ of what you find since most PCs, even if they want an item, can't always afford to pay the full share of the item at the time. This is ameliorated somewhat if you allow a character to take debt to the party, but the "cool" non Big 6 loot is still very unlikely to stay around, since someone would have to pay full share for it.
*Because you sell so much of what you find for half, the team winds up with less GP value of treasure overall
*Unless you have provisos for splitsies, PCs who buy extremely group focused items have to pay for the items themself. And example in a 3.5 campaign was an Archivist who spent money on Beads of Karma and used them exclusively to cast hour and 10 minutes per level prebuffs on the rest of the team
*You have to decide what the items are "worth" compared to raw gold. If you pick 100% of market price, then gold is better for your share than taking anything but your best possible item, since you are just getting the item at the same price as at a shop. If you pick 50% of market price (since that's the price you were going to sell for anyway), then you've cancelled out the benefits of the Pro above, since a character who never keeps loot and always takes gold will wind up with half as much. When I have to play in even split groups, I usually try to suggest 75%.
Use What You Find:
In a use what you find environment, the party just gives out the items to characters as they are most useful. Generally if the item is eventually sold, the whole party still splits the proceeds evenly, and gold is still split evenly. Obviously, if you use gold to buy your own item and later sell it, you get all the money--only party items that were handed out are split when sold.
Pros
*Characters get the items that are good for them, period
*Less argument about party loans, counting exact gold pieces, etc can help foster camaraderie
*Party gets more total value of items than the other way, since less is sold
*Party is more likely to keep nonstandard items because no one character has to pay their cost
Cons
*If two characters have equal claim to an item, there can be arguments
*If one character has a weird type that uses bizarre items and never finds those items in the treasure, he will potentially be way behind on items
It's also possible that people are reacting to "what might happen." For example, I played a monk in a 3.5 game with an optimizer. His half-orc barbarian could do something like 10 times as much damage as me. Loot distribution was by party vote. The party voted to spend all the gold on items for the half-orc to make him hyper-optimized, and none on the monk since he was worthless. Needless to say, this created hard feelings. The next 3.5 game I played in, I was super anal about making sure the loot got split evenly as an over-reaction to the previous game.
That doesn't make these players' actions (or mine) right, but may help you understand where they're coming from, and ultimately how to solve this issue.
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*You end up selling 50%+ of what you find since most PCs, even if they want an item, can't always afford to pay the full share of the item at the time. This is ameliorated somewhat if you allow a character to take debt to the party, but the "cool" non Big 6 loot is still very unlikely to stay around, since someone would have to pay full share for it.
*Because you sell so much of what you find for half, the team winds up with less GP value of treasure overall
In my game, the players (I stay out of loot division, figuring it's an IC thing) do allow debt, but they also figure the value of an item at "selling value," not "buying value." This only makes sense, if the item would otherwise be sold and split anyway.
It hasn't really come up, but I suspect if two people really want the same item, they'd have a quick-and-dirty auction, starting at selling value, to see who will give more back into the group's treasure for the item.
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Another thing to consider though - we've only just started playing AP's as a group. In the past we've always run homebrew campaigns in which I get to choose the items the party comes across and in our campaigns there are no 'generic' magic items. I mean, we have certain societies and guilds which sell minor magical items (+1 amulets of magical armor, rings of fire resistance, etc.), but those are expensive (double normal gp cost) and fairly rare unless you 'know a guy'. We have no such thing as divine potions and divine wands or scrolls can only be used by adherents of that particular faith - divine power is not a thing that can be bottled up and sold off the shelf, nor is there an Olde Magic Mart in every city. Magic is magical, wondrous and rare and definitely not something to be traded, bought and sold like baseball cards.
My PC's certainly get magic items, but in Tolkien-esque fashion they are either stumbled across in the rare treasure horde (Bilbo's trolls) or given as gifts by patrons and admirers (the gift-giving at Lothlorien). As such there are generally fewer and more potent in their abilities, and a character who gains a magic sword will likely keep it his entire life and pass it down to his heirs, not trade it in for a better one like a used car every few levels. Magic items are customized specifically for PC's in most cases, and there's no quibbling or doubt over who should get them when they come. I try to make the AP's a little like that too.
I have to say I feel Nanithice's pain as a GM....the group I'm currently running through Jade Regent has yet to make it to Brinewall, but one of the players in the group...is what the Game Mastery Guide calls an "entrepreneur"...in past games he has saved his gold till he could afford a bag of holding, the he takes every bit of treasure he can fit in, to sell of later. His characters are mostly wizards so the minute get fabricate as a spell he then uses that spell to turn mundane equipment into masterwork stuff to sell at a higher price. this is on top of charging the party rental fees for using his bag of holding.
Now for Jade Regent he stepped out of the wizard box and made a Rogue/Fighter, he has been put in charge of "party loot". So his method is as such.
1) all loot is totaled based on its GP value.
2) the characters are given GP's based on that total divided equally
3) if a character wants a magic item, that items GP value is taken out of their share. That items GP value is then redivided among the other characters.
A conversation like the one Ice Titan described happened when one of the characters wanted to give Ameiko Whispering Strike has a gift. Only it happened between 2 players not 4.
This is why I like skill rogues. I scout ahead, take what I want when they aren't looking, then bring out the rest to be divided up.
If some guy was not paying attention, I might even seem very reasonable and let them have what they really want from what I have already looked over. :)
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Our group also just gave Suishen to Ameiko. Nobody wanted to deal with the imbalance created by such a powerful item, and it makes sense within the story. I recommend you consider this option. The PC currently wielding Suishen will certainly find some more katana soon, or can simply purchase one.
We also have a spreadsheet for calculating treasure and wealth for every party member... so that helps keep things balanced!
Mike: And here I thought I was the only one with a spreadsheet for that. Our group also gives a cut to party treasure to pay for the majority of consumables.
- Gauss
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It's a lot more common than you might think.
We've got a spreadsheet to track items found, who is currently using them (if they're still party property), etc. Any character can buy the item (at the price it could be sold for), at which point the item gets removed from the tracking system.
Straightforward wealth (coins/gems/...) gets divided up equally between the characters (after paying for the regular consumables, etc.), including shares for any NPCs who made a significant contribution.
JohnF: I was partially joking but also partly not. Awhile back I was accused of being a 'nazi communist' for the means by which my group splits treasure and how I (as GM) kept track of everyones equipment (only the major items). Every couple levels I do a quick inventory (to confirm my WBL numbers) and maintain a spreadsheet.
- Gauss
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Our group also just gave Suishen to Ameiko. Nobody wanted to deal with the imbalance created by such a powerful item, and it makes sense within the story. I recommend you consider this option. The PC currently wielding Suishen will certainly find some more katana soon, or can simply purchase one.
Look, I could understand it if Ameiko wanted to claim the weapon for herself... but that is highly unlikely. She would probably want the most appropiate person to wield it, which is clearly not her.
But putting away the weapon where it mostly won't get used is, frankly said, stupid. It is a good weapon in terms of combat and it has a lot of utility which can benefit the whole group. The players should look at that and not "oh, player X got an artifact, now I feel bad for myself".
Also, in terms of combat power, Suishen is middling at best. As an artifact, it can never be upgraded and that means the person using it is stuck with a +2 enhancement bonus weapon ( with some nifty special abilities ). Other players will have better weapons in terms of to-hit and damage power later on.
One change that I made to Suishen was that it provides proficient with itself to any scion who wields it.
I have also determined that once a particular scion unlocks some powers, they are always unlocked for them, regardless of who else has wielded it since.
I plan on having Suishen encourage all of the scions to unlock all of it's powers, each using it in turn until all of them have unlocked all of it's powers. This will mean that in the later parts of the adventure, any of them can wield it to it's full potential, regardless of who is down and who is not, at that particular moment.
To me, Suishen is part of the clan, allied with the clan, and not a piece of gear that any single PC can say "mine".
I suspect that the above will ensure that no one PC is overly penalized or rewarded for wielding Suishen.
Our group also just gave Suishen to Ameiko. Nobody wanted to deal with the imbalance created by such a powerful item, and it makes sense within the story. I recommend you consider this option. The PC currently wielding Suishen will certainly find some more katana soon, or can simply purchase one.Look, I could understand it if Ameiko wanted to claim the weapon for herself... but that is highly unlikely. She would probably want the most appropiate person to wield it, which is clearly not her.
But putting away the weapon where it mostly won't get used is, frankly said, stupid. It is a good weapon in terms of combat and it has a lot of utility which can benefit the whole group. The players should look at that and not "oh, player X got an artifact, now I feel bad for myself".
Also, in terms of combat power, Suishen is middling at best. As an artifact, it can never be upgraded and that means the person using it is stuck with a +2 enhancement bonus weapon ( with some nifty special abilities ). Other players will have better weapons in terms of to-hit and damage power later on.
I've got to agree. I find the way some have apparently dealt with Suishen to be very strange. Couldn't come to an agreement so couldn't use it. Wow, er...
You didn't pass it to a melee char? You were stumped that one might be getting ahead on loot and power via an item? Focus on the benefit to the group, worry less about one char being slightly more powerful because they can use it, and move on.
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Passing Suishen off to Ameiko was simply the decision that made the most sense. By the time we picked it up, all of our melee characters (a magus, rogue, and paladin) already had Weapon Focus and completely different combat styles using other weapons (rapier, longsword/shield, and dual wakizashi). There was no argument over who got to have it. It's not that we "Couldn't come to an agreement so couldn't use it." The imbalance I mentioned wasn't imbalance within the party. It was imbalance between our abilities and the challenge of the AP. With the extra loot at the end of the first module, we all felt that we had way too much gear already and we were already steamrolling the AP, so we didn't feel like we needed Suishen. When the question of "Who wants Suishen?" came up, nobody wanted it. So we simply let Ameiko have it. Had one of our PCs not been focused on a particular weapon type already, maybe that PC would have taken Suishen. In that case the GM's solution probably would have been for less "bonus gear" to go to that PC.
Whoa, they STILL consider the player as having gotten their portion of the loot?!
I understand saying that Suishen counts as one person's share of the Ravenscraeg loot, but they're going overboard.
My suggestion is to counter it with the other ancestral weapons (i.e. the thundering blade of house sugimatu, and the daikyu of commanding presence). Play up their importance as similar to Suishen, and perhaps add in a fourth weapon to match one of the missing families so that everyone gets one. Tailor the weapons specifically so that each one is suited to a different PC, and each will get one.
Then ahead of time, tell them that Suishen was merely the first big find, that it'll be counterbalanced later by finds for the others, and that the Suishen-wielder should be getting an equal share of the treasure or will end up significantly behind later on.
Another option for handling pre-made items like Suishen, would be to blow the saucy little thing up into all of its glorious little game mechanic shards and then re-purpose it into a number of items that will provide the same utility/story function in game. Much easier to parcel out to groups that like to track every GP of treasure owned by everyone. Not every game group is going to worry so much, but there are great groups full of good, fun, huggable gamers that will still pull their hair out by the roots when faced with balancing artifacts among the party member.
I'm personally in the Needs of the Many camp. But if a group is going to have a hard time with Suishen as-written...rework it imo. Each GM should know what their group is going to balk or cheer at. In other aspects of an Adventure Path, we all end up tinkering or readjusting on the fly in order to best serve the group and story.
Granted, reworking and re-purposing Suishen without actually removing the sword from the story is not an easy task. But if all a particular group really cares about are the mechanical effects...that's easy enough to remedy. Hand out some cloaks of Endure Elements, one or two cool magic weapons. The "future" revealed powers of Suishen could just come 'round in the form of future treasure as well.
Perhaps, for those groups, the Five Storms could have some meta-plot reasons for not destroying the sword (like putting forth a puppet Amatatsu heir after they reclaimed the Amatatsu Seal or some such scheme), and perhaps its fantastic worth was based around some hefty ornamentation (gem-studded, etc) that has since been sold off/pried out while still leaving the sword intact and recognizable as the Amatatsu family's blade. That way the PCs don't end up with a boat load of magical items and a gem encrusted sword that they can sell off for smack.
The "please don't sell this item" aspect is something that could be retained by having the Kami spirit from part 1 of Jade Regent (the one that used to protect the seal, and subsequently possesses Ameiko) take up residence in/around/on the sword once the PCs find it. That way it could fill the roll of cantankerous and slightly insane talking sword, and hopefully the PCs would start seeing it as an NPC instead of a potential windfall of cash. The sword's intrinsic value derives from its power as a symbol. Afterall, its primary purpose is to help an individual claiming to be an Amatatsu heir strengthen that claim. I'd just present it like someone handing the characters a small brass key that opens a dragon's hoard...just a small brass key...but you better believe the party isn't going to want to lose it/toss it in a trash bin.
Anyway...just a thought I had for a middle road between "lump it" and "take it away", and one I hadn't seen tossed out yet (but I may have failed a Perception check).
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Again, making Suishen "go away" should not be an option. It's the Amatatsu family sword, it is needed to help legitimize Ameiko in the eyes of the populace.
Tell the other players to get over it, this is a group game.
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Could also give it a transforming property. When taken to a sacred Tian shrine deep in the mountains (or such like) it becomes a bladed weapon of the bearers choice. Very soul calibur.
Course if no one wants to use it, and they want to pass it to the bard aristocrat... okay.
It would also be damn bold if a chaotic character destroyed it, saying "we do not need the symbols of the old regime. We will forge a new Minkai with our weapons!"
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Again, making Suishen "go away" should not be an option.
Just to clarify one thing - suggesting that an alternative approach would be to sell Suishen and divide the proceeds was supposed to be a Reductio ad Absurdum argument. I never for one moment thought any party would consider actually doing this.
Below quote selected as it demonstrates a viewpoint, not because of the person who posted it.
I suspect that . . . will ensure that no one PC is overly penalized or rewarded for wielding Suishen.You are a dedicated group on a long-term mission that requires you all work together towards a single end.
Exactly how is one person going to benefit more than everybody else if they are using Suishen?
The group succeeds or fails.
Those focusing on individual benefits and balancing out the rewards across the party are demanding that working together as a group isn't important until I get mine!
You don't understand the basic concepts of what it means to be a long-term group working towards a single goal. Not even close.
Not everyone/group is focused only on the greater good and/or the greater good of the group. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice what they consider their fair share for the greater good, especially if they see that sacrifice rewarding someone else simply because they became the lucky one to wield Suishen.
While everyone is trying to put Ameiko on the throne (or doing so until they can replace her), they don't believe that one individual should get a lot more of the rewards for the same amount of danger.
That is where the problem lies, determining the value of Suishen, or finding a way to ensure that the perceived value of Suishen does not overly penalize (or reward) the weilder.
I don't expect to have any issues with Suishen and my group, but I like to be prepared, and I believe that my changes will engage my players more, with all of them forming bonds with Suishen and Ameiko.
You don't understand the basic concepts of what it means to be a long-term group working towards a single goal. Not even close.
That phrase appears to be quite close to telling people "you are having bad/wrong fun". If the perception of the reader comes to that conclusion, often your posts will disregarded, even the pertinent points.
+2 to cutting sushi. Belonged to Shen the sushi-man long long ago.
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When you sign on for an AP, you as a player enter an informal contract to work with the rest of the group to attempt to complete the AP and to help everyone else have fun along the way. Ask a soldier if the gear they get is passed out based on "fair" or based on the combination of role, utility, and actual carrying capacity. Soldiers want to live and get home more than they want to "get their share", and they make better decisions as a result. Adventurers have far more in common with soldiers than they do gamers.
Military units are not always a good comparison for adventurers.
Military units have a strict chain of command, issued geared and have a fixed but steady pay.
Adventurers often have issues with being told what to do (and their players have trouble with perceptions of the railroad), have no fixed pay or reward. Their pay comes from what they loot from their vanquised foes or what they find in old (and usually abandonned) complexes.
Your approach is one way of doing thing. Not every group will fall into that approach, nor should they be obliged to. I have seen the same group of players run thing differently from one campaign and another one (different PCs).
Again, making Suishen "go away" should not be an option. It's the Amatatsu family sword, it is needed to help legitimize Ameiko in the eyes of the populace.
Tell the other players to get over it, this is a group game.
I know that I've read many, many fantasy novels and series spanning decades... never once have I heard a character whine because someone else got more magic items than them.
This is a problem endemic to the game imo and the exact reason why we run a lower magic campaign. Players should spend a lot more time focusing on and taking pride in what they can do, not what they have.
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I know that I've read many, many fantasy novels and series spanning decades... never once have I heard a character whine because someone else got more magic items than them.
I'm pretty sure that I've seen in in Diskworld, but all my paperbacks are still in boxes from the last move so I don't have to repack them in another month or two.
Diskworld is a deconstruction of fantasy. You might as well cite Knights of the Dinner Table.