Roco's page

Flurry of snowballs is great when you get it but doesn't scale at all, not even with intensify spell. Chill touch is not a cold spell; frostbite is.

Winter's grasp (witch 2) is a good AoE debuff with rime spell. Better than flurry because it has range, area and a lingering effect. You get ice storm as a 3rd level spell as a winter witch (at 6th class level) and it would be OK to specialise in too, at least at first. Ice spears (witch 3) might be better in the long run, but it's not great until you have a couple of spears (CL 8). Snowball (witch 1) would be possibly the best choice for pure damage. Witch blasting spells do suck.

Oh ya, ice Spears would take some time but even with just 1 it would be pretty sweet.

No aoe debuffing like flurry can do though, by level 8 at least two specific targets can be hit

Flurry of snowballs is great when you get it but doesn't scale at all, not even with intensify spell. Chill touch is not a cold spell; frostbite is.

Winter's grasp (witch 2) is a good AoE debuff with rime spell. Better than flurry because it has range, area and a lingering effect. You get ice storm as a 3rd level spell as a winter witch (at 6th class level) and it would be OK to specialise in too, at least at first. Ice spears (witch 3) might be better in the long run, but it's not great until you have a couple of spears (CL 8). Snowball (witch 1) would be possibly the best choice for pure damage. Witch blasting spells do suck.

The issue with the large area lingering spells is, like obscuring mist, detremental to my allies and they'll chew me out for it as well.

Chill touch "can" be cold with the winter Witch hex frozen caress (add in reach meta magic for ranged touch attacks)

Ya, the issue with flurry is no scaling, but still, 30' area cone. There is that one meta magic that increases damage by 1.5x so there is that at least.

So my DM is letting us re-work some aspects of our characters before we reach level 4, so I was thinking maybe take out reactionary for something a bit more fun, like magical lineage.

I'm playing a winter witch.

I'm curious what metamagic and what one spell would be good/fun to specialize in?

Off hand I'm thinking spells like:
Snowball (Throw rime, and then later, extra damage metamagic feats)
Flurry of Snowballs (as above, but AOE, for 1 spell level higher)

Also, suggestions can be for things not specifically for a winter witch.

I thought about trying to do touch spells cus of Reach metamagic... but there's doesn't seem to be many good touch spells. Maybe chill touch at best?

If you truly wish to strike fear into your players, or DM... as a Winter Witch, break out in song when you cackle... make them truly feel the coldness of your heart as you channel your inner Disney star.

Oh gosh xD

That's exactly what I was trying to avoid!

We're playing reign of winter and that's just low hanging fruit x3

Laughing is a pretty iconic thing for a witch to do. Whatever you change it to it would have to be something that occurs as the result of witch exerting themselves in some way.

So, I dunno flatulence?
clucking like a chicken?

The ideas don't have to be for serious witches. Like, maybe a witch is part tap dancing bard and does a short shuffle to extend it

I think the first thing you need to do is ask what the witch's flavor is and who they are as a person; what the influence of their patron is doing to them. For example, a plague witch might loudly, meanacingly cough and hack, a sign of disease.

Ooo, coughing is a fun idea! What are some others?

Simple idea:

What are fun ways to re-flavors the Witch cackle instead of just creepy laughter?

Doesn't have to be just vocal either! Love to hear some ideas.

Hmm, thinking it over I think Fortune will be my pick for one sole reason:

It's more fun for my team.

They get to make the rolls and choose when to use it. Instead of it being some second roll the DM does behind the screen and reliant on the enemy to do something.

Plus it can be used out of combat too.

Once a day sucks, but ah well. I'll still probably get misfortune or protection at some point as well.

I run Protective Luck + Soothsayer + Cackle

It is not doubt a very strong combination but, it is in no way broken and worthy of banning. It's strength comes from the action economy, and in this case, the bigger your party, the bigger the benefit. What would once take you 5 turns to put the hex onto everyone is eliminated.

What people seem to forget is that Cackle only works within 30ft, and the Witch is likely going to have to put themselves in harms way for it to benefit everyone. Protective Luck also doesn't affect the Witch themselves, so you have to ask, why isn't the DM (With smart enemies) targeting the Witch?

If you want to target the party, hit them with AoE, and save or suck spells. It will only seem broken if the DM is hitting himself in the head against a brick wall

A note on the Cackle Blouse, I have found you should save those swift action cackles for when you want to cast a full round spell

Oh, I forgot to mention, I'm playing a ratfolk witch, so their FCB is 5' a level to a hex.

So, in a couple levels that 30' issue won't be so much.

Protective Luck (Su)

The witch can cause fate to twist so that it benefits a creature within 30 feet for 1 round. Whenever that creature is targeted by an effect that requires an attack roll, including weapon attacks, the attacker must roll twice and take the worse result.

At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. A witch cannot use this ability on herself. Hexes that affect the fortune hex, such as cackle, also affect protective luck.

Soothsayer (Su)

The witch’s predictions become self-fulfilling prophecies.

Benefit(s): When the witch uses the evil eye hex, fortune hex, misfortune hex, or retribution major hex, she can choose to delay the effect. If she does so, the hex takes effect the next time the target makes a roll that could be affected by the hex (such as an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check) or is affected by an action that could be modified by the hex (such as being attacked when the hex would affect the target’s AC), whichever comes first (ignoring actions that are not in combat and actions that have no penalty for failure). The duration of the hex begins on the same round as the action that causes it to take effect.

The hex is wasted if it is not triggered within 24 hours.

is this too powerful a combination?

With protective luck + soothsayer you can pre-protect your whole party before any fight.

Add in cackle and they are protected the whole fight, every fight.

Maybe it's not as great as I think it is. Admittedly I have to stop moving to keep cackling, sometimes I'll be forced to move and not cackle, breaking the chain.

But, unlike fortune, I can just keep using it for every fight.

Fortune works in the same way but is only good for one fight, because once you stop cackling you can't affect your team again.

I know the wizard, and especially the arcanist, have ways to speed up preparing spells (the arcanist has an ability that burns one of their arcane points and you get a spell re-prepared in 1 round!)

Essentially I'm trying to find out if there are ways for any other prepared caster class to get such benefits:

Re-prepare a spell slot that already has a prepared spell in it
Prepare a spell slot faster than 15 minutes (ideally within 1 round or 2 so it can be combat viable)

When I read the severe cold rules:

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.

I read it as "she IS Fatigued"... and here's why...

Frostbite and hypothermia are not defined conditions in Pathfinder, Fatigue is. That simple. Done.

If a character tried to argue it at my table, I would 100% pull the "because the GM said so" card, and we would move on.

But I have frostbite, the book says to treat it AS Fatigue, not that it IS Fatigue...

And I'm the GM, and I am treating your frostbite as I treat the Fatigued condition, the book also explains what that is... you are Fatigued, deal with it.

I wouldn't waste another second listening to arguments about frostbite and hypothermia when the only reference to either of those conditions points you directly to the Fatigued condition.

Fail a save, take nonlethal damage from the cold? Fatigued. It sucks to be cold, and that's a fact.

Even Paizo got that much right.

I'm pretty much entirely inclined to agree, but the issue is my GM originally rules it as the other way. But these are good talking points. The point about Hypothermia not being a defined thing is actually the most telling I think.

Barbarians cannot Rage whilst Fatigued... so that particular class feature "looks" if the Fatigued condition is present.

So in that vain, would Severe Cold, causing Hypothermia, which is like fatigue, make barbarian unable to rage?

Or, does the fact that it's not precisely labeled as Fatigue prevent this?

If it doesn't progress to exhaustion upon gaining fatigued again, then you aren't really treating the character as fatigued.

Oh,also, at what point is this kind of fatigue not counted as fatigue ?

By that I mean, are there abilities or descriptors that check for the "fatigue " status and since this is hypothermia that is being treated "as fatigue" would this kind of fatigue trigger those other effects?

If it doesn't progress to exhaustion upon gaining fatigued again, then you aren't really treating the character as fatigued.

The character is fatigued. If they are fatigued again by some other effect, they are exhausted. If they heal the nonlethal damage, they are no longer fatigued from severe cold; if they were exhausted because of it and some other fatigue effect, they would be fatigued instead.

(Amusingly, extreme cold doesn't fatigue you at all. *shrug*)

When you say "some other fatigue effect" do you mean severe cold's ticking save affect doesn't trigger fatigue again?

I'd assume if you failed your save twice and haven't recovered the damage then you'll be exhausted. But, unlike normal fatigue, you can warm up and heal your non-lethal damage to get rid of the fatigue and exauhstion

Roco wrote:

So, recently there was a debate on how Unshakable Chill (the spell) and "Severe Cold" rules work.

From my understanding, when you suffer Sever Cold conditions, you are fatigued and like fatigue rules, you may suffer exhaustion if you get hit with a fatigue causing source again.

So, basically, Unshakable Chill + another Unshakable Chill / Touch of fatigue should cause exhaustion that won't go away till they heal their non-lethal damage/get enough rest.

My fellows seem to think because it says "A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.

specifically the bold part there, that you only count the fatigue penalties, not the condition itself and its ability to upgrade to exhaustion.

Is this true? How the heck does severe cold work with relation to Unshakable Chill?

If indeed it only gives the penalty and not the condition of fatigue, then I can't think of ANY use for Unshakable Chill.

I'm not native english speaker.

The character is NOT fatigued, but treated as:

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued).

Is it the same?

That is the debate between my friends.

Does the wording "Treat her as fatigued" mean that it is fatigue and thus can go into Exhaustion? (logically speaking, one would assume yes, because certainly you get exponentially tired the more you dredge through cold weather)

But Pathfinder isn't always logical.

I pointed out that if you make "Treat as X" descriptors NOT follow all the rules FOR that descriptor there can be some problems with other abilities and spells.

One example was Aether kineticist's ability:

Telekinetic Invisibility.

"You weave strands of aether, bending light and dampening sound; This works as invisibility except that the aetheric bending is easier to notice than normal invisibility, so your bonus on Stealth checks is halved (+10 while moving and +20 while perfectly still).

However, the dampened sound allows you to avoid automatic detection via sound-based blindsense and blindsight, but you do not receive the bonus on Stealth checks from this wild talent against a creature with such abilities."

"This works as invisibility" is the same as "Treat as Invisibility"

If you rule that "Treat as fatigue" does not follow the rules of fatigue, and some how some bits work (mostly the stats) and some bits don't (the other effects, like upgrading into exhaustion), then likewise the Aether Kineticist would actually be QUITE visible... but still getting a stealth bonus. Because being completely unseen is the condition "Invisible". Likewise, since it's not ACTUALLY invisible, things like "see invisibility" would not work, as it's not technically invisible.

Bump

So, recently there was a debate on how Unshakable Chill (the spell) and "Severe Cold" rules work.

From my understanding, when you suffer Sever Cold conditions, you are fatigued and like fatigue rules, you may suffer exhaustion if you get hit with a fatigue causing source again.

So, basically, Unshakable Chill + another Unshakable Chill / Touch of fatigue should cause exhaustion that won't go away till they heal their non-lethal damage/get enough rest.

My fellows seem to think because it says "A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.

specifically the bold part there, that you only count the fatigue penalties, not the condition itself and its ability to upgrade to exhaustion.

Is this true? How the heck does severe cold work with relation to Unshakable Chill?

If indeed it only gives the penalty and not the condition of fatigue, then I can't think of ANY use for Unshakable Chill.

Alright, last question and I'll stop fretting over this build.

I want to go Magical Lineage for my trait, I figure having options is more fun that just reactionary for that +2 init.

So, for a winter witch, what spells would be amazing to use for Magical Lineage?

Off hand, I'm thinking Snowball, Flurry of Snowballs, Ill-Omen.

Its a pity you're going Decoy. A Valet familiar gets Prestidigitation at will, allowing them to move up to 1 LB of material. Supposedly they use this ability along with others to help you in your magical research; often GMs allow this to work for helping them hold a wand or scroll. You'd have to consult your GM but that's one avenue.

Another is having a 13 Cha and taking Evolved Familiar: Basic Magic as your 1 point evolution. This in turn allows your familiar to use Mage Hand 1/day.

The last thing I can think of is Alter Self. Are you playing a Wizard or can someone make scrolls? Once you hit level 2 spells, I'd advise making as many of these scrolls as you can afford. Layer your rabbit with as many defenses as you can, slap 3 minutes of Alter Self on them to turn them into a Small sized humanoid type, and blamo, they can hold/use a wand.

Decoy is mainly to allow speech with no issues.

I debated Valet but it takes away too many good things and gives me stuff I won't use (like teamwork feat copying).

I can already tell prestidigitation would not work, DM would say no.

Theres the Anthropomorphic Animal spell.

Changeling/Shapeless familiar feats could let it shape change to something that can use wands.

A figment familiar could use 2 point evolution for arms.

Grasping Tail + Mischievous Tail feats, but a normal familiar usually only has 1 feat unless you find an archetype like the witch one that you can give it some feats.

The DM might allow you to pick Evolved familiar for hands if you pick the claw or slam option? Though id expect most wouldn't allow that.

Familiars have feats you can choose at all?

Good ideas though.

So, my DM says he'll allow my familiar to use a wand or other similar activated item (even though I believe the PFS ruling is no regular familiar can use magic items and only a small list of improved familiars can, and only wands)

But, they need to be able to speak, hold/manipulate the wand, and of course, they use their use magic device.

So, are there ways (feats, items, spells etc) that can give a familiar a spare "hand" to use? (not necessarily a real hand, but some way to get my rabbit familiar the ability to hold and use things)

Speaking I got covered. Probably going with the Decoy archetype and by level 5 they'll be able to speak.

Just given this another bump, in-case anyone else had some input before my next game.

I've done some searching and I haven't found any conclusive answers. Someone mentioned a Blackwick Cauldron, which does allow you to make as many potions as your GP limit allows in a day. But that's near 10k gold!

Surely there is a cheaper means to not have to spend 4 days brewing up a cure light potion for each party member.

I'm sure Alchemist get something that allows them to break this limit. Not sure what though.

What feat, classes, abilities, items, allow you to make more than 1 potion a day?

Got a crossbow? And a long spear? Always a good bet at low levels.

Don't think I'll have access to a crossbow starting out, but I'll probably pick one up later. Just to have some ranged option when all else fails.

Always have a dagger, with any character.

So I'm playing a witch and am thinking of giving my bunny familiar the valet archetype. IF I do I'll take brewpotion/Cauldron Hex.

But I'm confused with how the interaction works.

Cooperative Crafting

Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.

So first off... is it the familiar who is the main crafter or can my witch still be the main crafter?

When it mentions "Doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day"

Is that effectively doubling the speed I make something? Like, a potion takes 2 hours, would it take 1? (potions taking 8 hours for 1,000 takes 4?)

Does the assistant also take part of the work? So, if it goes to 1 hour of crafting, would my assistant do 30 minutes of work and I do the other 30 minutes? Or would we complete it IN 30 minutes cus we're both working on it at the same time?

Or is the crafting time assuming both are crafting at the same time?

I played a witch up to 17 and I loved the hair hex

That being said an amazing hex for you right now is the swamps grasp hex.

Create massive (I mean massive) spaces of difficult terrain, lasts for a long time and can be used endlessly all day to renew the durations.

Controlling that means no charging at you, no 5 foot steps to shift around and provoking AoO to move.

You'll find that will work well for low levels.

Hmm, I question this, especially at level 1. It's only 10', most things can just walk around it. You are right, they can't charge if placed exactly right, but it also takes a standard and only lasts 1 round.

Maybe when the area and rounds get larger, it might be neat. But, like obscuring mist, it can as easily mess up your teamates as well as the enemies.

Roco wrote:

I'm debating though... should I take fortune over protective first?

Some say yes, but I don't think so. Note that Fortune can be used on each person only once per day and applies to one roll per round. Protective Luck can be used on each person as many times per day as you like and applies to however many attacks target them.

Ya, I'm inclined to agree, honestly. Just hard to decide when to take it.

Roco wrote:

(I'm also debating nerfing my pool of hex options to take two feats, Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spell Caster, this gives me my lost spell progression level.

Yes, I took both. The level of spell progression is worth two feats IMO.

I think I'll do the same. Just hard to say no to two hexes.

Roco wrote:

Some of those spells will be for later but Ray of Sickening seems to be pretty darn good. Ray of enfeeblement is a nice one too, but it's way too variable.

Where these spells really shine is when you hit a low strength creature (e.g. various tiny fey) with a couple of them and reduce their effective strength to 0.

You make a good point, though I think I'll leave to learn it for later. But probably gonna pick that up asap.

Roco wrote:

Ill omen... I debating taking Magic Lineage so I might get the quickened version of it by level 7 or 8. Think that's a good idea or is there another trait (or spell for ML) that you would suggest?

I didn't take ML for this build, but it is definitely a strong way to go and Ill Omen would be a great option for it.

I'm just unsure because the trait won't be useful till way later. And it can only really do one thing for Ill Omen. Where as if I choose something like Iceball I can do lots of meta magic with it.

Okay so here's my new build idea:

Level 1 Winter Witch

Race: Ratfolk
-Surface Sprinter (30' movement)
-Market Dweller
-Low-Light
-Unnatural
-Cornered Fury

Ability Score, 20 point buy Race adjustments included
STR: 05
DEX: 18
CON: 12
INT: 19
WIS: 08
CHA: 11

(debating this adjustment, and getting more INT at 4 and more CHA at lvl 8, or going CON 13, WIS 12, and CHA 7 with CON getting the buff at lvl 8)

Background Traits
Wary (+1 sense motive and Perception, Perception is class skill)
Reactionary (+2 Init) OR Magical Lineage (either Ill Omen or Snowball, Maybe ray of frost? oh and snowball is the original version with stun)

Class
Familiar: Arctic Hare (+4 init)
Perhaps either the Valet, the Sage, or the Decoy archetypes.
Patron: Winter

Feats and Abilities
1) Hex: Slumber / Feat: Extra Hex: Evil Eye
I'm not sure if I want slumber or not? Part of me wants to put another hex in that spot.
2) Hex: Cackle
3) Feat: Extra Hex: Protective Luck (or Soothsayer if I got Protective luck before level 3?)
4) +1 INT (20 total)
5) Feat: Favored Prestige Class: Winter Witch // Retrain Cackle and get another hex after obtaining Cackle Blouse. (soothsayer here if I didn't get it sooner)
6) Switch to Winter Witch Prestige Class //
7) Prestigious Spellcaster (spellcasting progression +1, fixing the lost level from going Prestige) // Hex: Not sure
8) From here just more Prestige winter witch and more hexes probably.

Spells
Cantrips:
ALL + Ray of Frost (bought with gold at character creation)
Level 1:
-Comprehend Languages
-Cure Light Wounds
-Ear-Piercing Scream
-Ill-Omen
-Mage Armor
-Obscuring Mist
-Ray of Sickening or Ray of Enfeeblement?
-Shadow Trap
-Snowball

Items

Level 1 I bought a few extra spells and a basic ceremonial robe for armor (a simple +1). A witches kit and a few winter gear related things.

Level 2: Save up for

Level 3: Get a Lesser Rod of Rime

Level 4:

Level 5: Get the Cackle blouse, retrain cackle for something else.

Level 6: From here and on start getting the essentials, like headbands, rings of protection, cloaks etc.

Thoughts, suggestions?

I've been playing a Winter Witch in this campaign without too much problem. Yes, there are lots of things which are resistant to cold damage and/or mind-affecting effects... but seldom both and those aren't the only tools in your arsenal. Some of the things you mentioned were just lucky rolls or bad timing rather than any limitation of the class. First level pure casters are also just not very powerful... you have a handful of spells and then you're all but helpless... while the fighter can keep swinging that sword all day. You become much more versatile as level increases.

I've been putting Protective Luck on our tank and maintaining it with Cackle since early days. More recently I added Soothsayer to the mix and now the entire party (except me) automatically forces all attacks against them to roll twice and take the lower result... HUGE impact.

Slumber works on the vast majority of the creatures encountered, so you can sit and do that all day OR you can mix it up with spells. Setting aside the obvious cold spells, I like; Chill Touch (good for those undead), Ear Piercing Scream, Ill Omen, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Lightning Bolt. However, there are LOTS of non-cold or mental options on the Witch spell list. Just focus on spells that should each work on more than half of encounters and then mix them up so that they aren't all useless for the SAME half. The biggest issue with the class is really that you CAN'T use fire spells... so always having some vials of alchemist fire or the like isn't a bad idea.

I've got a Valet Arctic Hare familiar, so I've also had fun with him doing 'hop by touch effects' and using the Spirit Share spell to deliver healing and other potions from a little backpack he wears. That helps with action economy since he gets his own set of actions. Non Valet familiars might not be as good for this as they can't move both before and after delivering the touch effect and thus might wind up in the line of fire.

Also, I'd strongly recommend taking the Winter Witch...

Huh, never knew of Protective hex! Or the synergy with Soothsayer hex.

I'm debating though... should I take fortune over protective first?
(I'm also debating nerfing my pool of hex options to take two feats, Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spell Caster, this gives me my lost spell progression level.

Some of those spells will be for later but Ray of Sickening seems to be pretty darn good. Ray of enfeeblement is a nice one too, but it's way too variable. On average right now it'll do 4 STR damage or -2 to attack, which sickened I believe does the same thing already. True, I can stack it, but at level 1 I ain't gonna be having the extra slots to keep spamming that spell.

Ill omen... I debating taking Magic Lineage so I might get the quickened version of it by level 7 or 8. Think that's a good idea or is there another trait (or spell for ML) that you would suggest?

Right now my traits are sitting at Wary (perception class skill and +1 to that and sense motive) and either reactionary or ML. I was also thinking ML-> snowball or some other ice spell to get free rime around level 3 (or just get a rod).

Valet? Oh! There are familiar arechetypes! Didn't even realize...

After doing some research through the options I'm not sure any of them are good options @^@ Valet, Decoy, Protector, and Sage seem like okay choices. But I'm not sure. If I choose any I'm leaning more towards Decay or sage.

Valet... I'm not sure how that works with Spirit Share Spell... it's weird cus it's a personal spell, not a touch target spell... so I don't think the rabbit can deliver it for you? But, it becomes a touch attack target (cus it's a standard to activate it, then a standard to touch someone to give them the potion) so.... does that mean because it has a touch action even though it's not a touch attack spell you can give it to the familiar? And then does it take it from the familiar's pouch or yours cus you're the one who cast it, not the famliar? It's a weird interaction that's for sure.

That does seem like a neat idea, even if just to swing by and give a potion when needed. It still takes a standard action on my part, but it saves my move so I can cackle and allows the potion to be activated right away that turn cus the rabbit is using its standard to deliver it. If it works that way.

(oh, and I too have a Arctic Hare! Chose it cus rabbit before I realized it's +4 init buff)

Oh and ya, I heavily plan to take the Prestige for winter witch.

I wanna be a winter witch winter witch with winter patron in a winter game.

Winter Witch can be fantastic blaster (for a Witch) and a great controller.

The issues you will encounter are monster immune to mind affecting effects, and creatures resistant or immune to cold damage. Seems you've gotten the short end of a stick and ended up facing both.

Your hex choices are alright, but not at first level.

Slumber is save or suck, but you are at a point where the suck hurts you more than anything, so I would save it for a later level once you have the minimum required hexes (Evil Eye, Misfortune, Fortune, Cackle)

Prehensile Hair is... well I don't want to say terrible, but it's terrible. Get rid of it if you can.

I can't specifically speak about the reign of winter campaign, but it sounds like something a Winter Witch would fit right at home in (remember aside from doing plenty of cold damage, you also gain ever growing resistances to cold so it goes both ways). It definitely sounds like it will be an uphill battle at lower levels. How long is the module supposed to be?

As for the Winter Witch. I'd take Evil Eye as first hex. You will have people saying Misfortune is better, and it is, but the difference is that even if Evil Eye is resisted, it still takes effect for a full round and can be recast on the same target unlike many hexes. Then I would go for Fortune and Cackle for third Hex.

Between those three you can keep your enemies struggling, your allies knocking it out of the park with fortune as you merely stand behind them cackling ominously.

For your spells, Ear Piercing Scream is a good choice as it is sonic damage, something very few things have resistance to, plus it dazes so that's a nice bonus. Shadow Trap is a really good 1st level battlefield control spell, keeping those nasty high damage low will enemies away until you can deal with them safely. Any other spells are a bonus.

You will not be the primary damage dealer, not even the secondary one. Your role is to debilitate foes and boost allies, More in the former group than the latter one too so your...

Thanks for these Suggestions! Ya, Prehensile Hair is just not worth it for what I'm doing. You really have to build around it and even then, having to pull it out as a standard action really hurts.

So, I've decided to play winter Witch seeing as the concept sounds "cool" on paper, but I'd like some help in building it.

The problem is I'm fighting an up hill battle since most things will either be resistant to me or flat out immune.

Case in point, first games handful of fights were:

Sit and do nothing cus the zombies in that encounter were immune to cold damage (and all my mind effecting abilities) so I tried to guidance... Oh wait we have a bard. So I tried to aid another... Oh riiight -3 to melee hit.

So I did functionally nothing there.

Next fight was against some dragon worm thing, find out real quick it's immune to slumber, fair. It's a dragon type I suppose. Then I think, great time to try and pull out my prehensile hair and try to use frostbite cus it probably will shake off anything else, and hey fatigue is something, even if it is just one round.

Sadly the animal companion in the party murderlated it by round 3 (cus growing my hair is a standard action) so I had no opportunity.

Couldn't heal my party member cus the bard had healing.

Then pixies! Heck, ice pixies but you know, something I could sleep I was pretty sure! I go first and.... Doesn't work.

Then the sorcerer goes and casts sleep spell and knocks two of em out.... At this point in just feeling pointless. Sure, the third pixie got their revenge by color spraying him but...

Well I cast obscuring mist thinking to protect my teamates who are unconscious.

Turns out it just wastes 2 turns as I life the fog after that and we find the one pixie left just ran away with their buddies.

So ya, first time playing an adventure path, 1st level, felt pretty darn useless. And I know level 1 is gonna be rough for anyone. But I just felt so gosh darn useless and I can't help but feel it's gonna be that way

So question 1: is winter Witch even remotely viable for this module? Sure, uphill battle, but am I just playing a pointless character?

Question 2: if still somewhat viable, how would you build your winter Witch for the Reign of Winter campaign?

I should mention I'm not looking for spoilers but if you know what's gonna happen and can give vague advice like "you really gonna want this ability or spell, trust me" then that works.

I would make your "bullet" like a tranquilizer dart filled with a healing syrum, or maybe like a paintball with a fast-absorbing healing syrum, or something to that effect. Then it doesn't need to cause damage.

Ya, basically my DM is letting me craft something like that, a non-lethal bullet. Does damage but it doesn't matter cus it gets healed over due to non-lethal.

So, currently this is my idea for this 1920's era "Shoot you and feel better" Doctor. Since it's set in an alternative 1920's america, I'm playing a German Doctor who defected near the beginning of the Great War.

He's got a license to use his alchemy for medical purposes and is respected by many for being a Doctor, but still scorned by many for being German.

Due to his training as a combat medic he knows how to use a gun and has a pistol, a double barrel shotgun, and a swordcane pistol. He's also part spy for an American based organization (still trying to figure out which one.) But Doctors make great spies so I decided to throw that in there and have a few minor abilities that help me slooth.

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 13
WIS 10
CHA 7
INT 20

Human Template
Alternative race trait: Comprehensive Education (replaces Skilled with all Knowledge skills are class skills)

Traits: Clever Wordplay (desguise) Student of Philosophy
Since I'm dumping CHA these help my social skills as INT.

Alchemist Level 5 (Gun Chemist and Inspired Chemist)

Feats are ALL currently going to extra discoveries.

Infusion // Precise Bombs // Spontaneous Healing // Healing Bomb // Bonus Investigator Talents [Numerical Alchemy and Applied Engineering. But I'm also debating nixing NA and taking The Whole Time, for that sweet invisibility perk] // Neutralizing Bomb

My skills will focus mainly on:
Bluff // Desguise // craft (alchemy) // Heal // Disable Device // At least 1 rank in all Knowledge though focuses are: Arcana // Engineering // nobility // Sleight of Hand // Stealth

Weapons:
Double-Barreled Shotgun (MW)
---+7 to hit , 1d8 damage (with alchemical ammo, add INT, which I'll basically always be doing)
Sword Cane Pistol (MW)
Revolver

Armor:
Mithral Chain Shirt (MW)
AC = 17, touch = 13 (14 if bullet), flatfooted = 14

Other items of interest:
Formula Alembic
Scrap Collector's Strap
Boro Bead 2nd level
Oils of Silence
Hat of Desguise
Amulet of Bullet Protection
Beneficial Bandolier
Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath
Various kits
Adhesive Strips
Mending Paste
Firearm oil
Alchemist portable lab

Still need to look up various other alchemical items or magic items I'd want to have. But with only 10,500 starting money it's hard to decide what. I feel I want to actually steer away from generic stat boosters for the time being. They are too expensive right now when I want to afford many other fun toys.

So ya, those are all the various things I've thought up. I still have to determine spells, skills, and such.

If anyone else has more ideas on this build I'd love to hear ideas! I know there's lots of things I probably missed. Especially alchemical items.

You'll want point blank shot and precise shot because your patients will often be in melee. Extra alchemist discovery will likely be your last feat. You're going to want one discovery at least going to those talents, gun chemist wants their chemical stability discovery and you're talking about taking spontaneous healing.

Note that those two archetypes both change the options available as discoveries and so aren't technically compatible. Check with your GM.

Hmm, it's always hard to decide if I want to invest feats in small upgrades to hit or damage. I know damage I'm not super concerned with. I don't have to be killing all the things. My main goal is to make sure others can do that by keeping them healed and buffed.

It was hard though to decide if I wanted point-blank + Rapid shot or if I wanted 2 discoveries. I don't really consider precise shot much as I feel with proper tactics, targeting, and the fact that I hit touch anyways, it's not usually gonna be an issue.

Chemical Stability is hard to decide on.... on the one hand, never really worry about misfires! On the other... my misfires will range from 1 to 3 depending on the type of ammo I'm using. That's not a huge chance of failure.

Plus, I can get reliable or lucky on it later.

In addition, there are plenty of ways to metigate broken guns. The best one I've found is to just have a Scraper's Strap wrapped on my gun at all times. So even when it's broken it'll work with no penalties till I can fix it. (I'll still miss the shot though... which may lead me to getting that discovery at a later level)

As for the archetype compatibility, I believe that giving additional options for abilities does not normally augment that class feature. It be like if two different rouge archetypes had an additional talent they were allowed to take because of their archetype making it invalid for the two to work together.

Also, I'm using Pathbuilder (a really good and reliable app) and it allows them to work together. (usually indicating it's legal to do so)

But I'll certainly double check my build with the GM!

Thanks for the advice.

It seems to me that the combination of Infusion + Healing Bomb is good for creating the effect you want almost regardless of what Alchemist Archetype you pick.

Bombs are Ranged Touch Attacks. If you take the Explosive Missile Discovery, you can put your Bombs in arrows and shoot them, and Marker Dye Arrows are also Ranged Touch Attacks.

I'm thinking Grenadier, myself, but like I said, I think it's hard to go wrong.

Since I'm going Gun Chemist, I actually don't use Bombs, but rather Alchemical Ordnance. It's basically bomb on a bullet with some restrictions.

Can't take Grenadier with this archetype, which I'm fine with. If I need large area of effect splash I'll just use 30' cone scatter shot of a shotgun.

But ya, wanna use guns with my abilities so gonna stick with Gun Chemist.

So the original concept was I wanted to play a Doctor and the best fit for that I felt was Alchemist. So I wanted to try and make a healing and utility/support focused Alchemist.

Then I found the Gun Chemist.... and I realized healing bomb works with their bullet instead of bomb ability. Meaning I could shoot people with healing.
Single target, use exploding bullet for splash, or use a shotgun for scatter.

All these things seemed super fun and now I want to try and make "Shoot you with healing" a viable/fun play style. Though I'm still quite new to most things Alchemist.

So that's where you guys come in~

Basic set up as per the DM:

The system is Pathfinder(1st ed). Characters for it will be level 5, 20 point buy for stats, 10,500 GP starting funds, using the “Guns Everywhere” Pathfinder ruleset(Guns are simple weapons and at 10% cost, Gunslinger gets Gun Training @ level 1.) and the PFS HP track.

Small Rules Clarifications as well: 1. Detect Magic will not detect illusion spells such as invisibility. 2. Enchantment spells will have the effect of being apparent after they have worn off. IE If you cast Charm Person and it wears off they will know you cast Charm Person on them.

--------------

So, with this all in mind I'm playing a German Doctor who defected during the Great War, to America. (Badger person probably, actual race does not really matter beyond the mechanics, so my Badger dude can be slapped with any race template, though try to keep it under 15 RP, was probably thinking just human to keep it simple and free feat. Though Wayang and Elf seemed pretty good options as well)

Current thoughts on Stats:

STR 8
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 8
CHA 12

Since we're starting at level 5 I'll probably pump my dex to 16 as the 4th lvl ability bump. Then at level 8 later I'll raise my int. My race template will most certainly want to be an INT based race so 19 starting INT most likely.

I want him to be focused around healing and shooting. With utility and buffing being secondary options.

I think I'm pretty sold on Gun Chemist and Inspired Chemist as archetypes.

I'm taking Infused discovery for sure. Other abilities I was thinking about was spontaneous Healing then later Healing Hands.

Numerical Alchemy and Applied Engineering all seemed pretty fun.

Oh I should mention those are Investigator Talents, which I can access thanks to the Inspired Chemist archetype (2 talents for the price of one discovery! pretty nifty). Though the downside is any such talents are only usable while suing my Cognatogen, which the archetype replaces my mutagen for.

(there's a bit of a, probably unintended, exploit where you can take the "Two Talents in-place of a discovery" choice and then take one talent and one "Alchemist Discovery" , or 2 discoveries (which is limited by the investigator list of allowed discoveries to take). They would still be limited only when using the Cognatogen, but still that seems like an exploit and won't be used, sadly. But extra discoveries via feats still work to get 2 talents.

Haven't even thought of items yet really either.

So, the idea came about as a joke, but I'm curious now how one might homebrew a "reverse summoner" where basically you play an intelligent eidolon as the main player character, but can summon your spellcaster like a summoner could their eidolon.

Maybe it's due to some freak accident in the binding process, maybe one of the gods had some fun, whatever the reason, the Eidolon is the player, the summoner is the summoned companion.

How would you build this and make it balanced?

Summoner is already pretty busted (from what I've heard, never got to play one :< )

But I doubt one would just use the base rules for summoner or unchained summoner.

What are your thoughts? Like the concept? How would you make this class?

Now, keeping this in mind, I suppose this would mean any "effect" that I might have with a flurry of blows (such as some style feat or ability specifically saying when you USE flurry of blows) might be argued you don't get that affect when using Whirlwind Dance, as at that point the feat or ability is specifically calling out "Flurry of Blows" rather than "Full-Attack".

But, that might also be more of a RAI issue at that point because flurry of blows is obviously just Two-weapon fighting given to monk way back when they had less than full BAB and thus couldn't qualify for cool s!!% like improved two weapon fighting till WAY later.

So one might rule RAI that

"You can make a bunch of attacks... I don't care what label you give it, full attack with two-weapon fighting, flurry of blows, brawler's flurry, takes the same amount of effort and is basically the same thing (they all reference two-weapon fighting). Whirlwind dance let's you move and attack up to your maximum of attacks? Why wouldn't flurry count? It's what you're doing 9/10 when you full-attack anyways. Besides there's a similar monk ability that let's you move and flurry FOR FREE. So eh, let them have a more restricted one enemy per attack and spend a limited resource effect and get whatever when-you-flurry ability they have."

That's how I would think about it anyhow x3

So, based on what I'm reading about what a "Full Attack Action" is, the term seems to be a sub-type.

Much like "Melee Attack" is a subtype. There's melee, ranged, and many other things that could be qualified as a different kind of Attack. They are all bundled under a "Standard" action.

Let's rephrase Whirlwind Dance:

"As a [Standard action], she can spend 1 panache point to move up to her speed. She can make attacks against creatures with her reach during this movement, up to the number of attacks she’s entitled to with a [Melee-Attack]."

Reading it this way, though the answer only ever comes out to 1 attack, it's essentially the same idea.

(here's a way that makes a bit more sense perhaps: "As a [Standard action], she can spend 1 panache point to move up to her speed. She can make attacks against creatures with her reach during this movement, up to the number of [damage dice] she’s entitled to with a [Melee-Attack]."
Still strange but makes a bit more sense perhaps with the logic.

You would call an unarmed strike which is a standard action attack to use, a melee attack. You would call a sword swipe a standard action that's also a melee attack.

You would call a Flurry of Blows which is a full round action, a Full-Attack Action. (same with Brawler's flurry)

It even states in the combat section:

"Multiple Attacks
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack."

"Multiple Attacks" is a full-attack action which is a sub-type of Full-round action.

"Flurry of Blows" is a full-attack action which is a sub-type of a Full-round action.

Since Whirlwind Dance is asking for "Up to the number she is entitled to with a Full-Attack" it would stand to reason, as a qualifier much like "Melee Attack" it would check for any Full-Attack, just as if it would say "Melee-attack"

Thinking about going with the Outslug style line of feats. Thoughts? That extra 5' in a 5' step sounds juicy, as does the no negative lunge. The +2 attack and AC is just icing.

(Also pretty set on Brawler me thinks)

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action.

Its its own full round action. Whirlwind dance is its own, seperate, full round action. Not compatible.

Normally, I'd agree with you. But Whirlwind Dance calls for the full amount of attacks you can make with a Full Attack. So not really using the flurry action so much as checking that a full attack with flurry gives you all those attacks.

What that comes down to then I suppose is what you count as a full attack. Does it count any full attack you can make? Be it a flurry or just your base full attack?

(which in either case would still be 4 attacks, it just depends on whether I get to use 1 weapon or 2 due to brawler's flurry)

Went ahead and made a thread about these two questions in the Rules Questions Forum:

Questions about Brawlers

Got two main questions to pose here (asked them in the advice forum when asking advice about a character I'm making, but realized it might be good to post these rules questions here)

1) Does the brawler's flurry ability work with the swashbuckler archetype Whirling Dervish's 7th level deed? In effect, do I get the extra attacks like I normally would?

For example, normal two-weapon fighting rules, when I'm level 10, and just have swashbuckler levels, have the two-weapon and improved two-weapon fighting feats, I'm entitled to 4 attacks normally during the Whirling Dervish Deed.

That's when I normally can full-attack and thus my full allotment of attacks is 4 for whirling dervish.

"Whirlwind Dance (Ex) At 7th level, a whirling dervish can sweep through her opponents’ lines like a cyclone. As a full-round action, she can spend 1 panache point to move up to her speed. She can make attacks against creatures with her reach during this movement, up to the number of attacks she’s entitled to with a full attack. Each attack is made at her highest attack bonus, and must target a different creature. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This deed replaces superior feint and targeted strike."

Now say, I take 2 or 3 levels in brawler. With Flurry I'm allowed to use one weapon for all my two-weapon fighting attacks, and I've been told and looked up the FAQ that brawlers can both use the flurry ability to apply for feats with two-weapon fighting as a pre-requisite and apply early for Two-weapon fighting feat improvements, like improved two weapon fighting at level 7 (rather than getting it for free at level 8) BUT it's still only usable with flurries.

So now I can use one weapon and get 4 attacks like two-weapon fighting (same number of attacks, same penalty to hit, the only difference is I don't need two weapons and can gain precise strike with each hit, where before I was not able to due to the rules behind precise strike [I was fine with this trade off, but I found out about this possible combo])

Now that I have a full attack that only uses one weapon, can I use this same feature in qualification for the whirling dervish dance ability?
Will I get 4 attack still and can I still stick with 1 weapon?
Raw and Rai rulings are welcome.

2) If I took levels in both swashbuckler and figher (archetype Varisian Free-Style Fighter
Will my swashbuckler levels combine with my fighter levels when concerning the martial flexibility ability the archetype grants?

Swashbuckler is a hybrid class and does get considered for pretty much every thing a fighter does as its own level (feats, weapon training, etc)

"Martial Flexibility (Ex): A Varisian free-style fighter gains martial flexibilityACG as per the brawler class feature, treating his fighter level as his brawler level for the purposes of this ability. This ability replaces the bonus feats gained at 1st level, 6th level, 10th level, and 12th level, as well as weapon training and weapon mastery.

Again, Raw and Rai welcome

actually, another question:

I just found Varisian Free-Style Fighter
it says that it can treat fighter levels as brawler levels for martial flexing. Does that extend to swashbucklers having their level count as fighter levels?

Cus if that's the case, that sounds like the route I might take. Mainly because while having the extra damage from precise strike would be nice, having the fully upgraded level 10 martial flex ability seems SUPER good for my want of versatility and options~

Roco wrote:

hmmm... would I be able to get improved-two weapon fighting and still use it with the flurry?

Brawler's Flurry is one of the worst written abilities in all of Pathfidner, but as far as I can tell, yes - it uses the regular TWF rules, except as modified by the ability. The later levels only grant the Improved/Greater TWF feats, anyway, if you have them from selecting them they should behave exactly the same.

Basically, what Brawler's Flrury does, is a) grant the feats for free, b) allows you to use your main-hand weapon as an off-hand weapon as well, and c) hard-sets the strength bonus to damage rolls to 1x.

Roco wrote:

If Brawler's Flurry counts to get to take improved two-weapon fighting (and only can use it while I flurry) then it might be something I will do.

It was rules during the ACG playtest that "A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry".

Hmm, okay then! last question, would I still get 4 attacks when I whirling dervish? (the deed that lets me move and attack different targets as I move) it says it's based on my full attack. Flurry is a full attack actions so I'm inclined to think yes?

*Khan* wrote:

If you can retrain feats, I would recommend 2 levels of Brawler, to give you profiency in Waveblades and Two-weapon fighting feat while only using one weapon!! + an extra combat feat and Martial Flexibility which is also fun.

I second the suggestion of BRawler - "I want more options rather than stat buffs." doesn't get much better than Martial Flexibility (on a martial, obviously), and using a single weapon with Brawlers Flurry also enables Precise Strike, so the numbers are there, too.

A level in a dex-rage class is never bad for a Swashbuckler, although that is "merely" a numeric increase.

hmmm... would I be able to get improved-two weapon fighting and still use it with the flurry? Since currently I get 4 attacks with two weapons and I'd be going down to 3 with a flurry (This matters as less attacks will dampen the overall power and distance of my Whirling Dervish ability. With haste, being able to hit up to 5 things withen 60 feet of each other )

If Brawler's Flurry counts to get to take improved two-weapon fighting (and only can use it while I flurry) then it might be something I will do.

Have you considered multi-classing? Looks like you'd gain almost nothing from staying in class, as you you don't get the skaling bonus from Precise Strike, and the 11th and 15th level deeds aren't that great. What remains are bonus feats and small numerical bonuses, you could get that and more from other classes.

Any classes you'd suggest for 2-3 levels? (Game is ending at level 10 sadly)

Hard to think what would be a good fit

Just bumping this up as my next session is next week. Still stuck on a choice. Again, seeking more options rather than just higher numbers.

You didn't mention it in your feat list, but did you take Weapon Finesse as a feat? Whirling Dervish's Dervish Finesse doesn't work if you wield a weapon in your other hand (two weapon fighting) and the Dervish Dance class feature doesn't actually give you Dervish Dance, only for Prereqs for feats and explicitly only works with Swashbuckler Finesse.

Whirling Dervish wrote:

Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.

Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

Notably, the regular Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't have the language, so as long as you use normally piercing weapon (ie non-scimitar like a rapier) you can avoid the need to take Weapon Finesse again. However, Precise Strike deed will still not work since you can't make attacks with the offhand to use that.

I'm using waveblades (cracked white ion stone in a wayfinder to get the proficiency)

Swashbuckler finesse base still gives me piercing weapon finesse. The other ability that gives me Dex to damage specifies I get that while using my swashbuckler finesse. It did not specify specifically my whirling dervish finesse, so it still works.

There's an argument to be had over whether slashing or Piercing weapons count as both for abilities and feats or only one during whichever use you are using for that attack, but that's a discussion on another thread x3 for the purposes here I effectively have weapon finesse, Dex to damage, and can use slashing attacks from a P or S weapon to proc enforcer and still get Dex to hit and damage.

I know I don't get use of precise strike while two weapon fighting , and that's fine. I'm crit fishing and looking for more attacks most of the time. (If I need stronger single hits I can switch to just using one weapon for the turn)