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Rounds (1-9 rounds)
Rounds-durations have a maximum of 9 rounds. At ten rounds, they are upgraded to Scene duration. Only rounds-duration effects can expire during the middle of a Scene, all other effects will terminate at Expiry.
Scenes (1 minute - 1 hour)
Any effect lasting 10 rounds (1 minute) or more lasts for one Scene, regardless of the actual length of the Scene in rounds. For each 10 minutes of extra duration, you may sustain the spell for 1 additional scene, up to a total of 6 scenes. Any duration greater than 60 minutes is upgraded to Sortie duration.
Minutes | Scenes
1 | 1
10 | 2
20 | 3
30 | 4
40 | 5
50 | 6
60 | Sortie
There are two general types of Scene: encounters (which you understand) and explorations. An exploration is any room or series of small rooms that might share box-text. You can "rush" an exploration by explicitly declaring that you are rushing, and then it doesn't count against your Scenes for duration (but there may be consequences).
At the end of the Scene, the GM will call for Expiry. At the point, we note whatever spells have expired, and cast new ones if desired.
Sortie (1 hour - 12 hours)
Any effect lasting 1 hour or more lasts for the exploration of and entire encounter site (a single floor of a dungeon, for example), or one time period. At 4 hours, the effect will last for two time periods, and at 8 hours, it lasts for 3 time periods. The time periods are: morning, midday, afternoon, evening, night. Any effect lasting 12 or more hours is upgraded to Extended duration.
Hours | Periods
1 | 1
4 | 2
8 | 3
12 | Extended
Extended (12+ hours)
Any duration greater than 12 hours is effectively permanent as long as it takes up a spell slot. Heck, you don't even need to re-prepare or re-cast it. It can still be dispelled though.
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What say you, forum?
I approve. Anything that reduces bookkeeping is a good thing.
I think certain effects that apply negative conditions would need to be considered, perhaps being modified to not extend to the next scene. A character panicked for 11 rounds shouldn't have that extend to the next scene, for example (IMO).
I approve. Anything that reduces bookkeeping is a good thing.
I think certain effects that apply negative conditions would need to be considered, perhaps being modified to not extend to the next scene. A character panicked for 11 rounds shouldn't have that extend to the next scene, for example (IMO).
My intent is that, under this system, if you are panicked or slowed or whatever for 11 rounds, then the effect lasts for the entire current scene.
Thanks for pointing that out, I will use that in a revised explanation. So helpful at 10 am! (where I am)
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I like the concept. It makes things much more concrete when dealing with scaling time; my groups play like this so I may adapt this. I started using a placeholder checklist (ie. 1-9 rounds, 1-9 min, 1-5 minx10, hours) but it gets overwhelming with dozens of active spells. This system would be easier, because you can write the four categories of spells down and list active effects under each category.
The only rule I would add would be: 8 hours of rest ends any active spell (except those normally permanent), and that you have to recast such spells again in the morning.
Finally, I would consider bumping some spells back up to 3.0 durations (like bull's strength) to further minimize book-keeping.
I approve. Anything that reduces bookkeeping is a good thing.
I think certain effects that apply negative conditions would need to be considered, perhaps being modified to not extend to the next scene. A character panicked for 11 rounds shouldn't have that extend to the next scene, for example (IMO).
My intent is that, under this system, if you are panicked or slowed or whatever for 11 rounds, then the effect lasts for the entire current scene.
Thanks for pointing that out, I will use that in a revised explanation. So helpful at 10 am! (where I am)
Gotcha, mostly a problem of me reading while partially distracted.
Overall I like it a lot. I find that most games kind of fall into a pattern like this anyways, except for city games where scenes might be hours apart, though you kind of cover that as well.
I would agree with Jal, there might be a few spells to review and alter durations to help them fit into this mold, but these would probably be based on personal preference and play style
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I would agree with Jal, there might be a few spells to review and alter durations to help them fit into this mold, but these would probably be based on personal preference and play style
Once you've got the system down, I would expect altering spell durations would be much easier - you can anticipate which spells would be easier to adjudicate with longer durations, and which ones would be overpowered.
Thanks guys! Yes, this is really about bringing the numbers more in-line with how I actually play.
Some might say it looks like 4e's time management, but this is a parallel evolution.
As GM, I hate how arbitrary the declaration of minutes seems. I'd be much more comfortable with "Scenes", since at least that is subjectively defined by the GM and doesn't imply some objective timer running somewhere. It's really easy to get bogged down if you try to track time "fairly"...
Whereas in this system, players and GMs know what to expect. You're never going to run out of a spell in the middle of a combat because the GM arbitrarily advanced 3 minutes when he could have said 2.
I like scenes as well. Stories happen in scenes and I like roleplaying for the story telling aspect. There are a plethora of independent games that utilize scene mechanics as well, it isn't something that 4e invented. Dungeon crawls work with a minute by minute accounting, but a castle intrigue is better thought of in scenes.
Atarlost, I think your concern is quite valid. I wonder how that will play out...
I had considered making the cutoff 2 minutes instead of 1. That would mean that any "rounds/level" duration spell would require a 20th level caster to become a Scenes duration.
But... I was honestly too tempted by the easier paperwork on 1 minute. I hate tracking effects round-by-round, so the idea that higher level characters could "fire and forget" those spells for a whole scene really appealed to me.
It might be too powerful, you're right. 2 minutes cutoff would solve that.
What does everyone else think?
This will make extend spell metamagic especially valuable at the break points where it can bump a spell from one duration to the next.
This will make extend spell metamagic especially valuable at the break points where it can bump a spell from one duration to the next.
Yup, an extended Mass Bear's Endurance would last several scenes, making a fairly reliable spell to cast.
Note that bumping up a duration isn't always good.
Exploration and encounter scenes are almost always shorter than ten minutes.
EXAMPLE: So, assuming 2 minutes is Scene, you'd need to be level 10 and burn an extend charge to get bear's endurance for 20 minutes...
and these rules would allow 3 scenes of duration.
That's actually a lot less than the RAW would give, assuming you tracked three scenes of encounters and exploration.
I'm okay with it being inferior to the number-crunching version, as long as it actually saves time!
Hmmm. Yes, Umbral Reaver, that's the last straw... I'm definitely advocating 2 minutes as the cutoff now.
And yes, extend spell will be very nice, but not too overpowering. In general, longer duration spells will be truncated by being tracked in scenes, so it's okay that shorter duration spells get a bit of a boost once they cross the cutoff.
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I ended up editing the text for my own game, so I thought I'd share the most recent formulation:
Rounds-durations have a maximum of 19 rounds. At twenty rounds, they are upgraded to 1 Scene duration. Only rounds-duration effects can expire during the middle of a Scene, all other effects will terminate at expiry.
Any effect lasting 20 rounds (2 minutes) or more lasts for one scene, regardless of the actual length of the scene in rounds. For each full 10 minutes of duration, you may sustain the spell for 1 additional scene, up to a total of 6 scenes at 50 minutes. Any duration greater than 60 minutes is upgraded to Sortie duration.There are two general types of scene: encounters (which you understand) and explorations. An exploration is any room or series of small rooms that might share box-text. You can "rush" an exploration by explicitly declaring that you are rushing, and then it doesn't count against your scenes for duration (but there may be consequences).
At the end of the scene, the GM will call for Expiry. At the point, we note whatever spells have expired, and cast new ones if desired.
Any effect lasting 1 hour or more lasts for the exploration of an entire encounter site (a small dungeon, for example), or one time period. At 4 hours, the effect will last for two time periods, and at 8 hours, it lasts for 3 time periods. The time periods are: morning, midday, afternoon, evening, night. Any effect lasting 12 or more hours is upgraded to Enduring duration.
Any duration greater than 12 hours is effectively permanent as long as it takes up a spell slot. Heck, you don't even need to re-prepare or re-cast it as long as the slot is used. It can still be dispelled though.
As you can see, I upped the cutoff for Rounds -> Scenes to 2 minutes. This lessens the effect of rounds duration buffs changing the outcome of fights, as discussed upthread. I also changed the longest category to "Enduring" because I didn't want it to get confused with metamagics. There's no "enduring spell", right?
I had one chance to use this method during last week's game. It is much simpler to track four 13th level PCs sporting multiple buffs. Minutes and hours are just not very good measures of game time, they force the GM to do a conversion on the fly, figuring out how many minutes the last "scene" took. Scenes and Sorties just front-load that conversion in a more consistent way...
Has anyone else tried this? Did you like it?
I've just read this, (jumped here from your recent post about speeding up high level games) and it looks really good, definitely worth trying. It does remind me a little of DnD 4th ed. rules regarding encounter lengths and short rests(and in case it's unclear I meant that comparison as a compliment :-p)
Basically it's a nice compromise between the two by not being overly simplistic like 4th ed. but structuring durations in a way that makes sense in game time rather than the GM having to rule: "er yeah I guess it's still running you probably got here less than 7 minutes ago..." (something I've said a lot)
I do have one suggestion though, an addendum that in some circumstances (per gm discretion) the actual duration will be used. For example a rogue has 3 minutes worth of invisibility and has to get through two guarded rooms and pick three difficult (for him) locks. It would ruin the tension a bit to simply say the invis duration is sufficient to cover the whole encounter so that's a circumstance where it would be better to count it out round by round as the rogue desperately makes his disable device checks and has to judge whether he has enough time to stealth across a room at half speed or whether he has to take the penalty and haul ass. (hmm, I've just had an awesome idea for an encounter...:-))
Anyway, thanks. I'll be using this in my high level game and will try and remember to post some feedback.
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Thanks, Loki 42nd, for the feedback!
In any case, it's implicit that the GM can "jump back" to the Concrete durations, but if it makes you feel better I will be sure to include that clause in any "official" writeup. The intention of this rule is to make everyone's life easier — but if the GM's idea of fun is ruined by the method, then screw the method, right?
Still, what I intend here is a way to standardize and measure what is in practice a very slippery measure of time. Either Concrete or Abstract durations end up being "exactly how long the GM wants it" — but the abstract version gives players a better, more reassuring way of estimating how long that will be.
As for 4e, thanks for the compliment. I knew that comparisons would arise soon enough, but... let's just say that the similarities and differences are obvious if you consider the two methods.
I have some new numbers that I'm experimenting with, I will simply dump them right here:
_1m 10 rounds
_2m 1 Scene
20m 2 Scenes
40m 3 scenes
_1h 1 Sortie
_4h 2 Sorties
_8h 3 Sorties
12h Unlimited
I like that Evil Lincoln.
Makes me wonder what else could work on a scene / act basis... rage? bardic music? Immunity after a successful save?
Will certainly come back more rested with better (more constructive) comments...
'findel
Great, with one exception.
12h Unlimited if uninterrupted.
Some adventure paths will have a hit squad sent to attack the adventurers in their sleep. If they awaken to an attack, they have not yet reapplied the spells.
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I have been doing something similar this to a long time.
Rounds per level get tracked.
Minutes per level last for 1 combat per minute.
Hours per level lasts an entire dungeon.
It began that way to save time out of game in my Kingmaker game as we hit level 6+. I do like a formalization of it though :-)
Great, with one exception.
12h Unlimited if uninterrupted.
Some adventure paths will have a hit squad sent to attack the adventurers in their sleep. If they awaken to an attack, they have not yet reapplied the spells.
You're right. Personal preference makes that more of a feature than a bug, but luckily the Unlimited duration is really not central to the rule.
Additionally whenever a character takes a 20 it eats up duration, I'd mention this to players: "You can definitely do well on this check, but you'll have less time for your buffs."
Well considering for most checks thats at least 2mins yeah I can see it.
Maybe something like this
Normal action T20 time Buffs ended.
Move 1min treat as a hastened scene.
Standard 2mins 1 encouter
1min 20 mins 2 scenes
And so forth since I can't think of anything but gathering info that takes more than on minute.
Dudemeister and Talonhawke, I am still processing the implications of your points on Take 20.
I got to use this rule again last night. Even though the encounter was basically one big "scene/sortie", a fight against a dragon that's gonna wear on for a long time, the rule was still awesome.
Why? Because players are more willing to cast buffs before a scene instead of waiting till the last minute. As long as the duration is over 2 minutes, they'll just cast it instead of dithering.
That aspect, combined with not having to re-calculate every duration after every scene, has me 100% committed to this method.
More to come...
I've used this rule quite a bit now, and I'm loving it. Having durations expressed in meaningful "game session" terms is a huge boon to everyone involved. It is much easier to mark off only some portion of spells at the end of every scene, instead of deducting minutes from each spell regardless of whether it lasts hours or not.
It is so stable, in fact, that it is worming its way into my other rule designs. Here's an example:
The amount of time you spend exploring an area determines your ability to locate traps and secret doors, as well as other details.
Taking 10 is the default for exploration, which takes 1 scene. Rushing through an area treats your Perception roll as 0 + any modifiers, but does not count as a scene for duration.
Taking 20 for an exploration is a sortie for purposes of duration. You may always take a deliberate Perception Check (rolling 1d20+mods) as a move action.
I also found that for the Strain-Injury HP Variant, the formerly nebulous "rest and refit" fits very neatly into the definition of a scene. Also, Sorties work well for things like shopping trip limitations.
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This is the most recent version of the Abstract Duration rule.
This one has turned out to be the absolute gem of the houserules in my campaign. I am never going back to the old way.
The following standards exist for translating durations from game-world time into game-session time:
Concrete......Abstract
2 minutes.....1 scene
20 minutes...2 scenes
40 minutes...3 scenes
1 hour..........1 sortie
4 hours........2 sorties
8 hours........3 sorties
12 hours......effectively unlimitedA is one combat or social encounter, or the exploration of a reasonably large “room”.
A is one site with multiple encounters (a typical “map” for an encounter site), a short overland journey or a phase of the day (morning, midday, evening, night), or an extremely thorough exploration of a single room or area.
The amount of time you spend exploring an area determines your ability to locate traps and secret doors, as well as other details. Taking 10 is the default for exploration, which takes 1 scene. Rushing through an area treats your Perception roll as 0 + any modifiers, but does not count as a scene for duration. Taking 20 for an exploration is a sortie for purposes of duration. You may always take a deliberate Perception Check (rolling 1d20+mods) as a move action.
The main benefit is that you only need to decrement durations of a given type; at the end of a scene you mark down all your "scene" effects by one, instead of (in theory) subtracting 6 minutes (or whatever) from every effect.
I think that in practice, most people do use a version of this kind of rule, just by being lazy about duration tracking. Using this method really cuts down on the problems that arise from that laziness, mainly GM guilt and player resentment from poorly-timed buff loss, etc.
If anyone out there has adopted this (and you really should consider it) please let me know how it is working out for you!
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UPDATE:
A scene is one combat or social encounter, or the exploration of a reasonably large room or series of similar small rooms where an entire encounter might take place.
An act is multiple encounters (a typical map for an encounter site), a short overland journey, a quarter of the day (morning, midday, evening, night), or an extremely thorough exploration of a single room or area (taking 20).
The following standards exist for translating durations from game-world time into game-session time:
Converting Duration to Scenes and Acts
Concrete.......Abstract
2 minutes.....1 scene
20 minutes...2 scenes
40 minutes...3 scenes
1 hour..........1 act
6 hours........2 acts
12 hours......3 acts
18+hours......effectively unlimited
The amount of time you spend exploring an area determines your ability to locate traps and secret doors, as well as other details. Taking 10 is the default for exploration, which takes 1 scene. Blundering through an area treats your Perception roll as 0 + any modifiers, but does not count as a scene for duration. Taking 20 to thoroughly inspect an area is one act for purposes of duration. You may always take a deliberate Perception Check (rolling 1d20 + mods) as a move action to glance about your surroundings for anything that you may have missed.
Perception Checks for Speed
Type........Cost.................Perception Check Result
Blunder.......no action..........0 + Modifiers
Glance.........move action.....1d20 + Modifiers
Explore.......1 scene............10 + Modifiers
Inspect........1 act.................20 + Modifiers
Abstract Durations and Exploration
Roads: +25% (every 4th is free) ...Cross Mounted...Cross on Foot...Explore Mounted...Explore on Foot
Plains...........................................3 scenes.............1 act.................1 day....................1 day
Forest or Hill................................1 act...................2 acts...............1 day....................2 days
Mountain or Swamp.....................1 act...................2 acts................2 days..................3 days
Dotting as well. This would be an especially fantastic system for the play by post games I run I think, where we really don't need the bookkeeping associated with exact durations of effects.
dot
How does your exploration time system work for a rogue with Skill Mastery: Perception? They should be able to take ten on a glance, taking a move action rather than needing to explore instead.
How does your exploration time system work for a rogue with Skill Mastery: Perception? They should be able to take ten on a glance, taking a move action rather than needing to explore instead.
I haven't encountered that yet, but that certainly sounds reasonable to me.
I dare say, if the roll of the rogue continues to narrow into the trapfinder trope, then this is exactly the kind of thing at which they should excel.
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Blunder (0), Glance (d20), Explore (10), Inspect (20) - Do you still use these monikers?
I ask because I have adopted a "PPC" check system for my game: Passive Perception Check = 10 + HD + WIS or 10 + Perception modifiers (if better), serving as a base DC for whom Stealthy characters have to beat in order to get the drop on you, replacing the 360 degree vision phenomenon.
I don't!
I always thought it was a great concept, but the players never really picked it up. Also I never got out of the habit of just asking for Perception checks.
I think if we did a lot more dungeon crawling and the players were a bit more paranoid about moving forward, I'd revive this part of the rule.
Mainly what we use is Scenes and Acts for spell duration. And MAN does it make life easier, particularly as spells interact with the short rests from Strain/Injury.
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As someone who really enjoys the low bookkeeping of storyteller systems, but loves the sheer variety that appears in a system like Pathfinder, I really like this rule variant. Especially since I am currently playing an Investigator that spends the majority of their extracts on long-term buffs (Act or Unlimited by this ruleset). I literally have a notecard with 10 effects on it and their durations. Just for the 4-5 hour + effects. "Is it 6:45 am or 7:00am? It matters."
For simplicity with respect to Extend Spell (and similar "double duration" effects), I would have them move up (down?) one level on the chart instead of doubling (<2m becomes scene unless it has a specific static duration, like the 1-round lesser confusion). It's about the same, but much simpler and keeps you from having weird "extend is useless" dead spots of duration (e.g. CL6-17 for 10m/level spells; aka all-the-levels-that-matter). Still useless on super-long spells, but that's normal and expected.
I suppose the disadvantage of using up your slot every day on day(s) / level spells is made up for by not having to allow a re-rolled save or SR and such. Dominate Monster once and just let it ride...
For the perception thing, I would go with:
Passive (relaxed/day-to-day): Normal roll, no assists, +5 to DC for distracted, cannot typically use limited resources to boost the roll (e.g. inspiration without Expanded Inspiration).
Passive (spooked/dungeon): Normal roll, no assists, cannot take 10 without class ability
Active (Glance): "I take a quick look around." Normal roll, no assist, take 10 typically allowed. Only takes a move action.
Active (Inspect): "I want to search the place thoroughly." Normal roll, use highest result, everyone assumed to be both using Aid Another and making their own roll. Take 10 essentially always allowed. Takes non-trivial time (typically a scene, in these rules).
"Passive" is a bit of a misnomer, since I call for a roll when necessary. I trust my players not to get all weird on me about it. If they're having a party and I call for perception checks then say "Okay, as you were", then they just carry on. Sometimes that check is just for silly shit anyway, like "Someone snuck into the party without paying. Ooooh, naughty!" Gotta have comic relief :). Plus, passive perception is a PITA when things like double-rolls, re-rolls, conditional bonuses (e.g. favored terrain), or Inspiration come into play, so I prefer to let the PCs handle that.
PS: As a pro tip, if they "fail" a perception check you ask for and don't just outright bomb the roll, give the 1 or 2 highest rolls some random information like the above. Distraction! Especially helpful if they needed to notice for story reasons. Lets you delay the check for another time.
For simplicity with respect to Extend Spell (and similar "double duration" effects), I would have them move up (down?) one level on the chart instead of doubling (<2m becomes scene unless it has a specific static duration, like the 1-round lesser confusion). It's about the same, but much simpler and keeps you from having weird "extend is useless" dead spots of duration (e.g. CL6-17 for 10m/level spells; aka all-the-levels-that-matter). Still useless on super-long spells, but that's normal and expected.
I approve of this in theory.
In practice, this variant doesn't save you from the annoying spell duration lookup chore -- I wish it did -- and so most players are still thinking in terms of the spells original duration.
In that way, it's a failure of my design intent. I think the only thing that would completely replace the old durations is if Paizo miraculously adopted this system and printed them in the spell list. Probably not gonna happen.
However, we are still using the rule in every game! It might not save us the effort of looking it up or converting from minutes to scenes, but it still does one thing well enough to justify its use: it simplifies expiration.
Since we've been using the rule, there has never been any question of when spells will expire, and players have been able to judge time accurately in order to plan their spell usage. It takes a lot of pressure off of the GM. "The scene is over" is a lot easier to decide than "was that more than 12 minutes? More than 20?"
The perception rules don't really come up for us, as I've mentioned. I think they're solid rules, but for whatever reason we usually just use perception checks (or nothing at all).
Interesting, I wish I had seen this earlier.
One advantage of spell durations is that they can be used to put some pressure on the players if they take too much time. Telling the players that they just spent two minutes discussing what to do enforces the impression that time doesn't stop out of combat (and it doesn't stop for the opposition either). But I assume that works with your system as well. I'll give it a try in my next campaign!
Interesting, I wish I had seen this earlier.
I have a few more house rules on the site, take a look and see what else you might have missed!
One advantage of spell durations is that they can be used to put some pressure on the players if they take too much time. Telling the players that they just spent two minutes discussing what to do enforces the impression that time doesn't stop out of combat (and it doesn't stop for the opposition either). But I assume that works with your system as well. I'll give it a try in my next campaign!
My players are generally good at self-policing this kind of behavior. It might be because we're all (sadly) grown adults with limited time to spend at the gaming table. I do remember this being much more of a problem when free time was a thing.
I think it holds up even then. Most of the spells that you could use as a stick in this case are low-duration anyway. If none were in play, I could still see myself saying "are you going to spend a scene discussing it?"
That would speed things up right quick.
The simplified paperwork and the increase in meaningful decision-making vastly outweigh any loss in fidelity to the listed durations. In fact, duration itself can be a source of quibbling at the table, and this rule eliminates it outright.
BTW, if anyone is actually using the perception component of this rule for a dungeon crawl or otherwise, I would love to hear about it. I'm quite fond of that part, I just don't happen to use it.