Am I the only one who hates monks?


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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Here.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Here.

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

Purchasing permanent spells, yay or nay? I'm fine either way, but it does help if you are able.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Scalwith wrote:
I suddenly have the urge to play a dwarf monk as a boxer "oi pointy ears outta the way and let a real fighter do the job"
Go for it! Orrick is a blast to play.

I am going dwarf monk as well. Steel soul is awesome when mixed with all high saves and spell resistance.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Sadly, I've not had enough chances to play him. :(


Orrick... Where do I know that name from?

Anyway...

And here we go on another build x build jorney. Yay... /sarcasm

I've seen how these go. IIRC no point was ever made, proven or disproven. Although it was cool seeing some unusual builds (In fact, I wish Bob_Loblaw would post a character build every week! I loved his Halfling sling-wielding fighter! But not as much as I loved his Dwarf fighter!)
Honestly, I still can't see a way to actually put these characters into play in a manner that we can all see. Maybe a PbP, but that takes long.

Also, unless two people share the exact same level of game mastery and character build priorities, this accounts a lot more for the player than the class itself.

e.g.: I know nothing about Cavalier builds. I've not even seen them in play, as nobody in my group showed interest in the class. I don't know how strong or versatile they are. But even if they are OP somehow, I'm pretty sure many people in this forum can build a rogue or monk that would be much more useful than any cavalier of mine.

So, yeah, as much as I enjoy seeing interesting builds. IMO, all it does is derail the thread into a very peculiar form of PvP.

PS: Bob, if you are reading this, know that Turret is still kicking asses in one of the campaigns I'm in!

Liberty's Edge

Throwing up a rough draft to get some feedback as I go. Besides, a rough draft is the kind of frame of reference you can discuss and work with. I have a little gold left, but not much.

Spoiler:

===============================================
13th Level Dwarf Monk
==================================================
Init +7; Perception +11
Hp: 127 (8 + 2 Con + 6.5 X5)
AC: 30, touch 26, flat 25 (+6 Wis,+4 Monk +4 dex +1 Dodge, +4 Bracer) +5 from barkskin for 130 minutes per ki point.
SR: 23
Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +16 (all +4 against spells or spell like abilities) (+2 vs Enchantments)
==================================================
Speed 60 ft.
Melee: Unarmed +17/+12 (2d8+8), Flurry Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+8) (-3 +6 for power attacks)
Ranged: Shruiken +15/10 (1d2+6), Flurry +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d2+6) (-3+6 for deadly aim)
==================================================
Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18(12+2), Int 10, Wis 16 (14+2) Cha 8 (10-2)
BAB +9, CMB +19 (21 disarm, 23 with sai), CMD 34
Traits - +2 Initiative, Wisdom in the flesh (Steath)
Feats - 1st Steel Soul
(Monk 1) Dodge
(Monk 2) Deflect Arrows
3rd Power Attack
5th Tiger
(Monk 6) Improved Disarm
7th Deadly Aim
9th Tiger Claws (Unarmed slashing, 1d4 bleed on crit)
(monk 10) Spring Attack
11th Tiger Pounce
13th Dimensional Agility

Special abilities: Stunning fist (DC 22), Quiggong (barkskin), Purity of body (immune to all diseases), Diamond Body (immune to all poisons), Improved evasion, Wholeness of body (self heal 13 hp for 2 ki points)

Skills Ranks – Acrobatics 12, Appraise 0, Bluff -1, Climb 14 , Craft -, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device -, Disguise -1, Escape Artist 13 , Fly 4 , Heal (0), Handle Animal -2, Intimidate -1 Knowledge [History] (+4), Knowledge [Religion] (+4), Linguistics –, Perception (+22), Ride 8, Sense Motive 14, Sleight of Hand - , Spellcraft, Stealth +20 , Survival +7, Swim 10, UMD -

Equipment - Belt of Physical Might +4, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6, Monk Robe, Bracers of Armor +4, Amulet of might fist +2, Handy Haversack, Masterwork Cold iron Sai, ring of protection +1

Consumables: Fly Potion, Invisibility Potion,

I am immune to all diseases and poisons, which is nice. I have really good saves that are down right ridiculous against magic, which combined with my spell resistance and insanely high touch AC makes pretty useful.

Not to mention I can dimension door and attack with a stunning fist in the same round (Abundant step is a move action), an my stunning fist is a DC 22 fort save. Casters hate that. And with a +22 perception and +20 stealth, and darkvision I've got a good chance of seeing them and sneaking up into range to pull this off.

Against Melee I generally will try to disarm them with my sai to bring the fight down to more equal footing, when possible using spring attacks to take advantage of my mobility and set up so they are moving to me, and not my moving to them.

Barkskin kicks my AC up to 35, and I'm able to knock that up to 39 with a ki point if I need it.

I get 5 attacks normally, with a 6th one at full BAB available if I spend a ki point.

I have 12 ki points, which is a good amount, thought about taking extra ki but took deadly aim instead to give me some decent damage with the Shruiken if I need it. I may add some special material shruiken to help with getting around DR.

This is largely a mage killer type build that can hold it's own in standard combat.

Again, rough draft, feel free to point out mistakes/suggestions. I await the Barbarian, etc...

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

Orrick... Where do I know that name from?

Anyway...

And here we go on another build x build jorney. Yay... /sarcasm

I've seen how these go. IIRC no point was ever made, proven or disproven. Although it was cool seeing some unusual builds (In fact, I wish Bob_Loblaw would post a character build every week! I loved his Halfling sling-wielding fighter! But not as much as I loved his Dwarf fighter!)
Honestly, I still can't see a way to actually put these characters into play in a manner that we can all see. Maybe a PbP, but that takes long.

Also, unless two people share the exact same level of game mastery and character build priorities, this accounts a lot more for the player than the class itself.

e.g.: I know nothing about Cavalier builds. I've not even seen them in play, as nobody in my group showed interest in the class. I don't know how strong or versatile they are. But even if they are OP somehow, I'm pretty sure many people in this forum can build a rogue or monk that would be much more useful than any cavalier of mine.

So, yeah, as much as I enjoy seeing interesting builds. IMO, all it does is derail the thread into a very peculiar form of PvP.

PS: Bob, if you are reading this, know that Turret is still kicking asses in one of the campaigns I'm in!

Turret was awesome. Yet another reason I love build discussions, you learn things and get NPC (or PCs) you can take back to your home game.

Beats the hell out of the wall of text lectures on theorycraft, IMHO.

Also, a well built cavalier is a charge of death. I hope someone posts one.


Don't get me wrong, I love some build-posting. I just don't think they add much to the "class X is (un)balanced" discussion.

It, at most, says "I'm rule/suck so much making builds of this particular class/race/whatever that I can create a character that is weaker/stronger than yours."

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I love some build-posting. I just don't think they add much to the "class X is (un)balanced" discussion.

It, at most, says "I'm rule/suck so much making builds of this particular class/race/whatever that I can create a character that is weaker/stronger than yours."

I think the class X is unbalanced discussions generally suck because people want to post walls and walls of text about theory and don't want to actually sit down and compare full builds.

Reading post after post about how obvious X fact is doesn't really seem to add anything but walls and walls of text about theory that is apparently so "obvious" that actually testing it makes no sense.

When looking at the different ways to approach the question, however flawed, building builds is the lesser of the evils, IMHO.

Liberty's Edge

One day I hope to have a build contest where each side tries to compete against the other side using the build they think is weaker.

You learn more arguing from the other side than just defending your point.

I am completely open to being wrong on this comparison, and if I am that gives more ammo to the Devs to make changes if they are needed. I actually think the monk needs a boost to ability to hit, but defense is not a problem IMHO.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
Orrick... Where do I know that name from?

Dunno. I figure it's pretty common...

Scarab Sages

Going back to the original post, some say, "It's black!"; some say, "It's white!". There are many shades of grey (and yellow and cyan and magenta).


Do we really need to go back to the original post?


Lemmy wrote:
Orrick... Where do I know that name from?

It's the name of a vacuum cleaner.

Quote:

Although it was cool seeing some unusual builds (In fact, I wish Bob_Loblaw would post a character build every week! I loved his Halfling sling-wielding fighter! But not as much as I loved his Dwarf fighter!)

Honestly, I still can't see a way to actually put these characters into play in a manner that we can all see. Maybe a PbP, but that takes long.

I'm glad you liked them. I really wanted to work more on the dwarf. I loved his personality more than anything. I could actually have a ton of fun building characters that are racially focused.

Quote:
Also, unless two people share the exact same level of game mastery and character build priorities, this accounts a lot more for the player than the class itself.

This is something I tried to mention in the other threads and that Ashiel mentioned as well. I love building characters and I think I can do a decent job of showcasing some class concepts. That does mean the class is playable but it doesn't mean that the class is playable by anyone. It means that some players know what they are doing. I feel the same way about every class, especially casters. I think casters are seen as easy because people spend more time with them and learn them more. They are incredibly fun and therefore more interesting to read up on and end up learning about.

Quote:
PS: Bob, if you are reading this, know that Turret is still kicking asses in one of the campaigns I'm in!

That makes me really happy. I didn't spend as much time on him as I wanted and I would probably have done a few things differently had I taken a few more days with him. It does bring a smile to my face to see that one of my builds is seeing some use and is fun to play!


Ashiel wrote:

I actually think that the smaller the party, the more punished niche classes are. In a party of 3 people, I'd probably never want a fighter. In a party of 6, then a Fighter would likely be more welcome. Mostly because the smaller the team the more likely you will need someone who isn't overly focused and is more capable in different situations.

With a party of cleric, bard, and wizard, I'd rather have a Ranger or Paladin for a front-liner. In a party with 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 bard, 1 paladin or ranger, then bringing in a Fighter might be more logical (you have most of your problem solving covered).

This is another problem with builds. They are looked at in a vacuum. We don't know the make up of the rest of the party. If I were to play in a 3-person party I would probably want a barbarian or ranger, cleric or paladin, and wizard or sorcerer. If the party is a 4-person party, then I would be looking at a different composition. Of course I would want people to play whatever they want. It's just what I would like to see. If I ended up in a party of three halfling monks, I would hope that the GM would take it into account and that the monks are different enough from each other to not be clones.

I agree that posting builds does more to showcase what the player can do with a particular class than it does to show what an average player can bring to the class. It's nice to see interesting ideas though and I like reading through builds and seeing how people think.

One thing I have noticed, when Ashiel brings a build it's to show what can be done with a class but to stay withing the confines of the general stereotype of the class. When I bring a build, it's to show how to push the limits on the class. I think hers are generally better for people to see what the class is expected to do and mine are to show what you can do beyond the expectations. Hers are more likely to see play in a regular group of players and in that regard can be superior to other builds because they are more likely to see play.

Did I really just type a bunch of shtuff and say very little?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bob, if I may, I'd like to ask you to start a thread with those fighter builds.

Not a "Fighters Rock/Suck/Whatever" thread or a "OMGWTFBBQ My Build Makes GMs Cry!". Builds like the ones you made, builds that are charming, unique and full of personality. With a few comment I could completely see Tos as a full-fledged character, and Turret didn't need even that!

Maybe a "Awesome Builds! Optimizing Coolness and Fun instead of RAW Power!" thread. "Cool Character of The Week!" would be great too.

This is the kinda of thread I'd love to see builds. Class power/versatility discussions, not so much. Although I admit ciretose did make some good points, even if I'm still not convinced.

Turret and Kos were easily my favorites.
In a game I play a bit rarely, as the group can only gather together about once a month, Turret was able to kill 3 out of 5 ogres in the same encounter (2 of them by himself! And the 3rd one in melee!). He was 4th-level at the time!
Kos was just awesome. I didn't get to play him, but I did make him a very important NPC in a campaign I'm GMing. I tryed to stay true to the personality you created for him.

What?! You think that's too much work to ask from one person? Well, noone told you to spoil us with those great builds!

Wait... I'm supposed to write something about Monks, right? Yeah... They need more Ki. I must say some Monk archetypes seemd very fun to roleplay, I particullary love Master of Many Styles and Martial Artist. As usual, it's the crunch of monks that I find lacking, their fluff is top tier!


Since this has nothing to do with this monk discussion, I won't derail the thread much with it.

Spoiler:

Lemmy wrote:
Bob, if I may, I'd like to ask you to start a thread with those fighter builds.

Not a "Fighters Rock/Suck/Whatever" thread or a "OMGWTFBBQ My Build Makes GMs Cry!". Builds like the ones you made, builds that are charming, unique and full of personality. With a few comment I could completely see Tos as a full-fledged character, and Turret didn't need even that!

Maybe a "Awesome Builds! Optimizing Coolness and Fun instead of RAW Power!" thread. "Cool Character of The Week!" would be great too.

This is the kinda of thread I'd love to see builds. Class power/versatility discussions, not so much. Although I admit ciretose did make some good points, even if I'm still not convinced.

I don't normally take requests but I think I can do this. Do you want full, level 1-20 builds? Do you want them minimally geared (just what they need to fill their function/personality) or completely geared?

Quote:

Turret and Kos were easily my favorites.

In a game I play a bit rarely, as the group can only gather together about once a month, Turret was able to kill 3 out of 5 ogres in the same encounter (2 of them by himself! And the 3rd one in melee!). He was 4th-level at the time!
Kos was just awesome. I didn't get to play him, but I did make him a very important NPC in a campaign I'm GMing. I tryed to stay true to the personality you created for him.

What?! You think that's too much work to ask from one person? Well, noone told you to spoil us with those great builds!

I think one build a week is just fine. It would allow me to still work on my own campaigns (yes, that is plural), still play, and have time for non-gaming stuff (believe it or not, I do stuff outside of gaming).


wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Good Stuff
A few months ago I finally sat down and looked at the inquisitor. The class is awesome.

you think so? i cant bring myself to play one. class just seems like a bunch of situational class features weak spell casting and bane. every time i try to play one, i just say screw it and play a cleric or a cleric/pally.


I can't get the Inquisitor to fit with most of the churches my characters would belong too.

Desna, maybe.
Caiden, no heck no.
Shelyn, huh?
Erastil, what's he hunting? Adulterers-dull.
Gorum, ok he hunts down peacemakers and pacifists, Gorum could care less.
Pharasma, ok an Undead hunter got it.
Calistria, makes no sense.
Besmara, makes even less sense.
Irori, no just no.
Nethys, makes less sense than Besmara.

Now
Asmodeus, yeah that works.
Groetus, maybe
Zon Kuthon, uhm what heresy is there in a faith that's basically heretical?
Rovagug, why bother? But the class is good at killing stuff.
Norgorber, yes a keeper of secrets.
Lamashtu, see Rovagug.
Abadar, maybe.

I do think it's mechanically a sound class, it hits a bunch of sweet spots. A Bard without all of the face/social features. Maybe it's the name, I dislike Inquisitors because they aren't Divine Assasins or Investigators. Like how the OP hates Monks because they aren't Mystic Warriors.


Orc Boyz wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Good Stuff
A few months ago I finally sat down and looked at the inquisitor. The class is awesome.
you think so? i cant bring myself to play one. class just seems like a bunch of situational class features weak spell casting and bane. every time i try to play one, i just say screw it and play a cleric or a cleric/pally.

The class puts out decent to good damage, and is good out of combat. It has the knowledge skills as class skills. I know that does not matter if your GM ignores knowledge skills though. It has stealth and perception if you want to go that route. You can also be the party face. You actually be the party face, even while dumping charisma, and being good in combat. Now honestly I did not like it at first either. What were you trying to build your inquisitor to do before you decide to not play it?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Since this has nothing to do with this monk discussion, I won't derail the thread much with it.

** spoiler omitted **

Hey, you messed up a few quote commands there. ^^

I'll follow your example and spoilerize this:

Build Thread Suggestions:

First, let me say I'd incredibly grateful of seeing some flavorful builds. It'd wonderful for the community to be able to see cool character concepts that are viable, but not necessarilly optimized!

Thank you very much, man. I'm eager to see your creations!

Well, you can do whatever works best for you, as you are the one gifting us with pieces of awesome. If you want suggestions:

Crunch: Let me see... How about standard PFS point buy? (I'm not sure it's 15 or 20 as I only play home games. Personally, I like 20 better.) with standard WBL, maybe noting the most essential items (both in fluff and crunch). Full builds would be cool, (mostly 'cause I'd love to see Kos' personality evolving as he approaches epic levels!) but I understand that can mean a lot of work.

Fluff: What can I say? I really enjoyed your presentation of Kos. I loved the idea of giving him a simple but charming backstory and then some insight to his personality traits as he levels up, like his reasons for choosing feats X, Y and Z or what are his favored tactics and most hated enemies. I had a great time just reading through it.

Of course, I said Fighter cause that happens to be the class you made Turret and Kos, but really, I'd love to see builds for any class. A whip-wielding beast-taming ranger, a mystery-solving oracle, a gentleman barbarian or an womanizing monk. Whatever you can think of.

I'm sure in time other posters would create their own unique characters, and that'd be even more awesome for the community!

Wow... I wrote a lot! I guess I got overwhelmed by hope of seeing more characters with Kos and Turret's level of awesome.

Just so it's not too derailing, I'll ask you for monk and inquisitor builds too. :3

Liberty's Edge

Bob_Loblaw wrote:


One thing I have noticed, when Ashiel brings a build it's to show what can be done with a class but to stay withing the confines of the general stereotype of the class.

Posting a lot of details about what you would put in a build isn't the same as posting a build.

Going back to the CoDZilla days, until you (I think it was you) started writing all of the things he said into a build, many didn't realize how many weaknesses came with the choices he was making with his "God" build (Having very low AC and Poor saves).

I think the same thing happens when Ashiel (or anyone else) posts parts of builds, but not the whole.

For example, Barbarian Pounce is awesome, but it requires an investment of 3 rage powers to get there. Worth it to most, but what else are you giving up?

Without the build, it is easy to accent the positives without dealing with the negatives.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

Bob, if I may, I'd like to ask you to start a thread with those fighter builds.

Agreed, one of the main reasons I made this thread was the quality of the builds you posted and my desire to have them easily accessible (and possibly get a few more from you)


ciretose wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:


One thing I have noticed, when Ashiel brings a build it's to show what can be done with a class but to stay withing the confines of the general stereotype of the class.

Posting a lot of details about what you would put in a build isn't the same as posting a build.

Going back to the CoDZilla days, until you (I think it was you) started writing all of the things he said into a build, many didn't realize how many weaknesses came with the choices he was making with his "God" build (Having very low AC and Poor saves).

I think the same thing happens when Ashiel (or anyone else) posts parts of builds, but not the whole.

For example, Barbarian Pounce is awesome, but it requires an investment of 3 rage powers to get there. Worth it to most, but what else are you giving up?

Without the build, it is easy to accent the positives without dealing with the negatives.

It was me that was pinning him down. The difference is that he was not even rules savvy and was just doing a massive cut and paste of what others had said while being rude about it. That's about as far as I want to do to talk negatively about anyone.

Ashiel is rules savvy and most of the time she isn't talking about the same character. She is talking about options the character can have. When she starts to mention a character's growth and multiple levels from the same character, that's when I like to pin down the options to make sure they can be done and done and to see what's given up.

Builds are great for showing what you can do but they what they also show is how skilled someone is with the system which will skew the results. If we keep that in mind, then it can have some merit. If it's just to point out where someone is wrong, it won't really have the desired result. Instead it becomes an excuse to belittle others. I'm not for that.


Lemmy wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Since this has nothing to do with this monk discussion, I won't derail the thread much with it.

** spoiler omitted **

Hey, you messed up a few quote commands there. ^^

I'll follow your example and spoilerize this:

** spoiler omitted **

Just so it's not too derailing, I'll ask you for monk and inquisitor...

I'll post some builds in the thread ciretose started. I hadn't seen that thread before. This thread isn't really about builds and I'm not going to derail it more than I already have.

Liberty's Edge

Bob_Loblaw wrote:


It was me that was pinning him down. The difference is that he was not even rules savvy and was just doing a massive cut and paste of what others had said while being rude about it. That's about as far as I want to do to talk negatively about anyone.

Ashiel is rules savvy and most of the time she isn't talking about the same character. She is talking about options the character can have. When she starts to mention a character's growth and multiple levels from the same character, that's when I like to pin down the options to make sure they can be done and done and to see what's given up.

Builds are great for showing what you can do but they what they also show is how skilled someone is with the system which will skew the results. If we keep that in mind, then it can have some merit. If it's just to point out where someone is wrong, it won't really have the desired result. Instead it becomes an excuse to belittle others. I'm not for that.

It would be unfair to compare Ashiel to CoDzilla, or to even say Ashiel is worse than a number of other posters with regards to the issue, but posting options without a build is exactly why you had to pin down CoDzilla and why the term "Schrodinger's Wizard" exists.

Being rules savvy isn't a reason not to ask for a build, to the contrary it is even more reason to ask for the statement to be shown in a build.

Each side is going to always make their argument in the light that best reflects the position, and they will always hide the weaknesses of the argument they are making. And many (including and especially Ashiel) consistently tries to re frame the debate for scenarios most beneficial to the position they are defending.

At this point I have posted a build for a monk which I feel would be very valuable to a 13th level party. I am making the argument that this can be done by doing it.

All of the weaknesses of the build are also open for discussion as all cards are on the table. I can't move things around, I can't change the subject to ground where I am more stable.

CoDzilla left when he was pinned down and shown to be wrong. He tried to come back under a sock puppet and failed. He was here for attention and the approval of others.

If I'm shown wrong, I'll point to this thread as evidence that the problem exists. I've done so in the past when I was shown to be wrong and things I didn't think were problems were shown to be problems.

I'm here to improve the game and learn.

I think if you are here for that purpose, you don't mind someone checking your work. And you don't mind occasionally being wrong.

On topic, I've posted a monk PC that is sitting in the bar the Iconics walked into.

Is it a PC you would want in your 13th level party?


It's a difference in style: Ciretose prefers to deal with specifics and Ashiel in generalities. Neither of them is wrong, I think you guys just use different approaches to get to the same destination.


AC of 30 is decent.

Attack bonuses will lead to decent damage most likely.

I don't like SR unless you are in a party that does not buff. That might just be personal experience talking though since it always seem to block your allies spells when you need them the most.

Decent perception and stealth for that level, but not good. You have about a 50% chance vs CR 13 monsters of detecting them and not being detected.

It is not a mage killer though, not unless the mage is all SoD. Of course my lack of respect for such builds could also be a factor. Any other class with high saves gives him the same amount of trouble.

Final report:I think the other argument was that the barbarian would be chosen over the monk.

I am going to post the modified barbarian

PS:I guess I can post switch back over to Windows so I can use herolabs to make it. Internet is not playing nice so it might be online until tomorrow. I don't want to post it until I can discuss it without interruption.

I will also look over the monk build to see what might make it more attractive.

Liberty's Edge

Dabbler wrote:
It's a difference in style: Ciretose prefers to deal with specifics and Ashiel in generalities. Neither of them is wrong, I think you guys just use different approaches to get to the same destination.

We get to the same destination? ;)

You can't make specific pronouncements of how things are when you are speaking in generalities.

Well...you can, but then you become Stephen Colbert.

Truthiness FTW!

It is easy to spout off what you think, it is harder to show the work. So says every math teacher I have ever had.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:

AC of 30 is decent.

Attack bonuses will lead to decent damage most likely.

I don't like SR unless you are in a party that does not buff. That might just be personal experience talking though since it always seem to block your allies spells when you need them the most.

Decent perception and stealth for that level, but not good. You have about a 50% chance vs CR 13 monsters of detecting them and not being detected.

It is not a mage killer though, not unless the mage is all SoD. Of course my lack of respect for such builds could also be a factor. Any other class with high saves gives him the same amount of trouble.

Final report:I think the other argument was that the barbarian would be chosen over the monk.

I am going to post the modified barbarian

PS:I guess I can post switch back over to Windows so I can use herolabs to make it. Internet is not playing nice so it might be online until tomorrow. I don't want to post it until I can discuss it without interruption.

I will also look over the monk build to see what might make it more attractive.

Thanks for the feedback!

Keep in mind the AC is 30 when barkskin is not up, 35 when it is and 39 with the ki point.

You can't get much higher with perception or stealth at that level without a feat, so I am not sure I agree with you there. Remember stunning fist does damage even if the stun fails, and you can re-try each round. Or just flurry. Or disarm them instead of stun...or grapple taking the AoO from the caster against your high AC...etc...I think casters of the same level would have a lot of trouble against this character considering high saves, high touch ac, evasion, spell resistance, and the ability to dimension door and attack in the same round.

I've heard the SR argument and I guess by RAW that is fair (although I've never seen an official ruling so I'd like the link to one). I'll admit I house rule for my game you can choose not to resist, but if you don't that is a factor to consider.

Fair evaluation. I appreciate the input and look forward to your Barbarian.


ciretose wrote:


I will also look over the monk build to see what might make it more attractive.

Thanks for the feedback!

Keep in mind the AC is 30 when barkskin is not up, 35 when it is and 39 with the ki point.

You can't get much higher with perception or stealth at that level without a feat, so I am not sure I agree with you there. Remember stunning fist does damage even if the stun fails, and you can re-try each round. Or just flurry. Or disarm them instead of stun...or grapple taking the AoO from the caster against your high AC...etc...I think casters of the same level would have a lot of trouble against this character considering high saves, high touch ac, evasion, spell resistance, and the ability to dimension door and attack in the same round.

I've heard the SR argument and I guess by RAW that is fair (although I've never seen an official ruling so I'd like the link to one). I'll admit I house rule for my game you can choose not to resist, but if you don't that is a factor to consider.

What SR ruling are you looking for?

It never says it lets friendly spells pass. It also takes a standard action to deactivate.

Not wanting to derail the topic so I will post a rules quote. Hopefully it is enough.

Quote:

Spell Resistance

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. Some spells also grant spell resistance.

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance. The defender's spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn't affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature's next turn. At the beginning of the creature's next turn, the creature's spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

If you could just pick and choose which spells could bypass your SR there would be no real need to lower it.


Ciretose as for the stealth and perception argument they can be both be four higher, but you would to sacrifice somewhere else, not that I think stealth is worth the sacrifice at this level. Stealth is really hard to make work at this level though because of high perception + things like blindsense and so on, so that hurts everyone. My main point though was that a 20-22 is meeting the baseline, not really exceeding it.

I will get to work on that barbarian now to see what I can come up with. I am sure my AC will be lacking, but hopefully I can make up for it in other areas.

Liberty's Edge

@wraithstrike. Thanks for the citation


ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's a difference in style: Ciretose prefers to deal with specifics and Ashiel in generalities. Neither of them is wrong, I think you guys just use different approaches to get to the same destination.
We get to the same destination? ;)

Usually. Although it may be opposite sides of the same mountain, it is still the same mountain.

ciretose wrote:
You can't make specific pronouncements of how things are when you are speaking in generalities.

True, but you can make general ones.

ciretose wrote:
It is easy to spout off what you think, it is harder to show the work. So says every math teacher I have ever had.

This is also true. On the other hand it is easier to say "Quadratic equations will always scale as a square of the base function, which will always exceed a linear progression eventually" than have to come up with hundreds of examples of quadratic equations to prove the point.


Grokko no rage:
GROKKO CR 12
Male Dwarf Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 13
CN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision; Perception +25
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 29, touch 14, flat-footed 27. . (+13 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 174 (13d12+65)
Fort +16, Ref +9, Will +13
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training, Guarded Life; DR 12/lethal, 6/&#151;; Resist fire 3, Extreme Endurance (Fire)
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Keen Greatsword +21/+16/+11 (2d6+11/17-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +19/+14/+9 (1d3+6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14/+9 (1d3+6/20/x2)

Power Attack: +2 Keen Greatsword +21/+12/+8 (2d6+23/17-20/x2)

Special Attacks Beast Totem, Lesser, Scent
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/22, Dex 14, Con 16/20, Int 10, Wis 14/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +19; CMD 33
Feats Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -4/+8, Raging Brutality (+5), Raging Vitality, Steel Soul
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +11, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (Nature) +16, Perception +25, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +20, Swim +11
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Beast Totem +4 AC (Su), Beast Totem, Greater (Su), Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Greed, Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects, Hatred +1, Rage (31 rounds/day) (Ex), Slow and Steady, Stability +4, Stonecunning +2, Superstition +5 (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Greatsword, +4 Mithral Full Plate; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (12/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Reduction (6/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (3) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Extreme Endurance: Fire (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replace
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Guarded Life (13 HP) (Ex) If reduced below 0HP, convert some damage to non-lethal. Auto-stabilize below 0HP.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (31 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Brutality (+5) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Scent (Ex) While raging, you gain the scent ability.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Superstition +5 (Ex) +5 save vs. magic while raging.

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Grokko the barbarian raging:
GROKKO CR 12
Male Dwarf Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 13
CN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision, Scent; Perception +25
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 31, touch 12, flat-footed 29. . (+13 armor, +2 Dex, +6 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 226 (13d12+117)
Fort +20, Ref +9, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training, Guarded Life; DR 12/lethal, 6/&#151;; Resist fire 3, Extreme Endurance (Fire)
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 keen Greatsword +24/+19/+14 (2d6+15/17-20/x2) and
Power Attack +2 keen Greatsword +24/+15/+10 (2d6+27/17-20/x2)
Power Attack and Raging Vitality +2 keen Greatsword +24/+15/+10 (2d6+40/17-20/x2)

. . Claw x2 (Beast Totem, Lesser) +22 x2 (1d8+9/20/x3) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +22/+17/+12 (1d3+9/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+9/20/x2)
Special Attacks Beast Totem, Lesser, Pounce, Scent
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/28, Dex 14, Con 16/28, Int 10, Wis 14/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +22; CMD 34
Feats Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -4/+8, Raging Brutality (+9), Raging Vitality, Steel Soul
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +14, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (Nature) +16, Perception +25, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +20, Swim +14
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Beast Totem +4 AC (Su), Beast Totem, Greater (Su), Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Greed, Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects, Hatred +1, Rage (31 rounds/day) (Ex), Slow and Steady, Stability +4, Stonecunning +2, Superstition +5 (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Greatsword, +4 Mithral Full Plate; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (12/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Reduction (6/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (3) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Extreme Endurance: Fire (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replace
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Guarded Life (13 HP) (Ex) If reduced below 0HP, convert some damage to non-lethal. Auto-stabilize below 0HP.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (31 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Brutality (+9) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Scent (Ex) While raging, you gain the scent ability.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Superstition +5 (Ex) +5 save vs. magic while raging.

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

Even when not raging I can power attack, can do a lot of damage. When raging and power attacking it I do a lot more damage. the idea is to save raging vitality for boss fights, since it use up 3 round of rage per 1 round. I am normally good at resource management so I should have have it when I need it.

I have a perception of +25, and I have scent when I rage. Yeah I know I still have to deal with miss chance but I can point the square out so someone else can deal with it. That allows casters to use faerie fire or glitterdust instead of see invis first.

The bonuses from steel soul and superstition are not even included in the above saves.

Steel Soul pushes them up by 4, and it is always on vs spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4, which is where most saves come from.

Superstition is a +5 against spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural affects when I rage

My AC goes from 1 28 to a 31 when I rage, not great, but not to bad either. I also have DR 6. That is a pretty good reduction in DPR from bad guys.

If I do happen to go into negatives I don't have to worry about rage shutting down due to raging vitality. If I someone get to the point where I am about to die I have guarded life which converts some of the damage into nonlethal damage. In short I have quiet a few safe guards if the dice gods decide they really hate me one day.

No, I don't have stealth, but since I am the 5th member, and stealth is not the barbarian's typical role that is not really a negative. My perception is high enough so that I am a good 2nd set of eyes, and my damage is comparable to the main DPR person. My saves, other defense also make sure I am not giving the cleric puppy dog eyes every other fight.

PS:I forgot to get a bow, but in a real game that would not happen. I do have close to 12000 go left over so I can afford a +1 bow and any consumables such as fly potions.


Ciretose if you had purchased eyes of the eagle your perception would go up by +5. It is only 2500 gp.

I do like Wisdom in the Flesh. I did not even know that trait existed. I think all my inquisitor builds just got a bump. :)

I see I forgot to address stunning fist. I normally have casters with good enough fort saves that I can expect to make that save. Two NPC casters in a certain AP that are level 13 have a 50 miss chance. They don't have access to things like mirror image, and displacement though, IIRC, but if they did, and many low fort BAB casters will, that makes it harder to land.

PS:I keep forgetting monk has casters to help him out. If they can shut down the opposing caster's defenses then he has a much better chance, but in that case the becomes who gets the credit? Could someone not have used a ranger or fighter to do the same thing?


@Wraithstrike

Grokko, you should get a +2 composite longbow w/ a +6 strength rating. you also have a 7th unspent feat slot. i reccomend spending it on deadly aim.


Reposting so the builds are near one another.
.
.
.
.
Throwing up a rough draft to get some feedback as I go. Besides, a rough draft is the kind of frame of reference you can discuss and work with. I have a little gold left, but not much.

Dwarf Monk:

===============================================
13th Level Dwarf Monk
==================================================
Init +7; Perception +11
Hp: 127 (8 + 2 Con + 6.5 X5)
AC: 30, touch 26, flat 25 (+6 Wis,+4 Monk +4 dex +1 Dodge, +4 Bracer) +5 from barkskin for 130 minutes per ki point.
SR: 23
Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +16 (all +4 against spells or spell like abilities) (+2 vs Enchantments)
==================================================
Speed 60 ft.
Melee: Unarmed +17/+12 (2d8+8), Flurry Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+8) (-3 +6 for power attacks)
Ranged: Shruiken +15/10 (1d2+6), Flurry +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d2+6) (-3+6 for deadly aim)
==================================================
Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18(12+2), Int 10, Wis 16 (14+2) Cha 8 (10-2)
BAB +9, CMB +19 (21 disarm, 23 with sai), CMD 34
Traits - +2 Initiative, Wisdom in the flesh (Steath)
Feats - 1st Steel Soul
(Monk 1) Dodge
(Monk 2) Deflect Arrows
3rd Power Attack
5th Tiger
(Monk 6) Improved Disarm
7th Deadly Aim
9th Tiger Claws (Unarmed slashing, 1d4 bleed on crit)
(monk 10) Spring Attack
11th Tiger Pounce
13th Dimensional Agility
Special abilities: Stunning fist (DC 22), Quiggong (barkskin), Purity of body (immune to all diseases), Diamond Body (immune to all poisons), Improved evasion, Wholeness of body (self heal 13 hp for 2 ki points)

Skills Ranks – Acrobatics 12, Appraise 0, Bluff -1, Climb 14 , Craft -, Diplomacy -1, Disable Device -, Disguise -1, Escape Artist 13 , Fly 4 , Heal (0), Handle Animal -2, Intimidate -1 Knowledge [History] (+4), Knowledge [Religion] (+4), Linguistics –, Perception (+22), Ride 8, Sense Motive 14, Sleight of Hand - , Spellcraft, Stealth +20 , Survival +7, Swim 10, UMD -

Equipment - Belt of Physical Might +4, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6, Monk Robe, Bracers of Armor +4, Amulet of might fist +2, Handy Haversack, Masterwork Cold iron Sai, ring of protection +1

Consumables: Fly Potion, Invisibility Potion,


I am immune to all diseases and poisons, which is nice. I have really good saves that are down right ridiculous against magic, which combined with my spell resistance and insanely high touch AC makes pretty useful.

Not to mention I can dimension door and attack with a stunning fist in the same round (Abundant step is a move action), an my stunning fist is a DC 22 fort save. Casters hate that. And with a +22 perception and +20 stealth, and darkvision I've got a good chance of seeing them and sneaking up into range to pull this off.

Against Melee I generally will try to disarm them with my sai to bring the fight down to more equal footing, when possible using spring attacks to take advantage of my mobility and set up so they are moving to me, and not my moving to them.

Barkskin kicks my AC up to 35, and I'm able to knock that up to 39 with a ki point if I need it.

I get 5 attacks normally, with a 6th one at full BAB available if I spend a ki point.

I have 12 ki points, which is a good amount, thought about taking extra ki but took deadly aim instead to give me some decent damage with the Shruiken if I need it. I may add some special material shruiken to help with getting around DR.

This is largely a mage killer type build that can hold it's own in standard combat.

Again, rough draft, feel free to point out mistakes/suggestions. I await the Barbarian, etc...


I have all of my feats, Nekogami

1 1st Steel Soul
2 Beast Totem, Lesser (Su)
3 power attack
4 Superstition (+5 vs spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities when raging)
5 Furioius Focus
6 Beast Totem(+3 nat armor when raging)
7 Raging Vitality(morale bonus to con increases by 2. continue to rage even when unconscious)
8 Scent
9 Heavy Armor Proficiency
10 Beast Totem, Greater(pounce when raging)
11 iron will.
12 Guarded Life (convert 13 points of lethal damage to nonlethal damage to prevent death)
13 Raging Brutality(adds 1.5 con modifier to damage, not multiplied on crit)

PS:It seems heavy armor proficiency was not listed in my spoiler, but herolabs did account for it.

I did forget to add my traits though. I will chose indomitable faith and classically schooled. I now have spellcraft as a class skill.

That raises my will save by another +1 also.

Liberty's Edge

Remember that Abundant Step ends your turn. You can do something after using Abundant Step only if you have the feat Dimensional Agility.

Liberty's Edge

Good build. I think either would be more than welcome in a 13th level adventure.

I don't think the Barbarian posted outshines the monk, nor do I think the monk posted outshines the Barbarian.

The monk is better defensively, particularly against spells, casters, poisons, etc. The Barbarian can soak more attacks and does more damage.

The monk is more mobile (I was surprised you went heavy armor) but you really need to hide from the Barbarian considering the pounce attack.

I would says each would be much better than the other in some situations and much weaker in others. So more or less push.


ciretose wrote:

Good build. I think either would be more than welcome in a 13th level adventure.

I don't think the Barbarian posted outshines the monk, nor do I think the monk posted outshines the Barbarian.

The monk is better defensively, particularly against spells, casters, poisons, etc. The Barbarian can soak more attacks and does more damage.

The monk is more mobile (I was surprised you went heavy armor) but you really need to hide from the Barbarian considering the pounce attack.

I would says each would be much better than the other in some situations and much weaker in others. So more or less push.

The barbarian has enough defense that I am not worried about failing a save. Even when not raging I need a one to fail a save against most CR appropriate opponents. Against a boss types I expect to be raging, and I most likely need a one against them also.

I went with mithral full plate because it counts as medium armor for everything except proficiency so I don't lose mobility. 40 feet of movement is pretty good. I think a 5% chance to fail is not a bad with the offense I have.

I do agree that the GM's gamestyle comes into play. I did not use the arena build I mentioned earlier. It did a lot more damage than the build I presented here, but the AC was around 20. That is too low for me.

PS:Ok, so I might fail a reflex save. :)

edit:@Theconiel -->The monk has dimensional agility. I think it is the last feat he picked up.


ciretose wrote:
The monk is better defensively, particularly against spells, casters, poisons, etc. The Barbarian can soak more attacks and does more damage.

I disagree with this. True, your Monk has a higher AC, but the Barbarian has DR, which can help a lot more than AC. At the same time, against Spells, and Spell-like Abilities, the Barbarain gains +4, and if he's raging, a further +5. This puts his Non-rage saves at Fort +20 Ref 13 Will 17 against Spells and Spell-like Abilities, while Raging, he is Fort 29 Ref 18 Will 25 against Spells and Spell-like Abilities. True, the Monk is immune to poison, but with a 16/20 Fort, he's unlikely to miss those DCs very often.

Conversely, the Monk is Fort 18 Ref 18 Will 20 (22 vs enchantments) against Spells and Spell-like Abilities. I think, all things considered, you guys are roughly the same when it comes to saves vs Spells and Spell-like Abilities. Granted, you have SR 23, but, realistically, unless the Caster is a Mook, he's going to have a higher CL than yours, so it will be, at best, a 50% chance to work against you. Feats can drastically skew this even more in their favor. SR really only benefits monsters, not players, especially since your own casters have to overcome SR to help you.

Ciretose, I believe your Disarm numbers are off. You gain +13 from BAB, +6 from Strength and +2 from Improved Disarm. That totals 21, the Sai is a Sundering weapon, so if you were Sundering, you would gain a further +2, but not towards Disarm. However! You are wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fist +2, and any enhancement that adds to your attack, adds to your Combat Maneuvers when using that weapon to make a Maneuver. Therefore, your Unarmed Strike has a +23 Disarm, while your Sai has a +21 Disarm and a +21 Sunder (but Sunder provokes an AoO).

While I do like the Monk you built, I, personally, would take the Barbarian over the Monk, if simply because the Barbarian's damage is a form of healing, by killing the monster, he prevents damage from even being dealt.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for for the disarm catch, I went from memory on Sai and it changed from 3.5 when it was a bonus against disarm. I'm also confused because the description of a disarm weapon says it gets a +2 to disarm.

"Disarm: When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy."

But I'll defer, it is a secondary attack to mix with spring attack to set up the tiger pounce. I like the combo.

I think you are underestimating the value of spell resistance, since it would only come into play on failed saves anyway. And I think you are forgetting that my touch AC is also very high, which weakens rays and touch spells significantly. And I'm immune to poison and all diseases, and can dimension door away from trouble as a move action.

I was trying to put it together at work, while working, so I'm not surprised at some errors. I was trying to err on the side of caution.

That is a fair evaluation, but I hope you also agree the gap isn't as wide as you thought it would be going in. And this was a fairly basic monk build, with the exception of tiger style which is pretty awesome.

Liberty's Edge

Theconiel wrote:
Remember that Abundant Step ends your turn. You can do something after using Abundant Step only if you have the feat Dimensional Agility.

I do, picked it up at 13th level.


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Let’s see how these guys fair against a CR 13 foe – we’ll assume a melee strong foe as these are both fighting classes:
AC28, 180hp good save 16. High Attack +22 High Damage 60.

First the monk:
+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+8) (-3 +6 for power attacks)
Hits AC28 60%/60%/60%/35%/35%/10% with ki. (260% x 17) + (5% x 260% x 17) = DPR = 46.41 +2.5 bleed.
Counter vs AC 35 = 40% x 60 = 24 DPR
Stunning fist DC 22 . 65% to make save vs stunning fist – he should fail at least once, losing one round of damage vs our monk and putting DPR up to around 60 that round for the monk, not quite enough to finish the fight a round earlier.

So our monk will take down the foe in 4 rounds, he’ll take 48 damage back in the process, 48/127 = 38% of his hit points. He’ll use 4 stunning fists and four points of ki (plus barkskin), around 40% of total .

Now the barbarian:
Power Attack and Raging Vitality +2 keen Greatsword +24/+15/+10 (2d6+40/17-20/x2)
Hits AC 28 85%/40%/15%. (140% x 47) + (20% x 140% x 47) = DPR = 78.96
Counter vs AC31 = 60% x 60 = 36 DPR, only 30 vs our barb.

So our barb will take down the foe in 3 rounds, he’ll take 60 damage back in the process, 60/226 = 27% of his hit points. He’ll use three rounds of rage, less than 10% of his total.

Monk is taking only 20% less damage (but more in proportion) and dishing out 40% less DPR, and used up far more resources.

I did look at spring-attacking for the monk, but that actually works out worse for him. Assuming the foe’s DPR drops to 1/3 the monk actually takes more damage in the long run even using Tiger Pounce. He can stunning fist and boost AC with ki, but really uses them up before he wins although he doesn’t quite run out.

The killer, as I suspected, was the monk's lower enhancement. With just 5% more to hit (the barb has a +3 equivelant weapon, remember) the monk's DPR would be up enough to finish the fight earlier with his stunning fist, taking less damage and using less resources.

Edit: I did my math on the back of an envelope, feel free to check it and correct me if I made a fool of myself ;)

Liberty's Edge

This also assumes the players just stands and does a back and forth, which is a great Barbarian strategy and more of a situation based monk strategy.

If you are using spring attack to disarm, then tiger pouncing if the disarm is successful (including a stunning fist on the first attack) that would make more sense than just trading blows. And the higher initiative doesn't hurt either. I'm not saying the monk is better against the melee, but I am saying they aren't going to be likely to do the same thing.

Now if both were facing a caster class, things would be very different. The monk can abundant step around barriers if needed and still attack in the same round, the monk is going to be resistant to touch attacks, have high saves, spell resistance, evasion, immunity to disease and poison, etc...I think in that situation the monk would be much better off than the Barbarian.

I think what you posted adds well to the discussion, I just want to point out a melee combatant is a situation the Barbarian should be better at.


ciretose wrote:

This also assumes the players just stands and does a back and forth, which is a great Barbarian strategy and more of a situation based monk strategy.

If you are using spring attack to disarm, then tiger pouncing if the disarm is successful (including a stunning fist on the first attack) that would make more sense than just trading blows. And the higher initiative doesn't hurt either. I'm not saying the monk is better against the melee, but I am saying they aren't going to be likely to do the same thing.

Now if both were facing a caster class, things would be very different. The monk can abundant step around barriers if needed and still attack in the same round, the monk is going to be resistant to touch attacks, have high saves, spell resistance, evasion, immunity to disease and poison, etc...I think in that situation the monk would be much better off than the Barbarian.

I think what you posted adds well to the discussion, I just want to point out a melee combatant is a situation the Barbarian should be better at.

The only thing that concerns me is that if its a caster that can't fly (such as a wizard or sorcerer), it's probably physically capable of tearing the monk a new one (clerics, druids, bards, rangers, alchemists, inquisitors, rakshasha, mind flayers*, beholders*, most outsiders...).

Any thoughts?


ciretose wrote:

This also assumes the players just stands and does a back and forth, which is a great Barbarian strategy and more of a situation based monk strategy.

If you are using spring attack to disarm, then tiger pouncing if the disarm is successful (including a stunning fist on the first attack) that would make more sense than just trading blows. And the higher initiative doesn't hurt either. I'm not saying the monk is better against the melee, but I am saying they aren't going to be likely to do the same thing.

Now if both were facing a caster class, things would be very different. The monk can abundant step around barriers if needed and still attack in the same round, the monk is going to be resistant to touch attacks, have high saves, spell resistance, evasion, immunity to disease and poison, etc...I think in that situation the monk would be much better off than the Barbarian.

I think what you posted adds well to the discussion, I just want to point out a melee combatant is a situation the Barbarian should be better at.

The barbarian only fails on a 1. Even if the barbarian fails a save vs poison he is still likely to make the other saves needed. Diseases normally have an onset times of days. Even if the barbarian fails one save the party caster can remove the disease by the next day. Both are basically nonfactors. The monk can get around barriers with dimension door, but he still has to deal with miss chance and whatever else the caster has up. Caster can also have a good enough fort save to reliably save against stunning fist. The caster in said AP is also flying around so abundant step won't help. She does not have anything to give her a miss chance though. Her AC is good enough that the shiruken are not much of a threat.

I think my bow, if I were to work out the stats would, also be at a + 15, but I don't take penalties from being too far away. It seems we both have the same results against this caster until she is brought to the ground. Then either of us could take her out.

It is also highly possible that the monster in question is not using weapons. I will also add that monsters of this CR normally have really high CMD's so those combat maneuvers are unlikely to work even if weapons are involved. As a GM I prefer to take a monster out of the bestiary and alter it or run it as is, unless it is a boss fight. Building characters takes a long time, and since CR=APL fights are pretty common a stock monster of a slightly varied one is most likely what you will get. Ice Devils and Storm giants have CMD's of 36 and 42. In theory you might get a lucky roll, but it is not likely that the disarm place. If you stand and trade blows with them it will hurt. If you use spring attack they will just charge you, so you are still trading blows. My money is not on the monk.

The difference is not as great as I thought it would be, but I still see the barbarian as being ahead.

The monk has a strong reliance on stunning fist. Most monsters even won't fail that save in a fight unless several attempts are made, and if it is a boss fight it takes a 1 or 2 on the dice for it to do anything*. If the monk is using spring attack the fight is most likely to be over before it ever work.

*Assumes CR 16 or 17 monster which is has before it buffs up, if it is some outsider or dragon with caster levels.

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