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I've never played PFS, but I get the impression that if you want to, it's not that hard to break the system.
I found Ogre's writeup on self-imposed difficulty levels for PFS characters pretty interesting. https://plus.google.com/115022859420675980618/posts/8ZGscC9Suog
I think this is an out-of-game issue with an out-of-game solution. i.e. he needs to be convinced that it will be more fun for everyone if he builds less super-effective characters because the nature of PFS is that the GM cannot adapt to his fantastic characters the way they could in a home game. In the conversation, it probably wouldn't hurt to emphasize the part where he is awesome at building characters, because that seems to be what he enjoys. I really like the hard mode analogy in Ogre's article.
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Wow, this has generated more response than anything else I've posted before! Thanks for all the feedback.
I have audited his charecter a few levels back, as Dood says, level 6 and AC 35. He always fights defensively, BTW, and the character was legal at that point. I'll check again, though I expect that if anything is amiss it's an error - he's not cheating, he's just very good at building characters.
As to the rules lawyering, I have 5 GMs who have asked to not have him at their table, and at least as many players as well. (i am not one of them, by the way). For different reasons, though: GMs don't want a player who argues every call and tries to find a grey area to exploit every round; other players don't like being overshadowed and having someone interrupt their turn with a long lecture on what they "should" be doing.
I'm not trying to kill his character or "teach him a lesson", I am honestly trying to find a scenario that I can challenge him with, as an example. In my experience, the games with the best stories are the ones where you almost die, and he has literally never had that.
And yes, this is a PFS situation, although I asked it here as it happens in home games as well.
The only scenario that comes to mind would be king xelos of old azlant. But then again his saves are probably pretty good and unless he's flatfooted he's near untouchable. So even the incredibly hard scenarios would be a breeze for him unless the enemy has a +30-35 to hit.
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@Purple: I agree with "minor rules quibbles should wait until after the game", but I'm not seeing how it's a response to "let's not assume the guy's a jerk".
I never assume that anyone is a jerk, I'm sure there are probably reasons behind how he acts; however, that being said ... I don't have to be his psychiatrist when I'm also running a game.
Being a GM doesn't mean that I have to put up with him being a jerk to me due to the previous actions of someone else.
Being a GM doesn't mean that I have to let the players walk all over me if they either disagree with my decision or want to me one of "those" players.
Being a GM means that I have to take into consideration the fun of all the players at the table and if the rules lawyering of the one negates the fun of the many I can and will put a stop to it in the nicest way possible.
Fascinating link Beebs.
I don't see the point of having an AC that high in society to be honest. A 20 still hits you, and most monsters won't have attack bonus high enough to hit on lower dice rolls until you get to level 10-12ish, and even then only the heavy hitters (fire giants have +21 to hit for instance).
Anyways tank characters normally aren't hard to deal with, let enemy know he can't be hurt easily, divert aggro elsewhere. But in this situation the trip monk is still dangerous, but even then trips don't do damage, and are more annoying than anything else. Have the enemy ignore the monk as much as possible, and swarm party members than can be hit.
So, is there a way to challenge him? Are there scenarios which would reduce his effectiveness enough to put him at risk, or at least give him something different to do? In a campaign I could deal with it, but I'd like to find a way in-game to challenge him.
Swarms.
CMB's.
AoE's.
Ranged or flying foes.
A mirror.
Sunder.
Larger than Large creatures.
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Something that I have learned over the many years of gaming is the fact that just because you may have found a RAW loophole or something that allows you to build a crazy character, doesn't mean that you should play it. You can pretty much look at your character and know if it's going to cause trouble. We had a guy back in 3rd edition who built a broken but legit Psion build and the DM had to throw stuff that would turn us to powder just to challenge him. Now his defense was that it was RAW. We got tired or arguing with him so we told him to leave, his idea of fun didn't match the group's.
Wow, this has generated more response than anything else I've posted before! Thanks for all the feedback.
I have audited his charecter a few levels back, as Dood says, level 6 and AC 35. He always fights defensively, BTW, and the character was legal at that point. I'll check again, though I expect that if anything is amiss it's an error - he's not cheating, he's just very good at building characters.
As to the rules lawyering, I have 5 GMs who have asked to not have him at their table, and at least as many players as well. (i am not one of them, by the way). For different reasons, though: GMs don't want a player who argues every call and tries to find a grey area to exploit every round; other players don't like being overshadowed and having someone interrupt their turn with a long lecture on what they "should" be doing.
I'm not trying to kill his character or "teach him a lesson", I am honestly trying to find a scenario that I can challenge him with, as an example. In my experience, the games with the best stories are the ones where you almost die, and he has literally never had that.
And yes, this is a PFS situation, although I asked it here as it happens in home games as well.
What are his saves like?
Something that I have learned over the many years of gaming is the fact that just because you may have found a RAW loophole or something that allows you to build a crazy character, doesn't mean that you should play it. You can pretty much look at your character and know if it's going to cause trouble. We had a guy back in 3rd edition who built a broken but legit Psion build and the DM had to throw stuff that would turn us to powder just to challenge him. Now his defense was that it was RAW. We got tired or arguing with him so we told him to leave, his idea of fun didn't match the group's.
i dont think this.character is a loophole. He is just stacking all the AC he can, while fighting on the defensive. The problem is PFS does not allow for room to properly challenge him. Swarms will work, and magic missiles too. A NPC with AC 40 will.make the fight to stall
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If he is using expertise, and fighting def. , he maybe has Crane Style too, that's +4 dodge when fighting def ( with 3 ranks in acrobatics ), +2 from combat exp. , tons of dodge bonuses.
A simple Mage Armor + Shield combo gives you +4 armor and +4 deflection on AC also.
This is already almost +15 to AC and can be done almost at lv1 from start.
He might have a high ac and all, but why dont the monsters just ignore him?
If there is any other melee characters in the party, then simply have your monsters fight while prone and just kill the rest of his party. If the rest of the party is ranged characters then you need to go after them with some extra mooks, or simply make the monk fight closer to them so that a 5 foot move action from the monsters while prone, is enough to get close and hit them.
If you want to specifically get after him, then there are multiple aoe spells that require fort saves or something similar that the monsters should be able to throw at him.
But the biggest problem i see with his character, is how can he actually succeed on that trip attack? To get those levels of AC he must have a high dex and wisdom, so anything above 12 str seems a stretch. If he then uses flurry of blows to make the attacks he will have a + 8 BAB -2 flurry + 1 str + 4 feats + 1 weapon? - 2 expertise - 2 defensively = +8.
And those +8 is on the first attack he makes a round, his attack rutine looks like +8/+8/+3 with trips, pretty darn bad at level 8 imo. Normal CR 8 monsters have a CMD ranging between 21 and 29, and any PC race (which PFS loves to use) should also have atleast 22 or more at that level. This means that he can keep 1 person/monster tripped per round, if he is lucky. So basically i would say ignore him and kill the rest of the party.
And just to poste my guess of how to get 46 ac
from black powder:
Stats : Str 8, Dex 20, Con 8, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 9
4: Wis
8: Wis
AC
10 (base)
1 (size if small)
6 (Dex, assuming 22)
5 (Wis, assuming 20)
3 (Monk AC bonus with Monk's Robe)
4 (wand of Mage Armor someone uses on him, or maybe does it himself)
4 (wand of Shield, which he'd have to use on himself)
3 (Barkskin via Qinggong)
2 (Ring of Protection +2)
4 (Crane Style w/ 3 ranks of Acrobatics)
1 (Dodge, a prereq to Crane Style)
= 43 AC. Could be higher if he could somehow afford +4 Belt/Headband.
Touch would be far lower, looking at 32, and if it's the first round of combat and monsters go before him, you can also ignore the Crane Style boost making it lower (AC 28 until he gets to declare he's fighting defensively).
if you add amulet of natural armor and a combat expertise feat then he will hit the 46 ac.
But we are still looking at using atleast 3 feats and around 30k gold, leaving him with just enough gold for a +1 weapon at level 8. But again if he is small and has str 8 then his CMB will be +5/+5/+0, pretty laughable.
As a small character with low strength he'll be easy picking for any huge creature with swallow whole... does his monk use/have any light slashing or piercing weapon?
If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Spiders ^^
Any large spider should have a decent chance... that's +12 to the DC without considering any size difference or strength or anything else. And spiders tend to have poisons: his fortitude save is his lowest save, right?
Salamaders/Nagas... though you might have trouble to find one with the right CR
Highly complicated trap that involves INT and CHA rolls.
Not as good as shield spells but a ring of force shield is a bit pricy but offers a +2 that non fighter types won't get from other places.
He got ranger levels, I doubt he took them without a reason. Maybe he is taking two weapon defense or something like that.
He has 5 feats from level. He could take 1 more from combat style
So he can take
Dodge.
(Twf)
TwD
iron hide.
finesse
Crane style.
He can get Infiltrator Archetype from Ranger. There he gets +2 Nat armor for 10 min x ranger level.
With a starting dex of 18 and wis 16, and bonus from levels, a +2 headband and +2 belt, you get:
10 (base)
+5 (DEX)
+5 (WIS)
+3 Combat Expertise
+3 Crane Style
+1 3 ranks acrobatics
+1 Dodge feat
+1 Monk bonus
+1 ioun stone <insight>
+2 ring <deflection>
+4 (mage armor potion) <armor bonus>
+2 twd <shield bonus>
+3 (barkskin via archetype) <enhancement to nat armor>
+2 nat armor (infiltrator)
+1 Iron hide feat (+1 natural armor)
+2 Monk robe
46 armor, and he doesn't even need to be small. No need for UMD for wands either.
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Hmmm, level 8 monk (manuever master)
Str: 7
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18)
Dex: 22 (24)
Con: 14
Chr: 7
Crane style (wing, riposte), combat expertise, improved trip, greater improved trip, dodge, combat reflexes
Amulet of agility
Ring +1
stone +1
belt of Dex, headband Wis
Monk's robe
AC: 10 + 4 (assume Mage armor cast) + 11 (stats) +4 (defensive) +3 (combat expertise)
+4 (ki) +2 (magic items) +1 (dodge) +2 robe = 41
Attack: +8 BAB +7 dex -5 (flurry, combat expertise) = +10 damage: d8+7 each
trip: +10 +4 (Wis) +4 (feats) = +18 (manuever master).
Not shabby; and great saves to boot
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If the other players in the group are not having fun when Joe plays his PC, it's up to the other players to tell him so and politely suggest he play a different PC. Then hopefully Joe will play something else.
It's not cool for the GM to find ways to pick on the PC, IMO. I also don't think that sermonizing to Joe about how he's playing the game wrong is useful, either.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's not cool for the GM to find ways to pick on the PC, IMO. I also don't think that sermonizing to Joe about how he's playing the game wrong is useful, either.
The OP already stated that he's not looking for ways to pick on him, just suggestions for scenarios that could provide a challenge in PFS.
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It's not cool for the GM to find ways to pick on the PC, IMO. I also don't think that sermonizing to Joe about how he's playing the game wrong is useful, either.The OP already stated that he's not looking for ways to pick on him, just suggestions for scenarios that could provide a challenge in PFS.
I guess my point is that if everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then why would you try to change that?
If not everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then I agree something should be done (ideally by getting everyone on the same page regarding their expectations for the game).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's not cool for the GM to find ways to pick on the PC, IMO. I also don't think that sermonizing to Joe about how he's playing the game wrong is useful, either.The OP already stated that he's not looking for ways to pick on him, just suggestions for scenarios that could provide a challenge in PFS.I guess my point is that if everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then why would you try to change that?
If not everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then I agree something should be done (ideally by getting everyone on the same page regarding their expectations for the game).
I think it's more about challenge type than challenge level. They guy can't have made the perfect character who can handle everything. Scenarios with flying or otherwise untrippable creatures will give the less laser-focused PCs some time to shine, for example.
I guess my point is that if everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then why would you try to change that?I think it's more about challenge type than challenge level. They guy can't have made the perfect character who can handle everything. Scenarios with flying or otherwise untrippable creatures will give the less laser-focused PCs some time to shine, for example.
That didn't answer my question at all (you can replace "level" with "type", if you like).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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That didn't answer my question at all (you can replace "level" with "type", if you like).I guess my point is that if everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then why would you try to change that?I think it's more about challenge type than challenge level. They guy can't have made the perfect character who can handle everything. Scenarios with flying or otherwise untrippable creatures will give the less laser-focused PCs some time to shine, for example.
What I meant was that changing the type of challenge won't affect anyone else like it would affect him. If Valeros, Kyra and Harsk are all okay with the current challenges, they'd probably be okay with a different type of challenge too. It's probably all the same to them, more or less.
Society play isn't too hard, if he wants an optimize his character and play on easy mode, let him.
What I meant was that changing the type of challenge won't affect anyone else like it would affect him. If Valeros, Kyra and Harsk are all okay with the current challenges, they'd probably be okay with a different type of challenge too. It's probably all the same to them, more or less.That didn't answer my question at all (you can replace "level" with "type", if you like).I guess my point is that if everyone in the party is happy with the current level of challenge, then why would you try to change that?I think it's more about challenge type than challenge level. They guy can't have made the perfect character who can handle everything. Scenarios with flying or otherwise untrippable creatures will give the less laser-focused PCs some time to shine, for example.
Still didn't answer my question. If everyone's happy, why change the type of challenge at all?
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Still didn't answer my question. If everyone's happy, why change the type of challenge at all?Ah, I think I get you now.
The answer is that - as I understand it - everyone's not happy.
Right. So I think the most effective solution (by far) would be to say "We're not happy when you play that PC, would you consider playing another one?" rather than scheming about which modules will make that one (and only one!) player less happy with his chosen PC.
Hogarth is my new idol.
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PFS is easy to break, because you can build powerful as the rules allow and the GM does not have the power to change encounter levels. Encounters were built against sub-optimized characters, so optimized often cakewalk them. There's not a lot you can do; his saves are even probably pretty good. As long as everyone is having fun you don't have a lot you CAN do; just let him do what he wants. This is not a home game; for better or for worse, your creatures are "stuck". You can, at best, encourage them to play up so things will be a bit more of a challenge. But synths, mega-monks, and potion-alchemist machines can be difficult to harm AND deal massive damage, given no GM "I won't allow that" interventions.
The rules lawyering I would handle OOC; just asking him to please not interrupt the game all of the time unless it is an emergency. That is the one point I cannot tolerate.
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Right. So I think the most effective solution (by far) would be to say "We're not happy when you play that PC, would you consider playing another one?" rather than scheming about which modules will make that one (and only one!) player less happy with his chosen PC.Still didn't answer my question. If everyone's happy, why change the type of challenge at all?Ah, I think I get you now.
The answer is that - as I understand it - everyone's not happy.
And I said this back on page 1.
Everybody, this is a PFS character. The GM can do NOTHING about it if the character is correctly built. We are not allowed to deviate from what is written.
This is why although I enjoy PFS, I don't find PFS very challenging at all. The scenarios are written so people who have bad characters can play and enjoy themselves. I build good optimized characters and the good players in my area for PFS do that as well. We rarely have problems with encounters. When we do, it's usually because of bad rolls (like surprised, and then losing initiative, or NPCs roll crits, etc). Sometimes it's because the encounter is actually very difficult, but this is just not the norm.
This player needs to understand that people are starting to refuse to play with him, and PFS rules cannot help him with that. In fact, PFS has "Don't be a jerk" as a rule, so a GM could use that against him.
And I said this back on page 1.
Well, to be specific, I'm suggesting that the other players discuss it with him and you suggested that the GM discuss it with him. That's not quite the same; I'd prefer for the GM to avoid taking a side, if possible.
PFS has a 20 point buy.
edit:In PFS the GM can not add or alter monsters either.
PFS has a 20 point buy.
edit:In PFS the GM can not add or alter monsters either.
Ok i did not know that, but now im just wondering why anyone would play optimized chars there, just seems like its a cakewalk.
Im pretty sure that PFS ends at level 12 (or around there right?), and his ac 46 is plenty enough to be unhittable even at that level. Therefore the only thing i can possibly think about doing, is employ smart tactics and try to get him moving (only 1 trip attack then), or simply ignore him completely. If you manage to actually TPK the rest of the party you can always try to gang up on him and hoping to roll nat 20. Other than that there doesnt seem like you can do anything, maybe talk to him about gimping himself 15 ac or more ?
