Now, Pathfinder is generally set in the late medieval period. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that Pathfinder militaries follow IRL medieval patterns in structure, strategy, and tactics. However, that discounts the wide availability of magic in a typical Pathfinder setting. One would think that it would have far reaching effects on how militaries are structured and battles are fought. Precisely what those effects would be, however, is anyone's guess.
So, lets get to guessing.
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They devote a few pages to this in complete warrior (3.5). The topics there were invisibility/scrying/teleportation for reconnaissance. Use of monsters on the battlefield. Numerous low level clerics with wands of cure walking along behind the front line picking up fallen soldiers. etc. Giants are basically walking siege engines.
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Up to a point, heroic characters probably aren't 'cost-efficient' for large military operations. You can probably hire, feed and equip thousands of first or second level warriors for the price of a 10th level character, or thereabouts.
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I think a smart army would have to look like ww1. Troops have to be behind cover and spread out, because if you show your face you're a dead man from some sort of fireball.
A wand of fireballs is cost comperable to a man in full plate on a horse, so it makes those apprentice wizards kind of dangerous.
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I think a smart army would have to look like ww1. Troops have to be behind cover and spread out, because if you show your face you're a dead man from some sort of fireball.
A wand of fireballs is cost comperable to a man in full plate on a horse, so it makes those apprentice wizards kind of dangerous.
I get what you're trying to say, but how does a horse (300 gp) and a guy in full plate (1,500 gp) equal 11,250 gp?
You can't make wands below 50 charges.
I always run the fighting much more influenced by WW1 era tactics and strategies, or even more modern 'jungle insurgencies', but certainly not medieval.
PF conflicts have weapon systems we could only dream of in the modern age... so to go up against that using massed formation would be a bit of an (unthinkably) stupid move.
It's supposed to be medieval flavor + magic, not what medieval tech with magic would really be like.
Well, what medieval tech with magic would really be like is what this thread is about. Why? Because I think it'd be an interesting discussion.
Plus, maybe I want to have a campaign with what medieval tech with magic would really be like.
I have a thought. With all the flying stuff around, would it not behoove castles and fortresses to have some sort of roof? Perhaps stone? Or is that to heavy? Wood, then?
I think a smart army would have to look like ww1. Troops have to be behind cover and spread out, because if you show your face you're a dead man from some sort of fireball.
A wand of fireballs is cost comperable to a man in full plate on a horse, so it makes those apprentice wizards kind of dangerous.
I get what you're trying to say, but how does a horse (300 gp) and a guy in full plate (1,500 gp) equal 11,250 gp?
You can't make wands below 50 charges.
Don't make it a wand. A single use, use-activated item (Say, a bomb you throw. Grenades.) of fireball would only cost 750 gold. The country would be making them themselves, so half that (375 gold). Expensive, but you can make 4 for the cost of a single knights armor and horse. Each one capable of taking out a large number of soldiers. And unlike wands, anyone can use them. You have no idea if that soldier over there can decimate your entire squad until its too late.
Command word activated items of burning hands [short range flamethrowers] (1800 gp to buy, 900 to make)
command word activated items of magic missile [single-shot, 110 foot range rifles, automatically hits] (1800 gp to buy, 900 gp to make)
One hit is unlikely to kill, but most people would stop and drop to the ground if wounded. If a guy with a sword is faced with someone capable of taking out his entire squad (flamethrower), or capable of hitting hit without missing from over a 100 feet away, he isn't likely to stick around long.
I think a smart army would have to look like ww1. Troops have to be behind cover and spread out, because if you show your face you're a dead man from some sort of fireball.
A wand of fireballs is cost comperable to a man in full plate on a horse, so it makes those apprentice wizards kind of dangerous.
I get what you're trying to say, but how does a horse (300 gp) and a guy in full plate (1,500 gp) equal 11,250 gp?
You can't make wands below 50 charges.
Don't make it a wand. A single use, use-activated item (Say, a bomb you throw. Grenades.) of fireball would only cost 750 gold. The country would be making them themselves, so half that (375 gold). Expensive, but you can make 4 for the cost of a single knights armor and horse. Each one capable of taking out a large number of soldiers. And unlike wands, anyone can use them. You have no idea if that soldier over there can decimate your entire squad until its too late.
How do you think it would be countered? Zig zag trenches?
I think a smart army would have to look like ww1. Troops have to be behind cover and spread out, because if you show your face you're a dead man from some sort of fireball.
A wand of fireballs is cost comperable to a man in full plate on a horse, so it makes those apprentice wizards kind of dangerous.
I get what you're trying to say, but how does a horse (300 gp) and a guy in full plate (1,500 gp) equal 11,250 gp?
You can't make wands below 50 charges.
Don't make it a wand. A single use, use-activated item (Say, a bomb you throw. Grenades.) of fireball would only cost 750 gold.
*snip*
You mean like a necklace of fireballs?
Wizards are the easy part.
Castle walls vs. Froghemoth?
Castle owners will want to send local druids regular gifts. In fact, that is going to be the most significant change in castles. Castles will be designed to be environmentally conscious.
This leads to smaller populations with more skilled staff.
That makes sense. Nothing could change a battle like magic capable of altering the terrain and defenses, and nothing does that like a druid.
It doesn't just blow out at the higher levels involving armies, it blows out at the smaller unit level.
On a 10-30 man/side engagement it is out of whack, and thats with low level magic.
Fireballs, for example, funademtally change the structure of conflict... and those are 'early' spells.
Fireballs, for example, funademtally change the structure of conflict... and those are 'early' spells.
I agree that fireballs fundamentally change the conflict, but can you elaborate?
Not every npc in the army will be built like a PC. Just something to keep in mind. I'm guessing that an army would have more useful things to use a level 5 wizard than cranking out magic items.
And that wizard sure wouldn't stand for that.
Well my point is that in modern warfare troops tend to be rather spread out (spaced) so that area effect weapons don't go off and kill half of your formation.
A platoon of around 30 guys would basically fill up a space well over 100' wide and 200' long because a couple of grenades could ruin their day otherwise.
They dont have to stick close because their weapon ranges mean I can still reach out and touch the same target as my friends, even when we are spread out.
If I want to hit a cluster of enemy then I am probably using some form of explosive ordnance such as a launched grenade, or I can call in fire support for area damage from a mortar team. The hassle I have though is that one needs to strongly consider the position of their tropps on the ground, and allow significant margin for error... essentially these things are no longer available in close contact.
Now think of medieval warfare, close formations are the order of the day because weapon ranges are short and I rely on my friend to cover me in melee combat.
In the Pathfinder world, however, the weapons systems are almost the the level of high tech Sci-Fi.
A wizard can hang back over 400 feet away and launch a Fireball or Lightning bolt that with such surgical precision into a melee that will hit all the enemy opponents clashing against the friendly shield wall (or the edge of a fireball consume them) with absolute safety to team blue. Modern battle would require getting on the radio to call in a firemission, yet the PF small battle has the support fire standing right there that can resolve your support problem in under six seconds with complete accuracy.
They can launch magic missiles which unerringly will strike a target, no matter how well covered by a row of shields.... they can fire off scorching rays...
This is the low level stuff, it only gets whackier from there.
Oh and as to the 'massed archers taking out your wizard', pretty much can't and wont happen as not only will the plebs have a hard time hitting him on the best of days, but he has a windwall or other personal protective magic to just blow that right out.
So what does a PF army or even small unit formation look like? Nothing like a Medieval battle, not at all. Even orcs would spread right out at least 10' - 15' between each one on the advance.
I'd have to look at the massed archers, but once again 100 of them is going to take up an enormous footprint, or they'd already be decimated with a few AOE's dropped in their midst.
The other problem is tha the wizard could be anywhere, he looks just like any other soldier mingled in amongst the opposition force - he's not required to stand in a articular position, nor expose himself fully (indeed he can move from cover to cover if he wants to).
If you have 100 odd archers, odds are on that the guys you are shooting at have a couple of guys able to lob fireballs into you.
The Magic Missile (etc) would be spammed at key leaders to reduce morale and decision making, you'd never waste it on plebs.
For bigmegapartytime on a budget throwing Stonecalls into the enemy footprint will be devastating (40' radius!). Thats only a LEVEL 2 spell that will shred an enormous number of your plebs. That's pretty much mortar fire - with the advantage of a guaranteed hit on every individual in the radius, with high precision, rapid deployment, and little chance of detection.
No matter which way we look at it, troops need to spread right out or take significant losses.
For smaller (100 odd a side) engagements at the lower level, the whole shooting match could end in a couple of well placed minor spells (like Stone Call above).
Of course if I have a thousand dudes and some big hard hitting mages, they can just resort to crazy stuff at the high levels and make massed combat an even bigger joke.
Whats a pleb?
'A commoner'
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Why would the king hesitate between an army of expandable peasants paid basically nothing, along with a few even more expandable mercs paid not much, and even a single wand costing in the 10000 Gp ? Really ?
Medieval lords went to war sometimes just to curb the local demographics. A lot of dead is good.
But if the threat gets serious, then you need a team of PC-power bodyguards, and a few elite troops.
A 3rd level fireball will hit an area of 1256'.
A stone call will kill (or disable) 5026' of peasant army and is a second level spell.
A 5d6 fireball on a bunch of spearmen is a waste of economy, those 2nd level 2d6 Stone Calls are all the way...
Claymore?
The similarities are uncanny!
Except I can put it where I want and when I want, and with 100' precision accuracy.
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Most constructs are mindless, and afaik don't have the skill to make anything. Also the up front cost of a golum means you probably won't be getting your money back in your lifetime unless you're an elf.
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Most constructs are mindless, and afaik don't have the skill to make anything. Also the up front cost of a golum means you probably won't be getting your money back in your lifetime unless you're an elf.
Did you know that bacon costs more than an entire pig, according to 3e's AaEG?
Did you also know that you can get more than one unit of bacon per pig?
Do you see where this is going? Imma pig farmer!
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Obviously it depends on how prolific magic is in the world. If it is relatively common you might look to novels like Jim Butcher's Codex Alera for insperation. There roman style military tactics are combined with powerful elemental magic users.
Basically the rank and file troops are just there to provide protection and support for the powerful mages that do most of the damage (and have to rest after brief periods of serious destruction). The thing to remember is the element of scale. A wizard has only so many spells before he is tapped out, and an army that knows the enemy also has wizards wont want to tap their wizards out completely, so they will only impact the battle for relatively brief moments each. Assuming normal troops are more numerous, you are likely to see relatively normal mideval tactics with brief bouts of 'artillery' from the mages.
unless you can field whole armies of mages normal defences still are useful. 100 flying mages doesnt mean you still dont want to have a wall to stop the 10000 guys still walking or riding.
Now, Pathfinder is generally set in the late medieval period. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that Pathfinder militaries follow IRL medieval patterns in structure, strategy, and tactics. However, that discounts the wide availability of magic in a typical Pathfinder setting. One would think that it would have far reaching effects on how militaries are structured and battles are fought. Precisely what those effects would be, however, is anyone's guess.
So, lets get to guessing.
Perhaps not entirely on mark, tangential certainly, but it did remind me of a neat product I read a bit ago!
http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/d/4E/mongoose/v5748btpy83wz
4e has 3rd party stuff? Cool! I thought DDI killed that.
I presume this discussion is to use as mundane as possible of a castle to defend against a mostly mundane army with a few casters. Because let's face it, if a lone 20th level mage/cleric/druid wants your castle to fall it's going down, unless it has some hefty magical defense. Frankly at a that point it's become a magical arms race. So, with that in mind...
1)What is all this about having a bunch of flyers? Sure you'll have a few mid to high level PC types that can fly for a short time, but Lots of guys on the walls with arrows should deter most of that nonsense. Now you can have flying monsters, but some are more controllable than others. A Bound Balor for example is going to be badass, but difficult to summon/control. Giant eagles/bats on the other hand will be easier to control. Now an alchemist on an eagle dropping bombs from above arrow range (or mage with fireballs, or some other equivelant) is going to be pretty devestating. However, even then how many do they have in a day? How much will a fireball really damage stonework? Sure you could take out a bunch of guards if they're too stupid to take cover after the first few explode. Plus fireballs are 20' bursts. How big is this castle? I'm not saying a few flyers with bombs/fireballs/whatever aren't a good idea, but they have limits and are expensive. Firing a mundane trenchbucket with flaming pitch is more effective and cheaper.
2) Castles aren't modern buildings with heating and air. yes, you could accomlish all that with magic
If you put a roof over a castle (using magic to counter the physics issue) you limit the castle's functionality and have to make up for it in other ways. It'll be even damper and cavelike than normal. No plants will grow from lack of sunlight, etc etc etc.
Admitedly I'm not a castle engineer, but even so this strikes me as problematic. Perhaps just putting a roof over certain stragic places would be better. Then again if your enemy targets the supports of said roof it will come tumbling down onto your castle, which could leave you more vunerable than if you hadn't put one up in the first place.
In summary there are all kinds of things you can do with magic and many magical ways to counter this magic. However magic has it's limits not the least of which being the expense. A well build mundane castle can counter a lot of low-mid level magic. If an epic caster comes for your castle you better hope you have your own epic caster to defend/fortifiy the castle.
I'm really liking where this thread is going. Just to add in my opinion.
In the book Eragon and the other books in the Inheritance Cycle do a really good job explaining mass combat with magic (don't judge me since its not the crazy fantasy books you all read, the books are very well done).
Basically, since casting spells in that world drains your energy and can kill you, most mages don't just cast a bunch of spells. What the mages do rather is cast a huge amount of protection spells on the army to protect them from enemy spellcasters so they don't just wipe out the army. This would mean movable force fields and such to protect against those fireballs you're flinging. Then the mages stay within the armies ranks to recast any spell that's been countered or destroyed.
This means that the mages won't be using their fireballs.....just yet. Instead, a mages job in the army is 1) protective spells, 2) reapplying those protective spells and 3) hunting down and finding other spellcasters to kill them. Once all of the spellcasters (or at least a significant number of them) are down, spells can then be unwoven and the bad s&#@ can begin. And of course the bad s%~& happens before that, since we all know how surrounding things can be affected when two mages start slinging spells. Id imagine that wizards are used primarily to cast the protective spells and sorcerers are the ones the hunt the other spellcasters/counter spells.
Anything flying of course is at a huge disadvantage because the archers are gonna take you down due to orders of it from the generals because they are either 1) a mage, 2) something bad (like a dragon or something else) or 3) someone with the ability to fly so they can get a better position and reak havoc because they are powerful and can do such.
** spoiler omitted **
From what I gathered, 4e not only had some form of 3rd party products, but I -think- the odd exclusivity of being unable to produce for both 3.5 and also 4th edition products was removed from their new licensing agreement 'thing', allowing you to develop/release for any game systems how you wish! If true, good call on WotC's part!
To add more to the discussion (sort of), and I do not believe it has been posted yet, His Majesty's Dragon could also provide inspiration.
http://www.amazon.com/His-Majestys-Dragon-Temeraire-Book/dp/0345481283
Amazon blurb: Aerial combat brings a thrilling new dimension to the Napoleonic Wars as valiant warriors rise to Britain’s defense by taking to the skies . . . not aboard aircraft but atop the mighty backs of fighting dragons.
I think that's two product plugs out of me... I believe I'm at my quota for this thread!
I know that one 3rd party company is working on mass combat rules right now. Should be interesting to see how that unfolds.
http://www.amazon.com/His-Majestys-Dragon-Temeraire-Book/dp/0345481283
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I know that one 3rd party company is working on mass combat rules right now. Should be interesting to see how that unfolds.
there is a product already out. its called warpath, i own it, but we havent used it yet. it focuses on mass combat but also makes the players stand out as heroes in that mass combat.
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I make whatever setting assumptions I need to justify the continued existence of castles, etc.
If the area around the castle is swarmed with flying menaces, then enclosed keeps with roofs (or even fortified caverns or areas with overhangs, like Helm's Deep or Cappadocia or Pueblo cliff dwellings) would be more common. If the area has rampant stirge activity, or gargoyle populations, or whatever, that could be an issue. Chains, netting or buttresses could also interfere with the ability of larger flying creatures, like wyverns, to maneuver safely within attacking range of the defenders. Catapults that hurl hooked and barbed nets, designed to foul and entangle the wings of flying monsters, might also be popular (and, if they weigh hundreds of pounds, being made of weighted iron chain and hooks, might work pretty well on a flying wizard as well, dragging him out of the sky by sheer weight!).
Walls designed to keep out incorporeal creatures might also be an important theme (by building them thick enough to prevent an incorporeal creature from 5 ft. stepping through them, or using the 1st edition solutions of gorgon's blood mortar or living vines to prevent ethereal / astral tresspass). If a single CR 3 shadow can kill every single person in your castle over the course of an hour, you wasted a lot of time and money on that thing.
Holy water infused mortar might be a popular bit of equipment that PCs would rarely have need of, but be a staple of church and keep construction in areas that have an incorporeal undead presence. Presumably there would be some alchemical solutions to some seige-related problems as well, such as the fire-quenching alchemical solution smotherblend from one of the alchemy articles in the Dragon Compendium.
Other solutions to military magic could be as simple as taking advantage of cover and total cover rules (whether because defenders are firing through arrow slits and have improved cover, or because they have readied an action to huddle behind tower shields and have total cover).
Burrowing creatures add yet another dimension to the levels of protection a castle doesn't provide. Building a sewer and filling it with otyughs is the Korvosan solution, and an ossuary filled with uncontrolled skeletons is certainly another, but it's an avenue rarely explicitly considered, despite the ease of calling forth earth elementals or thoqqua or whatever.
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I think a major consideration in any war is who you can get to fight for you.
-Peasants: usually HAVE to show up as part of their oath of fealty. If they don't then you toss them off your land. If the peasants actually own land you can conscript them anyway by threatening the use of force. You probably don't even need to pay them more than food, but you have to get them back home by harvest time. or planting time.
-Knights: Are in the same feudal system but far more likely to want to fight, since its what they were raised for, and the whole feudal system seems a lot better when you're not at the level where the manure piles up. To get them to fight you have glory, honor, shame, the revokation of their land/privileges
-Priests: Probably varies a LOT by the individual religion. Chances are pretty good they have a clerical immunity to being conscripted, and since you need them to heal you after a battle when you need to challenge that immunity is probably the worst time to do so. Your ability to get them to fight for you probably depends largely on what you're fighting FOR. Trying to free the chelaxian slaves? The priests of Desna will be right there with you. Trying to take over some strategically important timberland? Not so much.
-Adventurers. Are expensive, unreliable, and unruly. They don't follow the chain of command, can switch sides when they get a better offer, and I've even heard some of them have moral problems with killing the people they're told to kill just because those other people are in different uniforms (or would be IF we could get the adventurers to wear uniforms)
But... if you need a specific target neutralized or a specific short term objective taken they can blast something apart like nothing else. Just don't rely on them as part of your strategy.
-Monsters: Unless you have good pre established relations its not going to happen. Calling on friends in times of war is rough, calling on strangers is neigh impossible. Large monsters are functionally tanks and can mow through infantry accordingly. If you can manage to hire/bribe/convince a decent sized dragon to join you its like having your own flying fortress: DR makes them neigh immune to peasant launched arrows, flight keeps them out of reach, and a breath weapon can incinerate masses of troops.
Wizards: Don't like to fight as a rule but are devastating if they do. Put them in peasant getup and hand them a pike , put them in formation and its like a mirror image x 20. Low level ones can use even high level wands, so long as you assign a rogue or other sneaky type to recover the wand when something happens to the wizard you shouldn't be out too much cash if the apprentice dies.