Hello everyone, I’m going to be GMing a game in a few weeks using the Legacy of Fire adventure path. I have been thinking about the method that the PCs will use to generate their ability scores. I gave the players the option to choose between the “standard” method roll 4d6 drop lowest and 20 point purchase (both from the Core Rulebook pg. 15 ) for their group. I know that many players have a strong preference for one method over the others, I know that one player strongly prefers the standard method for example.
I would imagine that whatever ability score generation method used would work best if everyone used the same method, but would it be unwise to allow each PC to choose between standard and 20 pt. buy individually? Has anyone played in a game that did this and if so how did it turn out?
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I would imagine a 20pt buy would generate a higher avg abilities then the roll method. Not to mention it would allow people to get high scores in their primary stat always, with the roll method you may or may not get one 18.
I have never done it, I don't know how well it would work. I have my doubts it would work well and be "fair" though. Of course that depends a lot on your group and how important they consider stats and everyone being equal.
If you are going to use straight 4d6 drop the lowest you should lower the point buy. 4d6 I believe averages around 18points but also you have to consider that those rolling are taking a risk where as point buy isnt. I am actually offered something similar in my new campaign, where players could choose between 15 point buy, or 4d6 drop the lowest, or 2d6+6. Each had its positivies and negatives and the players were able to choose which they prefered.
I'd choose 4d6 even if it were a 25 point-buy. In my current 25 point-buy I have stats of 18, 12, 12, 12, 12, 10. In 4d6 I'd probably have one or two 16 or higher with the rest some place between 12 and 16. It's just how my dice rolls tend to turn out so I'd start out generally higher than a 20 point buy by a long shot.
Though, to be fair, the GM I run with a lot allows re-rolls on a dice result of 1.
I would imagine a 20pt buy would generate a higher avg abilities then the roll method. Not to mention it would allow people to get high scores in their primary stat always, with the roll method you may or may not get one 18.
I have never done it, I don't know how well it would work. I have my doubts it would work well and be "fair" though. Of course that depends a lot on your group and how important they consider stats and everyone being equal.
Now that you mention it it seems that my preference for point buy was coloring my outlook when giving out the options. Luckily the campaing hasn't started yet so changes can be made. The standard point buy now that I think of it is 15 pts., which means that I should use that when giving the option between it and standard rolling.
As another option since I would like the PCs to have slightly higher ability scores how would 20 pt. compare to standard, but generate 7 numbers are generated and drop the lowest number? Warning math may be ahead!
I would imagine a 20pt buy would generate a higher avg abilities then the roll method. Not to mention it would allow people to get high scores in their primary stat always, with the roll method you may or may not get one 18.
I have never done it, I don't know how well it would work. I have my doubts it would work well and be "fair" though. Of course that depends a lot on your group and how important they consider stats and everyone being equal.
Now that you mention it it seems that my preference for point buy was coloring my outlook when giving out the options. Luckily the campaing hasn't started yet so changes can be made. The standard point buy now that I think of it is 15 pts., which means that I should use that when giving the option between it and standard rolling.
As another option since I would like the PCs to have slightly higher ability scores how would 20 pt. compare to standard, but generate 7 numbers are generated and drop the lowest number? Warning math may be ahead!
4d6 ⇒ (3, 3, 4, 4) = 14
4d6 ⇒ (4, 4, 5, 4) = 17
4d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 3, 4) = 16
4d6 ⇒ (5, 1, 1, 6) = 13
4d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 4, 3) = 16
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 5, 6) = 18
So 11, 13, 13, 12, 13, 15 by an online RNG if you're using the Standard rolling method. That result is equivalent of a 20 pt buy.
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Will you allow the 4d6 to reroll if it comes out too low? The 4d6 averages around 23, but severely spikes both sides. If you're going to allow this, make sure you enforce the "no rerolls no matter what".
5 4d6 sets generating now (for fun) in Excel:
1) 10 15 7 13 12 14 (13 points)
2) 14 16 11 11 14 16 (32 points)
3) 14 10 13 10 16 15 (25 points)
4) 10 12 15 15 12 10 (18 points)
5) 6 5 11 15 16 13 (a very weird 6 point)
Would you be OK with all of these seeing play? If not you may just want to stick to 20 points; if you allow things like #5 to reroll you'll push the average up even higher.
Note that a 15 pt buy makes MAD characters very hard to play, thus Pallys are even more nerfed, while Wizards are OK.
But the choice you gave is fair. A point buy is better all around- less table time taken for rolling PCs, and less power discrepancy between PCs. However, if a Player really wants to roll, and is willing to roll on the table in front of everyone, and take even average results (yes, a “unplayable” set of rolls should be allowed to default to point buy, but not re-roll), then OK.
I have a idea: Tier 1 (Wizards, clerics etc) = 15 pt buy
Tier 2= 17
Tier 3= 20
Tier 4= 21
Tier 5= 22
I gave the option with the caveat that, if you choose to roll, you have to live with your stats...no switching to PB because you don't like what you got. Worked okay.
M
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The amount that 15-points nerf pallies / monks is severly overestimated. Take a 15 point pally, min-maxed Human pally:
Str: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 7
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Chr: 16
Vs a wizard:
Str: 7
Int: 20
Wis: 9
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 7
5 extra points will make the pally have a 14 Con / 8 Wis / 12 Dex; and the wizard a 12 Wis / 15 Con. This would be about the same gain overall; if the wiz getting slightly more survivable.
The ratios stay fine, the MAD vs SAD doesn't get better with higher points, both can use the extra points fine, and both will either dump or not dump @ both levels. But the GM won't have to modify mods / CRs at the 15-point buy.
Thank you everyone for your quick responses! You have all given me a lot of good and interesting advice that I would not have otherwise considered.
Since I'm using a module I suppose it's for the best that I use sandard point buy or standard roll method (no rerolls).
That's not to say that I slight any advice that was to the contrary of the above, I was happy to see all advice presented.
Note that a 15 pt buy makes MAD characters very hard to play, thus Pallys are even more nerfed, while Wizards are OK.
But the choice you gave is fair. A point buy is better all around- less table time taken for rolling PCs, and less power discrepancy between PCs. However, if a Player really wants to roll, and is willing to roll on the table in front of everyone, and take even average results (yes, a “unplayable” set of rolls should be allowed to default to point buy, but not re-roll), then OK.
I have a idea: Tier 1 (Wizards, clerics etc) = 15 pt buy
Tier 2= 17
Tier 3= 20
Tier 4= 21
Tier 5= 22
You have brought up many good points DrDeth. The 15 pt. buy arguably make some classes harder to play, which some players might not like so that's certainly something to consider.
I would imagine that when allowing for rerolls that the conditions allowing for a reroll should be stated before the rolling starts. If I remember correctly in D&D 3.5 there where 2 conditions for rerolls 1) if the highest score was 12 or less. 2) If the combined ability score modifiers was X or less, I forget the exact number (and may be wrong on the 12 in no 1).
The tier idea is very interesting, if the GM and PCs can all agree on what tier their characters fall under.
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Funny.
The last characters my BF and I both made (actually I rolled 2, 1 as a backup and to fit the party needs) We both did 4D6 drop the lowest
With his 6 4D6 rolls dropping the lowest, he came up with a 25PT buy character. I on the other hand came up with a 43 and 44 PT buy character.
I use normally gaming dice, the ones that come in games like monopoly, Axis and Allies, Risk, etc (dots for numbers), and so does he. Neither of us use the dice with numbers printed on them (1 - 6)
Guess I have rocking dice
OH and no I only rolled 6 times rolling 4D6 and dropped the lowest. Rolled on a piece of lamented wood. He rolled on a pathfinder book.
Just an observation
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I've had 41 point buys on 4d6 no rerolls, so 43 is very good, but far from abnormal (you'll see people claiming 60 point buys; I do get suspicious of this). Of course, I've also played the 17 point buy before when we rolled back in 3.0 / 3.5.
The reality is the discrepancy is insane; and my 41 point non-Mage character (dervish from 3.5) was outperforming the party mostly on the basis of his stats. A 40ish point character would be several CRs higher than a 15-point, so what do you do if both are in the same party?
I prefer the balance and ease of point buy by a good margin; though ironically I had more issue with my high point guy feeling too powerful than my having to shore up my low point buy character to keep up (I tended to get a lion's share of party treasure).
Note that a 15 pt buy makes MAD characters very hard to play, thus Pallys are even more nerfed, while Wizards are OK.
But the choice you gave is fair. A point buy is better all around- less table time taken for rolling PCs, and less power discrepancy between PCs. However, if a Player really wants to roll, and is willing to roll on the table in front of everyone, and take even average results (yes, a “unplayable” set of rolls should be allowed to default to point buy, but not re-roll), then OK.
I have a idea: Tier 1 (Wizards, clerics etc) = 15 pt buy
Tier 2= 17
Tier 3= 20
Tier 4= 21
Tier 5= 22
You have brought up many good points DrDeth. The 15 pt. buy arguably make some classes harder to play, which some players might not like so that's certainly something to consider.
I would imagine that when allowing for rerolls that the conditions allowing for a reroll should be stated before the rolling starts. If I remember correctly in D&D 3.5 there where 2 conditions for rerolls 1) if the highest score was 12 or less. 2) If the combined ability score modifiers was X or less, I forget the exact number (and may be wrong on the 12 in no 1).
The tier idea is very interesting, if the GM and PCs can all agree on what tier their characters fall under.
Right, the conditions would have to be set up front, but the Player would not get a re-roll, he’d default to point buy. Now, mind you, only for UNPLAYABLE. Thus a rolling player would have a good chance of getting a PC with stats below point buy, but not real cruddy unplayable.
The problem with rolling is if the Player gets really lucky. If he then plays a full spellcaster he simply dominates the game.
JaronK’s tier system is plastered all over the internet, it works fairly well, and there are updates for PF. Hmm, now you could go backwards on using it for Players that roll “OK, if you roll a 25 pt buy, you must play Tier 3 or lower….”
In Star Wars Saga Edition, you could re-roll if your combined ability modifiers were -1 or lower. You could use a similar rule as well.
My friends and I roll 4d6 take the highest three and re-roll ones. You get one re-roll and one switch use them wisely.
WOW Surbrus that is quite an inovative method of ability score generation. I'm glad that you've taken the time to share this with us all.
I remember taking average HP in D&D 3.5 now that you mention it and I always prefered to use that if I had the option.
@ DrDeth: Thanks for the additional info on JaronK’s tier system, I'll be sure to look into that more as well.
You could let all the players that like to roll, roll their stats.
Then you calculate the average points of those stats and give that number to the players that want to use point buy.
This way everyone should be about equally strong :3
Why not take a poll and see what the characters think? If one prefers one over the other, just make sure they roll it legit.
In other games, because I have been away from D&D since it was acquired WotC, I've let players roll thier stats. I had one cheater in a horror /sci fi game. She was married to a really nice guy, so you let it slide. EVERYONE in the party thought her character was a Termimator type cyborg spy. Consequently, she was hugely tough but died a messy death because everyone thought she was borg.
I'm not saying that will happen, just something to think about.
Personally, I like 4d6 but my stats haven't been much different than a 20 pt allocation. I would prefer a 25 pt allocation if I can roll 4d6.
I would require everyone to use the same method. If dice are involved, I would insist that I personally observe the rolls.
It isn't that I don't trust my friends, I just know that I, myself, would be tempted to re-roll if I got crappy scores. I doubt I'm unusual in that regard.
I vastly prefer 25 point buy, but then, none of us are "power gamers" and we aren't looking to squeeze out every advantage. We don't have any 7 charisma guys wandering around with us...
For me it usually yields an 18 in my primary stat and +1s in most everything else, maybe a +2 somewhere, and probably one stat at a 10. That just how I roll. (No pun intended)
The game I'm playing right now the DM had two methods we could use. Either roll 4d6 drop the lowest, then a 1d4 that you can distribute any way you want OR you can roll 3d8 with a max of 18.
I played a monk with a 20, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14. suffice it to say it was completely ridiculous. I also have a witch that has a 6 cha but everything else is 14 or higher.
Use the cards method! :D
It's random (if you want randomness) and fair (in that everyone has the same number of points, although not weighted).
Get a deck of cards and fetch cards 4-9 from two suits. Shuffle them and lay them out in six pairs face down.
Option one: Reveal one card from each pair before assigning to ability scores.
Option two: Assign to ability scores before revealing any cards.
Option three: Instead of random pairs, lay out six cards from 4-9 in the ability scores of your choice, then randomise the other six to make pairs.
The total of each pair gives you your scores, from 8-18.
Give them an array to use. We did this recently and I think it worked really well.
I've toyed with the idea of offering two or three arrays, one well balanced, one to suit MAD, one to suit min-maxed SAD, but I keep coming back to the idea of offering one array to use.
I would imagine that whatever ability score generation method used would work best if everyone used the same method, but would it be unwise to allow each PC to choose between standard and 20 pt. buy individually? Has anyone played in a game that did this and if so how did it turn out?
I had a DM who allowed us to roll or use a given point buy, and frankly, I didn't like it. It suffers from the same problem as just rolling, 1 character could be playing a HERO (with REALLY good stats), 1 playing a sidekick (barely acceptable stats) and the rest in the middle.
IMHO a slightly better way to include rolling (if you MUST include it) is to say, "Roll 4d6, drop lowest. If you have less than 20 point buy scores, you may raise them until you have a 20 pb array of scores." This gives less of a "you can choose to take a risk" feel and more of a "roll, but here is the minimum acceptable amount" feel.
Me, I would do point buy, arrays or a cards method (if I wanted some randomness) and ignore the dice.
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I personally alwas feel players should use the same method.
My gaming group uses 25 point buy but without dump stats allowed (obviously a racial modifier can take you below 10).
We prefer this over the 20 point buy with dump stats simply because for most classes you know Int and Cha will be dumped which means people having no social skills and fewer skills in general, given that we all like the RP aspect of the game it is nice to get decent stats without having poopy ones while at the same time ending up with less points to spend than a traditional 20 point buyer (who usually has 28 points with two 7 stats)
Course, we also did this method because we had a couple people new to RPing and wanted to ensure their chars would be fully capable of being involved in both RP and combat.
Give them an array to use. We did this recently and I think it worked really well.
I've toyed with the idea of offering two or three arrays, one well balanced, one to suit MAD, one to suit min-maxed SAD, but I keep coming back to the idea of offering one array to use.
This seems like a great way to help newer players, although I'm sure there's benifits for even experienced players as well. Now that you mention it arrays are one of the recomended ability score generation methods in D&D 4e.
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Biggest issue with dice is trying to balance things. Like take those rolls I put out; how do you avoid killing a 6 and 13 point character while challenging a 32 point character? Where do you set module levels? Do you modify the APs (assuming you are playing one), knowing it is made for 15 point characters?
Just too hard to handle balance for everything.
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I would imagine a 20pt buy would generate a higher avg abilities then the roll method. Not to mention it would allow people to get high scores in their primary stat always, with the roll method you may or may not get one 18.
If the player gets to make exactly six 4d6-drop rolls witnessed by the GM and with dice that aren't crooked, his odds of getting an 18 are only 11%.
4d6-drop "one pass" is equivalent to 13,12,12,12,12,12 -- or 13pt buy.
-- I.e., you're nuts to do it unless your GM is a softy who listens to you snivel and whine amd cry, and lets you reroll if your first roll comes out 13,10,9,9,8,4.
My advice is to tell your players to point-buy, and put your foot down -- and save everyone a lot of time and yourself headaches having to listen to whining. Point-buy prevents cheating, prevents the "high charisma" player from plying on your sympathy and prevents the stoic player from getting screwed, and prevents situations where one waaay lucky player starts with stats that are so freaking godlike than no other PC could equal them if they were leveled to 20th and had a bunch of Tomes and both a Belt and Headband of Physical Perfection.
In short, it's fair.
-- If this is a home-game, I would introduce one rule from D&D 3.5 PHB2: "Retraining", with a little extra generousness. Every level, everyone can switch/swap one non-anchor feat, trait, class feature, four skills points (in one skill), or nudge up/down one pair of stats not currently at minimum prerequisite for a retained feat/trait/whatever (unless a belt or handband keeps it legal). Let fighters retrain every level, and let it stack with your freebie retraining.
IMHO a slightly better way to include rolling (if you MUST include it) is to say, "Roll 4d6, drop lowest. If you have less than 20 point buy scores, you may raise them until you have a 20 pb array of scores."It's still crappy because the deviation between the best and worst is still going to run on the order of four to five "pips" -- which is like comparing the stats of a 1st and 20th-level character if one player gets the equivalent of five "free" stat levelings versus the others.
Give them an array to use. We did this recently and I think it worked really well.
The following are all superb 20pt arrays:
15,14,12,12,12,12
17,12,12,12,12,07
15,14,14,14,12,07
15,14,14,12,12,09
E.g., a CHA-based halfling paladin/multiclass taking the third array could be STR-12,DEX+17,CON:14,INT:12,WIS:07,CHA+16; he buys a Belt of Giant Strength, and is qualified for Power Attack with a polearm and can make use of an Oathbow, and also TWFs with light Agile kukris or Dervish Dances with a scimitar off a dawnflower bard dip.
The first array guarantees every stat can be over 14 depending upon race and either a headband or belt of perfection.
My gaming group uses 25 point buy but without dump stats allowed ... because for most classes you know Int and Cha will be dumped
Why is that a problem?
-- It's only telling me that your players are acclimated to hack-n-slash sans any use for skills points or Combat Expertise -- and if that's what you keep giving them, then why be annoyed?
(Oh...the things a halfling or gnome rogue or bard with a pocketful of loot to spend on UMD goodies can do that'd make a party of brainless, no-skills mix/maxers run away screaming like little girls. Mwahahaha.)
If you are going to use straight 4d6 drop the lowest you should lower the point buy. 4d6 I believe averages around 18points but also you have to consider that those rolling are taking a risk where as point buy isnt. I am actually offered something similar in my new campaign, where players could choose between 15 point buy, or 4d6 drop the lowest, or 2d6+6. Each had its positivies and negatives and the players were able to choose which they prefered.
2d6+6? that's the equivalent of a 55 point buy. I think I'd prefer that one.
If you are going to use straight 4d6 drop the lowest you should lower the point buy. 4d6 I believe averages around 18points but also you have to consider that those rolling are taking a risk where as point buy isnt. I am actually offered something similar in my new campaign, where players could choose between 15 point buy, or 4d6 drop the lowest, or 2d6+6. Each had its positivies and negatives and the players were able to choose which they prefered.2d6+6? that's the equivalent of a 55 point buy. I think I'd prefer that one.
Brain fart. I totally misread that.