At the risk of this becoming another trip into rules minutia (which was informative last time, so it isn't a "bad" thing), the grab rule is here.
Meaning to me that +43 become a +23 if the creature doesn't want to be grappled back by whatever it is grappling, so probably something mainly used to stymie casters with low CMD rather than high CMD melee classes.
Key wording is "...it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple..."
The -20 applied to the attempt, not just the maintenance. The fact that it is mouth rather than claw seems to make no difference in the rule.
So the creature could either have a great chance of grappling, but also be grappled, or a bad chance of grappling (at least the melees), but not be grappled.
You should quote the full context of that line.
, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
So on the creature's turn, it can choose to dedicate it's focus totally on the creature it has grappled, or split it's focus and try to grapple and attack others at the same time. However, considering the Ahklut only has 1 bite attack, no ranged or other attacks, it would focus totally on the creature in it's mouth and eat it. This isn't really tactics, simply a 'something in my mouth, eat it' mentality.
since i have an outing soon. i will present the creations later.
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At the risk of this becoming another trip into rules minutia (which was informative last time, so it isn't a "bad" thing), the grab rule is here.
Meaning to me that +43 become a +23 if the creature doesn't want to be grappled back by whatever it is grappling, so probably something mainly used to stymie casters with low CMD rather than high CMD melee classes.
Key wording is "...it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple..."
The -20 applied to the attempt, not just the maintenance. The fact that it is mouth rather than claw seems to make no difference in the rule.
So the creature could either have a great chance of grappling, but also be grappled, or a bad chance of grappling (at least the melees), but not be grappled.
You should quote the full context of that line.
, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.So on the creature's turn, it can choose to dedicate it's focus totally on the creature it has grappled, or split it's focus and try to grapple and attack others at the same time. However, considering the Ahklut only has 1 bite attack, no ranged or other attacks, it would focus totally on the creature in it's mouth and eat it. This isn't really tactics, simply a 'something in my mouth, eat it' mentality.
On the creatures turn is the turn the creature is completing the grapple otherwise they wouldn't include the word "make" in addition to the word maintain.
When the creature makes the grapple, it decides if it will dedicate itself entirely to the grapple (therefore itself getting grappled back in the effort to hold the creature) or to just use the limb and take a -20 penalty.
That is why the CMB is so high for creatures with grab, adjusting for the -20.
You should quote the full context of that line.
, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.So on the creature's turn, it can choose to dedicate it's focus totally on the creature it has grappled, or split it's focus and try to grapple and attack others at the same time. However, considering the Ahklut only has 1 bite attack, no ranged or other attacks, it would focus totally on the creature in it's mouth and eat it. This isn't really tactics, simply a 'something in my mouth, eat it' mentality.On the creatures turn is the turn the creature is completing the grapple otherwise they wouldn't include the word "make" in addition to the word maintain.
When the creature makes the grapple, it decides if it will dedicate itself entirely to the grapple (therefore itself getting grappled back in the effort to hold the creature) or to just use the limb and take a -20 penalty.
That is why the CMB is so high for creatures with grab, adjusting for the -20.
Actually, the CMD is 43, the CMB is 34 vs Grapple. True story, the -20 from Grab, if it decides to go with Grab and not Grapple, doesn't apply to the Akhlut's CMD. Why doesn't it? Because it only takes -20 to CMB to make and maintain the check.
So once the Akhlut has 'Grabbed' the creature, it can choose to take the -20 on it's following turn and reduce it's bonus down to +19 (it gains a +5 if the Grappled victim fails to break free). Why would it do this? Because as long as it take -20, the Akhlut does not gain the Grappled condition.
So let me break it down for you.
Round 1: Akhlut Bite's Barbarian, deals damage, and then succeed's on the Grapple check via Grab.
Barbarian tries to break free of the Grapple by making a CMB check against CMD 43. He fails. He is still Grappled.
Round 2: Akhlut decides to simply use the Grab feature to hold the Barbarian. He makes a CMB check of 34 - 20 + 5 (as he also gets a +5 to maintain Grapple per Grapple rules) totaling +19. He could still win the Grapple check, and then the Akhlut swallows the Barbarian and deals bite damage. At this point, the Akhlu has a move action left, and still provokes attacks of opportunity.
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Funnily enough, if the Akhlut decides to use Grab, not Grapple, he still threatens his adjacent squares with it's Bite attack as nothing actually says he loses access to the attack he made the Grab with. Personally, I'd disallow that.
[Edit] In looking at this post once I hit submit, I don't think I was very clear.
If the Akhlut decides to use Grab, not Grapple, then on the round he hit with the Bite attack, the Akhlut's CMB bonus is reduced to +14 then as well. However, the Akhlut still has the option to go through with the normal rules of Grapple, and make the Grapple check at +34, but gains the Grappled condition in this case.
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I understand what you are saying. I think you are wrong and I think the rule is clear.
Strangely sarcasm didn't effect my reading of the rule. The rule applies to making and maintaining. Grabbing the Barbarian is making the check, and at that point the Akhlut must decide am I using my entire body to grapple (at which point it is a standard shared grapple) or just it's mouth (a special grab grapple)
If only his mouth, it is at -20.
Why, because the rules for grab are
"If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line."
I don't even feel like I need to refute anything you wrote because the rule is very clear. I'll just bold the relevant point.
Feel free to FAQ.
I understand what you are saying. I think you are wrong and I think the rule is clear.
Strangely sarcasm didn't effect my reading of the rule. The rule applies to making and maintaining. Grabbing the Barbarian is making the check, and at that point the Akhlut must decide am I using my entire body to grapple (at which point it is a standard shared grapple) or just it's mouth (a special grab grapple)
If only his mouth, it is at -20.
Why, because the rules for grab are
"If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line."
I don't even feel like I need to refute...
See my Edit, I realized my point was unclear after I hit Submit.
After the edit, are you saying the Akhlut can increase the escape if he full grapples, because I do agree with that. But then he would be subject to the penalties as well.
Yes I am. Methinks this happened.
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After the edit, are you saying the Akhlut can increase the escape if he full grapples, because I do agree with that. But then he would be subject to the penalties as well.Yes I am. Methinks this happened.
Great movie. I love the egg scene.
You know, I really wish Redwindow would come back so we could see his reaction to the hellstorm he unleashed. :P
OK, here's a Dragon comparison:
The dragon is going to see the party coming, baring a miracle. He will prebuff and choose the terrain where he has cover and his woodland stride allows him to fly through it without encumbrance. This will restrict missile fire and spells against him, and allow him to use entangle to make his escape should he need to do so. It will also allow him to use alter self, detect thoughts, and his natural stealth to spy out the party in advance.
For the fight he will pre-buff with mirror image, haste and shield. Hence he will have AC35, +1 to hit, and 1d4+2 mirror images. He will open up with his breath weapon and a fireball to soften up the party, then make flyby-attacks with Power Attack (recasting mirror image when needed) or his breath weapon. Once he has whittled down the party this way he will crash in with a Great Cleave bite, and unleash his fury of full-attacks.
If any members of the party distinguish themselves as being able to challenge him, he will focus attacks on them until they are dealt with. If he gets de-buffed, he just circles and buffs himself again.
Dwarf Monk:
He is going to be able to resist the dragon's ranged attacks well, with Improved Evasion avoiding the damage from breath and spell. Damage from breath will be 50% of 40% of 14d6 = 9.8 damage, 50% of 5% of 7d6 = 0.6125. He can ready actions to attack the dragon when it appears, but will have problems hitting: +17 is not going to hit AC35 often, only a 15% chance. 2x(.15x17)x1.05 = 5.355 DPR which won't do much against a dragon. However, the bleed damage could add up unless the dragon has a wand of cure light wounds tucked away somewhere (actually quite likely).
If the dragon closes he can do a lot more, his multiple attacks will help against the mirror images - if he can connect: +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 gives him 25%/25%/5%/5%/5% = 65% chance of a hit. DPR = (.65x17)x1.05 = 11.6025 DPR.
Maneuvers are right out against the dragon, and stunning fist is not going to do much against a +15 Fort save even if it connects. However if it should work while the dragon performs it's flyby attacks, it will really make a mess of the dragon's day. Odds of that are not good: 15% of 30% = 4.5% x 13 = 58.5% chance of getting a successful stunning fist before they are all used, if the fight lasts that long.
The dragon will find him annoying to hurt: +24 vs AC39 only has a 30% chance of hitting if the monk uses ki - admittedly better than he can do to the dragon, but the dragon will likely find other targets he can hit more easily and deal with the monk last - it's not as if this monk is going to do anything bad to him, short of a miracle. Hence on flybys the DPR is (.3x22)x1.1 = 7.26.
In full attacks, it's going to be 2x(.3x22)x1.1 + 2x(.3x16)x1.1 + 2x(.2x8.5)x1.05 + (.2x20)x1.05 = 32.85
Suffice to say the monk will not win a fight of attrition. If he runs out of ki for his defence, he will get seriously slaughtered.
Unorthodax tactics: could the monk leap onto the dragon's back? This would be a grapple attack, with only a 10% chance of success, and the dragon could use terrain to sweep off the monk.
Grokko:
Grokko will take damage from the breath and the fireball, (65% of 14d6) + (35% of 50% of 14d6) = 40.425 damage from the breath, 30% of 7d6 = 7.35 damage. He can also ready an attack on the dragon, and his attacks will hurt: +2 keen Greatsword at +24 for an average 47 will inflict (.5x47)x1.2 = 28.2 DPR.
If Grokko can get in a full attack, he won't inflict significantly more damage than this as his iterative attacks can't really touch the dragon's AC (31 DPR). On the other hand he will score hits and do damage.
The dragon will likely find Grokko a 'worthy' adversary - and will give him the brunt of it's fury. On flyby attacks, it will deal out: 70% of 22 (16.94 DPR) damage without Power Attack, 45% of 37 with it (18.315 DPR).
If the dragon gets in close and personal, it's going to hurt Grokko: 85.155 DPR against Grokko's AC31.
Grokko will not win a fight of attrition either if it comes to slugging matches, but he will more significant damage to the dragon. He can get the dragon's attention and can exchange damage with him for a few rounds, the dragon will likely make a priority of dealing with Grokko if no greater threat appears. In flybys, Grokko actually does more damage to the dragon than the dragon will do to Grokko with just it's bite attack. If Grokko gets a critical hit, he could really ruin the dragon's day and force it to retreat.
Icandu (agile amulet version):
His +19 reflex save and Improved Evasion makes Icandu almost immune to the breath weapon (50% of 10% of 14d6 = 2.45 damage), and with SR makes the fireball is ineffective.
Icandu's attack has a slightly better chance of hitting than the dwarf-monk's, but his damage is less without the Tiger Claw bleed, and attacks are lowered further if using Crane Stance: +18 has a 25% of hitting, so .20x17x1.1 = 3.74 DPR on single attack exchanges.
On a full attack, Icandu can hit for +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 against AC35, for 35%/35%/10%/10%/5% for 17.7225 which is midway between Grokko and the dwarf monk.
Odds of a stunning fist are not great, 20% of 25% = 5% per use, or 65% if he uses all of them.
On flybys, the dragon is going to be foiled by Crane Wing. Icandu is actually living up the monk's good defensive abilities reputation at this stage, but like the dwarf monk he cannot actually do much to stop the dragon, so it can leave him until last.
Full attack, the dragon is attacking AC41 with ki. That give the bite only a 25% chance of a hit, so the DPR works out at: 26.7275. However, Crane Wing will reduce this significantly, by at least half.
The dragon still wins a battle of attrition, but finds it hard to hit Icandu. If getting rid of the rest of the party costs it in hit points, it will have to retreat at this point.
Conclusions:
Grokko will dish the most damage in the shortest period of time, he will get the dragon's attention. He can certainly make himself a target and although he will lose a one-on-one duel, and take serious damage from the breath attacks, he will still be able to dominate the dragon's attention for a round or two at least.
Neither monk can get the dragon's attention in single attacks - the dwarf cannot land attacks, Icandu cannot inflict significant damage. Icandu withstands the dragon's flyby attacks better, but neither monk can get the dragon's attention to the point where it would make them it's target over a caster or resort to a direct assault before it dealt with more serious threats.
If the dragon full-attacks them, it will do seriously nasty damage to both. Icandu takes this better, but has fewer hit points. Unless the dragon by this point has taken significant damage, they are toast. Either could possibly draw the dragon from their fallen comrades with their mobility, but it's not a winning tactic.
On the balance of things, in a party dynamic Grokko is the better character to have around for this encounter. However, Icandu is the most likely to survive it.
Edit: just realised that I forgo the +1 to hit against Grokko and the dwarf monk. Can't be bothered to recalculate DPR on them from the dragon right now!
I do have heavy armor proficiency.Right after I made the barbarian Shuriken Nekogami said I was missing a feat. I explained that I had taken heavy armor proficiency, but herolab did not list it for some reason. .
I know you're up on the rules, Wraith. I almost always post this in threads talking about such (Mithral plate being medium armor), just as a reminder for folks following along.
Advanced Giant Clockwork Soldier
Advanced Clockwork Soldier
CR 8 N Large construct (clockwork)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +2
DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+3 Dex, +2 dodge, +11 natural -1 Size +4 Mage Armor)
hp 74 (8d10+30)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +4
DR 5/adamantine; Immune construct traits
Weaknesses vulnerable to electricity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. Reach 10 Ft (20 Ft with glaive)
Melee* +1 glaive +21/+16 (2d8+20/x3)
Special Attacks latch
STATISTICS
Str 36, Dex 17, Con —, Int —, Wis 15, Cha 5
Base Atk +8; CMB +22 (+24 disarm); CMD 36 (38 vs. disarm)
Feats Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB
SQ efficient winding, proficient, standby, swift reactions
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Efficient Winding (Ex)
A clockwork soldier can function for 2 days per Hit Die every time it is wound.
Latch (Ex)
Clockwork soldiers have specially designed hands that easily grasp and lock onto weapons and objects. A soldier can attempt to disarm or grapple as a standard action without provoking an attack of opportunity, and it receives a +2 bonus on disarm checks. In addition, it receives a +2 bonus to CMD against attempts to disarm it.
Proficient (Ex)
A clockwork soldier is proficient with all simple and martial weapons.
Standby (Ex)
A clockwork soldier can place itself on standby as a standard action. While on standby, a clockwork soldier cannot move or take any actions. It remains aware of its surroundings but takes a -4 penalty on Perception checks. Time spent on standby does not count against the soldier's wind-down duration. A clockwork soldier can exit standby as a swift action—if it does so to initiate combat, it gains a +4 racial bonus on its Initiative check.
Advanced T-Rex
CR 10 N Gargantuan Animal
Init +7; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +39
DEFENSE
AC 30, touch 10, flat-footed 26 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge +16 natural, –4 size +4 mage armor)
hp 207 (18d8+72)
Fort +17, Ref +14, Will +12
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +22 (4d6+26/19–20 plus grab)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks swallow whole (2d8+13, AC 17, hp 15)
STATISTICS
Str 36, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 19, Cha 14
Base Atk +13; CMB +30 (+34 grapple); CMD 44
Feats Dodge, Toughness, Diehard, Endurance, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Perception +39; Racial Modifiers +8 Perception
SQ powerful bite
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Powerful Bite (Ex)
A tyrannosaurus applies twice its Strength modifier to bite damage.
Modified Common Rakshasa
CR 10 LE Medium outsider (native, shapechanger)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge, +9 natural +4 mage armor)
hp 125 (10d10+60)
Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +8
DR 15/good and piercing; SR 25
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 +1 claws +13 (1d4+10), +1 bite +13 (1d6+10)
Special Attacks detect thoughts
Spells Known (CL 7th)
3rd (5/day)—lightning bolt (DC 16), Haste
2nd (7/day)—Scorching Ray, invisibility, minor image
1st (7/day)—charm person (DC 14), mage armor, magic missile, shield, silent image
0th (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 29
Feats Toughness, Dodge, power attack, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +20, Diplomacy +16, Disguise +24, Perception +14, Perform +16, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +18; Racial Modifiers +4 Bluff, +8 Disguise
Languages Common, Infernal, Undercommon
SQ change shape (any humanoid, alter self)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Detect Thoughts (Su)
A rakshasa can detect thoughts as per the spell of the same name (CL 18th). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. When a rakshasa uses this ability, it always functions as if it had spent three rounds concentrating and thus gains the maximum amount of information possible. A creature can resist this effect with a DC 18 Will save. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Treasure; Amulet of Might fists +1
so what, i swapped out the equipment and swapped out 2 feats each on the Rhakshsasa and Dino. i swapped 2 spells on the rhkshasa. i consider these to be advancements, and they are all prebuffed with mage armor. the clockwork soldier has the giant and advanced simple templates while the dino is simply advanced.
it's an EL 16 encounter with 8 Clockwork soldiers (shock troops) 2 of these super dinos and 2 of these Rhakshasas.
the first round assumes both Rhaksasas will open up with haste.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
so what, i swapped out the equipment and swapped out 2 feats each on the Rhakshsasa and Dino. i swapped 2 spells on the rhkshasa. i consider these to be advancements, and they are all prebuffed with mage armor. the clockwork soldier has the giant and advanced simple templates while the dino is simply advanced.it's an EL 16 encounter with 8 Clockwork soldiers (shock troops) 2 of these super dinos and 2 of these Rhakshasas.
the first round assumes both Rhaksasas will open up with haste.
Swapping things out can have a bigger impact than originally intended. Not all features are equal even though they take equal slots. I haven't compared the builds with the originals, but if you changed the originals then you may have changed the encounter expectations.
the idea was to find a challenging encounter for a 13th level party. the dinos and soldiers have 20 foot reach. the rhakshasas, are buffers and switch hitters when not buffing.
8 clockwork soldier are taken out by the caster with AoE evocation spells or stalled by battle field control. That keeps them out for at least a round or 2.
Their Reflex will not do them any good.
The Rakshasa is good for defense but its offense sucks. It can be saved for last.
The barbarian and the fight can tag team a dino. Even with swallowing being use the dino drops in 3 rounds. I used the claws in an earlier post.
Claw x2 (Beast Totem, Lesser) +15 x2 (1d8+18/20/x3) and
. Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+18/20/x2)
Using Raging Brutality not power attacking
47.66 DPR
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The T-Rex will do 37.68 to the barbarian, and that is including power attack. The barbarian has more HP.
If the T-Rex is wary o
Once the barbarian cuts its way out of the dino's stomach swallow whole is shut down. It has a wisdom of 19. Trying to eat the barbarian again might seem like a bad idea.
If the T-Rex is wary of that then the greatsword comes into play. Any full attack get 111.72. The party fighter should be able to hand the other T-Rex.
After the T-Rex is done any clockwork soldiers are one rounded that are still up. Heck, I could have added in haste from the casters if decided to go that route. I guess the cleric could have dropped blessing of fervor if the wizard has agree to provide battlefield control.
The T-rex fight is much like the fight with orca-wolf now that I think about it.
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pretty hard to fit 8 large opponents in a single AoE. whether for damage or battlefield control. and getting close enough to a T-rex, depending on circumstance can provoke many attacks of oppurtunity from 10 foes with a reach of 20 feet. all rebuffed with mage armor, and the Rhakshasas may open up with haste. giving the dinos 2 attacks at +23 and the soldiers, 2 attacks at +22 and one at +17. i wouldn't underestimate a 20 foot reach.
mindless constructs are also immune to the illusion/enchantment schools. being that those 2 schools are mind effecting. so the silent image wall trick wouldn't work.
charging barbarian better be prepared for up to 10 potential attacks of oppurtunity. sny hits are a minimum of 20something damage apiece.
If the creatures are close enough to each get an attack of opportunity on the charging barbarian, then they are probably close enough for some area of effects from the casters.
Darn those constructs are large. Oh well, hoepfully battlefield control handles this for a round or 2.
A 20 foot reach or a 10 foot reach is the same to me. Either way the barbarian is eating an AoE if he wins initiative. If he does not then T-Rex pulls him into an adjacent square with the grapple check. If BiG-T is Hasted, and the barbarian is hasted.
With both of them hasted BiG T goes up to about 71, and the barbarian lands at 68.
The barbarian takes more damage, but should still be able to kill it.
IIRC the monk does less damage and takes less damage because of his high AC.
T-Rex does better against Ciretose's monk. With haste he does 60 points of damage per round if he is smart enough to not grapple on the first attack. This however assumes the monk keeps allowing two attacks, and that it goes after the T-Rex.
The monk is better off going after the Rakshasa. With a CMD of 29 it is something the monk can grapple.
pretty hard to fit 8 large opponents in a single AoE. whether for damage or battlefield control. and getting close enough to a T-rex, depending on circumstance can provoke many attacks of oppurtunity from 10 foes with a reach of 20 feet. all rebuffed with mage armor, and the Rhakshasas may open up with haste. giving the dinos 2 attacks at +23 and the soldiers, 2 attacks at +22 and one at +17. i wouldn't underestimate a 20 foot reach.
mindless constructs are also immune to the illusion/enchantment schools. being that those 2 schools are mind effecting. so the silent image wall trick wouldn't work.
charging barbarian better be prepared for up to 10 potential attacks of oppurtunity. sny hits are a minimum of 20something damage apiece.
Don't play the barbarian like he is stupid.
1.If they are that close together most of them are in AoO range.
2. The first one would get pounced. Taking that many AoO's just makes not sense.
Constructs are not immune to illusions either.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).• Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
edit:If the illusion has the mind-affecting tag then yes, but otherwise no.
I should mention, you can't make an attack of opportunity if you're flat footed. So if the Barbarian wins Initiative, he won't be eating AoOs at all.
I should mention, you can't make an attack of opportunity if you're flat footed. So if the Barbarian wins Initiative, he won't be eating AoOs at all.
For some reason I thought T-Rex had combat reflexes. I don't know why, but I did. In that case then T-Rex loses had of his hit points in 1 round if nothing is in the way.
Most of the OP's post are based on personal bias, and have nothing to do with facts. I think Ashiel took his entire post apart on the first or 2nd page.
Most of the OP's post are based on personal bias, and have nothing to do with facts. I think Ashiel took his entire post apart on the first or 2nd page.
J<(^.^)>|=
I'm with the others on this encounter, against a party this is not particularly challenging.
Soldier:
The mooks are there for battlefield control to tie down or evocation to take out - one wizard with a wand of lightning bolt is going to do a lot of damage to these things. Failing that either of the monks or the barbarian would have a field day because they are not armed - the barbarian has his claws, after all.
T-Rex:
Not a major threat, these are bags of hit points to the barbarian and the monks.
Rhakshasa:
The barbarian will stomp all over these guys he does so much damage that their DR will be overwhelmed. The monks will have to grapple them to be effective - but they can, that's the important thing. Unlike many things with DR, these guys are vulnerable to maneuvers.
Edit: in my post above I also forgot the barbarian's DR. Grrr. That reduces the damage he takes by a lot, and perhaps gives him more of an edge against the dragon.
Next up, I'll do a decently high encounter.
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Why must the monk grapple to be effective? The monk has shruiken that do piercing damage and add strength, and believe I took deadly aim (I'm on a smart phone so I don't have it in front of me).
It is a pretty easy encounter.
The dragon was harder offensively. Defensively the monk is in great shape, although you gave me to much credit with ki (I can't ready that), and not enough with improved evasion (1/2 or nothing) but if any of the casters have any kind of wall, ready to throw that up when the dragon tries a flyby since his fly skill is poor.
Thud.
It is a hard fight, but the dragon is in his perfect setting with time to prep so it should be.
Glad this is still going, good work all around.
Why must the monk grapple to be effective? The monk has shruiken that do piercing damage and add strength, and believe I took deadly aim (I'm on a smart phone so I don't have it in front of me).
Rakshasa's have DR 15/good and piercing, unless someone has Bless Weapon tucked away, shuriken aren't going to even get the rakshasa's attention, and your unarmed strikes are going to average 2 damage per hit, which is nothing.
As for Deadly Aim, it suffers the same problem as Power Attack: if your chances to hit are not very good to begin with, you gain nothing and sometimes lose a lot.
+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 vs AC29, which is 45%/45%/20%/20%/5% for 1d2+6 for 135% hits DPR = 10.125
With Deadly Aim you get: 30%/30%/5%/5%/5% for 1d2+12 for 75% hits DPR = 10.125
If your chances to hit were better (better than 50% with your first attack after adjustment as a rule of thumb), it would work.
It is a pretty easy encounter.
I agree. Situation could count for a lot - if the clockwork soldiers surrounded the party they could be a pain and would be hard to tie down or destroy. If the T-rexs attacked the party casters, they could be nasty.
The dragon was harder offensively. Defensively the monk is in great shape, although you gave me to much credit with ki (I can't ready that), and not enough with improved evasion (1/2 or nothing) but if any of the casters have any kind of wall, ready to throw that up when the dragon tries a flyby since his fly skill is poor.
Thud.
I agree. I didn't even factor in any gear for the dragon, either. Walls would be good, I agree, and then everyone can pile in and full-attack before the dragon gets his bearings.
The main point, though, is that the barbarian can get in a single hit better than the monk's multiple hits. Best option for the monk it to flurry and take out as many mirror images so that the serious hitters can go to town. Otherwise, while the monks can survive, they can't really contribute too much. That's my real problem with the class: the dragon can ignore them until everyone else is dead.
It is a hard fight, but the dragon is in his perfect setting with time to prep so it should be.
Agreed. I'm afraid a party would rather have the barbarian than the monk to handle it, though.
Glad this is still going, good work all around.
It's an interesting debate. It's not telling me something I didn't already know, though, sadly.
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I've been following this debate for a while, but right now, all I have to say is that Dabbler's encounter analysis are currently the most interesting and entertaining thing in this thread. And that is saying a lot, considering this is a monk thread with both Ashiel and ciretose.
I'm actually looking foward for more builds/encounter arguments just so I get to see more of Dabbler's combat analysis.
Keep up the good work, man!
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I agree. So far I think the monk is competitive, which was the goal criteria I started with, since the statement was that they were far inferior. Both are helping the party and both are very useful to the party. Neither could be described as "aquaman" to the party, I don't think.
I've said from the beginning the monk could use a specific improvement to attack bonus to unarmed strike (I think it is fine otherwise) and in all the encounters so far the only real issue has been if the monk can hit.
I don't think I min maxed the build to all hell (he has average charisma for a dwarf and everything else is 10 plus) and I don't think I went crazy with weird exotic stuff, and the monk is at least competitive with the barbarian in usefulness.
I think if they add something to increase the attack bonus for an unarmed monk (a tattoo perhaps) that costs a reasonable amount, all concerns I have are resolved.. The amulet of mighty fists is not reasonably priced IMHO, particular considering the slot issue (it takes one) and the +5 cap.
If you can increase the attack bonus, and not the damage, it wouldn't break anything, the monk could still be an effective damage dealer.
Still, even without this improvement I don't think we've had a challenge where the monk is ridiculously outshined by the Barbarian.
Thank you, Lemmy!
As promised, here is another option for a boss-fight: a Horned Devil.
This one again is a group fight situation, so I will just examine what the individual builds can and cannot do against this monster - and what it will do to them!
Rather than my original system, I'll consider each feature of the monster in turn:
Fear Aura: This is important because it will effect each character, and with DC23 resisting is not a given. All three have +16 to their will saves, so each is equally vulnerable with a 30% chance for failure. If we assume each has appropriate ammunition (easiest and cheapest option to use blessed silver/mithral ammo), each can avoid this and deliver some ranged goodness:
Grokko can use a longbow, which is an excellent weapon, but of all of them hits the worst in missile combat.
Dwarf monk can use some shuriken and this will do a LOT of damage - 1d2+6 per hit is a lot. However his hit chance is 15% at best. Deadly Aim still doesn't help him, though.
Icandu does the worst in terms of damage, only 1d2+1, but has the best chances to hit (20%).
Overall, if the three resort to ranges combat to stay out of the fear aura, the dwarf monk has the greatest chance to do significant damage.
In response, the horned devil can either teleport next to them, move next to them (it can fly) or use it's lightning bolts or fireballs. The two monks will laugh at the latter, but Grokko will suffer.
Trading Blows:
None of the three have decent options for getting past the devil's DR. All will need oil of blessed weapon or similar just to stop the devil's regeneration. Silver weapon blanch could be effective to all three as well. Another possible advantage is if there is a paladin in the party with Aura of Justice, in which case the devil is toast. The two monks benefit most from this, as they can unload the greater number of attacks.
In my calculations below I have assumed un-buffed attacks.
The devil's attacks are brutal. +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun DC27 Fort for 1d4 rounds), bite +22 (2d8+5), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound 2d6 bleed)
The stunning blow is the most dangerous: DC27 is not a pushover for any of the three. Icandu is most vulnerable, his low con means his save is only +12 (30% chance of saving) - however, his Crane Wing and high AC also mean he is the least likely to get tagged with it. Dwarf monk has a 40% chance of making the save, and a decent enough AC. Grokko has the highest chance of being hit, but the best Fort save too, a 70% chance of making the save.
Actual damage they are likely to take is serious:
Grokko will get hit 80%/55%/30% of 18 damage, + 60% of 14, + 60% of 12 + bleed, all less DR 6/- = (1.65x12)x1.05 + (.6x8)x1.05 + (.6x6)x1.05 = 29.61 DPR + possible bleed and stun.
Grokko can dish it back: +24/+15/+10 (2d6+40/17-20/x2) against AC35 yields 50%/5%/5% for (.5x37)x1.2 + (.1x37)x1.05 = 26.085
This is pretty even, but the devil's regeneration will clinch it for him: he will win a straight duke-out. On the flip side, he can't ignore Grokko.
Dwarf monk will resist better, with AC39 with ki and self-buffs. He will be hit 40%/15%/5% + 20% + 20% for (.6x18)x1.05 + (.2x26)x1.05 = 16.8 DPR + possible stun and bleed. The problem here is that the dwarf monk that fails his save against the stun is toast; his AC drops and the devil can pummel him to death.
Counter-attacking the dwarf monk will hit +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 for 25%/25%/5%/5%/5% for (.65x7)x1.05 = 4.7775 which is less than the devil can regenerate per round.
Spring-attacking, the dwarf monk will suffer worse, as the devil can ready it's Improved Vital Strike to hit more often for 6d6+11+stun.
The devil will grind down the dwarf monk in just a few rounds...or he can just ignore him and deal with the rest of the party. The dwarf could try some maneuvers, but against a CMB of 44 he has little chance of success.
Icandu will fair the best defensively for as long as his ki lasts, as AC41 leaves the devil with only 30%/5%/5% + 10% + 10%. The chances of getting a second hit in a given round are very small, less than 10%, and with Crane Wing that second attack is vital.
Problem is, Icandu is not going to do much to the devil: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 vs AC35 leaves us with 30%/30%/5%/5%/5% for (.6x7)x1.1 + (.15x7)x1.05 = 5.7225 DPR.
So while Icandu can stalemate the devil for as long as his ki lasts, or until the demon gets lucky, he isn't doing much back to the devil. Again, like the dragon it can ignore him, just as it can ignore the dwarf monk. After that, if it chooses to kill him, it just wears him out of ki.
Final conclusion: Grokko can get the devil's attention, but will last the least amount of time for it to kill. He may get lucky if it has already been injured, or he gets lucky on the dice, but he is going to get hammered if he is unlucky. The two monks...can run away if the rest of the party dies. They cannot significantly influence the fight short of the devil making a mistake or a miracle.
If they have buffs that allow them to bypass DR, then it's a different story as the monks will actually be able to score some damage. Probably not significant damage, and not on Grokko's scale, but they will actually be able to have an influence on the outcome of the fight. With the same buffs Grokko will hammer the devil hard.
APL +4 encounter as a lone boss fight for a 13th level group
Black Dragon, Wyrm
Hissing green acid drips from the fanged maw of this black-scaled, horned dragon.
Wyrm Black Dragon
CR 17
XP 102,400
CE Huge dragon (water)
Init +3; Senses dragon senses; Perception +31
Aura frightful presence (330 ft., DC 26)
DEFENSE
AC 40, touch 7, flat-footed 40 (-1 Dex, +33 natural, -2 size)
hp 324 (24d12+168)
Fort +21, Ref +13, Will +19
DR 20/magic; Immune acid, paralysis, sleep, SR 28
OFFENSE
Speed 60 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +35 (2d8+18 plus 4d6 acid), 2 claws +34 (2d6+12), 2 wings +32 (1d8+6), tail slap +32 (2d6+18)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks acid pool (55-ft. radius), acidic bite, breath weapon (100-ft. line, DC 29, 22d6 acid), corrupt water, crush (Small creatures, DC 29, 2d8+18)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 24th, concentration +28)
At will—darkness (110-ft. radius), insect plague, plant growth
Spells Known (CL 13th, concentration +17)
6th (4/day)—acid fog, contingency
5th (6/day)—cone of cold (DC 19), dominate person, wall of force
4th (7/day)—arcane eye, black tentacles, dimension door, enervation
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, heroism, hold person (DC 17), slow (DC 17)
2nd (7/day)—blur, glitterdust (DC 16), invisibility, summon swarm, whispering wind
1st (7/day)—alarm, mage armor, magic missile, obscuring mist, true strike
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, light, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance
STATISTICS
Str 35, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 18, Wis 21, Cha 18
Base Atk +24; CMB +38; CMD 47 (51 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Combat Expertise, Flyby Attack, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Vital Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Stealth), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Fly +18, Handle Animal +28, Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (history) +31, Knowledge (geography) +31, Perception +34,Spellcraft +31, Stealth +24, Swim +47; Racial Modifiers +8 Swim
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc
SQ speak with reptiles, swamp stride, water breathing
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Acid Pool (Su)
An ancient or older black dragon can use its breath weapon to create an acid pool as a standard action. This acid pool has a radius of 55 feet. When an acid pool is created, anyone inside its area takes 22d6 points of acid damage (Reflex half). Any creature that starts its turn touching this pool takes damage, but can make a Reflex save for half. Each round, the total damage dice of the pool is halved (10d6 round 2, 5d6 round 3, 2d6 round 4, 1d6 round 5) until the result would be less than 1d6. The acid pool floats on water, and deals damage to anything on the surface.
Acidic Bite (Su)
At old age, a black dragon's bite deals an additional 2d6 points of acid damage. An ancient dragon's damage increases to 4d6, and a great wrym's to 6d6.
Corrupt Water (Sp)
Once per day an adult or older black dragon can stagnate 10 cubic feet of still water, making it foul and unable to support water-breathing life. The ability spoils liquids containing water. Liquid-based magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature's possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to the dragon’s frightful presence) or become ruined. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Its range is equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence.
Crush (Ex)
A flying or jumping Huge or larger dragon can land on foes as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A crush attack affects as many creatures as fit in the dragon's space. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, it must succeed at a combat maneuver check as normal. Pinned foes take damage from the crush each round if they don't escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus.
Speak with Reptiles (Sp)
A young or older black dragon gains the constant spell-like ability to speak with reptiles. This functions as speak with animals, but only with reptilian animals.
Swamp Stride (Ex)
A very young or older black dragon can move through bogs and quicksand without penalty at its normal speed.
Water Breathing (Ex)
A black dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.
Attention!
Variant Monster
This is a Variant Monster.
This is a Variant Monster based on a monster presented in the Bestiary. The full stats were not provided by Paizo, so some calculations were made.
Credit
Conversion by: Broven
ECOLOGY
Environment warm marshes
Organization solitary
Treasure triple
Tactics; Flyby power attacking bite at+28 for 2d8+39 and swallow wizard, flying away. after wizard is downed in a few rounds from a safe distance, repeat against cleric then rogue, then pepper martials with breath weapons and spells from a safe distance. kiting them.
I agree. So far I think the monk is competitive, which was the goal criteria I started with, since the statement was that they were far inferior. Both are helping the party and both are very useful to the party. Neither could be described as "aquaman" to the party, I don't think.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this assessment. In some circumstances, the monk has been able to contribute effectively. In one case he actually had a chance (not a good one) of soloing the for (the Oni demon) if there was no party support. In two cases so far, the monk's contribution is that the enemy might waste a round discovering the monk was not a significant threat, after which his sole contribution would be to run away successfully once the rest of the party were dead. While this proves the monk is survivable, it also means the monk is not able to contribute much to the party.
Sorry Ciretose, but in every case, the barbarian is the character the party of iconics would take with them. Icandu might be useful to a standard party lacking a traspspringer, but I am starting to think in many of these scenarios a rogue would actually prove more effective.
Bear in mind, these are two of the best monks that we could build, compared against a moderately good barbarian. The barbarian has proven to be able to effectively contribute to a party dynamic in every case we have examined.
The main issue in these cases is the inability of the monk to score actual hits and get past DR. This cripples his stunning fist (we have not yet set up a case where a target is immune), and renders his DPR down to minimal levels.
I looked at my monk design from the other thread, and worked out that using that design Icandu he could be hitting for around +24/+24/+19/+19/+14 for 1d6+16 17-20/x2. Not a huge difference, but enough to make the difference between negligible damage and hurting the enemy so that the monk cannot be ignored (around 17 DPR vs the horned devil). This is the state of affairs we want to achieve, I think: we do not want to challenge Grokko's damage output, or the fighter's hitting power, but we do want to be able to score hits and have the foe notice them.
Edit: with a potential AC of 44, even the barbarian is going to have problems with the wyrm black dragon above. If it's de-buffed to AC40, Grokko can hit it around one round in four, one in two if hasted, and the monks can...run away after everyone is dead. Again.
Dabbler, what Saves did you use? Did you factor in Grokko raging? Grokko is Superstitious, so he gets +5 vs Spells, Spell-like Abilities, and Supernatural effects. Fear Aura is a Supernatural Effect..
Also, was Fear Aura calculated into the effects of them closing in for melee? Because if it wasn't I'd say things turn even more of an advantage in Grokko's case because he has the slimmest chance of failing the Will save (+25 vs Spells, Spell-like Abilities, and +21 vs Supernatural effects) as he needs to roll a 1 to fail.
[Edit] Edited for wrong numbers.
Horned Devil fight
I have +25 when raging against the stun devils 27 fort save. That mean I only fail if I roll a nat 1. That means my chance of success is 95%.
If this is really in the context of a party I should be getting hasted also or Grokko will have a long chat with some casters if he lives. :)
Dabbler, what Saves did you use? Did you factor in Grokko raging? Grokko is Superstitious, so he gets +5 vs Spells, Spell-like Abilities, and Supernatural effects. Fear Aura is a Supernatural Effect..
Also, was Fear Aura calculated into the effects of them closing in for melee? Because if it wasn't I'd say things turn even more of an advantage in Grokko's case because he has the slimmest chance of failing the Will save (+21 vs Spells, Spell-like Abilities, and Supernatural effects) as he needs to roll a 1 to fail.
You are right, I forgot that and that makes Grokko very resistant to the fear effect - much more so than the two monks (the fear effect is not a charm spell, so no Still Mind). That also makes Grokko most effective in melee, as I did not factor the two together. The other two would take less damage but would probably flee the fight before Grokko would have fallen. That's made of fail as far as the party dynamic is concerned.
Edit:
@Wraithstrike - yes, haste really doubles Grokko's damage output in one swoop, while it doesn't make a huge difference to the monks. And yes, I was just looking at raw saves, Grokko's raging advantage basically means the stun is ineffective against him.
APL +4 encounter as a lone boss fight for a 13th level group
** spoiler omitted **...
Getting to wizards is not that easy, and barring an ambush it won't happen. The dragon has a stealth of +24. The barbarian has a perception of +25. He can cast invis, but spells are assumed to be cast in a loud voice so he won't be doing that steathily. That takes invis out of the picture.
Where are the rules for flying off with someone? :)
I have not read all the post in here, but this encounters are just hack and slash or they have some other hindrances. Because it is clear to me that a monk would never win a DPR contest against a Barbarian.
What else can the monk do?
Stunning fist - has to hit and do damage, and most of these creatures have saves that make it less than 30% effective even once you achieve that! With odds to hit of 30% or less, that means yoru chance of a given stunning fist succeeding are 9%. You would use up on average eleven uses of stunning fist to get one success, and your chances of the fight lasting long enough are nearly non-existent. Don't get me wrong, I'd try it, but it's basically praying for a miracle.
Maneuvers - have less chance of success against most things than just hitting them. The one encounter in which this came into play was against the Rakshasa's, as they had low enough CMD to have a chance of success and the monk couldn't do anything to get through their DR 15/good and silver DR.
Sorry, but actually hitting the target is all the monk can do to affect it, and in most cases he's crap at it.
the easy way to have a foe notice your hits.
pick up a 2handed reach weapon and combat reflexes
or focus on archery.
I mean, it is just the mosnters and the Pcs punching it others or it have more?
We are assuming a party dynamic and asking what the monk can contribute in many cases. And no, that does not mean the monk can be buffed to the seven heavens - if you need to do that to make a class effective at what it is meant to do, then it isn't effective at that task which is what we are looking at.
the easy way to have a foe notice your hits.
pick up a 2handed reach weapon and combat reflexes
or focus on archery.
Or to put it another way: Don't be a monk.
Edit: unless it is a sohei or zen archer, but then that is effectively not being a monk...
Bear in mind, these are two of the best monks that we could build, compared against a moderately good barbarian. The barbarian has proven to be able to effectively contribute to a party dynamic in every case we have examined.
This is a good point. Grokko was my first barbarian build. I stole the idea of superstition, but the build is my own. There are people on the build that build better than I do, and that have more experience with barbarians. I also had 12000 or about 10000 thousand GP if you don't count the bow, and the fly potion I mentioned left over.
There has not been a fight yet where the barbarian could be ignored. The barbarian has gotten his butt kicked(taken a lot of damage), but his ability to keep the enemy's attention makes it easier on the rest of the party. In the cases were the monk's damage was negligible(to be more accurate not the primary concern) the baddy would have just focused on the fighter.
the easy way to have a foe notice your hits.
pick up a 2handed reach weapon and combat reflexes
or focus on archery.
AKA Sohei and Zen Archer, we specifically disregarded those two archetypes because everyone knows they are the best options for the Monk (Martial Artist is also a contender)
I proppose to choose encounters that target the barbarian weakkness and let the monk shine. If the barbarian still wins or at least draw then the dispute is over.
Flick back a few pages and you find the Oni encounter, the monks did better than the barbarian against his fireballs and scorching rays. Otherwise, he seriously hammered the Oni. The Crane-style monk Icandu with fire resistance could use spring attack and wear down the Oni bit by bit, but it would not actually be much use in a group-fight. That was the only real monk success, yet in terms of contributing to a party, the barbarian was deemed more useful to a party even in that encounter.
I proppose to choose encounters that target the barbarian weakkness and let the monk shine. If the barbarian still wins or at least draw then the dispute is over.
The debate is this: If four of the iconic characters from Pathfinder (Valeros, Merisiel, Seoni, Krya for example) were to walk into a bar and are looking to pick up a 5th member, which would they choose?
You propose to pick scenarios that specifically favor the Monk over the Barbarian. How would that determine that the Monk is better than the Barbarian as a potential 5th candidate? We're tossing up a variety of scenarios, and determining which class is the better candidate.
Ciretose asserts that the Monk is as good, if not better, than the Barbarian or other classes. So far, the Barbarian has contributed more to the scenarios than the Monk has in every case.
The one aspect the Monk has better than the proposed Barbarian build, is the Monk has more skills. However, the Rogue included in the party, is better than the Monk at skills. So just about any situation the proposed Monk builds go handle via skills, the Rogue could probably handle better.
That's why we're defaulting to combat. Also, the Monk is supposed to be built as a melee combatant (barring certain archetypes, the Sohei and Zen Archer) so we need to try and build encounters around that.
The Ghaele Azata that spanned some 300 posts or so, had very decent ranged combat, she was also a full cleric, and a full martial character. She was better than the Monk, or Barbarian in every way. Could hit just as hard, could self buff to hit harder, and if needed, could retreat, heal up, and come back and strike at range.
Ranged combat is where both classes suck, so we've avoided using ranged combat.
Truthfully, the best bet either class has, is melee combat, and in melee combat, the Monk has been, at best, mediocre.