Rolled stats actually often run counter to minmaxing a lot of the time, in my opinion. It's much less likely you'll get any 18s.
Mmm, yes, good point. Especially if you get two lowish scores and some great ones, the rolling doesn't give you everything to play with. Say, instead of 4d6 with no 1s and 2s, choose the best three (as I recently heard a powergamer favoured), 4d6 with 1s counting, choose the best three for each ability score.
My players get a little annoyed at having a weakness and their strengths being a bit blunted (start with a high score of 16 not say, 20), but I want them to grow and become heroes, not be utter tanks or true geniuses at level 1. The centaur knight party member for instance, has a 19 str and a terrible int at level 5. Through the solving of problems the int is going up, an in-game reward. The barb can go past the centaurs str, but for a few rounds a day. Such are some examples of how I do it.
+1Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.Honestly I think it could have all been managed in game. Advanced races while on the whole superior to other races are not necessarily game breakers, neither are rolled stats (honestly this comes down to a preference more than a balance stance since between a good point buy player and a moderately lucky roller your important mods should never be more than 2-4 bonuses off.), I'll give you the poor decisions though on the whole he went about it wrong and really I don't particularly care for the entire idea of bringing in new players underleveled either from a balance stand point.
And when you couple that with abysmal system mastery on the part of both the DM and the OP it's not really surprising that they're having problems.
No need to come onto the boards and cry about the system being broken when you aren't even following the rules properly though.
The idea that baal is a neonate to pathfinder and therefore his criticims are invalid is simply an appeal to expertise argument--don't listen to him, he is not an expert like us. There are problems he has seen and identified, and his criticisms have been echoed by others (this is not the attempt to use the bandwagon argument :D).
My players get a little annoyed at having a weakness and their strengths being a bit blunted (start with a high score of 16 not say, 20), but I want them to grow and become heroes, not be utter tanks or true geniuses at level 1. The centaur knight party member for instance, has a 19 str and a terrible int at level 5. Through the solving of problems the int is going up, an in-game reward. The barb can go past the centaurs str, but for a few rounds a day. Such are some examples of how I do it.
I typically like a high start score of 18 post racial (and I like 20-25 PB).
I don't think starting with a 20 rather than a 16 really changes how much the characters will have to grow. The class levels are a better representation of growth than ability scores, I think.
The idea that baal is a neonate to pathfinder and therefore his criticims are invalid is simply an appeal to expertise argument--don't listen to him, he is not an expert like us. There are problems he has seen and identified, and his criticisms have been echoed by others (this is not the attempt to use the bandwagon argument :D).+1Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.Honestly I think it could have all been managed in game. Advanced races while on the whole superior to other races are not necessarily game breakers, neither are rolled stats (honestly this comes down to a preference more than a balance stance since between a good point buy player and a moderately lucky roller your important mods should never be more than 2-4 bonuses off.), I'll give you the poor decisions though on the whole he went about it wrong and really I don't particularly care for the entire idea of bringing in new players underleveled either from a balance stand point.
And when you couple that with abysmal system mastery on the part of both the DM and the OP it's not really surprising that they're having problems.
No need to come onto the boards and cry about the system being broken when you aren't even following the rules properly though.
To be clear my point was that to argue against things you clearly don't understand, and admittedly so, while being shown evidence to the contrary is not exactly a good idea. If you(not person specific) are going to complain about something, that at least listen to those who know more if they are being given solutions to your problem.
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The idea that baal is a neonate to pathfinder and therefore his criticims are invalid is simply an appeal to expertise argument--don't listen to him, he is not an expert like us. There are problems he has seen and identified, and his criticisms have been echoed by others (this is not the attempt to use the bandwagon argument :D).
When a doctor tells you what medicine to take are their suggestions rendered invalid by the purveyors of homeopathy?
.Argument from expertise is not a fallacy - it's rational to listen to the experts, especially if you are not an expert yourself.
I have no clue about the rules, but I'm going to take wraithstrike's opinion over baalbamoth every day of the week when it comes to a question regarding how the rules of pathfinder work. (Similarly, I'll side with baalbamoth if he and wraithstrike get into an argument over psychology of inuits in Alaska).
The non-expert is necessarily pushing uphill. If you want to be taken seriously in a field you have admitted to being a neophyte in you need much stronger evidence. Pointing out that other people agree with you isnt actually evidence (any more than a homeopath pointing to his client list constitutes evidence).
Well duh, have you seen my ability scores?Face it, you are amazingly sub-optimal. :POss- The most Out of Character thing a soldier could do is waste precious training time on something that will not help him survive.As a soldier, I find this statement preposterous.
With scores like those I'm surprised any adventuring company would hire you tbh.
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Over 1000 posts eh?
For those just joining us, going "TL;DR!", here is a summary:
- Quote-unquote RP'ers go "Everything is OP, and nobody RPs."
- baal goes: "How dare you deal high damage in melee with your character focused solely on dealing damage in melee?"
- People try to explain that high level is insane, and math that applies on levels 1-5 does not apply on levels 15-20, but nobody listens.
- Very few agrees on what is "balanced"
- Nobody is willing to compromise on their interpretation of "Powergaming"
- Logical fallacies gallore.
Grod may not be smartest orc...
But Grod not try to argue same point for four sleeps.
Gobby sometimes like argue.
Brad argue a lot.
But Grod accept that sky is sky, ground is ground, and poop smell bad.
Brad argue a lot.
Hey, even I have my limits, big guy.
True.
Grod never see Brad argue for four sleeps.
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+1Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.Honestly I think it could have all been managed in game. Advanced races while on the whole superior to other races are not necessarily game breakers, neither are rolled stats (honestly this comes down to a preference more than a balance stance since between a good point buy player and a moderately lucky roller your important mods should never be more than 2-4 bonuses off.), I'll give you the poor decisions though on the whole he went about it wrong and really I don't particularly care for the entire idea of bringing in new players underleveled either from a balance stand point.
And when you couple that with abysmal system mastery on the part of both the DM and the OP it's not really surprising that they're having problems.
No need to come onto the boards and cry about the system being broken when you aren't even following the rules properly though.
If you are writing your own campaign or tweaking the APs (as you should) those things wouldn't matter. BUT, and here is where the breakdown in the whole conversation with Baal happened, if your GM just plays the AP as written and doesn't change anything THEN you will of course have a balance issue where the players have a defined and clear advantage over the AP as written.
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- People try to explain that high level is insane, and math that applies on levels 1-5 does not apply on levels 15-20, but nobody listens.
Not even the people making those points! It's chaos! It's pandemonium! Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
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- People try to explain that high level is insane, and math that applies on levels 1-5 does not apply on levels 15-20, but nobody listens.Not even the people making those points! It's chaos! It's pandemonium! Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
HAIL ERIS!
No chaos...I'm True Neutral.- People try to explain that high level is insane, and math that applies on levels 1-5 does not apply on levels 15-20, but nobody listens.Not even the people making those points! It's chaos! It's pandemonium! Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
Yay! Now we can have the one thing we haven't had in this thread yet: an alignment argument!
True neutral doesn't mean you don't get dragged into chaos ever. Here's my proof:
Whoa Whoa...Now I am getting tossed into fights in completely different threads using words put in my mouth that I never said. We are going back to what was said NUMEROUS times in the other thread where you should be confined to...links and proof or it didn't happen.
Heck, I'm Lawful, and stuff happens.
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No chaos...I'm True Neutral.- People try to explain that high level is insane, and math that applies on levels 1-5 does not apply on levels 15-20, but nobody listens.Not even the people making those points! It's chaos! It's pandemonium! Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!Yay! Now we can have the one thing we haven't had in this thread yet: an alignment argument!
True neutral doesn't mean you don't get dragged into chaos ever. Here's my proof:
Whoa Whoa...Now I am getting tossed into fights in completely different threads using words put in my mouth that I never said. We are going back to what was said NUMEROUS times in the other thread where you should be confined to...links and proof or it didn't happen.Heck, I'm Lawful, and stuff happens.
haha my statement was meant to be ironic. True Neutral is probably the closest to Chaos as you can get. You can freely jump from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil and back to Chaotic Neutral all within a 30 minute conversation with Baal.
Heck, I'm Lawful, and stuff happens.
That's what happens when you try to put a box around reality. Reality tends to push back.
Ahh, I miss the days of the Great Wheel, when everything had and evident symmetry to it.
The heavens themselves, the planets and this centre
Observe degree, priority and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form,
Office and custom, in all line of order;
And therefore is the glorious planet Sol
In noble eminence enthroned and sphered
Amidst the other; whose medicinable eye
Corrects the ill aspects of planets evil,
And posts, like the commandment of a king,
Sans cheque to good and bad: but when the planets
In evil mixture to disorder wander,
What plagues and what portents! what mutiny!
What raging of the sea! shaking of earth!
Commotion in the winds! frights, changes, horrors,
Divert and crack, rend and deracinate
The unity and married calm of states
Quite from their fixure! O, when degree is shaked,
Which is the ladder to all high designs,
Then enterprise is sick! How could communities,
Degrees in schools and brotherhoods in cities,
Peaceful commerce from dividable shores,
The primogenitive and due of birth,
Prerogative of age, crowns, sceptres, laurels,
But by degree, stand in authentic place?
Take but degree away, untune that string,
And, hark, what discord follows! each thing meets
In mere oppugnancy: the bounded waters
Should lift their bosoms higher than the shores
And make a sop of all this solid globe:
Strength should be lord of imbecility,
And the rude son should strike his father dead:
Force should be right; or rather, right and wrong,
Between whose endless jar justice resides,
Should lose their names, and so should justice too.
Then every thing includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat up himself.
Key word "evident" =D
Switch up your grid and suddenly things don't line up anymore. Makes ya think, don't it?
Switch up your grid and suddenly things don't line up anymore. Makes ya think, don't it?
Yes, but it is ever the fate of the Lawful to be thoughtful. Chaotics, not so much thinking. . .
Switch up your grid and suddenly things don't line up anymore. Makes ya think, don't it?Yes, but it is ever the fate of the Lawful to be thoughtful. Chaotics, not so much thinking. . .
Hey, I do plenty of thinking. Like deciding what face I want to wear for the day. So many options!
** spoiler omitted **
Now this, this I approve.
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I think everyone hates when people quote them as saying things they never said.
PS: as long as some of you are passing toward or through Wisconsin feel free to hope over the lake to Michigan and buy some of our amazing Mackinaw Island Fudge.
PS: as long as some of you are passing toward or through Wisconsin feel free to hope over the lake to Michigan and buy some of our amazing Mackinaw Island Fudge.
Can I get some of this in Superior WI? My wife and I are heading to Duluth, MN later this week to visit her sister-in-law.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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I think everyone hates when people quote them as saying things they never said.
PS: as long as some of you are passing toward or through Wisconsin feel free to hope over the lake to Michigan and buy some of our amazing Mackinaw Island Fudge.
Clearly, that fudge is OP and needs to be nerfed, and you are a powergamer for not preferring the lower tier, but clearly RP superior store-brands, like most people who are not into fudge default to. System mastery of the world of fudge should not reward you!
Disclaimer: The previous post has been a comparative parody on this thread, and is not to be considered my opinion, as I have never been in Wisconsin, or any neighboring state.
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I guess its kinda like if you got cancer, and you go to a oncologist who says dont listen to those homeopathic guys, they'll get ya killed. meanwhile there are all kinds of holistic and homeopathic oncologist guys saying "dont do chemo, you can kill the cancer with diet and meditation... look at these people, they all did it!"
who do you listen to?
For the love of god, you listen to the Doctor. It's cancer!
On one hand, you have someone who studied at a accredited university for 8+ years, had 10 years of internships and fellowships, has science, statistics, and an peer-reviewed method of treatment on his side.
On the other hand, you have people with anecdotal evidence, a non-science based understanding of the human body, and faith that their way is better.
Look, the reason anecdotal evidence isn't actual evidence is because there is always a small chance that something absurd is going to happen. If you say "10 people surivied cancer because of homopathy," you are not providing evidence, you are telling stories. If 10 people out of 100,000 surviving cancer because of homopathy isn't evidence that homopathy works, it is statistical noise.
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Keep in mind that some classes outshine others in a "magic-lite" campaign setting, so you may end up having a similar problem if people catch on to it.
We aren't blaming everything on your GM...or that other player for that matter. It sounds like he said he wanted to be a Barbarian, looked up what had stats that benefited that idea, looked up feats that would help him hurt more and made a character...ever heard of the infinite monkey theorum? But, at the same time if the GM had limited the choices that player would have made pretty much the same character but did it with a slightly less powerful race (granted by level 8 that extra +1 or +2 is hardly noticeable).
And like you said...he min/maxed with the intent to crit. In Pathfinder that situation and scenario is hardly as powerful as it would have been in 3.5 or even 4th. The guys here at Paizo work really hard playtesting and fixing everything so things aren't completely unfair...heck there is a whole thread that James Jacobs (writer, developer, and player)posts in called "Ask James Jacobs".
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I guess its kinda like if you got cancer, and you go to a oncologist who says dont listen to those homeopathic guys, they'll get ya killed. meanwhile there are all kinds of holistic and homeopathic oncologist guys saying "dont do chemo, you can kill the cancer with diet and meditation... look at these people, they all did it!"
who do you listen to?
For the love of god, you listen to the Doctor. It's cancer!
On one hand, you have someone who studied at a accredited university for 8+ years, had 10 years of internships and fellowships, has science, statistics, and an peer-reviewed method of treatment on his side.
On the other hand, you have people with anecdotal evidence, a non-science based understanding of the human body, and faith that their way is better.
Look, the reason anecdotal evidence isn't actual evidence is because there is always a small chance that something absurd is going to happen. If you say "10 people surivied cancer because of homopathy," you are not providing evidence, you are telling stories. If 10 people out of 100,000 surviving cancer because of homopathy isn't evidence that homopathy works, it is statistical noise.
I always use this one for the homeopathic crap:
Homeopathic remedies are hundreds, sometimes thousands of years old
But disease survival rates did not begin climbing until modern medicine.
If homeopathy worked, modern medicine would have never been invented as it would have been unnecessary.
Homeopathy didn't do anything in the face of the black plague, but today the 5 or 6 cases of bubonic plague that are reported every year have almost 100% survival rates.
A lot of people don't even realize the black plague is still around today, it's just nothing in the face of modern antibiotics.
Vaccines nearly wiped out several sicknesses across the earth (which have now started coming back thanks to the anti-vaccine movement.)
So to back up what Naedra said:
Go with evidence based science every time.
In 300 years, modern science has done more than the rest of human history combined x1000.
Always go with evidence and data. Anything less isn't worth the time.
That applies to discussions about Pathfinder as well as any other discussion on earth.
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all- self admitted non-PF expert... BUT... when you walk into a game thats been going on for four years and everyone at the table points to one guy and says that guy is a power gamer, you see all the things he does in a game line up to powergamer, and you ask "how was he able to do that?" and the expirenced players all say "well its easy to do in pathfinder, its a min/maxed character and he used a build he found online to max his crit damage.... its totally gross" you kinda dont think their wrong... I still dont think they are from what I saw but I'm willing to conceed since I cant present the character and a lot of people here sound like they are talking from expirence as well.
Beware with the so-called "builds found online".
Most of the time, such character is disruptive because over-optimized and made "to win the game" ; or simply is the fruit of a bad rules comprehension that may not be obvious to the player who will copy-paste it on his sheet. If you have to take this build "found online" without even understanding the whole process behind it and knowing exactly the rules it exploits, you aren't going to help the game's balance with people unable to point them to you either.
Porphy- do not mention the goddess, bad things happen when you do... (Damn I mis RAW)
but I know I cant completely bring back the old days, but I could bring back the style I am used to. I just kinda dont think PF has the gritty I'm used to, and it wouldent be an easy thing to bring in, all kinds of things would have to change. I'm ok with doing that but meh not sure if its worth the work or if people would even appreciate it.
Powergaming or optimisation or whatever you want to call it is not new. There are a few grognards around here who have posted some of the things they did in previous editions. I don't know what you mean by gritty, but there are also players like myself who don't want the GM to fudge the dice to keep them alive. I am more than happy to earn my victories, and accept death on my way to becoming a hero. You just have to find a group a like-minded people.:)
right now I'm sort of thinking of having a low magic game, and I do see options for that in PF though it generally has to do with the magic items but not for spells etc. I'll look into what some other people have done with that and see if theres anything I want to copy/steal...
There are a quiet a few suggestions around here, but I would suggest you play with the normal rules first. If you tweak the wrong rule it can make things worse since all of the rules are so interconnected. You might also want to look into E-7. E-7 is basically when you play by the normal rules, but don't level up past 7. If you get enough XP to level you get another feat. That may not be exactly correct, but it is pretty close.
all- self admitted non-PF expert... BUT... when you walk into a game thats been going on for four years and everyone at the table points to one guy and says that guy is a power gamer, you see all the things he does in a game line up to powergamer, and you ask "how was he able to do that?" and the expirenced players all say "well its easy to do in pathfinder, its a min/maxed character and he used a build he found online to max his crit damage.... its totally gross" you kinda dont think their wrong... I still dont think they are from what I saw but I'm willing to conceed since I cant present the character and a lot of people here sound like they are talking from expirence as well.
I understand that you were listening to the experienced players, at the table, but playing for X number of years does not always mean a lot. The GM should have not allowed anything beyond the core races if he knows a certain player can take advantage of it. You can't just find an online build and assume it is good because it is online. I have seen some pretty bad builds online. Some of them did not even follow the rules.
now of course you can always say its all the DM's fault for not communicating, for not controling the issue, or for sending the wrong encounters but I dunno... making that assumption about a guy who aparently loves PF and has played it three times a week since it came out seems wrong also.
As the GM you control the game. Whether you play it 1 time or 50 times a week that responsibility does not change. Just to be clear I am not saying he is morally wrong. I am saying he made a bad call by doing it the way he did, but if he is still struggling with the rules as you hinted to earlier, that might be a large part of the problem. He might not know, what is not ok.
further, when your on a PF site and saying or suggesting something is OP is met with an almost religious level of resistance, I tend to have suspicions... I might not be able prove my point, or to disprove yours, but I do see a LOT of dissention when it comes to powerlevel, and in a sense if somebody is telling me "all those other PF players who have been posting here for years have the same wrong idea you do." that invites even more doubt that the experts are such experts.
None of us are fan boys. I said more than one, that the game has its issues. It was not a religious level of resistance. I am just don't take someone's word for something when they say it. I also realised you were just repeating other people.
As for the dissention, that goes back to the wide disparity in power level that the game allows. Some people think that their preferred power level is "the one true way to play". If you don't play like they play they call insult you for building characters that are too strong or one that are too weak.People like myself that you disagree with have can show you math or tactics to stop the so-called OP builds. Many times people see high numbers, and over react. The idea that some people that the rogue is OP in combat when it is one of the weakest classes for combat shows that.
The game is not just about numbers. You have to know when they apply, and to what extent. Many of the people you quoted have also misread the rules or did not know enough to account for certain things. If someone is getting the rules wrong, and someone is not who do you listen to? If someone is not giving you all the info, but someone else gives you additional info so you can make a more informed decision who do you listen to? I know who I would listen to. :)
The next time you find a broken build I want you to look at the books, and see if it is rules legal before you try to bring it here. Yeah it will take up some of your free time, but you will get to learn the rules. If it is rules legal then you should compare it to the monsters in the book to see if it is as good as the poster says it is. Since you plan to GM anyway it is not like you will be wasting your time by doing so.
I guess its kinda like if you got cancer, and you go to a oncologist who says dont listen to those homeopathic guys, they'll get ya killed. meanwhile there are all kinds of holistic and homeopathic oncologist guys saying "dont do chemo, you can kill the cancer with diet and meditation... look at these people, they all did it!"
Homeopathy has to be the worst example you could pick to support your case.
Oscillococcinum is a common flu remedy in homeopathy. It consists of duck heart and liver, diluted in water. It'd diluted at a ratio of 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000
Yes, that is the correct number of zeroes.
If you buy a 6oz bottle of the stuff, there are roughly 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 water molecules. You would need to buy approximately 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bottles before you got 1 molecule of the actual medicine (on average).
Irontruth, where did you get that number? Because it's a freakishly small number.
PS: as long as some of you are passing toward or through Wisconsin feel free to hope over the lake to Michigan and buy some of our amazing Mackinaw Island Fudge.Can I get some of this in Superior WI? My wife and I are heading to Duluth, MN later this week to visit her sister-in-law.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Duluth? Awesome! I'm practically right next door!
I live in Thunder Bay, less than an hour from the US Minnesota border. It takes me about 4 hours to get to Duluth, give or take. Nice city!
I recommend you check out a famous record store there called 'The Electric Fetus'. They have a lot of cool stuff, and not just records.
Also, if you ever get the chance, I would HIGHLY recommend driving a couple extra hours north of Duluth to Lutsen and Grand Marais. Lutsen has amazing hiking and super cheap lodging in the summer, and AMAZING skiing in the winter. Grand Marais is a cute little northern town right on Lake Superior... very beautiful and has a lot of cool little shops... and the World's Best Donuts!
Then if you feel up to it, cross the border and come to Thunder Bay! Fort William Historical Park (where I have worked) is a great tourist spot... it's a Living History Museum that re-enacts the Fur Trade in 1815. The entire place is a re-built Fur Trade Post. Very cool! (when I worked there, I used to dress up like a Voyageur or Scottish Gentlemen and talk to visitors in-character)
If I wasn't leaving for British Columbia this week, I'd suggest we meet up for a game, as I'll take any excuse to drive down there and especially to make new gaming friends. :)
Irontruth, where did you get that number? Because it's a freakishly small number.
Most Oscillococcinum you can buy will be rated 200CK. This means it was diliuted using the Korsakov method, and repeated 200 times. The Korsakov method is a 1:100 dilution. Repeated 200 times results in 1:10e400.
Most Oscillococcinum is actually sold by the milligram. So I'd have to redo the math to give you the actual amounts of the "active ingredient" in a package you could buy at Wal-greens, but the math will basically be the same (except you'll need to buy several orders of magnitude more packages). You have a better chance at winning the Powerball, than a homeopathy remedy actually containing a single molecule of the "active ingredient".
As frame of reference, there are:
7x10e9 people in the world
10e42 possible chess games (including all legal moves, including ridiculous ones like marching your king straight across the board as soon as possible)
15x10e14 is how many pennies it would take to pay off the national debt
If you stacked those pennies, it would take light 538 days to go travel from one end to the other.
Homeopathy is a ridiculous concept.
Ah, okay. When numbers get larger than googul, I get tempted to cry bullsh*t. :P
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Baal, if alternative medicine like homeopathy actually worked, it wouldn't be called 'alternative'.
It would just be called medicine.
It's sort of along the same logic that "There is no such thing as the supernatural, for if it exists, it is by its very definition natural."
Same applies to "unnatural".
There is no such thing as unnatural.
Anything made is made from natural ingredients, even toxic waste.
Any action an animal (which includes us) performs instantly becomes natural the moment it is performed.
Ah, okay. When numbers get larger than googul, I get tempted to cry bullsh*t. :P
I hear ya. Which is why I'm pretty sure homeopathy is b*@&&+@+.
To be fair, FG, 'unnatural' shouldn't be taken literally. It refers to things perpetrated by humans, since humans are generally regarded as the least natural living creature to be found.
To be fair, FG, 'unnatural' shouldn't be taken literally. It refers to things perpetrated by humans, since humans are generally regarded as the least natural living creature to be found.
I just think it's a word used more often to describe things people fear or dislike.
People generally tend to use words like supernatural and unnatural when they're trying to make up excuses for being bigots, ignorant, or woefully unintelligent.
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all- self admitted non-PF expert... BUT... when you walk into a game thats been going on for four years and everyone at the table points to one guy and says that guy is a power gamer, you see all the things he does in a game line up to powergamer, and you ask "how was he able to do that?" and the expirenced players all say "well its easy to do in pathfinder, its a min/maxed character and he used a build he found online to max his crit damage.... its totally gross" you kinda dont think their wrong... I still dont think they are from what I saw but I'm willing to conceed since I cant present the character and a lot of people here sound like they are talking from expirence as well.
now of course you can always say its all the DM's fault for not communicating, for not controling the issue, or for sending the wrong encounters but I dunno... making that assumption about a guy who aparently loves PF and has played it three times a week since it came out seems wrong also.
You did say he spends half the session looking up rules. He may love the game, but he doesnt sound like he knows it very well.
further, when your on a PF site and saying or suggesting something is OP is met with an almost religious level of resistance, I tend to have suspicions... I might not be able prove my point, or to disprove yours, but I do see a LOT of dissention when it comes to powerlevel, and in a sense if somebody is telling me "all those other PF players who have been posting here for years have the same wrong idea you do." that invites even more doubt that the experts are such experts.
You're right to be skeptical, but that doubt itself isnt evidence. The skepticism should lead you to evaluate the arguments not to count votes. (At least if you want to learn how it all works).
I guess its kinda like if you got cancer, and you go to a oncologist who says dont listen to those homeopathic guys, they'll get ya killed. meanwhile there are all kinds of holistic and homeopathic oncologist guys saying "dont do chemo, you can kill the cancer with diet and meditation... look at these people, they all did it!"
who do you listen to?
The one who provides evidence. There are stories supporting pretty much any viewpoint - the way to distinguish between the fanciful and the true is by testing them against measurable facts.
Correction to the stack of pennies, I was off, trying to do the math too quickly before I had to head out to GM a session... it would actually be 13.6 light minutes tall. Sloppy math is sloppy. It would still stretch from the Sun to a little bit past Mars.
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Another demonstration as to just how ridiculously large 10e400 is:
If you took every single sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, replaced each one with a copy of the entire universe, made a similar substitution in all the replacement copies, and so on for another two cycles, you still won't end up with 10e400 subatomic particles.
a word about that, have a friend that has lymphoma now, he went through chemo did everyting the doctor told him to do, and had an "I beat cancer party" then it came back, the doc told him because he didnt elect to have a bone marro transplant, they could not do it now that he has had the chemo.
he started studying everyting, read litterally like 100 books, one thing he found is there are tests to see if your cancer will respond to one chemo treatment over another. no doctor here ever told him about them... why? because they are only available in europe. they work, and they are accurate, but for whatever reason they dont do them here. there is also a doctor in canada that had something like 4000 cases of lymphoma cured with diet,exercise, a few holistic practices and a totally illegal drug (marijuana) my buddy followed that and guess what, the lymphnodes shrank, the doctor now says he is in complete remission, and he could not be happyer.
now thats just one person maybe shouldent be applied to the whole of cancer science, but with medicine theres only so much they will tell you and the advice is not always the best. sometimes you just gotta jump in and give it a shot when you got nothing to loose.
The point of anecdotal accounts like this is that the people who try the alternative medicines and die dont write books about it.
What matters is not whether some guy cured himself with positive attitude/marijuana/crystals. What matters is what proportion of patients doing that survive compare to what proportion survive who undergo evidence-based treatments.
Doctors like curing their patients. They're not going to hide something that works. They just recognise that a treatment which works once out of the twenty people who try it is worse than one which works a hundred times out of a thousand trials - despite the fact that the second treatment has nine hundred people who will report they have had no success.
The great tragedy with alternative medicine is that people do have something to lose, whether they realise it or not. It's nearly always better to begin treatment early - if you waste six months on meditative practises/crystal therapies/homeopathy or anything else and then go to the mainstream therapies as a last resort the damage has already been done. Purveyors of these treatments-without-evidence are doing harm, pure and simple.
Let me repeat this, a recipe to create a homeopathic remedy...
Take a small amount of some form of 'medicine'. Now put it in distilled water at a 1:100 ratio, that's 1 part medicine, 100 parts water. Mix it up.
Now take 1 part of that solution. Put it in another container with another 100 parts of distilled water. Mix it up. In this container, the medicine now accounts for 1:10,000 of the mixture. Out of every 10,000 molecules in the vial, 1 will be of medicine, 9,999 will be water.
You've completed the process twice, but it still needs to be done 198 more times. The ratio will be 1:10e400. Except the problem is.... 10e400 water molecules DON"T EVEN EXIST!
I guarantee you, if we had the ability to analyze all homeopathic remedies right now, sort through every molecule in every one of them... we might find one molecule of medicine, in the entire worlds supply. The odds of that happening though are so remote, that you and I should start planning my inauguration speech for when I take office as the President of the US next January, because that is statistically more likely by factor of several hundred 0's.
You have a better chance of winning the next 43 Powerball Jackpots in a row, than finding a molecule of medicine in a homeopathic remedy.