Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

951 to 1,000 of 2,075 << first < prev | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | next > last >>

Oh, also wanted to say that telling the OP that they are being a jerk as I have seen in more than one thread in this post is uncalled for, against the rules of these boards and ...well, your a jerk if you do it. So there!


I have some new questions.

I'll preface it that it relates to the WBL disparity arguments that the charging crafter creates.

Would you, as a player, be offended if the crafter took the feats with the sole intention of creating items just for himself? The WBL will also be skewed towards the crafters favor.

If you are offended, would you then demand that the crafter start creating items for the rest of the party at cost?

Isn't demanding a player play his character the way you want him to play more offensive that a player charging for providing a service to the rest of the players?


Coming up on the thousandth post pretty soon! Has anyone made plans for the 1000 postiversary yet?


@OP: We have a crafting sorcerer in our current group. He charges half, but he has the Eldritch Smith trait (houseruled because he isnt a dwarf) so all the weapons, armor, and other metal objects he makes for us cost him 5% less to craft. The +2 scimitar he just made me cost him 3,800 and I paid him 4,000 for it. I get it at book cost and he still made a profit. Talk to your DM and see if you can take this trait and make most of your companion's items at cost to make them happy, but still keep your profit margin.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Benly wrote:

So has anyone started making Objectivist "Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" jokes yet? Because every time I see a poster insisting on calling the parties involved in this hypothetical situation robbers, Objectivist "looter" rhetoric is all I can think of.

I remember I saw a Khmer Rouge comparison while skimming the thread, that was pretty classy.

There's no such thing as a conversation that made progress by putting Ayn Rand into it.


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
really?

Seriously, Sel that analogy was so f~#@ing stupid I don't even know what to say.

Really likening offering a service at above cost to breaking into someone's house and tearing their arm off unless they give you what you want? If you seriously think that is even vaguely valid I'm sorry but you need serious mental help.

So in a group without a crafter do you have your arms torn off by default?

Also as to why the crafter shouldn't craft for free please take a look at Revel's excellent post by crafting at cost his feat actually becomes worse than it is by crafting for himself so if he's crafting at cost the group is actually "robbing" him by reducing the value of his feat.

I think its a very valid analogy actually, if a somewhat violent one.

Lets make something nicer then:

Your character is down to 1 hp. The cleric has a heal spell.
The cleric tells you there are exactly three options: Stand there and heal naturally. Pay him 100 gold for a heal spell. or go into town and *hire* a cleric to cast it for FMV.

Now assuming those are your actual options: Is he stealing from you?
Do you *really* *really* have those other two options?
Not really. He's stealing from you.

If you are out in the desert dying of thirst and the guy beside you offers you half of his canteen for all of your earthly wealth- he is stealing from you. Because you have no reasonable choice.

"pay my 100g fee or go pay his 2000g fee" when its something /you should be doing anyway for free/ is theft because telling me my option is to pay 2000 instead of 100 isn't really an option. Its a false choice.

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"
No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

And I wouldn't tolerate it.

-S


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

You can't take the +5 to speed up item crafting unless:

- he work for a "uninterrupted 4-hour block" of time
- "in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine"

This: "Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)." preclude using the +5 rule to speed up crafting while working on the road unless:
- you cast mage magnificent mansion every day and work in it (so you get a controlled environment)
- you have a ring of sustenance, so that your 4 hours of work every day don't slow down your group (and that mean giving up a ring slot to do that)
- then you have the small problem that all the spell used to craft during the night aren't available the next day (even if you have a rig of sustenance you can't memorize spell used in the last 8 hours when you recharge you spellcasting slots)

So ring of sustenance and speeding up craft are nice and dandy, but they work only when you are benefiting from downtime or you are level 13+ and willing to spend substantial resources to get the controlled environment.

I've been familiarizing myself with the magic item creation rules for years.

I see absolutely no evidence that you couldn't get a full 4 hours of crafting done each day in a distracting or dangerous environment by adding +5 to the DC to work faster. Where are you getting the notion that distractions preclude that option?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

I think its a very valid analogy actually, if a somewhat violent one.

Lets make something nicer then:

Your character is down to 1 hp. The cleric has a heal spell.
The cleric tells you there are exactly three options: Stand there and heal naturally. Pay him 100 gold for a heal spell. or go into town and *hire* a cleric to cast it for FMV.

Now assuming those are your actual options: Is he stealing from you?
Do you *really* *really* have those other two options?
Not really. He's stealing from you.

If you are out in the desert dying of thirst and the guy beside you offers you half of his canteen for all of your earthly wealth- he is stealing from you. Because you have no reasonable choice.

"pay my 100g fee or go pay his 2000g fee" when its something /you should be doing anyway for free/ is theft because telling me my option is to pay 2000 instead of 100 isn't really an option. Its a false choice.

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"
No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

And I wouldn't tolerate it.

-S

Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. The crafter isn't holding a gun to your head like your proposed psycho cleric is.

Fighters and other characters manage to go about their adventuring lives perfectly fine without the crafter. Just because the spellcaster picks up a crafting feat doesn't change that, nor does it suddenly change his obligations (or lack there of) to the party. To think otherwise is sheer metagame greed on the part of the other players.


Dr Grecko wrote:

I have some new questions.

I'll preface it that it relates to the WBL disparity arguments that the charging crafter creates.

Would you, as a player, be offended if the crafter took the feats with the sole intention of creating items just for himself? The WBL will also be skewed towards the crafters favor.

If you are offended, would you then demand that the crafter start creating items for the rest of the party at cost?

Isn't demanding a player play his character the way you want him to play more offensive that a player charging for providing a service to the rest of the players?

I wouldn't be offended. I would find it odd.

It would be akin to the group fighter letting an orc run by him to attack me while he said "yanno.. I -could- take that AOO on that orc.. probably kill it, and he won't go hit anyone.. but.. nah.. i'll pass. he'll hit whoeever he hits".
Now obviously there are other reasons not to take an AOO. I'm just saying- the general assumption is that folks are going to contribute as they are able to the things they are able to do.

When the party is injured, the person in the group best able to heal that injury usually heals them.
In our current group- its usually either me or the cleric. Though the wizard's familiar sometimes steps in with a wand, or the party rogue, depending on the circumstances involved.
I've never yet had the cleric say "Dude, you are down to 5 hp out of 90. good luck".
So far he's said "who is hurt?" and then either casts a spell, uses a wand, or channels- depending on which is more efficient for the damage taken. (or I use my hex, or my familiar uses a LoH or whatever).

Would I twist the crafter's arm if the group could make time for him to craft the barbarian a better axe and he just crossed his arms and told the group to f'off? Probably not. But it would be weird in the extreme. Quite frankly I have *never* *ever* not once had that happen.
Maybe my groups are the D&D aberration. I dunno. I've just never had someone be completely unwilling to help the group to progress.

"I can make you better so I deserve to charge you for it"
vs
"I can make the group better. I don't need to charge any of you for it. Making you better, makes me better, and lets us roll critters for loot faster more efficiently and with fewer resources spent".

I mean, when you boil it down it really, truly comes down to that.

I'm in the 2nd group. Alot of you are in the first group. I'm fine with that- I just couldn't roll that way.
As soon as someone is putting their own interests above the interests of the group, you have someone you can't trust. IC. If he'll do that to you, what else will he do? If he's that terribly greedy that he'll charge the guy who saves his ass on a daily basis a fee to upgrade his gear, what else might he do? Rob me on his watch? Slit our throats and make off with the party's gear? Take the McGuffin and sell it to the highest bidder?

IC its not about the 100 gold fee. Its about trust, and having issues with the guy beside you who thinks he's worth more than he's worth. Its about a guy who is so greedy that he's going to charge the group money for things he should be doing for free. Its about wondering if you can really trust this guy or not- since if he's that incredibly greedy, what other lows will he stoop to?

Sure, metagaming the DM has rules against PVP. We also know how combat works and that he's not likely to actually be able to slit throats and rob us blind.
but IC? There is no "here is your metagaming handbook". My IC character would have a serious problem with such a greedy person in the group. Because he couldn't trust them for anything after that.

And I don't think the rest of the group would either. It would become metagaming just to put up with it.

I don't like it IC. I don't like it OOC. I wouldn't put up with it, either way.

I mean, the guy who took 2 crafting feats sits down and makes himself a nice new toy. He has no money left. The fighter says "hey, would you mind upgrading my sword? I have the money, and I'll make sure nothing attacks you while you do it". The rest of the group chimes in, that they don't mind waiting, or taking over the crafter's chores while he does it. The crafter says "Sorry Fighter. I don't craft for other people. You'll have to buy a new one in town or hope we find one."
I've just never, ever, not one single time seen that happen. its so weird I can't actually imagine it happening at a real table unless someone was just intentionally being a jerk. And I can imagine that the next time Crafter boy needed something from the group.. he just might find himself on the receiving end of that "no".

-S


Ravingdork wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I think its a very valid analogy actually, if a somewhat violent one.

Lets make something nicer then:

Your character is down to 1 hp. The cleric has a heal spell.
The cleric tells you there are exactly three options: Stand there and heal naturally. Pay him 100 gold for a heal spell. or go into town and *hire* a cleric to cast it for FMV.

Now assuming those are your actual options: Is he stealing from you?
Do you *really* *really* have those other two options?
Not really. He's stealing from you.

If you are out in the desert dying of thirst and the guy beside you offers you half of his canteen for all of your earthly wealth- he is stealing from you. Because you have no reasonable choice.

"pay my 100g fee or go pay his 2000g fee" when its something /you should be doing anyway for free/ is theft because telling me my option is to pay 2000 instead of 100 isn't really an option. Its a false choice.

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"
No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

And I wouldn't tolerate it.

-S

Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. The crafter isn't holding a gun to your head like your proposed psycho cleric is.

Fighters and other characters manage to go about their adventuring lives perfectly fine without the crafter. Just because the spellcaster picks up a crafting feat doesn't change that, nor does it suddenly change his obligations (or lack there of) to the party. To think otherwise is sheer metagame greed on the part of the other players.

Of course he's holding a gun to the players.

100 vs 2000. You think that isn't a gun? Of course it is. its the identical thing as the cleric telling you to pay him 100 or go to town and pay the NPC fee to get healed up.

A choice that isn't a meaningful choice isn't really a choice. Its only a choice because you side with the guy wanting his 100 more of the group share, than he deserves.

There is nothing about a crafting feat that allows the PC to charge more than his or her fair share of the treasure. You chose to take it instead of Maximize (or whatever). You couldn't have charged the group to Maximize your fireball, you can't charge the group to use craft wondrous item.

You think its Ok because you have the *power* to bend them over a barrel and force your fee on them because the only other choice is to pay someone else *twenty times* as much for the service. That gives you the ability- not the right. Its *still* wrong. Its *still* theft.

Unless the party is forcing the PC to select the feat and forcing them to slave away using it on their behalf, there's just no cause to be stealing their coin to use the feats. Its just not there.
And I'd advocate that if your group is forcing feats on you and such, that you need to find a new set of folks.

You say "100 is cheap, he'd have to pay 2000 otherwise."
Which is exactly the point. you are only getting away with your 100 bucks because he has no other reasonable alternative. Him having no other choice doesn't mean you aren't robbing him blind.

The greed is on the part of the crafter who thinks that taking a feat allows him to unevenly distribute the party wealth in his own direction.
He's the greedy guy. The party is just asking him to do what he'd have been doing anyway: using his feats and abilities to further the aims of the group.

When he maximizes that fireball and nukes a group, its free.
When he crafts a longsword, it costs cash? Wtf?
No. Leave the greed at home.

-S


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Coming up on the thousandth post pretty soon! Has anyone made plans for the 1000 postiversary yet?

I dunno, I might post against myself as devil's advocate, just for S & giggles. :P

-S

Liberty's Edge

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


About the condescending tone, take a mirror.

You can memorize spells in the field, you can enchant in the field, what working in the field isn't is "This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)." so you use the rules for working in a distracting environment: half speed.

yeah, i know i didn't have the nicest response, but did you deserve it? if you're going to be honest, did you really deserve friendly?

No doubt, I can be your mirror, but look your past posts, not only to me, they show the same kind of tone.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:


Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. The crafter isn't holding a gun to your head like your proposed psycho cleric is.

Fighters and other characters manage to go about their adventuring lives perfectly fine without the crafter. Just because the spellcaster picks up a crafting feat doesn't change that, nor does it suddenly change his obligations (or lack there of) to the party. To think otherwise is sheer metagame greed on the part of the other players.

How is expecting a PC to use his abilities (including feats) for the benefit of other PCs (and indeed of the party as a whole) with no immediate return "sheer metagame greed" ?

Is it okay then that my fighter refuses to take an AoO at an opponent trying to reach the wizard unless he has received his proper wages as the wizard's part-time bodyguard ?

And if the wizard's player starts complaining, for example after his PC being dropped in the negatives, can I tell him that to think my PC would protect his wizard for free is "sheer metagame greed" on his part ?

Or maybe that is what I should tell him if my fighter takes the AoO but just does not use one of his feats (say Power Attack) unless paid for it ?

A PC party is based on solidarity and fair treatment for all, which ensures a high level of trust in PCs' life-threatening situations.

It means using your abilities for the benefits of yourself AND the rest of the party as much as you can with no further reward than the knowledge that they will do the same for you.

After all, rather than a crafting feat, the wizard could have taken a Metamagic feat to make his spells more powerful. Would you accept that he refuses to use it unless he is paid for it by the rest of the party ?


magikot wrote:
@OP: We have a crafting sorcerer in our current group. He charges half, but he has the Eldritch Smith trait (houseruled because he isnt a dwarf) so all the weapons, armor, and other metal objects he makes for us cost him 5% less to craft. The +2 scimitar he just made me cost him 3,800 and I paid him 4,000 for it. I get it at book cost and he still made a profit. Talk to your DM and see if you can take this trait and make most of your companion's items at cost to make them happy, but still keep your profit margin.

I made a post similar to this somewhere within the 20 pages. The Hedge Magician trait also allows for a 5% discount making it possible to sell on the open market for profit.

I also then posed a question asking would it be wrong for someone with this trait to ask the party to pay half cost, which will result in profit for the crafter?

I didn't get a big response.. Think it got lost as one of those bottom of the previous page posts that kind of get lost in the oblivion.

So I'll put the question out there again to see what people think. Is it wrong for the hedge magician or eldritch smith to charge half retail when he can craft at 5% under half?


I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.


beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

When you say you don't tell them.. Do you keep it from the players OOC as well, or is it just in game that you keep it from the characters?


beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I suspect that, since you are keeping it your deep dark secret, that you don't expect such reaction to be pleasant..

Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile, you are takin a lil off the top without their knowledge. I don't envy you when they find out.

-S


Selgard wrote:


I think its a very valid analogy actually, if a somewhat violent one.

Lets make something nicer then:

Your character is down to 1 hp. The cleric has a heal spell.
The cleric tells you there are exactly three options: Stand there and heal naturally. Pay him 100 gold for a heal spell. or go into town and *hire* a cleric to cast it for FMV.

Now assuming those are your actual options: Is he stealing from you?
Do you *really* *really* have those other two options?
Not really. He's stealing from you.

If you are out in the desert dying of thirst and the guy beside you offers you half of his canteen for all of your earthly wealth- he is stealing from you. Because you have no reasonable choice.

"pay my 100g fee or go pay his 2000g fee" when its something /you should be doing anyway for free/ is theft because telling me my option is to pay 2000 instead of 100 isn't really an option. Its a false choice.

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"
No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

And I wouldn't tolerate it.

-S

In that situation, I wouldn't take any of the Clerics silly options.

I would have the Bard heal me, or the Sorcerer with a UMD wand of CLW, or I would drink a potion, or UMD my own wand of CLW, or whatever my planned contingency for healing without a Cleric happened to be. Lots of groups function just fine without a healbot, just as lots of groups function just fine without a crafter.

Assuming of course that the Cleric made his intentions for charging for healing known, just as the crafter also made his intentions for charging for crafting known. If not, then we really aren't talking about the same thing at all and your analogy has no relevance.


Except they won't. No one I'd game with anyway.
They would all stand there and look at you like you were daft. You want to charge for your contributions to the group? *Expect the group to do like wise*.

You will be going back to town to heal, just like the guy who wants a new sword will have to go back to town and pay to have it done. All because instead of being a group member you decided to play merchants and pocket thieves.

I mean I get where you are coming from. I do. You took a feat, you deserve to profit off of it.
I just disagree on where the profit comes from.

You profit by the group rolling mobs. Not by robbing from your group.

*everyone* profits by their feats. *no one* does it at the expense of their party members.

If you start charging for your contributions, so will they. To expect otherwise is just sillyness. You better be crafting for yourself alot because you are going to need that double wbl to pay the group to use their class abilities. Just like you are trying to charge them to do yours.

Lots of groups function without a healbot. It requires team work, planning, and alot of working together.

Lots of groups don't function without cooperating with each other. When you stop cooperating with the group, don't expect to get their cooperation.

-S


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"

No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

You seem to have a very odd interpretation as to what exactly constitutes "theft". Someone who willingly says yes and purchases the item knowing it is 10% above cost is NOT considered theft.

If anything fits what you are describing, I think the term you are looking for is "extortion".


Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I suspect that, since you are keeping it your deep dark secret, that you don't expect such reaction to be pleasant..

Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile, you are takin a lil off the top without their knowledge. I don't envy you when they find out.

-S

He's not stealing anything. He's giving them FREE stuff.

In this case, the party is getting twice as much stuff for the same gold. Doesn't stealing from someone necessitate they end up with LESS stuff?

It's nothing like the the Rogue stealing a scepter off the top of the treasure pile. It's more like the Rogue using his feats and skills that he invested in to pickpocket a sceptre off some nobles while the rest of the party was off doing whatever it is they do while they're not adventuring. Except the crafter isn't stealing what he crafts from anybody, and he certainly isn't stealing it from the party.

If the crafter wants to keep a little of that FREE STUFF he's making for the party, that's stealing. If the crafter doesn't want to bother with the headache of giving FREE STUFF to the party, well, that's stealing, too.

What's more, the rest of the party is now over WBL due to all the FREE STUFF they've been getting, but the crafter isn't because he counts crafted items at cost.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"

No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

You seem to have a very odd interpretation as to what exactly constitutes "theft". Someone who willingly says yes and purchases the item knowing it is 10% above cost is NOT considered theft.

If anything fits what you are describing, I think the term you are looking for is "extortion".

Extortion is a subset of theft. Either way- pick the word you like- its still wrong and should be avoided. If thats really the hair you want to split, I'm fine with that. It still means I'm right. :)

-S


Dr Grecko wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.
When you say you don't tell them.. Do you keep it from the players OOC as well, or is it just in game that you keep it from the characters?

Both. How do their characters even know what a "Hedge Magician" is? All "hedge magician" means is you've got some spare regs left over after you craft something.

I do actually think I've mentioned it to a couple of other players though. They just shrugged.

Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I'm not "stealing" anything. They paid me a sum for an item and I'm giving them the item they paid for, at the price they agreed to pay for, which is as good a price as they could get from anyone else. That's not "stealing" in any conceivable sense of the word.

Quote:
Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile

It is in no way whatsoever remotely like stealing a gold sceptre from the top of a loot pile. If they don't want to pay me to craft their boots of speed, they can pay someone else to craft their boots of speed, and they'll be paying the same number. "Traits" are not an in-game concept, they are an out-of-game concept. If someone in your game were to look at you and say "But you didn't tell me you were a hedge magician!" then they're a terrible role player, and I wouldn't game with them. If they continued to get their panties in a wad over it, I'd dump the trait and get a +1 Will Save instead.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh hey, here's a question -

When you have a Bard in your party, and the Bard does a performance in a tavern, and makes ten gold off the patrons of the tavern, do you descend on the Bard like vultures demanding your cut?


Selgard wrote:

Except they won't. No one I'd game with anyway.

They would all stand there and look at you like you were daft. You want to charge for your contributions to the group? *Expect the group to do like wise*.

You will be going back to town to heal, just like the guy who wants a new sword will have to go back to town and pay to have it done. All because instead of being a group member you decided to play merchants and pocket thieves.

I mean I get where you are coming from. I do. You took a feat, you deserve to profit off of it.
I just disagree on where the profit comes from.

You profit by the group rolling mobs. Not by robbing from your group.

*everyone* profits by their feats. *no one* does it at the expense of their party members.

If you start charging for your contributions, so will they. To expect otherwise is just sillyness. You better be crafting for yourself alot because you are going to need that double wbl to pay the group to use their class abilities. Just like you are trying to charge them to do yours.

Lots of groups function without a healbot. It requires team work, planning, and alot of working together.

Lots of groups don't function without cooperating with each other. When you stop cooperating with the group, don't expect to get their cooperation.

-S

If they won't heal me, then I will heal myself, in the field, without going back to town. Of course they shouldn't expect any buffs from me without a fee either.

How 'bout this? Since the crafter has to cast spells for the party without charging, and they him. And the crafter has to craft for the party without charging, then they have to craft for him.

Craft is a skill that can be used untrained, and if they want, they can spend feats and skill points to improve their skill like he did.


Selgard wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"

No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

You seem to have a very odd interpretation as to what exactly constitutes "theft". Someone who willingly says yes and purchases the item knowing it is 10% above cost is NOT considered theft.

If anything fits what you are describing, I think the term you are looking for is "extortion".

Extortion is a subset of theft. Either way- pick the word you like- its still wrong and should be avoided. If thats really the hair you want to split, I'm fine with that. It still means I'm right. :)

-S

:)

I wasn't saying you're right.. Just mentioning the more accurate term for what you are describing.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the hedge magician charging cost, when he can create at 5% below cost?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I suspect that, since you are keeping it your deep dark secret, that you don't expect such reaction to be pleasant..

Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile, you are takin a lil off the top without their knowledge. I don't envy you when they find out.

-S

He's not stealing anything. He's giving them FREE stuff.

In this case, the party is getting twice as much stuff for the same gold. Doesn't stealing from someone necessitate they end up with LESS stuff?

It's nothing like the the Rogue stealing a scepter off the top of the treasure pile. It's more like the Rogue using his feats and skills that he invested in to pickpocket a sceptre off some nobles while the rest of the party was off doing whatever it is they do while they're not adventuring. Except the crafter isn't stealing what he crafts from anybody, and he certainly isn't stealing it from the party.

If the crafter wants to keep a little of that FREE STUFF he's making for the party, that's stealing. If the crafter doesn't want to bother with the headache of giving FREE STUFF to the party, well, that's stealing, too.

What's more, the rest of the party is now over WBL due to all the FREE STUFF they've been getting, but the crafter isn't because he counts crafted items at cost.

Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.
Its like buying a 200k house for 100k. When property taxes roll around they charge you for the 200k house not the 100k you paid.

The Barbarian, regardless of whether he uses you or the Guild in town gets the *exact same thing* for his 4k WBL. He might get it a little sooner from you, he gets exactly what he wants (instead of having to wait and hope the guild has it) but his WBL is the same. Thats SKR's ruling. (Now we can disagree with -that- but, thats really another threaad. Not entirely sure i want to get on some SKR bashing myself, dude's caught enough grief lately imo, but it'd still be another thread).

Barbarian isn't over WBL. Only the crafter is- assuming he's making his own items too. (which he should be).

And even assuming he does get over WBL somehow though the DM can (and should) simply moderate that with wealth distribution. It *still* doesn't let one player try to charge the other players for their contributions.

By RAW the crafter gets double WBL for thigns he crafts but anyone else But him gets charged full WBL. Its a perk for the crafter to get that WBL boost for what he crafts. Part of what makes the feats worth taking for him. That perk isn't given to the rest of the party. They only get half WBL for what they themselves craft.

Everyone gives their stuff free to the party. The clerics casting, the bard's UMD, the fighter's fighting, whatever and whatnot. Thats why you are in a group. So one guy isn't having to sit there and pay out the nose for experts and NPC wizards and clerics to come along and nickle and dime. Otherwise you could just play D&D alone and forgo the group. (which you can do actually).

You join the group. Everyone participates using their abilities to help the group. The crafter can no more charge the group for their abilities than the cleric does for his, or *any other member* for theirs. The closest you get to "charging" anyone are expensive material components and even then no one is getting a profit. Its just a cost the game entails to balance some spells. its not "that spell cost a vial of holy water. i'll need one of those and 5gp please". Its "hey do you have a vial of holy water? that spell requires one to cast". or diamond dust, or whatever.
Sometimes the guy wanting the spell will pay it, sometimes the group might (just depends on whats being done) or whatever.

But making a profit off the group? Its just not done. There is no good solid reason for it, and every reason on earth against it. You are *already getting paid* for your abilities. Its called LOOT. You don't get to double dip (aka steal from the party) by claiming crafting is somehow the bomb. If you can, then its ok for the rogue to skim the treasure pile and the cleric to start charging for his spells and.. well.. for *everyone* to start doing it too.

If you are absolutely dead set on thinking that taking a crafting feat lets you rob the other players then.. don't take a crafting feat. I'd rather pay the vendor full price than deal with the headache of a self centered player thinking he gets to rip off the party due to his feat selections.

say YES to being part of the group.
Say NO to charging the group for doing what you are getting paid to do already.

-S


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

He can get away with it because he knows its a false choice. "ha ha I get your 100 gold because the other option is so outrageous that I can rip you off and you have to accept it and since you said yes it isn't theft!"

No. Its still theft. You are stealing from your group. And it ought not be tolerated.

You seem to have a very odd interpretation as to what exactly constitutes "theft". Someone who willingly says yes and purchases the item knowing it is 10% above cost is NOT considered theft.

If anything fits what you are describing, I think the term you are looking for is "extortion".

Extortion is a subset of theft. Either way- pick the word you like- its still wrong and should be avoided. If thats really the hair you want to split, I'm fine with that. It still means I'm right. :)

-S

:)

I wasn't saying you're right.. Just mentioning the more accurate term for what you are describing.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the hedge magician charging cost, when he can create at 5% below cost?

Thats a weird one, to be honest. Unlike the previous examples, the guy actually can go out and squeeze 5% from the "in game" vendors and such.

I still can't see him trying to charge the group though. Making the group more powerful in general should still be more important to the character than taking 5% more of their gold for himself.
As character IC Id still have a problem with a character profiting off using his abilities for the group.

If Cindy Crafter decided to take her own personal off time and make items to sell, that'd really be her business. No different than the gruop taking off time to hang out at the tavern or screw around generally.
But the group ought not to let her take group time for it. Thats her personal stuff, making money on the side. If they offered to set aside group time for her to craft stuff for the group, there isn't really a good reasonf or her to say no. It'd just be at 55% off normal price instead of 50%.

Taking an extra (feat? trait? i forget) still doesn't let a party member charge the group for doing what they can for the group. It still doesn't adjust their WBL to double since its charged full, and all that.

sit 1) hey guys I'll make items at cost.
sit 2) hey guys I know i used to make items at cost but i can do it 5% cheaper now so I'm keeping that, and .. well.. thanks for the 5%.

That'd be like the wizard saying his fireballs are free but to maximize them he's charging extra. Or maximized are free but the party ows him cash to maximize /and/ empower it.

In short: taking feats and selecting class abilities doesn't let you profit off the party. Your profit comes from rolling critters, not rolling the group.

-S


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:

Thats a weird one, to be honest. Unlike the previous examples, the guy actually can go out and squeeze 5% from the "in game" vendors and such.

I still can't see him trying to charge the group though. Making the group more powerful in general should still be more important to the character than taking 5% more of their gold for himself.
As character IC Id still have a problem with a character profiting off using his abilities for the group.
...

The way I look at it in this scenario, is that the players are now stealing from the crafter. If the crafter could make more money off of the open market, but the players are demanding to pay less money than he could get elsewhere, then it's a reverse example of your extortion example.

Are not the other players profiting off of using the crafters ability? Is it wrong in a world that is capitalistic with markets that buy low and sell high such as the pathfinder world, for a wizard of abadar to ask for minor compensation for his efforts.

I think this is where we are seeing the hangup. I'm viewing the pathfinder universe through a capitalists eyes, while you are viewing it through a communists eyes. (no offense intended). It is perfectly reasonable considering the OP's God choice, to operate the way he does.

You yourself admitted that your groups WBL is already skewed because of how you play the game. Is it really that bad to charge considering the already skewed nature of your games?


Quote:

Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.

Which is why WBL must be a guideline, not a hard/fast rule.

If WBL is absolute, then Hedge Magician is a pointless trait, because you don't get to keep the money. It gets siphoned off into "WBL Land."

Never in my life have I encountered a GM who tracked someone's WBL and stole from the PCs if they discovered the PC was 5% over. If that's how your games are, I feel sorry for you and the people you play with.


Selgard wrote:


Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price....

I agree with SKR's ruling on this but I see a problem in its implementation.

Example: Party splits treasure evenly between them. Fighter then asks Wizard to craft things at cost (1/2 of price). Fighter just went over his WBL. In order to balance this the DM has to either drop the total GP amount to the group (they are doing even splits) or hand specific items out to balance the WBL again.

Alternately, the Wizard charges anything over cost the wizard goes over WBL and the same problem exists.

This is why my group has agreed that crafting for others is at full price (the remainder over cost is donated to some cause such as rebuilding a town, founding a school or something else that does not affect party wealth). - Gauss


I think he can legitimately charge the rest of the party extra for magic items. When he does he's not being a jerk, he's being a self defeating idiot.

The old saying:

"No man is an island, so ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you."

Really fits roleplaying very well.

When you craft the tank better armour, you are not just making it more likely that the fighter survives, by having a better tank in front of you then you increase the likelihood that YOU survive.

When you craft a Cloak of Resistance for the healer, you are not just making it more likely that he will survive, by having a more robust healer in the party you are making it more likely that he will be able to heal you when you need it.

Magic items don't just improve the owning characters chance of survival, they improve everybodies chance of survival.

When you make someone else a magic item, you are increasing your chances of survival......with someone elses money! Bargain......

The only hard and fast rule that I would expect to see is that the crafter gets to make the items he wants for himself first!


beej67 wrote:
Quote:

Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.

Which is why WBL must be a guideline, not a hard/fast rule.

If WBL is absolute, then Hedge Magician is a pointless trait, because you don't get to keep the money. It gets siphoned off into "WBL Land."

Never in my life have I encountered a GM who tracked someone's WBL and stole from the PCs if they discovered the PC was 5% over. If that's how your games are, I feel sorry for you and the people you play with.

Hedge Magician isnt a pointless trait if following WBL. Just like crafting items WBL increases your maximum effective WBL. However, rather than thinking of it as 'double WBL' you can think of it as: what has the crafter PAID to make his own items? In this particular case he only pays 40% (of price) and thus only 40% of a given items price counts against his WBL.

Example: crafter is making a +1 weapon. The magic component is priced at 2000gp, normal crafting cost is 1000gp, hedge magician cost is 950gp. A person buying the sword would have its full value counted against WBL. A Crafter without hedge magician would have 1000gp counted. An a crafter with hedge magician would only have 950 counted.

As for encountering a GM: now you have...me. I keep track of the player's equipment and request an inventory about every 2-3 levels. IF they are significantly over I tone down treasure for a bit. If they are significantly under I increase treasure for a bit. I am not the only GM that does this.

- Gauss

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
dragonfire8974 wrote:

to answer you question diego, I think you're overblowing the distraction clause. i think that's in there to mean where there is battle or some sort of interference, not the potential for interference because that can happen anywhere, even in a nice quiet lab someone can bust in and wreck up the place. not likely, but then we have to go with how likely something distracting is going to happen and how distracting it is.

i stay away from that, so thus a nicer interpretation of the ruling for distractions as interference

EDIT: or it could include something that would inhibit concentration

So your position is that in practice it will never happen.

Let's look the possible situations and them explain to me why you think they are no distracting but instead respect this requirement: "his work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)".
As a start the only "portable laboratory" is the alchemist lab, good only to make potions.

Premise set 1:
- Low level party out in the field:
- sleep arrangement one or more tents
- you are exploring the wilderness in Kingmaker, so no real time pressure
- there are wandering mosnsters

You want to make a scroll.
- you need the appropriate implements: what they are ink, pens, paper and a level surface were you can write, like a table
- you are almost certainly missing the table, you are moving on foot or horseback so it is improbable you are binging with you a folding table. You can sit on a stone with a book or a board on your knees to use it as a writing surface. You can work but it is far from a optimal situation. Your inks instead of being on the same surface are on a nearby stone or on the ground
- it is a sunny day? the sun beats on your inks, drying them to fast
- it is raining, even a drizzle? you can't work
- fog? your paper start to get wet
- snow? you can work
- wind? you run the risk of the ink running around on the page so you have to take extra caution
- below freezing point? some of your inks will freeze They are medieval-renaissance stuff, no good for working at sub freeze temperatures
- "but I can work in the tent". Your group is bringing a pavilion tent with them? Normal tents are very cramped. If you have a pavilion tent it will keep out the rain, wind and sun but only some of the humidity and the temperature will not be much above the external temperature.
- you are in danger from wandering monster. Sure, there is a guy taking guard duty but hopefully your crafter isn't totally distracted by doing his work. If your crafter is so focused on his work that he will not keep an eye out for possible danger you can look how it ended fro Archimedes of Syracuse, "Do not disturb my circles" will not work better on a troll than on a Roman soldier. So he is working with weapons at hand and ready to react to strange sounds, decidedly distracting in my book
- all the above, to me, speak of a distracting and non controlled environment

Potion making?
- Requirements: "The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew"
- I have studied chemistry for a few years and done my share of laboratory work. You can work with your stuff on he pavements, but it is hardly optimal.
- you need to have a fire running all the time, great trouble beacon
- as you have a fire running you can't work in a tent, so you either work outdoor or you bring along the equivalent of a yurt
- rain, now, dust, wind, sun. all can ruin your potion components
- what will do to your work the pollen from the nearby tree? the leaf that has fallen into your boiling water? No idea, better restart this part of the process
- you are still working fully armed and ready to react to signals of trouble

Armor and weapons?
- heat source and leather working, metalworking or wood working implements
- same problems than above with the fire, plus ever so often you will have to hammer the metal, heat it, boil wax to treat the leather, put a slate to the wood and so on. You can do pretty complex stuff on the field but it is very different from working at your workbench a home

Wondrous items?
- cloth is easy if embroidery suffice, knitting can cover some other item but all other items have the same problems depicted above

Rings?
- again, mostly metalworking with some gem cutting. Same problem depicted above

Staffs, wands?
- woodworking. Same problem depicted above

Rods?
- same problems as making weapons

Note that you will always have the problem of working in a unsafe environment where monsters can attack the next minute.
Rope trick can ameliorate some problem but it will worsen some other problem. I will not lit a fire in a enclosed space. The trick volume is very strange as "The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size)." mean that is somewhat adapt to the creatures in it. My pinion is that it has berth space for exactly the number and shape of creatures in it plus a bit of extra space to move around but nothing more.

Premise set 2.
- mid level party
- all other premises same as set 1

Now our group can use Secure shelter. The risk is way lessened and the crafter can have a desk.

Scrolls
- yes, you can make them at full efficiency

Potions
- if you have a Secure shelter for you only yes, but that kind of work smell, is often toxic and don't work well with other people sleeping while you work, so a maybe

Other stuff
- you have the problem of running a sufficiently hot fire, occasional hammering and often make to do equipment (metalworking tools require an anvil).
As a general rule I would call it a distracting and suboptimal situation, barring very specific form of crafting.

The danger part 8barring some extreme situation9 s sufficiently mitigated to be a non factor.

Premise set 3
- high level party
- all other premises same as set 1

- Mage's Magnificent Mansion, enuff said.
They have the space, the privacy, the safety and the means to bring along all that is needed.
They can craft at their heart content.

If the group hasn't access to the listed spells or some equivalent item or spell (an Instant Fortress as an example) they work like a lower level party.

- * - * -

Side note. Cooperative Crafting is less good than how it will appear at a first glance:

PRD wrote:

Cooperative Crafting

Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.
Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.
Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.

The bolded statement mean that to help someone you either need the relevant crafting feat or at last 1 skill rank in the relevant craft (spellcraft don't suffice, it s not a craft).

So to help making weapons and armors you need ranks in:
- Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows)
- Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)
- Craft (armor)

To make wondrous items you need the right craft for the items and s on.
you need to take only 1 rank, so nothing major, but they pile up for class with a low to middle number of skill ranks.


Selgard wrote:


Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.
Its like buying a 200k house for 100k. When property taxes roll around they charge you for the 200k house not the 100k you paid.

I see what you're getting at here. In your analogy, the government can tax each PC exactly what they owe. How does a GM do that? Every PC that had the crafter craft for them will be over WBL, but the crafter will not. How does the GM tax the other PCs? Can he say,

"OK, you're all over WBL except the crafter, so this loot, only the crafter gets a cut and you'll all be even again."

If so, then I entirely agree that the crafter doesn't need to charge since the GM can charge for him. If the GM can tax individual PCs, the end result is exactly the same. And if the players prefer to getting "taxed" by the GM to getting "charged" by the crafter, it makes no difference to the game.

Quote:

The Barbarian, regardless of whether he uses you or the Guild in town gets the *exact same thing* for his 4k WBL. He might get it a little sooner from you, he gets exactly what he wants (instead of having to wait and hope the guild has it) but his WBL is the same. Thats SKR's ruling. (Now we can disagree with -that- but, thats really another threaad. Not entirely sure i want to get on some SKR bashing myself, dude's caught enough grief lately imo, but it'd still be another thread).

Barbarian isn't over WBL. Only the crafter is- assuming he's making his own items too. (which he should be).

I don't know where your getting this from.

Let's say that the Barbarian was at exactly WBL with 20,000gp worth of gp and gear. He pays the crafter 2,000gp for a 4,000gp axe. The Barb is down 2,00gp of coin, but up 4,000gp in gear.
Now he has 22,000gp worth of gp and gear, and is over WBL. In fact, the only way the Barb wouldn't go over is if he was already under WBL to the tune of exactly wehat he paid to craft.

On the otherhand, if the crafter doesn't charge for crafting, how is he going over WBL? All his crafted items count at cost, so where is the extra wealth coming from?

Quote:
And even assuming he does get over WBL somehow though the DM can (and should) simply moderate that with wealth distribution. It *still* doesn't let one player try to charge the other players for their contributions.

Unless the DM can specify PC shares, or each PC is exactly the same amount over WBL, this is very hard to do. With crafting, it's almost impossible.

The two easiest ways for a GM to put a party over WBL back in line with WBL is to either drop less loot, or drop loot they won't want and will end up selling for half.

Dropping less loot doesn't work if there's a disparity in PC wealth, since PCs will usually split loot evenly.

Dropping loot they don't want doesn't work with a crafter since they can sell for half and craft for half.

Quote:
By RAW the crafter gets double WBL for thigns he crafts but anyone else But him gets charged full WBL. Its a perk for the crafter to get that WBL boost for what he crafts. Part of what makes the feats worth taking for him. That perk isn't given to the rest of the party. They only get half WBL for what they themselves craft.

Exactly.

When a crafter crafts for himself, his effective wealth doesn't change. He had 2,00 gp, no he has a 2,000 gp cost item. When a crafter crafts for someone else, their effective wealth does change. They had 2,000gp, now they have a 4,000gp price item. Their wealth increased by 2,000gp. This puts them above WBL. The crafter can craft to his hearts content and never go over WBL.

If the GM can "tax" each PC individually somehow, he can correct this disparity. Otherwise the crafter has to charge.

If the crafter charges both the crafter, and the players who patronize him will be over WBL. If the crafter charges the appropriate amount, they will all be exactly the same amount over WBL, which is easily fixed by the GM.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

Thats a weird one, to be honest. Unlike the previous examples, the guy actually can go out and squeeze 5% from the "in game" vendors and such.

I still can't see him trying to charge the group though. Making the group more powerful in general should still be more important to the character than taking 5% more of their gold for himself.
As character IC Id still have a problem with a character profiting off using his abilities for the group.
...

The way I look at it in this scenario, is that the players are now stealing from the crafter. If the crafter could make more money off of the open market, but the players are demanding to pay less money than he could get elsewhere, then it's a reverse example of your extortion example.

Are not the other players profiting off of using the crafters ability? Is it wrong in a world that is capitalistic with markets that buy low and sell high such as the pathfinder world, for a wizard of abadar to ask for minor compensation for his efforts.

I think this is where we are seeing the hangup. I'm viewing the pathfinder universe through a capitalists eyes, while you are viewing it through a communists eyes. (no offense intended). It is perfectly reasonable considering the OP's God choice, to operate the way he does.

You yourself admitted that your groups WBL is already skewed because of how you play the game. Is it really that bad to charge considering the already skewed nature of your games?

No offense taken :)

Its like this:
The group sets aside 2 hours of group time for crafting. The crafter sits and crafts while the rest of the group tends to other group activities. (researching the bad guy, selling the loot they got from the dungeon, and whatever)
vs.
The crafter decides that when the group goes off to do their own thing (drinking, whoring, relaxing, whatever) that they decide to sit and do some crafting. They then sell it on the market for 5%.

Neither is wrong. Folks can use their free time literally however they want.

The problem comes when the group sets aside time for the crafter to craft and they decide to charge the group for it.
It isn't a 'well they can charge anyone else, wny not the party?" Because they are using the party's time for it. Just like any other group thing.

I personally don't see someone crafting and selling it for profit if the group needs stuff. I realize thats just my opinion. Maybe it'm just too group oriented. All I can really say is- so have been the groups I've been apart of.
We've *all* been of the mindset that a stronger group is a stronger gruop, and that it should come before any individual member. Its how we roll. Its not how you roll. And thats fine. Just understand that your group could probably get alot more done under my method than yours, because no one in my group is trying to swipe cash for the other players. Everyone is trying to work together.

Partnerships are communist. Everyone works together using their skills for the group, and then everyone profits from their work on the partnership. No one in the partnership gets to 1) work for the partnership 2) profit from the partnership equally and 3) charge the partnership extra for their work.

I admit that at any given second in our group the WBL might be slanted. But its not due to the players stealing from each other. Its due to one guy getting loot from This boss and the next mob dropping an item for the other guy, and so on. If someone is getting hosed loot wise, the DM needs to adjust what falls from the critters.
or the group can sit around and discuss it and pool resources to fix it themselves.
But the crafter just taking 10% off the top? All that does is shift their wealth to him- regardless of who is top or bottom of the WBL curve. And I'm not for that at all.
Your assumption is that in my group the crafter is way behind the curve and that they therefore need the extra money to catch up. In reality, whoever is "ahead of" the curve is due to the item drops that happen to fall. It could be the fighter is way ahead. it could be the crafter. I dunno what that last item cost in our current AP but I suspect the crafter is fairly well ahead of the curve now due to it. And it'll even out as we progress and other folks get neat toys too.
Later on it might be the cleric ahead.. or the rogue. Why don't they get their 5%? They don't. because for some reason its just the crafters.
I just don't agree. You work with the party you get the same loot the party gets, you move on. No one (crafter or otherwise) gets to pilfer off the top beacuse they think they are contributing more.

-S


beej67 wrote:
Quote:

Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.

Which is why WBL must be a guideline, not a hard/fast rule.

If WBL is absolute, then Hedge Magician is a pointless trait, because you don't get to keep the money. It gets siphoned off into "WBL Land."

Never in my life have I encountered a GM who tracked someone's WBL and stole from the PCs if they discovered the PC was 5% over. If that's how your games are, I feel sorry for you and the people you play with.

According to the new rule, crafters count there items at their crafted cost, which would be different for Hedge Wizards than for regular crafters.

So everything works out.


Selgard,

I would be interested to know just how your groups WBL sits per char. Do you think you could have your group calc it all up for each char?

If not, no big deal.. Just curious.


Gauss wrote:
Selgard wrote:


Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price....

I agree with SKR's ruling on this but I see a problem in its implementation.

Example: Party splits treasure evenly between them. Fighter then asks Wizard to craft things at cost (1/2 of price). Fighter just went over his WBL. In order to balance this the DM has to either drop the total GP amount to the group (they are doing even splits) or hand specific items out to balance the WBL again.

Alternately, the Wizard charges anything over cost the wizard goes over WBL and the same problem exists.

This is why my group has agreed that crafting for others is at full price (the remainder over cost is donated to some cause such as rebuilding a town, founding a school or something else that does not affect party wealth). - Gauss

SKR's ruling is, imo, impossible to enforce. There is really just no way to keep everyone on an even footing given random loot chances and trying to figure out 4 levels later which part of a given sword was crafted vs found and all that.

I mean take this scenario:

I buy a +1 sword at market. I have the wizard upgrade it to +2. I pay a guy later to make it keen. I have the crafter make it +3.
Is it possible to do the math and work it all out? Sure.
But *man* what a headache. You not only have to know what was crafted- but in what order. Just saying you got a +1 keen and the wizard made it +3 isn't going to cut the math. You basically need a sheet for every item once a crafter touches it. The same is true for any upgradeable item.
It also means instead of saying "scroll of fireball x2" yuo have
"scroll of fireball x2"
"scroll of crafted fireball x1"
"potion of fly x1"
"potion of crafted fly x2"
and so on. Possible? sure. Tedious? yep. Pain in the tail? yep. Big ole headache and lots and lots of extra paper work? yep.

I mean overall I agree with his ruling. It makes perfect sense. But enforcing it is hell with a pencil. It just practically forces folks to houserule *something* in some way or other.

At least, imo.

-S


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:


I buy a +1 sword at market. I have the wizard upgrade it to +2. I pay a guy later to make it keen. I have the crafter make it +3.
Is it possible to do the math and work it all out? Sure.
But *man* what a headache. You not only have to know what was crafted- but in what order. Just saying you got a +1 keen and the wizard made it +3 isn't going to cut the math. You basically need a sheet for every item once a crafter touches it. The same is true for any upgradeable item.

Actually, if you're not a crafter, you don't need to worry, 'cause the item counts at full price.

If you are a crafter, and for some reason you have your items upgraded for you instead of doing it yourself you might run into some problems, but why would you do that?

I can usually remember what scrolls I scribed as well, for one, they're usually at my caster level and they're also scrolls I'd have reason to cast. A lot of the scrolls I find are pretty odd spells that I wouldn't normally scribe. If I buy a scroll instead of scribing it, it's usually for a reason that I can remember. And, don't forget, once you use a scroll, it doesn't matter where you got it because it's gone.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:


Except by raw they aren't getting more stuff. by SKR's ruling, the *only thing* the *single only thing* they are getting is the ability to pick exactly what they want. THAT IS IT! Thats it! They *aren't* turning 2k into 4k. They are getting charged 4k to their WBL.

Only the crafter is getting access to double WBL through their feat. EVeryone else gets charged full price.
Its like buying a 200k house for 100k. When property taxes roll around they charge you for the 200k house not the 100k you paid.

I see what you're getting at here. In your analogy, the government can tax each PC exactly what they owe. How does a GM do that? Every PC that had the crafter craft for them will be over WBL, but the crafter will not. How does the GM tax the other PCs? Can he say,

"OK, you're all over WBL except the crafter, so this loot, only the crafter gets a cut and you'll all be even again."

If so, then I entirely agree that the crafter doesn't need to charge since the GM can charge for him. If the GM can tax individual PCs, the end result is exactly the same. And if the players prefer to getting "taxed" by the GM to getting "charged" by the crafter, it makes no difference to the game.

Quote:

The Barbarian, regardless of whether he uses you or the Guild in town gets the *exact same thing* for his 4k WBL. He might get it a little sooner from you, he gets exactly what he wants (instead of having to wait and hope the guild has it) but his WBL is the same. Thats SKR's ruling. (Now we can disagree with -that- but, thats really another threaad. Not entirely sure i want to get on some SKR bashing myself, dude's caught enough grief lately imo, but it'd still be another thread).

Barbarian isn't over WBL. Only the crafter is- assuming he's making his own items too. (which he should be).

I don't know where your getting this from.

Let's say that the Barbarian was at exactly WBL with 20,000gp worth of gp and gear. He pays the crafter 2,000gp for a 4,000gp axe. The Barb is...

We can all make corner cases that prove our points.

You say "if it's exactly at WBL this puts him over". Agreed. Until they level up, then he's under again and evens out again.
But if he's really already in the hole 4k then he's fine having the guy craft it for him. In the end, it all averages out that he's ok. If only because the DM should step in and not awared the barbarian as much barbarian loot for awhile to keep him from being over for very long.
The same is true if the barbarian is at EXACTLY the WBL and an upgrade for him drops. His fingers don't refuse to wrap around the handle of the axe because hes over WBL. He takes it, and the DM spreads the wealth around to the rest of the group for awhile.
In reality (imo anyway) WBL is just a way for dead PC's to come back from the dead anyway, and as a useful model for discussing relative power in PC's. In actual game play its very nearly impossible to enforce without being metagamy in the extreme. "I know its your turn to get the new toy but it'll put you 3k over your WBL so give it to that other guy who doesn't need it nearly as much but doesn't have as much cash". ouch.

The crafter will never catch up to his own WBL since his WBL is now effectively doubled (for some items). I'm not sure why taking the feat lets him take that out on the group though. All it really means is that he can craft nigh on whatever he wants to without worrying about the glass ceiling of WBL. I do disagree if you say that him taking a feat means he gets to take WBL from the rest of the group.
WBL doubling is a benefit to the crafter, not a handycap to the group. It in no way should allow him to say "hey guys I get double your WBL so you now owe me x% more loot". Nothing your character does allows you to exceed your share of the loot at the table.
I mean if the DM really wants to enforce SKR's ruling he basically has to start funneling the crafter more loot so they can match their appropriate WBL. the other PC's have to metagame that its fair- even when it really isn't. "guys I know he has twice your wealth in items.. but that was SKR's ruling.. sorry.".
Nah, in reality we just ignore it. but to be fair, we also ignore alot of weird rulings.. like vital strike/charge crap, the odd Power attack ruling that came out awhile back, and.. well.. quite afew other oddities.

His ruling just doesn't work out very well in a group. The math works and makes sense- but when it comes down to actual interparty relations, it fails hard core.
"Guys. I'm a wizard. I took craft wondrous item and craft rod and craft wand. Because of that, I can make my own stuff. This means my WBL is double all of yours. So you all need to funnel me twice as much loot as before, so i can keep up with you all."
Cleric: "so.. you want us to give you twice as much loot, to match your new WBl.. while making us x% weaker than before.. just cuz you took a couple of feats? Did that last orc hit you too hard on the head? here, lets see if a Heal can sort you out. I think your brain got scrambled."

In actual *game play* SKR's ruling just doesn't really work out.
You can craft your own things, and you have the ability to go double WBL, but I really wouldn't expect the party to be willing to diminish their share of the loot due to you taking a feat.

To follow RAW, the DM would have to step in and actually directly funnel the dude more cash than he does the rest of the group. Which would still be rather weird. (and peculiar in game. "what do you mean the King gave him twice what he gave us? thats the last time we let the Wizard do all the talking!"
or "dang man, thats the 15th rich relative you've had die and leave you their fortune.. How big and rich was your family anyway?"
it just gets.. metagamy after awhile. And all for taking a feat.

-S

Liberty's Edge

Dr Grecko wrote:

Selgard,

I would be interested to know just how your groups WBL sits per char. Do you think you could have your group calc it all up for each char?

If not, no big deal.. Just curious.

hmm I doubt it. Most of us just don't particularly care.

We're a 6 man group going through a 4 man 3.5 Ap. I'm fairly confident we're all behind WBL by a fair margin. And we just added in a 7th guy a session or two back so the WBL will get worse.

But 6-7 in a 4m group still wipes the floor with it- so no one is really chomping at the bit to make the DM's job even more difficult by trying to be up to full WBL.

I can try to eyeball mine from memory.
3000 rod of lesser extend
20000 rod of lesser quicken
14000 rod of lesser maximize
16000 headband +4
4000 belt +2
2500 eyeballs of the eagle
2500 boots of winterlands
4000 cloak of res +2
2000 ring of pro +1
2000 neck of armor +1
2500 ring of sustenance
2000 mithril buckler +1

74500

a 13th level character should have:
140,000 Gp.

I'm about half under, even if I did the math wrong or missed an item- i didn't miss an item costing 70k :)

-S

edited:
derp. Totally forgot about my fuzzy little spellbook familiar.

It'd be entirely too much work for me to sit and figure out how many spells I've fed to it. Until 2 sessions ago, it wasn't very many.
2 sessions ago we found a spellbook with all the CRB spells in it 1-6. The wizard got that, of course.
The DM also gave me access to 15 spells of each level 1-6, but from any source. I'm sure someone can do the math better than I can. Maybe they put me closer to my WBL :) if so, me and the wizard are the closest ones. :P

-S

double edit:
wtf? it changed my name? that wasn't very nice of it :(


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:


I buy a +1 sword at market. I have the wizard upgrade it to +2. I pay a guy later to make it keen. I have the crafter make it +3.
Is it possible to do the math and work it all out? Sure.
But *man* what a headache. You not only have to know what was crafted- but in what order. Just saying you got a +1 keen and the wizard made it +3 isn't going to cut the math. You basically need a sheet for every item once a crafter touches it. The same is true for any upgradeable item.

Actually, if you're not a crafter, you don't need to worry, 'cause the item counts at full price.

If you are a crafter, and for some reason you have your items upgraded for you instead of doing it yourself you might run into some problems, but why would you do that?

I can usually remember what scrolls I scribed as well, for one, they're usually at my caster level and they're also scrolls I'd have reason to cast. A lot of the scrolls I find are pretty odd spells that I wouldn't normally scribe. If I buy a scroll instead of scribing it, it's usually for a reason that I can remember. And, don't forget, once you use a scroll, it doesn't matter where you got it because it's gone.

I could never make myself craft potions or scrolls. Its just pissing gp down the drain, to me. Same with wands really. And staves before the PF change to them. Its like wadding up loot and throwing it at the bad guys. Just haven't been able to make myself do it. This was especially true in 3.5 where it cost xp, but i still don't normally mess with it. My witch only ever has scrolls if I bought them to feed to his familiar.

-S


Selgard wrote:
...

Sel if you aren't willing to play with the rules that's fine, to each his own and all that crap but that usually means you should exempt yourself from discussions about the topic where it is assumed that they are following those rules. It's like going onto a thread about Weapon Focus and saying it's the bestest feat ever because your GM gives you +5 to hit and +5 to damage for taking it sure in that case you're right but since you aren't using the same rules as everyone else your point isn't really valid.

And yes if the party were to insist on not going with the fee system then the DM either has to equalize the shares of the loot or if the party insists on stealing from the wizard AGAIN I'd probably just pull the wizard aside and tell him he now has an income from prior investing and that he gets X% extra money and that he just shouldn't bother talking with the party about it.


Selgard wrote:
Nothing your character does allows you to exceed your share of the loot at the table.

I keep seeing you use this as the basic crux of your argument. Tell me this: Does that rule apply to everyone at the table? EVERYONE?

Coz it it does, 'buying' from the crafter purely at cost is exceeding your own share of the loot, and there are no two ways about that. You CANNOT have it both way here.

Following the rules, PC are only allowed to sell for half price, and only allowed to buy for full price. The fact that the only reason for this is that they are PCs is irrelevant. those are the immutable rules of the universe.

Just as 'cosmic enlightenment' (or meta-gaming, or whatever you want to call it) allows the players to realise that they can only ever sell for half price (a ridiculous rule, no matter how neccessary, as we all agree) that same logic should make them realise that they can only ever buy for full price from others.

'Free' crafting is breaking the rules. it can't happen, this is why crafters should never make items for the party. It's pretty easy to follow SKR's ruling, don't allow crafters to make things for anyone else without charging full price. And stop assuming that the crafters sole purpose for adventuring with you is to make you all nice things, purely because he's a nice guy and cares nothing for his own time and happiness, only for the glory of the hivemind you call a party.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

*:
Though the GM will be given some allowances duirng character creation to ensure campaign stability (i.e. - disallowing a paladin in an evil party or a gunslinger in a low-tech world).


Dr Grecko wrote:


Anyway, what are your thoughts on the hedge magician charging cost, when he can create at 5% below cost?

so I don't have a problem with this because that's generally not corrected for in WBL calculations by the DM, so it is a further discout from the 50%. but when i took it, i gave items at 45%.


Ravingdork wrote:

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

** spoiler omitted **

i don't think anyone is saying that you can't play your character the way you want. and if your group is okay with you charging 10% over, that fine. it is double dipping into the loot, but as long as you are fine with that, have a great game!

i said before to someone who was a crafter who charged 15% to tithe to the church, i would be okay with that as it further's his character's concept and wasn't a grab to become more powerful than the other pcs.

Dr. Gecko talked about creating consumables with that extra 10%, In game i would be okay with that. but that crafter isn't entitled it just because he got the feat


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
...

Sel if you aren't willing to play with the rules that's fine, to each his own and all that crap but that usually means you should exempt yourself from discussions about the topic where it is assumed that they are following those rules. It's like going onto a thread about Weapon Focus and saying it's the bestest feat ever because your GM gives you +5 to hit and +5 to damage for taking it sure in that case you're right but since you aren't using the same rules as everyone else your point isn't really valid.

And yes if the party were to insist on not going with the fee system then the DM either has to equalize the shares of the loot or if the party insists on stealing from the wizard AGAIN I'd probably just pull the wizard aside and tell him he now has an income from prior investing and that he gets X% extra money and that he just shouldn't bother talking with the party about it.

we've talked about it, the implementation of the FAQ is wonky no matter how you do it, which is why I would talk to the GM as to how he wants it done, or if. I, as a GM, wouldn't implement it, but i tend to overwealth characters anyways. it doesn't make the fee system the best way to implement the rule because if you're given current WBL in gold then the crafter already has double wealth


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

** spoiler omitted **

i don't think anyone is saying that you can't play your character the way you want. and if your group is okay with you charging 10% over, that fine. it is double dipping into the loot, but as long as you are fine with that, have a great game!

i said before to someone who was a crafter who charged 15% to tithe to the church, i would be okay with that as it further's his character's concept and wasn't a grab to become more powerful than the other pcs.

Dr. Gecko talked about creating consumables with that extra 10%, In game i would be okay with that. but that crafter isn't entitled it just because he got the feat

Bah I still disagree the faq clearly states that like all other feats in the game crafting should increase personal power in this case it's meant to increase personal wealth. The issue is that the feat is essentially one which can vastly unbalance the rest of the party if you let them partake of it.

Edit: Missed the last post, yes if everything is pure gold that's true except so is everyone else so he drops the gold drops to half to level everyone else and indirectly hits the crafter down to their WBL too.

951 to 1,000 of 2,075 << first < prev | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar? All Messageboards