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Skeld wrote:

Originally, in 3e, Knowledge(local) was intended for a specific area. So, if you lived in the Dales of FR, you might put ranks in Knowledge(Shadowdale). I don't know at what point that changed or was simply abandoned.

As a tangent, I think Perform originally allowed you take take up a different "instrument" for each rank (or x ranks) you put into the skill.


I played two games just as this was happening (along with a lot of other know-related hilarities). I think it was about 2002 or so. Definitely before 3.5, but firmly within 3.0.

Also, in this skill rework, perform would fall into competence, would have much broader categories, but I've no clue how to handle the whole sing=talk>anything that requires instruments as far as bards go. Better replacement skills, maybe? I don't know...

Wouldn't these things fit better into a feat rework than a fighter fix? I mean, yes, they're tangentially related, but the connection is by no means exclusive...

Have yet another version! Get it here. As announced, things have been proceeding very slowly, mostly due to NaNoWriMo.

I have been having fun lately not just with rebalancing and redesigning the feats, but also with envisioning various different character archetypes that might use them.
Here's a backline halfling slinger with a freakishly high Strength score:
Ammo Drop, Arc Slinger, Two-Handed Thrower, Small Marksman (thrown), Weapon Focus (thrown). With an 18 Strength, his basic sling deals 1d4+6(+2 within 50 ft) damage.
Want a more beefy version? Bam!
Ammo Drop, Sling Flail, Precise Shot, Bullseye Shot, Vital strike. Give that guy a heavy shield for additional AC, watch him snipe out enemies or bash their heads in for 1d3+4(+6 at BAB 6 for Vital Strike). What's that? People wanted a ranged attack combat maneuver feat? Impact Shot. Bam. Done.

(sorry, I am talking nonsense, it is a Thursday, so that means that the long day at work was especially long)

That thread has some neat ideas. Some are similar to what I already employ, but I still may end up lifting some others.

Sorry, but these forums don't allow me to update the OP... I value your comments, but you should know that I have already addressed some of your concerns (quick study, improvise) in the more recent version, available here.
Also, I don't really understand how "one of your weak saves is now a strong one" is needless added complexity. Ditto about the "grab one of these vocations that give you two class skills each". I dislike greatly the idea of "giving him something another class already has". The fighter is one of THE core archetype of the fantasy adventure genre; he really should have his own loosely defined (so that he can still fit several molds) niche (this is where Versatility comes in in the newer version).
I realise you weren't intentionally rude, but I do have a thing against jackers. Sorry if I came off a bit hard.

Sebastian wrote:
Any feat that gives +2 to 2 skills. It should be a single, generic feat, like skill focus, which can be taken multiple times and applies to the 2 skills chosen when the feat is taken. Don't get me wrong, I like the cute names of those feats, particularly the ones that help tie together two disparate skills, but they're a pretty big waste of space.

This and skill focus aren't combat feats, so I won't be going over them soon (if ever), but I do like the idea. Split focus is a good name for such a feat...

Arakhor wrote:
I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel. :) It's both important and specialised enough to need its own skill and if you make it an all-purpose military skill, then soldiers can take ranks in it as their Profession skill, tacticians (who need not be fighters) can take ranks in it and so on.

So far, I like either Warcraft (but it's a rather famous IP, so I'd rather avoid the association), Warfare or Battlecraft for the name of this skill.

Arakhor wrote:
If you go with your variant UMD idea, I'd stick to spell-trigger items like wands and staves, rather than spell-completion items such as scrolls. It makes sense that an animal handler could eventually make items of speak with animals etc., but it seems very odd that the non-scholarly types could bust out scrolls and potions, which are traditionally the domain of the learned classes.

I fear you may have misunderstood, I would not allow, say, an animal handler to craft a scroll of speak with animals without actually having the spell. That would be too much, and could break a lot of things. He could, however, make a handle animals check instead of a use magic device check in order to use a scroll of speak with animals, summon nature's ally, etc.

HOWEVER, casters would need to use linguistics to make scrolls, thaumaturgy to infuse arcane spells into wands or arcane effects into items, ontology to do the same with divine effects, etc. The semi-magical crafting by non-magical classes would come in the form of craftsmanship (+# weapon enchantments replicated in the form of various materials, high quality workmanship to replicate, say, 'of dueling' properties, etc.), alchemy (transmuting materials, making them spontaneously burst into flame when in contact with blood, etc.), and heal (potions, oils, etc of cure X wounds, remove poison, remove disease, restoration, etc). An alchemist would get to replicate a use-activated fireball-like one-shot item without any magical talent, but he'll never be able to replicate stuff like detect thoughts, animate rope, magic mouth, etc. Basically, I want an expert blacksmith be able to craft a +1 Keen Flame Burst Scimitar without caster levels or hilariously extensive feat tax.

Hmm... True that about Evaluate... I'll have to think up a skill to encompass tactics, strategy, logistics, siege, etc.
I'll try to not make thaumaturgy as a general UMD. Scrolls would all fall into either linguistics or their respective skill (stealth for invisibility, deftness for haste, animal handling for summon nature's ally, to name a few examples). But I'm still uncertain about that idea. Maybe I'll go along with SOME non-UMD skill-as-UMD and NOT axe UMD at all, leave it as an option for more generalist classes such as bards and rogues...

I'd have it available as an alternate favored class bonus between any race and any class that has 3/4 BAB or better.

I don't have anything against the additional resource mechanics like grit per se, but I do not think that the state of fighters and rogues would be best improved by the addition of those features. It's a thematic discrepancy, at least it is to me.

P33J wrote:

You know, it'd be a lot more helpful, constructive, and respectful if you would comment on the work presented in the thread, and not just come in and shotgun up some unrelated ideas. Thanks.

master_marshmallow wrote:
I think the key to really 'fixing' fighters is to get everyone to figure out what the fighter does other than fight. Everyone seems to want something, but have no idea what they want.

I have a pretty clear definition of what I want the fighter to be and do. Some of it also expands to other martials as well. However, without thoroughly reworking the feats, item creation, spells, and skills, giving some basic useability buffs is the mandatory first step.

Sellsword2587 wrote:

An option would be to simply move gaining additional proficiency into a favored class bonus.

1 favored class bonus = 1 simple/martial weapon proficiency
1 favored class bonus = 1/2 exotic weapon proficiency

This is a wonderful idea! Maybe it should give out some sort of "debt" option, so that you can start at level 1 with an EWP, but other than that, nice!

The BABness is not bad either, but it ends up automatically showering you with things even if you wouldn't want them, like it or not.

Funny thing about inherent bonuses: they don't stack with themselves, but the price increase is linear. Why is it so?
In my own campaign, I am running a sidequest about gathering "essential elixirs", alchemical substances that can increase ability scores, health, individual skills, etc. I am also running them as stackable, as they are linear price progression slotless items that only ever go as high as +5, and are still hilariously expensive, at ~25k for ability elixirs, ~5k for skill elixirs.

Regarding weapon proficiency:
It is impossible to price correctly. Spending a whole feat to get proficient with just one weapon is hilariously expensive. Getting proficient with a dozen weapons with just one feat is wasteful; it's like getting a set of knives when you order a brand new shamwow. The crux of the matter is the non-incremental pricing of feats. If there were feat points instead of feats, I could definitely see an Exotic Weapon Proficiency (single weapon) feat cost 1 feat point, compared to a Rapid Shot's 6. Exotic/Martial/Simple thing just further complicates the issue.
That is exactly why I think getting it out of feats and into skill point expenditures would be a bright idea.

To tell you the truth, I'm considering getting rid of Use Magic Device entirely, and fold the functions of that into certain other skills. Want to use a wand of cure light wounds, and you don't have that spell on your list? Give me a heal check. Wanna use any scroll, and you don't have the spell on your class list? Linguistics (maybe). That sort of thing.
The reasons for this are multiple. First, it would solidify magic as an integral part of the setting. In a real, functional universe, a master woodcarver WILL get SOME skill at using a scroll or wand of fabricate or something along those lines, but that should NOT mean that he is automatically able to use wands of fireball, scrolls of summon monster, or emulate the ability to smite evil, and it definitely should NOT mean that he no longer has any need for a craft (carving) skill.

Professions and performs are all included in the competence skills. It has a variable ability score attached, so jugglers use competence (juggling) (Dex), public speakers use competence (oratory) (Cha), playwrights use competence (literature) (Int), etc.

It's an interesting idea about the strategy and tactics skill. I might see it as yet another function of evaluate (as in, evaluate a tactical situation or plan out an enemy's likely response)... I'll have to think on that one yet.

Oh, wow! I made it! I actually made it through this entire thread! Go me!

(sorry for the necro)

So, yeah, I am in the process of making a fighter fix (discussion thread here). You folks might find it interesting. It gives the fighter an actual class feature (versatility, the ability to double up on fighter bonus feats, but only have half of them available at any moment) available from level 1, gives him a new strong save, 4+Int skill points, and as class skills he gets heal as default, and a choice of two more from a pool of pairs, with each skill appearing in at least two options. I also gave him an ability to power through some disabling conditions.
Now, while all this may seem extreme to some of you, bear in mind that the (in combat) abilities I included in the fighter fix only bring the fighter almost up to the paladin's standard of combat staying power, and give him the limited flexibility to adapt to a situation via feat set swapping. The chief differences between the paladin and fighter now is that the pally has a slight edge in survivability thanks to self-heals, buff spells, and condition removal, while the fighter has an equally small advantage in damage dealing and switch-hitting. Out of combat, the fighter still has no special "thing" that he does, but he can actually go the mundane route now and use skills where applicable.

Now, to comment on some of the ideas recently mentioned...

* Changing skills to modifier amount per level: There are no Con skills. There are only a few Dex skills. There is a grand total of two Str skills. 4+int is a far more elegant solution to the problem.
* Giving him his level or 1/2 level as bonus to certain skills: This might be a solution, but I dislike it as being "archetype limiting". The selection of skills is also very small. Might work for others.
* Fixing the feats will fix the fighter: No, it will not. I know this because, right now, I am in the middle of a feat rework. As long as combat feats stay "you get to do more damage" and not go into "you get to penetrate magic barriers and mentally dominate denizens of the lower planes", they will not fix the martial in relation to the caster. And all martials suffer from the feats being what they are. However, feats really do need some help.
* All feats should be twice as good for a fighter: I really, really dislike the idea of "this option is available to all classes, but this one class is supergood with it, so you're something of a dunce if you take it and you're not that class". Unless it's something minor and generic, like +1 HP and skill point per each feat, in which case I wonder what the point is...
* Giving the fighter a resource for extra goodness will help: Maybe. However, I, personally, like the idea of a "with an IV line of CLW, I can go all night long" fighter. But I don't see it as an entirely unworkable idea.
* The fighter needs world-defining narrative power: HOLY CAN OF WORMS, BATMAN! This, in and of itself, is enough to open up an entire 20+ page thread. Right now, I'll just point out that casters have the *option*, but not the *default class feature* of world-defining narrative power, and this thing really is campaign-specific.

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I threw out appraise as a stand-alone skill; now, every skill that helps craft something or deal with something (alchemy, craftsmanship, heal, thaumaturgy, etc.) will have an appraise-like application to identify and price items related to it. Evaluate is for sense motive, roughly gauge the capabilities of an observed creature, etc. The name might be a bit misleading, I admit.
About linguistics, every language has at least two or more accents or dialects or other variations, but not every language has a unique written component. Sure, I could start including the "this language uses the XYZ alphabet", but that'd be inelegant. To me, the idea of a first level adventurer from, say, Wales, with a thick welsh accent, being able to almost effortlessly pass as a minor noble from Córdoba (because he has an Int of 12 to learn spanish as well as english, and a point in linguistics) based on speech alone is a very pleasing trope.

One additional skill I am trying to come up with now is something related to cutting gems, crafting jewelry, appraising the minute valuables, etc. A name like lapidary, fine crafts, or something along those lines. It is distinct from craftsmanship, construction, and alchemy. Any advice on that one? What other useful ability should I consider adding alongside my existing ones?

Thanks for those!
At first I thought it'd be a piddly amount, but +6 at 17 is really not a bad bonus at all! I just wish it scaled by +1s more often instead of +2s rarely...
The other question still remains, though:

The Boz wrote:
And also, what other possible sources of inherent bonuses do you personally houserule as being available, and at what price?

What would the point of selecting trainings and specializing be if they all autoscaled up? It would increase the fighter's power in combat, but the "power" aspect of combat has never been the fighter's main concern...

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RedDogMT wrote:
...people are making arguments that because feats like Power Attack scale by level, other feat trees should scale by level as well...

That is not at all the argument people are making. It isn't "Hey, Power Attack is scaling, let's make other feats like that so that PA isn't OP", but rather "Feats are lolworthy and underpowered, let's make them scale! Power Attack is a good example." People are even talking about removing PA altogether (an idea I dislike), along with all other "trade X for Y" feats.

Also, no amount of feats could EVER overpower non-casters when compared to casters. Ever. A level 20 commoner with every single feat ever (except for spellcasting feats) and no ability to use spells or SLAs will be far, FAR below the power and utility of a magus, paladin, ranger, bard... The comparison becomes hilarious when you start to include wizard, druid, cleric, sorcerer, oracle, witch, etc...

"Proficiency feats are terrible."
I agree. I tried to see if I could fix it, but I am no longer sure. My most recent thought on the matter was to make it cost 1 skill point for a martial weapon, 2 for an exotic. Any thoughts on that?

I already gave my monk a ki power that allows him to pounce. It might be a bit too good, I'll have to do some more testing to see how it would work. I plan to do the same for rangers and paladins, and make the barbarian's Beast Totem pounce ability a stand-alone rage talent. However, the ranger, paladin, and barbarian "fixes" will be very limited in scope, likely included in a single thread, with just a single page of content each.

Meanwhile, I was thinking about expanding the fighter's training options with something along the lines of these two:

Offensive Support Training
Fighters that are used to acting in organized groups will often train hard to increase the capabilities of the entire group, not just themselves. A fighter with this training option grants a +1 bonus to attack and CMB rolls, as well as caster level checks to beat a target's spell resistance, to all adjacent allies, as well as those adjacent to any enemy that the fighter is adjacent to. The bonus increases by +1 every time the fighter selects this option. Multiple sources of this bonus do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.

Defensive Support Training
Instead of emphasizing the group's offensive abilities, some group leaders work on bolstering a group's defensive abilities instead. A fighter with this training option grants a +1 bonus to AC, CMD, and all saves to all adjacent allies, as well as those adjacent to any enemy that the fighter is adjacent to. The bonus increases by +1 every time the fighter selects this option. Multiple sources of this bonus do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.

Should probably find a nice place to point out that training option effects only work while fighter is up and about, and not while he's helpless or something silly like that.

Malwing wrote:
It technically is, but while you won't have feats require feats that don't exist anymore I am more concerned with feats in splatbooks and third party material that print material assuming that certain feats exist because they are in the core book.

Yes, I understood your concern. I won't expand the description of every single changed feat as "this counts as X", especially in the cases where I have folded one feat into a default ability (such as power attack/improved power attack). But I will probably add some sort of disclaimer in the opening description for GMs to use discretion and common sense in resolving requirement incompatibilities.

Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
Just a thought but shouldn't elven battle training grant proficiency in the listed weapons if you received training with them?

No, that would make the feat way better than comparable ones (such as, you know, the proficiency feats). I even toyed with the idea of making proficiency with one of the listed weapons a prerequisite, but then rejected that idea due to being inelegant (do you get it for that weapon alone? or all weapons, even if not proficient? do you automatically get it later if you become proficient?).

Arakhor wrote:
I like the idea of splitting up/codifying Craft skills (I did that in Star Wars d20 by appropriating the TOR crew skills). I also like the name (and combination) of Cunning and Thaumaturgy.


One thing I'm trying to do about crafting is to power it up a bit without resorting to magic. Things like more relevant material effects. When I find the time, I will expand upon this bit further.

Arakhor wrote:
Despite being a serious Elder Scrolls aficionado, I would break Jump out Acrobatics and add it to Athletics if you're going to merge in Escape Artist.

I... would not be against this idea.

Arakhor wrote:
I'd also suggest putting Sense Motive in with Bluff, so you can have a Cha/Wis skill that is used to oppose itself.

I really wouldn't like this. It would make the skill more important, and I'm not sure I like the self-countering property of something like that. Instead, I hope to make Evaluate more relevant and useful.

Arakhor wrote:
You have Craft (Potions) under Medicine, but you also have an Alchemy skill. You may also wish to put scribing scrolls under Linguistics.

Hey, this is an excellent idea!

One more note about the Linguistics skill is the way I run it: with each rank you can either learn another language (starter language(s) and Int bonus languages are just this), or to improve upon a language you already, making it possible to fake accents, spot dialects, that sort of thing. This rapidly cuts down on the "I know every language ever" effect of later levels. I like how your idea could actually make scholars more scholarly, and less "I just do magic."

Other than a manual and wish spell, what else can give a character an inherent bonus, as per the official rules?
And also, what other possible sources of inherent bonuses do you personally houserule as being available, and at what price?

Revan wrote:
Weapons usable with weapon finesse gain a 'finesse' quality which allows anyone to use Dexterity to atack with them.

I like this, and will probably steal it.

The result would be something like weapon finesse becoming a default option, with the finesse feat adding up to 1.0 dex to damage while using dexterity to attack in melee.

Malwing wrote:
So far I like a lot of what I'm reading.

Thanks :D

Malwing wrote:
...I think that there should be a clause to make it count as 'X' feat for the purposes of prereqs.

That would be a REALLY painful and clunky way to implement something that really should be intuitive on its own right. I plan on being consistent with my own work, so you won't see feats require feats that no longer exist or are renamed, but any future updates should be intuitively solved on a case-by-case basis.

Malwing wrote:
I like that Combat Expertise changes fighting defensively rather than be it's own thing. I still don't understand why that isn't how it worked in the first place.

That puzzled me greatly as well. I wanted to move a lot of those feat options into slightly inferior default options (power attack, for example), and then work on some rule/system consistency.

Thank you, kind ser, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

OK, was bored at work, so I came up with this.
Is this a good direction? Please give feedback.

That move sort of entails a much broader rework of the skills system...
Not that I am against it, just saying it's more work... Hmm... Maybe later.

Natural Spell itself needs a hard-core nerf. But I would be up for opening it up for all the races AND classes that could possibly get any kind of shape-shifting AND spellcasting.
But it really should be a +1 level metamagic feat.

NaNoWriMo started, so I don't want to do any more work on the feat rework until I get some nice feedback...
Here's the current write-up. Please give me feedback and stuff.

Made yet another version. This is now getting very close to the point at which I'd feel comfortable calling it Fighter 2.0 and being done with it.
As before, the Fighter Full Fix is available here.
Changes include two new vocations replacing two old ones (guard and missionary replacing confessor and navigator), expanded Quick Study functionality, improved and renamed Armored Skin into Defensive Training, improved Shield Training and Ranged Combat Training, slightly reworked weapon groups (including three new ones; defensive, hooks and medium blades), and a completely reworked and renamed Equipment Training into Improvisation Training.
Note: the new version uses some things from the great feat rework that I'm working on. This includes weapon groups as targets for focus/specialisation. It is not a required component, and replacing groups for specific weapons is trivial, but I just thought I'd point it out.
I hope you guys like it, and I'm looking forward to your feedback and ideas.

I dislike how the conversation is moving steadily away from feats and towards skills, ability scores, and general system mechanics.

The great feat rework that I've gotten myself into has been taking up most of my time so far. It has given me new insights into the state of the fighter, and where I want to take him. I now really like the second and third effects of the Quick Study ability as explained above, but I'll remove the BAB functionality of the first effect. This will tie in nicely with the feat consolidation and weapon group reforming (so that they work with weapon focus/specialization, etc).

Inspired by this and one other thread, I am thinking of using these groups in my own games:
New Group (included previous grups)
Divine (Planes, Religion)
Scholarship (Arcana, Engineering)
World (Nature, Geography)
Myth (History, Dungeoneering)
Society (Local, Nobility)
Anyone have any other ideas? I think 5 instead of 10 groups is much better, IMO.

I am saddened by the lack of comments so far.
Here, have some more spoilers.

Vital Strike
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: BAB +6.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage equal to your base attack bonus. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, but added to the total.

Death Or Glory
Even when facing a larger foe, you aren’t afraid to take great risks in order to finish the fight.
Prerequisites: Vital Strike.
Benefit: Against a creature of size Large or larger, you can make a Vital Strike attack and gain a +4 bonus to attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls. After you resolve your attack, you provoke an attack of opportunity from your target, even if that target was flat-footed. You must declare that you are using this feat before your attack roll. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, but added to the total.
Special: When your BAB increases to +11, the bonus to attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls increases to +5. When your BAB increases to +16, the bonus to attack, damage, and critical confirmation rolls increases to +6.

Devastating Strike
Pitting all of your strength and resolve against your enemy, you deliver a strike that is impossible to ignore.
Prerequisites: Vital Strike, BAB +8.
Benefit: The damage bonus from Vital Strike and Death Or Glory is multiplied on a critical hit.

Improved Power Attack
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, BAB +1.
Benefit: When using the power attack option, you gain a +2 bonus to all melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty you take on your attack. This bonus is increased to +3 when you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage remains +1 if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Normal: If your BAB is +1 or greater, you can use power attack to increase your damage by sacrificing accuracy. While doing this, you take a -1 penalty to your attack roll and gain a +1 bonus to your damage roll. When your BAB increases to +4 and every +4 thereafter, the attack penalty increases by -1 and the damage bonus increases by +1. You must choose to use this option before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Ranged Power Attack
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, BAB +1.
Benefit: When using the power attack option with a ranged or thrown weapon, you gain a +2 bonus to all melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty you take on your attack. This bonus to damage remains +1 if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Normal: If your BAB is +1 or greater, you can use power attack to increase your damage by sacrificing accuracy. While doing this, you take a -1 penalty to your attack roll and gain a +1 bonus to your damage roll. When your BAB increases to +4 and every +4 thereafter, the attack penalty increases by -1 and the damage bonus increases by +1. You must choose to use this option before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Finesse Power Attack
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, BAB +1.
Benefit: When using the power attack option with a light weapon, you gain a +2 bonus to all melee damage rolls for every -1 penalty you take on your attack. This bonus to damage remains +1 if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Normal: If your BAB is +1 or greater, you can use power attack to increase your damage by sacrificing accuracy. While doing this, you take a -1 penalty to your attack roll and gain a +1 bonus to your damage roll. When your BAB increases to +4 and every +4 thereafter, the attack penalty increases by -1 and the damage bonus increases by +1. You must choose to use this option before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Weapon Finesse
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, spiked chain, or natural weapons of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: When your BAB increases to +4 and while using the weapons that qualify for this feat, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls as well. Qualifying weapons that have a one and a half Strength modifier on damage, however, are limited to your full Dexterity modifier.

Update: Almost 20% done, just finished with the letter C (and all the feats that build off the feats that start with A, B and C).
Slow day at work FTW!

Before I continue, I want to share a couple of feats with you guys, see if you like the direction I'm going, so that I can fix stuff before I go too far...

Pinpoint Poisoner
You deftly use specially prepared needles to apply poison for maximum effect.
Prerequisites: Poison use class feature, Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks, Heal 3 ranks Adder Strike.
Benefit: Instead of using Adder Strike, you can use a poisoned blowgun dart to more accurately and efficiently deliver poisons as you strike your opponent in melee. Drawing such a dart is a swift action. The DC of any poison delivered this way increases by +1, +2 if the attack results in a critical hit. The dart itself does not increase your melee damage, and the attack dan deal non-lethal or even no damage with no penalty.

Blind Fight
You are skilled at attacking opponents that you cannot clearly perceive.
Prerequisites: Perception 1 rank.
Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded.
Special: If you have 5 ranks in Perception, your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment. You may still reroll your miss chance percentile roll for total concealment. If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker within 30 feet, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
If you have 10 ranks in Perception, your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%). You may still reroll a miss chance percentile roll as normal. If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks, regardless of the range. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.

Charge of the Righteous
You charge undead and fiends with confidence in your righteous cause.
Prerequisites: BAB +1.
Benefit: When you charge an undead creature or an evil outsider, you do not take the –2 penalty for charging.
Special: When your BAB increases to +6, you gain an additional +2 bonus to attack and damage while performing a charge of the righteous, and a +2 bonus to AC against the target of your charge. This continues to increase by +2 at BAB +11 and +16.

You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, BAB +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full BAB against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Special: When your BAB increases to +6, you can take another additional attack against another adjacent target that is also within reach and has not been attacked by you in this turn. The number of targets and attacks continues to increase by 1 at BAB +11 and +16.
Cleaving Finish
When you strike down an opponent, you can continue your swing into another target.
Prerequisites: Cleave.
Benefit: If your melee attack drops a target to 0 or fewer hit points, your attack action immediately becomes a cleave.
Cleave Through
You are ferocious at hewing lesser opponents.
Prerequisites: Cleave, BAB +11.
Benefit: When using Cleave or Great Cleave, you may make a single 5-foot step as a free action before making your additional attacks. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional Cleave attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites.
Special: When your BAB increases to +16, you can make a 10-foot step instead.

Improved Combat Maneuver
You are skilled at applying a specific combat maneuver. You can select this feat multiple times, but the effects do not stack; each time you do so, choose another maneuver to improve.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing the selected combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to execute that maneuver, and a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense against that same type of maneuver.
Special: When your BAB increases to +11, the CMB and CMD bonus increases by another +2.
Greater Combat Maneuver
Your masterful execution of a particular combat maneuver grants you increased bonuses. You can select this feat multiple times, but the effects do not stack; each time you do so, choose another maneuver to improve.
Prerequisites: Improved Combat Maneuver (see text), BAB +4
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on CMB and CMD with the selected combat maneuver that you already have the Improved Combat Maneuver feat for, and you gain an additional bonus depending on the selected maneuver:
Bull rush: Bull rushed foes provoke attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Dirty trick: The penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, and removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.
Disarm: Disarmed weapons land 15 feet away from your target, in a random direction.
Drag: Dragged foes provoke attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Grapple: Maintaining the grapple becomes a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Overrun: Foes knocked prone provoke attacks of opportunity.
Reposition: Repositioned foes provoke attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Steal: Foe does not realize an item has been stolen until it tries to find it.
Sunder: You can freely divide the damage of a sunder attempt between the item and the wielder.
Trip: Tripped foes provoke attacks of opportunity.
Maneuver Strike
Your critical hits can initiate combat maneuver checks. You can select this feat multiple times, but the effects do not stack; each time you do so, choose another maneuver to trigger by a critical strike. Only one maneuver can be triggered by a critcal hit. You may choose to use this feat after you make your confirmation roll.
Prerequisites: Improved Combat Maneuver (see text), BAB +7.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee attack, you can try to attempt a particular combat maneuver, in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack. If you confirm your critical, you get the free CMB check to execute the combat maneuver that you have the Improved Combat Maneuver feat for.

There, that's a neat enough sample...

OK, quick, think up some more! I'm taking up massive feat reworks as my next pet project. Going to limit myself to combat feats only initially.

I like the general idea, GeneticDrift. I was hoping to fold the Cad archetype into the Equipment Training option more thoroughly. Take once, you gain proficiency with improvized weapons and unarmed strikes, as well as the usual broken/repair bonuses. Take twice, get 19 crit range for improvized and unarmed, as well as the usual broken/repair bonuses. Take three times, gain x3 crit multi on improvized and unarmed, as well as the broken/repair bonuses. Something like that.
Yeah, I kinda have a dozen more ideas for this, and will probably reject like 90% of those :p Will probably open a new thread on this when it gets ripe enough for a full Fighter 2.0, like I did for my monk.

This would only bugger rogues and other mundane stealthies further.
Zombie Ninja's idea is one I went with when designing my own system. Perception in it is a seventh ability score that covers senses and ranged weapon attacks. One thing that made it more needed than in PF, however, is that the system is for Deus Ex, meaning modern ranged combat with guns and plasma rifles and what not.

My current thoughts are aimed at restructuring Quick Study to function like this:

Quick Study (Ex): A fighter's skill in combat is equal parts natural talent and endless hours of practice. At 4th level and thenafter, the fighter starts to develop greater and greater efficiency with marital studies.
First, when checking to see if he qualifies for a bonus feat (but not a versatile feat) that has a BAB or ability score requirement, a 4th level fighter treats his BAB and relevant ability score as 2 higher than they actually are. All other prerequisites are unaffected. The effect of this ability increases by 1 every three levels after 4th (+3 at 7th, +4 at 10th, and so on).
Second, every time a fighter gains a fighter bonus feat or a versatile feat, he can choose to learn a new fighter bonus feat or versatile feat(s) in place of the same that he has already learned. He can not exchange a bonus feat for a versatile feat this way, or vice versa. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat or a single pair of versatile feats at any given opportunity, and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Third, the fighter can spend an entire day in rigorous training with a new weapon or maneuver. Doing so allows him to change the weapon or combat maneuver for all the feats that specify such. For example, a fighter with weapon focus (greatsword) and weapon specialisation (greatsword) could spend the day training with a greataxe in order to lose his weapon focus (greatsword) and weapon specialisation (greatsword) feats, and gain weapon focus (greataxe) and weapon specialisation (greataxe) instead. That same fighter could spend an additional day to change his improved trip and greater trip for improved sunder and greater sunder. The fighter must meet all prerequisites for these new feats, and he is limited to exchanging like for like; elephant stomp can not be traded for felling escape, for example.

Well, that's the idea bouncing around in my head right now. Still not happy enough with it to commit it to e-paper.

It also increases your ability scores by an equal amount. As far as I know, the most OP thing it enables you to do is to get a Vital Strike of a higher attack number earlier (getting it as early as level 4), but... that's just Vital Strike, so whatever.
It enables you to take feats that require higher Int or other ability scores, for some mysterious reason. Or to not bone your build when you want dex-intensive stuff (TWFing)...
I will likely buff it to include both the bonus feats AND the versatile feats, but that leaves me with a question: Why would you take a bonus feat instead of a versatile pair? And, more importantly, is this even a bad thing?

LoneKnave wrote:
This is perfect. Also very moddable without adding any archetypes, thanks to how the trainings work.

That is one of the overarching goals of my class fixes; to fold in all of the archetypes into optional class features that the character gets during progression.

LoneKnave wrote:
The only thing I kinda sorta don't like is agressive charge, although I do get that that's the way PF works, so it is just needed to be able to get a full attack.

I am of the opinion that all of the five major frontline classes (barbarian, fighter, monk, ranger, paladin) should have some type of access to a charge>full attack ability. However, while I want this ability to be optional for most of these, I think that the fighter really should have it automatically.

LoneKnave wrote:
I do feel like if, say, Vital Strike didn't suck it wouldn't be needed though. In general, after this, the only thing fighter needs is fixing feats that suck to make more builds available.

I like the skill focus feat autoscale thing, and if I ever get around to redoing some of the feats, I think that is direction they'll go. So weapon focus automatically becomes greater weapon focus at BAB +8, weapon specialization automatically becomes greater weapon specialization at BAB +12, etc. But there are only a few of these minor outliers, I do not think that most feats need a thorough rework.

LoneKnave wrote:
EDIT: one more thing. I think the trainings should probably be forced to alternate. Something like "you can not select the same training twice in a row". I know it probably wouldn't be OP, but it feels a bit bad to me to be able to dump everything into the same training when the point here should be versatility. That's just an opinion though.

The thought has crossed my mind, but I ultimately decided against it. Grabbing a +9 attack and damage with a chosen weapon group (+18 at level 20) at the expense of all the other bonuses really should be an option, I think.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I love the imagery conjured up from the "preacher" fighter. Also the "spy" should have bluff instead of escape artist.

I was having so much fun thinking up those! Stuff like preacher, mercenary, and gambler are my favorites.

Bluff and disguise is already a combination of the swindler... but you're right. Maybe I should rename the spy into infiltrator or something similar?

rainzax wrote:


too good at 1st level! (DIP). i would bump it to 4th level at least. or consider allowing the 4th level ability to 'retrain' feats 1/level become 1/day. basically you should check out the vancian fighter thread if you haven't already.

Maybe I should have made the wording more clear; it only works with fighter's bonus feats, not all feats or all bonus feats any of the other classes could get. So if you dip fighter for Versatility, you get just two feats. And what I really wanted is for the fighter to have an actual class feature right at 1st level.

I did check out the vancian fighter, just like I did many of the other fighter fixes. I'm not sure I like the vancian feats on a fighter. Some other class? Sure, in order to compete with the many caster martials out there, I could see that being a thing, in some limited way... but changing feats by selecting ANY without having to learn them (like a wizard adds spells to his spell book)? Not sure I like it.

rainzax wrote:

Walk It Off
this is a neat idea. especially because the implications for action economy scale with the severity of the condition itself. is Shake It Off a swift action? love the name(s)!

Walk It Off is a move action, Shake It Off is a teamwork feat that just increases saves when people stick together.

I should also probably make it more clear that walk it off does NOT remove any other effects of the ability, just the condition. Not sure, what do you think?

rainzax wrote:

Aggressive Charge

another neat idea. but i don't like the name nor nominate a replacement. i think the -4 AC for full attack (at +0) is fair. it even has another drawback (that a clever foe can brace). maybe an additional drawback can be that the fighter cannot make attacks of opportunity on a round they make an aggressive charge? then, you could remedy that drawback with a feat which restores the privilege? just an idea.

That type of penalize and restore I don't particularly like. Especially because it's a somewhat minor effect, but still needs to be kept track of, and it could have some bad interactions with other feats.

I have toyed with the idea of making the AC penalty be -2 + (-2) for each additional attack, so that would be -4 at level 6 and 2 attacks, -6 at level 11 and three attacks, and -8 at level 16 and four attacks... I decided against it, I think it would be too harsh, especially when compared with the monk version I already have (it's a 2pt ki power) or the ranger (full attack against favored enemy) or paladin (full attack with smite evil, but only until you miss) versions I'm planning on.

rainzax wrote:

i like your change to weapon proficiencies, and also, may i propose:

Vocation (alternate)

I definitely do not want to make vocation optional; especially if the option is between in and out of combat utility.

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Sorry for not responding, had to finish up some stuff like college, get a job, etc.
I took all the feedback from this thread and two other places, and I crunched through it, and what came out was this:
Fighter Full Fix
Biggest new changes:
1. Versatility. It is by far the biggest change now. Floating feat goodness, yay!
2. Buffed Walk It Off (and renamed, as there is a feat named Shake It Off) with 10th and 15th level progression that includes more conditions.
3. Took all the DR advice, folded all that armor and weapons training into a single, flexible feature. Also retooled the capstone.
4. Fighter now starts with an exotic weapon proficiency. Yay!

Thanks to some feedback from other sources, I've modified the things a tiny bit.
I have buffed the poisoner's resistance ability a small bit, which massively improved the wording of it.
I buffed the Poison Use feature to remove self-infliction on attack rolls, making it slightly better.

Add class level to DC Poison Use!? As in, the whole thing? That would pretty much break the game. Most DCs are 10 + 1/2 class level + pertinent ability. That DC is somewhat difficult to beat for a weak save, but not difficult to beat with a strong save. 10 (or up to 26) + class level? Unbeatable. It'd break the game.
"Reforging" and stacking poisons through multiple applications are more easily controlled, and reward proactive effort as well.
Well, that's at least how I see it.

I don't like the idea of one feature overwriting another, so instead of flat immunity, a scaling resistance that adds goodies (swift and lasting poison talents) seems good to me. However, I am unhappy with the current wording on the ability, so I'll change it to be simpler and a tiny bit more powerful.

The alchemist is my next project, and he'll have something very neat and similar to the bombs to replace bombs and round up his kit somewhat. I didn't want to copy that mechanic onto the poisoner directly.

Thanks for the feedback! Let me respond to some of your points.

Categorizing things makes it easier to apply certain mechanics down the road; this will be important for the rest of the alchemy tweak, and is also apparent now, with the poisoner, and how he gets better with first simple stuff, and then more and more complicated compounds.

Ability penalty is cheaper than damage or drain, yes. Its DC is also lower, and it is quite problematic to have it disappear as soon as the poison is cured.

I like the extraction rules, I think I'll use them in some form. Milking snakes, for example, screams Unstable Crafting to me, either that, or obtaining a % of base cost towards some poison. The alchemy rules will later include things like working in bulk, batches, with help, stuff like that.

I like the slower poisons, so I whipped up a modification option right now to make it possible. Good idea, that!

And I want the Poisons category to be only about poison: harmful effects. I toyed with the idea to include antidotes as well, but rejected that; that (and slow working regenerating stuff) belongs to the Concoctions category, which I will expand upon later.

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