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Thoughts on 5th (next) edition D&D...


D&D 4th Edition (and Beyond)

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I just watched an hour video with Mike Mearls? on the next edition of D&D. I personally got into D&D in late 1991 early 92 as a kid, so I'm a little old school. I liked 2nd edition alot, but it didn't take me long to convert to 3e, as a player I loved customizing characters, I was always looking for ways to make my character unique and 3.5 did exactly that. When 4e was coming out I was happy, I thought 3e and d20 got kinda crazy, but it was a new system and a fresh start would be good... with an updated revised 4th edition, not a whole new system. I own every Pathfinder hardcover and think their books are great, but (and this might cause an arguement) I think the OGL ruined D&D. I liked it when D&D was D&D and TSR was the only publisher. WotC bombed on 4e and over produce products(and way to many 160 page books)even in 3e some. I think there going to go back towards 3e, but they have some wild ideas. If you get a chance youtube it.

I guess what really ticks me off is I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Birthright, Ravenloft... but paizo can't do anything with them and Golarion just doesn't thrill me.

What do think you'll do when 5e comes out, stay true with ... Dungeons & Dragons or is that Pathfinder now?


It is standard operating procedure for game designers to start creating new rules (or *cough* 'rules clarifications') that wreck the existing game system as time goes on, so that they can publish a new game edition which magically fixes all the problems.

That being the case, I suspect Pathfinder 1.5 to be announced within the next year (or maybe 18 months).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Implying that the flurry of blows clarification is a deliberate attempt to make way for Pathfinder 1.5.

Classy.


I don't think Pathfinder needs another edition anytime soon(what can you change if you want to keep it compatable with 3.5) , and if WotC plays their cards right, they can make 5e more of a 3x then a 4.5, Pathfinder may not get a chance.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gebby wrote:
I don't think Pathfinder needs another edition anytime soon(what can you change if you want to keep it compatable with 3.5) , and if WotC plays their cards right, they can make 5e more of a 3x then a 4.5, Pathfinder may not get a chance.

Doubtful. Paizo is staffed by people with a LOT of experience in the industry. Their business model is Pro-Active, rather than Re-Active. There's no reason for Wizards plans for 5th edition to influence their business model in any way.

Wizards of the Coast is still running off the "repackage, resell everything every 5 years" model of RPG design, partially as a result of Hasbro's influence, and in so doing they've alienated a good portion of the gamer base. As long as their paradigm is one based around Core-Rules as business-model, they're not going to get that portion back. Paizo's bread and butter is Adventures for a stable core system. It requires them to move significantly fewer hardbacks to make their bottom line, and thus doesn't necessitate edition turnover at nearly that rate. Their model is solid, and it's working. Releasing a new edition of PF in reaction to Wizards would be extremely foolish, from a business PoV. Not when Paizo's base loves the consistency and stability of the system they've inherited.

Whatever D&D 5.0 ends up being, Paizo is quite dandy right where they are. They don't stand to lose much because even if 5.0 is a wonderfully built system (and it might be) unless WOTC changes their model to one where selling core rulebooks is no longer their bread and butter (thus driving the 5 year cycle of edition changes), they're just not going to draw the numbers back from Paizo.

The ship has sailed. Pathfinder isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Way too early to say what I am going to do at this time. I can say for certain I am happy with Pathfinder for my D&D type experience. WOTC really has their work cut out for them if they want to gain me as a customer. Video was long on talk but rather short on substance.


Darkwing Duck wrote:

It is standard operating procedure for game designers to start creating new rules (or *cough* 'rules clarifications') that wreck the existing game system as time goes on, so that they can publish a new game edition which magically fixes all the problems.

That being the case, I suspect Pathfinder 1.5 to be announced within the next year (or maybe 18 months).

I think that, whenever a new edition of Pathfinder arrives, there is about a zero percent chance of Paizo calling it "Pathfinder 1.5." :P Personally, I give them 4-5 years. I, for one, would welcome a new edition of Pathfinder; I love Paizo's adventures and setting material, but 3.5 cruft means I'll always have a love/hate relationship with the original Pathfinder.

As for 5E...I'll buy it. Obviously I don't know whether I'll play it until I see it, but I hope I love it. Nowadays I'm way more attracted to games like Savage Worlds or C&C that minimize prep time and GM workload. YMMV.


If "brand loyalty" was a major concern, I'd still prefer D&D over Pathfinder, so clearly I'm more about the game than I am the publisher. (I do play 4e too, but I prefer Pathfinder.)

If 5e is a better game, I'll prefer it to Pathfinder 1.5. I'll just have to wait and see.


WarriorPoet I hope your right. I love my Pathfinder hardcovers, but to this day I have refused to buy their 32 and 64 page paperbacks. Maybe their campaign setting is better then I think it is but the Inner Sea World Guide(the only campaign book I own - hardcover), to me, is very bland. It seems like a history book, yes some others do to a little, but they have more characteristics unique (flavor) to there settings. I've stuck the 3e settings. Maybe its the novels.

Beyond the Campaign Setting what book(s) would you recommend to someone your trying to get into the setting. Adventures or supplements.


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I won't even look at 5e, not as a potential buyer anyway.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Gebby wrote:

I just watched an hour video with Mike Mearls? on the next edition of D&D. I personally got into D&D in late 1991 early 92 as a kid, so I'm a little old school. I liked 2nd edition alot, but it didn't take me long to convert to 3e, as a player I loved customizing characters, I was always looking for ways to make my character unique and 3.5 did exactly that. When 4e was coming out I was happy, I thought 3e and d20 got kinda crazy, but it was a new system and a fresh start would be good... with an updated revised 4th edition, not a whole new system. I own every Pathfinder hardcover and think their books are great, but (and this might cause an arguement) I think the OGL ruined D&D. I liked it when D&D was D&D and TSR was the only publisher. WotC bombed on 4e and over produce products(and way to many 160 page books)even in 3e some. I think there going to go back towards 3e, but they have some wild ideas. If you get a chance youtube it.

I guess what really ticks me off is I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Birthright, Ravenloft... but paizo can't do anything with them and Golarion just doesn't thrill me.

What do think you'll do when 5e comes out, stay true with ... Dungeons & Dragons or is that Pathfinder now?

I suspect I'll do what I do now and use D&D to run PF adventures in Golarion.

.
The method of release will be important to me - if it's digital, I'll be less enthused. I like the Character Builder of 4E but dislike that so much material is exclusively in PDF format. I have a horrible feeling the rules are going to be delivered electronically. :(


Pan wrote:

Way too early to say what I am going to do at this time. I can say for certain I am happy with Pathfinder for my D&D type experience. WOTC really has their work cut out for them if they want to gain me as a customer. Video was long on talk but rather short on substance.

Totally agree


Has anything been said about what kinds of mechanics 5e will use?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Has anything been said about what kinds of mechanics 5e will use?

They were not very clear, but kept rambling about empowering DMs to run a game the way they wanted. They said they want to take the best of all editions and put them together. Skills will use ability checks? Try searching dungeons and dragons 5th edition on youtube and you will find it.


Couple of notes I've gathered:

-DMs being more 'empowered' to do things they want, then specifically adhere to the rules. Why this is a good thing is beyond me, but I hope it's used so DMs don't feel the need to needless roll dice. I DON'T hope it's used so DMs can now say whatever they want, the rules be damned, when it comes to DM/Player conflicts. I fully expect DMs I play with to remain 85%-95% within the rules-as-written.

-Wizards and Clerics are automatically Vancian casting again. No questions asked. And wizards have the 'option' to pick at-will like feats that function as spells. So like Reserve Feats again, but with less 'oompf' and requires character resources.

-Ability Scors randomly rolled as Standard practice AND more emphasis with their application to the world. Also, the Score might break the set DC, so a Guy with a Strength of 18 goes up to a locked wooden door with a break DC of 15 and he just knocks it down, no roll required.

-Character creation will be one of many ways, from the basic model to advanced customization. It's expresed as "You have X-amount of money to eat lunch. You can get a value meal, with a specific set included or you can go to the buffet and pick out what you want.

-Plugin Rules. Basically additional tables for you leisure such as Specific-location hit tables, Fumble tables, Firearm tables which are all optional.

That's all from the top of my head, but theres actually very little in the way of real mechanics. No idea if there will be Base Attack Bonus, if they'll incorporate 1/2-level, how many saving throws or if there will be conventional saving throws or Non-Armor Defenses like in 4E.

Andoran

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I believe there has been talk of Saving Throws being ability checks - so for example you would make a Dexterity Save rather than a Reflex Save, or a Constitution save to resist a poison instead of a Fortitude check.

Of course this may not be what it finally turns out like, but it makes sense to me, I never understood why there were saves separate from abilities, in Shadowrun I used to make a Body test to resist a poison, I didn't need another derived stat.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Since 3.5e fanbase has been pretty much taken over by Paizo and the entire 4e fanbase could fit into one small bus, the only direction that remains viable for WotC is to try and reach out to the OSR crowd. This means making the basic ruleset simple (already evidenced by removal of skills, no point buy), "empowering DMs" (likely some measures to prevent those pesky players from sneaking up with Pun Puns or divine persistent kind of stuff), return to vancian casting and other things that smell of 1e/2e.

Since the old-school crowd is currently split between a zillion of gygax-nostalgia games (Swords and Wizardry! Castles and Crusades! Swords and Castles! Wizards and Sorcery! etc. etc. etc.) with no strong brand leader, this seems like a legit move for WotC at this point.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:

Since 3.5e fanbase has been pretty much taken over by Paizo and the entire 4e fanbase could fit into one small bus, the only direction that remains viable for WotC is to try and reach out to the OSR crowd. This means making the basic ruleset simple (already evidenced by removal of skills, no point buy), "empowering DMs" (likely some measures to prevent those pesky players from sneaking up with Pun Puns or divine persistent kind of stuff), return to vancian casting and other things that smell of 1e/2e.

Since the old-school crowd is currently split between a zillion of gygax-nostalgia games (Swords and Wizardry! Castles and Crusades! Swords and Castles! Wizards and Sorcery! etc. etc. etc.) with no strong brand leader, this seems like a legit move for WotC at this point.

I disagree about the size of the bus, but share your opinions on the rest. Fighting to fill the space being filled by PF would be silly, in my view.

Cheliax

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
Gebby wrote:
I don't think Pathfinder needs another edition anytime soon(what can you change if you want to keep it compatable with 3.5) , and if WotC plays their cards right, they can make 5e more of a 3x then a 4.5, Pathfinder may not get a chance.

Doubtful. Paizo is staffed by people with a LOT of experience in the industry. Their business model is Pro-Active, rather than Re-Active. There's no reason for Wizards plans for 5th edition to influence their business model in any way.

Wizards of the Coast is still running off the "repackage, resell everything every 5 years" model of RPG design, partially as a result of Hasbro's influence, and in so doing they've alienated a good portion of the gamer base. As long as their paradigm is one based around Core-Rules as business-model, they're not going to get that portion back. Paizo's bread and butter is Adventures for a stable core system. It requires them to move significantly fewer hardbacks to make their bottom line, and thus doesn't necessitate edition turnover at nearly that rate. Their model is solid, and it's working. Releasing a new edition of PF in reaction to Wizards would be extremely foolish, from a business PoV. Not when Paizo's base loves the consistency and stability of the system they've inherited.

Whatever D&D 5.0 ends up being, Paizo is quite dandy right where they are. They don't stand to lose much because even if 5.0 is a wonderfully built system (and it might be) unless WOTC changes their model to one where selling core rulebooks is no longer their bread and butter (thus driving the 5 year cycle of edition changes), they're just not going to draw the numbers back from Paizo.

The ship has sailed. Pathfinder isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Agreed 110%.


I miss those giant thick hardbounds wizards used to make on evrything from dragons to demons, cities, cold adventuring and halrua. Paizo is regrettably offering primarily 32 pagers.

Now, me going into the gaming shop i look around and look at a few of the paizo stuff. Some lil pagelet at 20 euros, a big nice thick cthulhu book (and oh so rare..) at 27 euros or remembering how the super thick draconomicon sold at 50, but most others went at some 35.

Ive always been one for price per page..
At 96 pages the adventure paths just about cut it at 20e. Just because they are adventure paths. But thats about it aswell.

I feel poorer with the 4e, having been robbed of my weekly hobbypurchases on stuff to buy.

(and no, i dont do creditcards. this order is a b-day prezzie from mom)


Gebby wrote:

WarriorPoet I hope your right. I love my Pathfinder hardcovers, but to this day I have refused to buy their 32 and 64 page paperbacks. Maybe their campaign setting is better then I think it is but the Inner Sea World Guide(the only campaign book I own - hardcover), to me, is very bland. It seems like a history book, yes some others do to a little, but they have more characteristics unique (flavor) to there settings. I've stuck the 3e settings. Maybe its the novels.

Beyond the Campaign Setting what book(s) would you recommend to someone your trying to get into the setting. Adventures or supplements.

heh, another one just like me.

I do the adventure paths tho, but yeah. Just the inner sea, and well yeah..


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

City of strangers
Guide to korvosa
Lost cities of golarion
Dungeons of golarion

Those are my favorite campaign setting books and each have their own flavor, in my view. Heart of the jungle was another - it surprised me how.much I liked it, given i had pretty much zero interest, per-release.

The various "??? revisited" books are good to, in my opinion.
As are the three books of the damned.

Those are all sixty four pages. The thirty two page booklets are a little more niche. It's easier for them to "miss" in my experience. (though there are some I really like).


Gorbacz wrote:

Since 3.5e fanbase has been pretty much taken over by Paizo and the entire 4e fanbase could fit into one small bus, the only direction that remains viable for WotC is to try and reach out to the OSR crowd. This means making the basic ruleset simple (already evidenced by removal of skills, no point buy), "empowering DMs" (likely some measures to prevent those pesky players from sneaking up with Pun Puns or divine persistent kind of stuff), return to vancian casting and other things that smell of 1e/2e.

Since the old-school crowd is currently split between a zillion of gygax-nostalgia games (Swords and Wizardry! Castles and Crusades! Swords and Castles! Wizards and Sorcery! etc. etc. etc.) with no strong brand leader, this seems like a legit move for WotC at this point.

[dry]That would be the fanbase which has more than 50,000 subscribers to DDI fitting onto a small bus, would it?[/dry]

Actually, your whole post implies that the only way to go is back to one of the previous editions. I think that's what they are doing, but it doesn't have to be. They could do something different from all of those, or switch to a different existing system like FATE or BRP. I don't think the result of doing the latter would be very mush like AD&D, but then that does follow the trend of WotC making games which aren't much like it.

Andoran

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Since 3.5e fanbase has been pretty much taken over by Paizo and the entire 4e fanbase could fit into one small bus, the only direction that remains viable for WotC is to try and reach out to the OSR crowd.

Like Steve Geddes I would disagree with the size of the 4e bus. If the 3.5 base that has moved to Pathfinder is to be considered a significant size of market then the 4e market is likely of a similar scale, a theory given some credence by how the Icv2 sales ranking put 4e tying with Pathfinder or coming top in 6 of the 9 quarters that PF has been around (and in the other 3 quarters 4e has come 2nd to PF).

If anything WotC need to be careful not to alienate their 4e players too much or they could lose a significant player base - there is even a thread on RPG.net about Saving D&D means saving 4e.

I think for D&D Next to be a commercial success WotC are hoping to attracts the OSR crowd, the 3.5 crowd and the 4e crowd.

Me personally, I am looking forward to D&D Next especially with the modular approach and the idea of being able to cram in the three pillars of play (social, exploration & combat) into a single hour of game play.

Andoran

Gorbacz wrote:

Since 3.5e fanbase has been pretty much taken over by Paizo and the entire 4e fanbase could fit into one small bus,

Oh you mean several fleet of small buses that cover the area as far as the eye can see and more. Carrying a lot of passangers. The ones that number at least 50.000 or more as DDI subscribers.

Not to sure I'm happy as Vancian casting being offered as the only option for casters oit of the book. I would have prefered having the option of being able to alter that. Nor am I thrilled with the option to pick at-will like feats that function as spells. Espcially if they cost resources and are nerfed. I'm willing to wait and see about 5E yet I'm hoping they offer something new at least and not the same mechanics yet again in a prettier package.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was really excited for 4th ed, and there were a lot of things I liked about it, especially healing surges, rituals, and having every monster do something unique mechanically speaking. But the endless flood of character powers became nauseating, and none really struck me as being all that different from a handful of base abilities. Since feats effectively became meaningless, even less relevant than Pathfinder's new traits, this was it for your characters, and it just wasn't appealing to me. The way PCs were handled just wore on me - the most crucial part of the game was just boring, no matter how many new base classes they put out. It was just oversimplified and bland, but at the same time overwhelming in its seeming-options.

What I'd love to see is bring in some of the design philosophy and better ideas of 4th to the 3.x rules set. But somehow I don't think that's what we'll get. There's no going back for WotC - Pathfinder has closed the door behind them.

In my wildest fantasies, I imagine D&D crashing hard enough to have the license sold off to Paizo, and then my favorite people start putting out products for all my favorite old campaigns. I'd take a 32 page booklet on Dark Sun or Spelljammer written by the Paizo staff any day I could get it. I love Golarion, but side projects into my nostalgic old favorites would be a dream come true.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

If the 4e bus was longer, there would be no 5e, simple. The alleged 50k DDI subscribers might be a nice number, but apparently it was not nice enough for the Shareholder Overlords at Hasbro.

But that's beside the point. The fact that WotC re-released 1E books is a good indication which radar they want to appear on. 5E will be a rules-light offering aimed at grognards and new players who look for simplicity instead of Byzantine baroque of the 3.5 ruleset (which I adore, but I can see how it can put off a newcomer).

Andoran

So no matter what anyone says your right. Got it no point to discuss let alone try to reason with such a person on that issue.

Along with a gift for knowing what going to be in the upcoming version of D&D without Wotc having released a playtest document. Amazing. I have some lotterynumbers I want you to tkae a look at. Care to help a fellow gamer out.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Why the hostility?

Andoran

I don't get posters who come on a message board. Post something that they know full well is going to be inflammatory and bother other posters. Then try playing the " why are you mad?". You know full well why aad playing the I can't understand card is beneath you.

I'm willing to discuss topics with you. Yet when people prove your statement is wrong and you still insist your right. Well not exactly conductive to having a fun discussion.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

The only solid "proof" in discussion sits on computers of WotC employees. But since I do try to understand the basics of market economy, releasing a new version of a product means that the previous one has ceased being as profitable as expected. And since 5E by all signs (this time, evidenced in design blogs) is pretty far from 4E at any rate ("no powers", "gridless play") I do believe that my position holds quite a lot of ground.

You're free to think otherwise, but as far as I remember, this is a discussion forum and not a courtroom.


I ve read an article on the early days of announcement of dnd5 of Monte Cook's colummn on the dnd site. Legends and Lore or something like that. Basically, the article explained the main traits of each dnd edition and stated that dnd5 was going to be an amalgam of every edition as to embody the dnd spirit so every group could play dnd as they wanted. Something amongst those lines.

While I had a great deal of respect for monte cook for his work on 3.x, I couldnt help but notice the article was weak on one key aspect of the proposal. HOW?

It strikes me as a contraditory and impossible task. Wich is to please everyone who played his edition of dnd. Thats not going to happen. You cant please everyone. No real need to discuss any game mechanics or flavor between 3.x ed and 4 ed, everybody knows how it works.

I remember seeing one of those "oh boy I hate 4ed" videos on youtube upon the announcement of 5ed. The author said that when people asked what he played, he would say he played dnd. He had a pathfinder DM screen/shield (we call it a shield on brasil, almost sure you guys call it screen) and had admitted transferred his games to pathfinder. But he would answer he played dnd because thats whats he played. Because pathfinder is what dnd 4ed should have been.

I agreed with him right away. I play dnd now, and its new name is pathfinder. I dont care what wizard$ is doing now. I dont buy stuff from them anymore.

My personal perspective on 5ed? If wizard$ try to please the 3.x crowd, they betray and lose the 4ed crowd. Its what this whole 5ed movement looks like. Its a lost battle already.

Brand fanboys not included in this 'math'.

What's Paizo doing about 5ed? They stated before and I believe them so far. They make their own standards instead of following others. Sure they wont change their game because of dnd 5ed or world of warcraft or whatever is on the hipster parades.

Andoran

Gorbacz wrote:

The only solid "proof" in discussion sits on computers of WotC employees. But since I do try to understand the basics of market economy, releasing a new version of a product means that the previous one has ceased being as profitable as expected. And since 5E by all signs (this time, evidenced in design blogs) is pretty far from 4E at any rate ("no powers", "gridless play") I do believe that my position holds quite a lot of ground.

Yes a new edition is coming. Still does not mean that 4E does not have fans. There at least 50.000 registered DDI fans. Unless your going to say that number is made up. That may not seem like a lot to you yet neither can that be discounted because it does not fit into your argument that 4E has no fans. 50K is a lot of fans many other rpg companies kill to have. Unless you cna prove otherwise your wrong. Sometimes that happens. I can be wrong on certain topics to.

Gorbacz wrote:


You're free to think otherwise, but as far as I remember, this is a discussion forum and not a courtroom.

No it's not a courtroom yet you insist on lighting a powerder keg then wonder why people call you out on that. Stop trying to stir things up on these boards. It's not fun. You might think it is but it's not.


Gorbacz wrote:

If the 4e bus was longer, there would be no 5e, simple. The alleged 50k DDI subscribers might be a nice number, but apparently it was not nice enough for the Shareholder Overlords at Hasbro.

But that's beside the point. The fact that WotC re-released 1E books is a good indication which radar they want to appear on. 5E will be a rules-light offering aimed at grognards and new players who look for simplicity instead of Byzantine baroque of the 3.5 ruleset (which I adore, but I can see how it can put off a newcomer).

Y'know, to paraphrase Jules from Pulp Fiction - "check out the big brain on Gorbacz! That's right, you're a smart motherfarker!"

I'm not even being sarcastic here, Gorbacz is on to something. Why would Hasbro re-release 1e stuff if not to prep the market on a new, rules-lite, system that harkens back to the early years?


memorax wrote:
Yet when people prove your statement is wrong

People have done no such thing.

(They've just thrown out this "50,000" number. Is that a lot for an RPG? Who knows. But it's not proving anything.)

Yeah, I'm going with the "Y U MAD?" internet meme, here. People don't like being told that there comparatively aren't a lot of fans of their game of choice? Meh.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Yeah, exactly. I was wondering about that all along - I mean, that's a 100% charity product, it's not some form of CSR so where the hell is the business point of oh now I see it.

Andoran

Arnwyn wrote:


People have done no such thing.

(They've just thrown out this "50,000" number. Is that a lot for an RPG? Who knows. But it's not proving anything.)

Yeah, I'm going with the "Y U MAD?", here. People don't like being told that there comparatively aren't a lot of fans of their game of choice? Meh.

I'm not angry. It has been proven that 4E has fans. You might not think 50K is a lot yet one assumes if your registering for DDI that chances are your a 4E fan. One does not register for a service you pay for if your not a fan. So unless you have proof beyond opinion that 4E has no fans the argument imo ihas been one. That's like saying WOW has no fans then someone posts a link to the number of people regisred for Wow then still saying it has no fans. So prove to me that 4e has no fans. Beyond telling mea new edition and that they don't exist. You can't really. Just like someone cannot say that Pathfinder has no fans

FYI someone disagreeing with you is not someone who is angry. Or is this the latest new interent tactic when someone disagrees with you.


memorax wrote:
It has been proven that 4E has fans.

No one said 4e didn't have fans. Even Gorbacz didn't. Of course 4e has fans.

Andoran

Arnwyn wrote:
No one said 4e didn't have fans. Even Gorbacz didn't. Of course 4e has fans.

It's not a questioon of having fans. Having a lot of fans. If you think 50K is not a high number maybe you should talk with the smaller rpg companies that would sell their souls to get that number. Saying that 4E does not have a lot of fans means nothing if you can't back that up. Which so far no one has.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I'll rephrase my point: if 4E customer base was commercially viable for Hasbro, then:

1) there would be no 5E since the existing system sold just fine
or
2) 5E would be built upon 4E engine and such message would be sent out right away to stop people from doubting.

Since neither is the case, and the new edition, from all the sources seen so far, is a major change from 4E, it leads me to believe that its' primary market target group isn't the 4E fanbase.

Considering that going for 3.5/PF fanbase would require a frontal confrontation with a system that's out for 3 years and has a massive setting/adventure/3PP support, the most valid option (and an option I'd personally love to happen) is going after the old school crowd, since there's no real competition in that segment and WotC can just walk in and brush all those retroclones aside.

Andoran

Gorbacz wrote:

I'll rephrase my point: if 4E customer base was commercially viable for Hasbro, then:

1) there would be no 5E
or
2) 5E would be built upon 4E engine and such message would be sent out right away to stop people from doubting

Since neither is the case, and the new edition, from all the sources seen so far, is a major change from 4E, it leads me to believe that its' primary market target group isn't the 4E fanbase. Considering that going for 3.5/PF fanbase would require a frontal confrontation with a system that's out for 3 years and has a massive setting/adventure/3PP support, the most valid option (and an option I'd personally love to happen) is going after the old school crowd, since there's no real competition in that segment and WotC can just walk in and brush all those retroclones aside.

Still no convinced Gorbacz. That's like saying that 3.5 was not commercially viable. Yet Paizo thought otherwise and made a succssfull and popular rpg with it. People were saying the same thing about 3.5 not having fans and they were proven wrong. I'm bowing out since your not going to convince me otherwise and this thread is going off topic.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

"Commercially viable for Hasbro" does not equate to "commercially viable for Paizo" on oh so many levels. Paizo could run with picking up the discarded 3.5 system because for a company that could fit into a short bus (ok, minus Jason, he's too big!) it was a gold mine, for Hasbro it was a small number next to MtG's and My Little Pony numbers.


memorax wrote:
That's like saying that 3.5 was not commercially viable. Yet Paizo thought otherwise and made a succssfull and popular rpg with it.

3x had run its course, just like 1e and 2e before it. Also, 3x came with a pesky OGL agreement that must have factored into Hasbro's plans as well. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 4e has that unique feature.

memorax wrote:
People were saying the same thing about 3.5 not having fans and they were proven wrong.

When Paizo created Pathfinder, they took advantage of the OGL and the traditional swell of loyalty that tends to surround an outgoing game edition. It was kind of the perfect opportunity, really.

Andoran

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Basically 4e is likely a doing very well commercially for an RPG (consistently in the top 2 of ICV2 charts, 50,000 DDI subscribers (apparently). Basically 4e fans nowhere near would "fit on a bus".

However, 4e is likely not considered to be doing very well commercially for the D&D RPG. WotC no doubt have seen the OSR crowd and also how many people stuck with 3.5 or moved to PF rather than move to 4e.

WotC have realised that the market has fragmented (even before 4e) and with 4e it fragmented significantly more. Thus they are looking to try to regain ground on all those fragments, to create a new game that the OSR, 3.x and 4e players can hopefully enjoy.

I agree that the AD&D reprints are likely to start winning back goodwill in the OSR crowd, but I don't think that is the only crowd they are targeting.

It sounds like the core of D&D Next will be very much simple and OSR-like, but that rules modules (still in the core book) will allow for more crunchy games including supporting battlemaps and minis.

Andoran

For me to get on board with 5E and not just buy the core they would have to have some decent suppor for their campaign worlds. I'm not saying support like we had under 3.5 yet not the little support beyond DDI articles like we have for 4E. Along with the ability to play both pre and post spellplague FR.

Makes me wonder if 5E will have an OGL. Probably not. Or a very restrictive one imo. You can make your own 5E product but you also have to make sure it requires the core PHB or something like that.

loaba wrote:


When Paizo created Pathfinder, they took advantage of the OGL and the traditional swell of loyalty that tends to surround an outgoing game edition. It was kind of the perfect opportunity, really.

It was the perfect opportunity and Paizo took the risk and it payed off. Now with PF being popular it's easy to say it was the smart move. Chances are though t could have backfired. Fortunatel it did not. Still don't expect 2E PF to be as similar as 1E imo because the perfect opportunity is not going to be there a second time. They may have to make some sweeping changes to get some gamers to buy a 2E. With 3.5 and PF not sure you can get the same mileage another time out of those rules without any changes.


Maccabee wrote:
but for me Pathfinder IS D&D right now.

I agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we're alone in it. Truly, I think 4e was too much of a departure from the old.

Also, I do hope that Gorbacz is correct in his assessment. If 5e is a rebirth of 1st edition Dungeons & Dragons, then I'll pretty much have to pay some attention to it. If it's just more 4e-like crap, then it will be easy to ignore.

Andoran

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
loaba wrote:
Also, I do hope that Gorbacz is correct in his assessment. If 5e is a rebirth of 1st edition Dungeons & Dragons, then I'll pretty much have to pay some attention to it. If it's just more 4e-like crap, then it will be easy to ignore.

Hopefully D&D Next will be able to be a rebirth of 1e, 2e, 3e and even 4e (as some of us enjoy and appreciate that 4e-like "crap"). If it can be done it will be great, because I will be able to use the same game for quick one-shots for newbies (usually probably just the core system) and also for more in depth and crunchy campaigns (using the core system + modules).


So is it really going to be called D&D Next?
That's going to look really silly in 5-6 years when they start talking about another edition.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

D&D Beyond Next, simple!

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