Holy Tactician - Battlefield Presence questions


Rules Questions


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I am looking to play a Holy Tactician Paladin (from ultimate combat). However, the Battlefield Presence ability isn't worded spectacularly well.

You grant allies a teamwork fight by using a standard action. The ability does not list a duration, but it says that you 'direct your allies in battle.' Because it's a standard action and because it says 'in battle' my DM is ruling that I have to activate it as a standard action at the start of every battle. He doesn't think a duration of 'forever' is reasonable. The only ability I know of that only works in combat is the various Style feats, which specifically state that you have to turn them on at the start of a fight. Those are swift actions, though. I don't know of any class abilities which only last until the end of battle; everything either has a listed duration or lasts until you rest.

The most similar ability is the cavalier's Tactician ability, which is also a standard action but has both limited uses per day and a duration of rounds. The fact that the paladin version doesn't have limited uses makes me think it might really be intended to last all day. Or, that they just completely forgot to put any limits on it.

On the other hand, if it really does last all day, why does it need a standard action to activate?

The ability doesn't function while you're flatfooted or unconscious. Does that mean the bonus is suppressed while flatfooted or unconscious, or that they lose the teamwork feat and I have to spend a standard action to reactivate it? If they lose the feat entirely when I'm flatfooted, then I always have to activate the ability at the start of the battle because I'm flatfooted until I go (unless I go first, in which case arguably I'm never flatfooted). Unless of course I do some crazy rogue multiclass in order to never be flat-footed.

The ability grants the feat to allies within 30', and only functions as long as they can see and hear me. Does that mean if they go farther away than 30', they lose the benefit? Because that would be pretty useless, as soon as a party member charges they'll probably be outside of range.

The errata for Ultimate Combat doesn't mention it at all at the moment.


I'm just going to go ahead and bump this because I was wondering the same thing, especially with regards to duration.


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I talked to the author of the archetype and he confirmed it has no duration. It's meant to be always up, like the aura it replaces.

Liberty's Edge

The way I read it the HT has to tell their companions what to do. So to keep it up all day you'd have to be constantly telling everyone how to pack up the camp in order to get the best teamwork benefits, how to best drink their grog, how to sneak down the hall without calling attention to the team, et cetera.

Practically that means that you likely wouldn't use it all the time. You could activate it before combat, but having it up at all times would be beyond odd.


I read it in the following manner:

1) To use the ability at all, battle must be engaged, or at the very least, imminent
2) The ability only lasts as long as the current combat.

Quote:

Battlefield Presence (Su)

At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

Not the only way to read the feat, but in my mind the most sensible. If the Holy Tactician can have it up all day long, and changing teamwork feats is only a swift action, why have it take a standard action to use in the first place?

Never mind the silliness of a paladin directing her allies in battle all day long while they complete mundane tasks…


Have there been any other rulings on this?

If it lasts all day, Holy Tactician is a pretty good archetype.

If you have to spend a standard action at the start of every battle, it's decent but not great.

If you are giving up your awesome aura for a round-limited ability like the Cavalier's, it pretty much sucks.

Silver Crusade

It's not an aura. It has a 30 ft. radius. So if there were two of you when the fight started and the rest of the party ran up later (or the archer was simply too far away) then they don't get the feat just because "you're supposed to always be giving the benefits out". The paladin is supposed to spend an action for it.

Sorry for bumping an old thread but I was wondering the same question so I'm throwing in my two cents as well and wondering if anyone else has anything to say about this... Like, why is it so much better than the Cavalier's Tactician ability? This archetype doesn't even lose stuff like: spells, lay on hands, mercy, divine grace. Even the Weal's Champion which I heard people say was bad (not sure why) becomes an amazing ability at level 11.


I'll bump this again just coz it doesn't look like anyone's reached a consensus.

Quote:

Battlefield Presence (Su)

At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

"This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed"

The way I read it, it's always on, but unless the paladin acts in the surprise round & wins initiative they're flat-footed & have to reactivate it.

That means it really doesn't work for something like Lookout unless you already have a way of acting in the surprise round (and can then grant the ability to your team).
It also means you DO have to spend an action activating it in most combats. Whether you think that's worth it is up to you.

As for having to be in combat, you don't have to be in combat to draw your weapon, or cast a spell, or speak (which is what "directing your allies" would fall under there), so I don't see why you'd have to wait till initiative is rolled (although again, flat-footed means you'd have to re-activate it).

There are some feats that would be super useful in non-combat scenarios as well, like Secret Language and Shake It Off, so this doesn't seem like it has to be only a combat ability.


Cheapy wrote:
I talked to the author of the archetype and he confirmed it has no duration. It's meant to be always up, like the aura it replaces.

I would LOVE to see something to back this up

MrCharisma wrote:

I'll bump this again just coz it doesn't look like anyone's reached a consensus.

Quote:

Battlefield Presence (Su)

At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

"This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed"

The way I read it, it's always on, but unless the paladin acts in the surprise round & wins initiative they're flat-footed & have to reactivate it.

I don't see it that way. Take Antimagic Field

"An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration."

Given the similar language used, I see it that, if it is in fact up all the time after activation, then the Flat-footed condition would simple stop it from granting the feat until you are no longer Flat-footed and resume afterward.


I would note that the ability that the paladin gives up to get this new archetype ability is an always on ability that also is suspended while the paladin is unconscious, and then resumes.

So it makes sense that this replacement ability is... always on (sure, standard to activate, but then it has no timeout), and is only suppressed (not ended) when the paladin is unconscious or flat-footed.


is there any official reply about this yet? lets flag that first post for faq and see if we can get an answer! woo


Reviving this thread as I would like more thoughts on this, maybe something official.

My main issues are less on the timing (is it up all the time? only when you start it during combat?)

And more is it an "Aura" of effect or a triggering area.

Do my allies have to stay within 30' of me to retain the use of the bonus teamwork feat? Or only upon activation and they can move about after as far as they'd like so long as they can see and hear me?


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It's an aura. It acts just like aura of courage, except it grants a teamwork feat instead of a saving throw bonus.

The Concordance

Cheapy wrote:
I talked to the author of the archetype and he confirmed it has no duration. It's meant to be always up, like the aura it replaces.

Can you show me the Link of the author's reply? thx


Julien Dien wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I talked to the author of the archetype and he confirmed it has no duration. It's meant to be always up, like the aura it replaces.
Can you show me the Link of the author's reply? thx

The way it was worded, the discussion happened off boards, likely in person at a convention.

Cheapy is a reasonably reliable source. I doubt he was lying. But going with the likely assumption that he heard correctly and that was the authors’s intent, it still isn’t exactly “official”. Rules have been judged to work different then author intent before.

The Concordance

Battlefield Presence says "a tactician can direct her allies in battle." I just don't know whether the effect ends when the combat ends.


Quote:
This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious.

For being flat-footed to matter, the ability would need to be on before combat starts.

I think the anti-magic interpretation makes the most sense. The ability is activated but not functioning when the paladin is flat footed or unconscious. Once those conditions are removed, the ability picks up where it left off. That limitation was probably added specifically to prevent cheesing the lookout feat.

The Concordance

Sounds Fair. We will go with this adjudication.

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