I love the way the module in the Beginner's Box Game Master's Guide is laid out. It's clear and easy to read, easy for a newbie/multi-system gm to understand what needs to happen in each room. I'd love to see this spin off into a series of Pathfinder beginner modules.
Maybe I'm the only one who'd buy a series like that, but I could see it being nice for GMs who are working their way up to more complicated products like the APs.
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I would love We Be Goblins in the style of the BB module.
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As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.
Maybe I'm the only one who'd buy a series like that, but I could see it being nice for GMs who are working their way up to more complicated products like the APs.
I can assure you, you're not the only one.
As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.
And I think I would be very interested. :-)
Chief Technical Officer
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As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.
You'll need to consider that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License says: "You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B" and the Beginner Box is not listed in Exhibit B.
This is deliberate. To be frank, we don't want to encourage our audience to split themselves into Core Rulebook players and Beginner Box players; we want to encourage most Beginner Box players to eventually move on to the Core Rulebook so that they can fully interact with our existing community, play in the Pathfinder Society, and expand their game with the hundreds of PFRPG products that are already out there.
Our own support for the Beginner Box will generally include stuff designed to ease the transition to the Core Rulebook; for example, the free Beginner Box GM Kit we're about to release has a section on how to use published low-level Pathfinder RPG adventures with the Beginner Box.
As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.You'll need to consider that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License says: "You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B" and the Beginner Box is not listed in Exhibit B.
This is deliberate. To be frank, we don't want to encourage our audience to split themselves into Core Rulebook players and Beginner Box players; we want to encourage most Beginner Box players to eventually move on to the Core Rulebook so that they can fully interact with our existing community, play in the Pathfinder Society, and expand their game with the hundreds of PFRPG products that are already out there.
Our own support for the Beginner Box will generally include stuff designed to ease the transition to the Core Rulebook; for example, the free Beginner Box GM Kit we're about to release has a section on how to use published low-level Pathfinder RPG adventures with the Beginner Box.
While all of that is true, all they really need to do is not reference parts of the rules that aren't also included in the Beginner's Box. I'm certain it will be easy enough to write short modules for levels 1-3 or so that are easily compatible with both the Beginner's Box and the Core rules. Then they just have to say "suitable for any beginning player of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game." Or something similar. Clark's a smart lawyer, I'm sure he'll figure it out.
Clark's a smart lawyer, I'm sure he'll figure it out.Oh, I'm aware... and I didn't say he couldn't do it; I just noted that he needed to consider that point.
True. I figured you pointed it out more for other potential publishers out there than Clark's specific benefit.
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Oh, I'm aware... and I didn't say he couldn't do it; I just noted that he needed to consider that point.
You are right, if the box doesnt go on the approved list of product references that may be very very tricky to do--it may be impossible. But I am sure going to think about it. And Vic, look for an email from me :)
As always, I love Paizo, and I want to work with them and respect their decisions. Whatever I do, I will do in friendship and partnership with them and I will respect their product vision and concerns.
Clark
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That sounds awesome. Whilst I am not really interested in Pathfinder as it stands, the Pathfinder Beginner Box looks very good. I would definitely be keen on seeing adventures that follow the format and agree with deinol that it is possible under the Compatibility Licence.
I also suspect there will be an opportunity for an Expert book add on, under the Compatibility Licence, that essentially takes levels 6 to 10 and even new classes and races and gives them the same treatment. Paizo understandably doesn't seem to be keen on the idea of a follow up, but I suspect that there are many people in a similar position to myself and a market to be exploited.
I'm with you. Pathfinder is way too "crunchy" for my tastes, though my players like it so I grit my teeth. I'd like Pathfinder far more if it scaled back on the crunch factor and made something more easy and streamlined. Like the Beginner Box, for example....
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I'm with you. Pathfinder is way too "crunchy" for my tastes, though my players like it so I grit my teeth. I'd like Pathfinder far more if it scaled back on the crunch factor and made something more easy and streamlined. Like the Beginner Box, for example....That sounds awesome. Whilst I am not really interested in Pathfinder as it stands, the Pathfinder Beginner Box looks very good. I would definitely be keen on seeing adventures that follow the format and agree with deinol that it is possible under the Compatibility Licence.
I also suspect there will be an opportunity for an Expert book add on, under the Compatibility Licence, that essentially takes levels 6 to 10 and even new classes and races and gives them the same treatment. Paizo understandably doesn't seem to be keen on the idea of a follow up, but I suspect that there are many people in a similar position to myself and a market to be exploited.
What is "crunchy" about it? How much easier do you want Pathfinder to be? Sure, there are a bunch of books and a lot of rules, but the system itself is pretty darn easy in my opinion. I've been playing RPGs for about 7 years and I only started because my husband played. I'll admit that I have only read the rules as they relate to characters I've created and played. I leave lots of the logistics to the other players at the table who have been playing longer. But the system is easy. Even one of the ladies in our Legacy of Fire campaign figured it out within months (playing every other week) and has enjoyed it every since. I don't see how it's crunchy at all.
And correct me if I'm wrong Paizo staff, but the entire point of the Beginner Box is to give people who have never really played or GMed the change to in a simple environment so they can get a taste, decide if they like it, and then move on to the APs and/or PFS. The BB should only be supported as a way to help beginners start and move on, not an entirely different RPG. New mods can be written here and there in order to attract more beginners, but not to keep people in the BB system.
The BB looks really cool and is extremely well done. It's a beautiful product. I'm not sure I'll actually play in it since I'm not a beginner, but I sure wouldn't mind using it for the sake of some of my friends who look at me strange when I tell them I game and they have no idea what I'm talking about. Running them through the BB would be a great way to explain myself and to perhaps hook them on playing. The real juicy fun in gaming is in the APs and PFS.
Well, it was how they had done the layout to the adventure published in the BBGMG that I had liked and wanted to see more of. Each encounter is a single page, with a compressed stat block, map, treasure and room features. I think it's the layout of the map and stat block that appeals to me most, after comparing it to a recent AP.
Well, it was how they had done the layout to the adventure published in the BBGMG that I had liked and wanted to see more of. Each encounter is a single page, with a compressed stat block, map, treasure and room features. I think it's the layout of the map and stat block that appeals to me most, after comparing it to a recent AP.
Ah, but that kind of formatting comes at a cost: space. If they tried that in an AP, people would complain because the APs might only make it up to 10-12th level since there would be far fewer encounters per page.
But a few more level 1-3 modules would be nice. I think there have only been two or three since Pathfinder's release.
This is deliberate. To be frank, we don't want to encourage our audience to split themselves into Core Rulebook players and Beginner Box players; we want to encourage most Beginner Box players to eventually move on to the Core Rulebook so that they can fully interact with our existing community, play in the Pathfinder Society, and expand their game with the hundreds of PFRPG products that are already out there.
Our own support for the Beginner Box will generally include stuff designed to ease the transition to the Core Rulebook; for example, the free Beginner Box GM Kit we're about to release has a section on how to use published low-level Pathfinder RPG adventures with the Beginner Box.
I think the OP is more concerned about the style and format of the adventure then the actual rules used. One thing I have definately noticed about the AP's and modules I have bought from paizo recently are that they do rely on the dm to know and remember alot more then the published adventures I have used in the past. This has obvious benefits, like leaving more room for improvisation and avoiding some of the railroading other published adventures can have, but it also means a higher degree of skill and understanding on the part of the dm in shaping a story.
From what I understand the adventure in the beginner box sort of spoon feeds the dm (and thus the party) more then is typical for a paizo adventure. I think what the OP is looking for is adventures that sort of bridge the gap between the bigginner box and the real rules. That are laid out and organized in the style of the beginner box, but could use the full ruleset as presented in the Core Rules.
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Creative Director
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Well, it was how they had done the layout to the adventure published in the BBGMG that I had liked and wanted to see more of. Each encounter is a single page, with a compressed stat block, map, treasure and room features. I think it's the layout of the map and stat block that appeals to me most, after comparing it to a recent AP.Ah, but that kind of formatting comes at a cost: space. If they tried that in an AP, people would complain because the APs might only make it up to 10-12th level since there would be far fewer encounters per page.
But a few more level 1-3 modules would be nice. I think there have only been two or three since Pathfinder's release.
I actually suspect that APs would only make it to about 6th to 8th level if we used this format. Further... while it makes the adventures easy to run... I'm not so sure it makes them easier and more fun to read. And keeping adventures fun to read is very important to me.
I'd LOVE to hear feedback about the two styles of adventures SPECIFICALLY from a "how fun are they to just read?" viewpoint.
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I actually suspect that APs would only make it to about 6th to 8th level if we used this format. Further... while it makes the adventures easy to run... I'm not so sure it makes them easier and more fun to read. And keeping adventures fun to read is very important to me.I'd LOVE to hear feedback about the two styles of adventures SPECIFICALLY from a "how fun are they to just read?" viewpoint.
Once I get my hardcopy (shipping today) I will let you know
I actually suspect that APs would only make it to about 6th to 8th level if we used this format. Further... while it makes the adventures easy to run... I'm not so sure it makes them easier and more fun to read. And keeping adventures fun to read is very important to me.I'd LOVE to hear feedback about the two styles of adventures SPECIFICALLY from a "how fun are they to just read?" viewpoint.
I realize that there are quite a few people who buy adventures that they may or may not ever actually run just to read them, and that I imagine drives up adventure sales. But if paizo is really committed to bringing people into the hobby (which invariably has to include helping new gms get situated), shouldnt it be ok for a few adventures to be less fun as a pure read and easier to run?
I have been dming since junior high off and on, and I still have difficulty at times keeping everything in order when running paizo APs and modules. Certainly the same level of profficiency cant be expected of people who are just making the jump from beginner box to core rules right?
I think you will agree with me that good adventures are a key in keeping an rpg thriving. I really think beginner dms would benefit hugely from something like this. Given that will ultimately draw their whole group into the game as a whole dont you think that some lost sales of the adventure as pure reading material would be well worth it?
Think about those kids you playtested the beginner box with, who had never played an rpg before and had so much fun with it. Now imagine a today you bring them back to the officeafter they played a dozen games with the beginner box itching for more. How well do you think things would go if you handed them a core rulebook and the first volume of council of theives or kingmaker and told them to get to it?
DMing will always be the hardest part of playing this game. It will always be the choke point. Good dms are such a rare and precious resource, we should be taking pains to cultivate more. Those of us who have been at it for years are getting older, we wont be here forever new dms need a bridge into the world we love so much, and I really think such a product is just as needed if not MORE needed then the beginner box.
The beginner box is great for wetting their appetite and getting them interested. But the only way they will keep comming back is if their DM's are successful at running the 'next' adventure. And sure 'in our day' we did it without as much help and figured it out through trial and error. But in an age where every child has more entertainment options in their pocket (literally) then I had access to in the entirety of my child hood, do you think they will have the patience for all the muddling around in the dark we did when we grabed hold of our first players handbook?
I'm not asking for APs to be posted in that format, I agree that would really slow them down. The Maps in the APs I've attempted to run in the past have always been a bit of a problem, switching back and forth between the description and the room layout. Maybe I need to get a Map folio, I'd just like it if there was an easier way to subscribe to those, so they'd come with the AP, but without the other stuff. However, that's somewhat a separate issue.
What I was thinking was that a few lower level adventures with this format would be great for DMs who are trying to learn, or relearn the game.
I know that when I'm coming back from playing Shadowrun, or from a exam enforced gaming hiatus, it takes me a while to relearn all the little details again. The style of the module in the BBGMG seems like it would facilitate that, and it would also help with people who are trying to get a grasp of the mechanics of the game in a gameplay sense.
When trying to get newbies into the system, the biggest issue I've had is helping them understand what options they have without overwhelming them. For me, the biggest thing that makes tabletop gaming special besides real human interaction, is not being limited to only a few actions in a given space. That's the big difference for me, between board games with friends and tabletop with friends, the freedom to make our own decisions, and it's been hard to teach that to newbies, who tend to assume we're doing things because we've read somewhere that we can do specific things and are thus intimidated.
It's possible I've just been playing too many board games lately, each with their own set of rules and instructions, but I found the BBGMG really easy to read and if there were a few others in that vein, I'd buy and read them, maybe even run them. And that's in addition to my existing AP subscription, which I enjoy reading and fully intend to run, eventually.
I'm not asking for APs to be posted in that format, I agree that would really slow them down. The Maps in the APs I've attempted to run in the past have always been a bit of a problem, switching back and forth between the description and the room layout. Maybe I need to get a Map folio, I'd just like it if there was an easier way to subscribe to those, so they'd come with the AP, but without the other stuff. However, that's somewhat a separate issue.
Actually, let me correct myself, the recent APs have better maps and they look great, aside from my inability to get the layers working properly. I hadn't been looking at the Jade Regent maps, because that's an AP I hadn't intended to run, though after reading Master of Devils, I admit it's much more likely than it had been before.
The beginner box is great for wetting their appetite and getting them interested. But the only way they will keep comming back is if their DM's are successful at running the 'next' adventure. And sure 'in our day' we did it without as much help and figured it out through trial and error. But in an age where every child has more entertainment options in their pocket (literally) then I had access to in the entirety of my child hood, do you think they will have the patience for all the muddling around in the dark we did when we grabed hold of our first players handbook?
Back in my day, an entire encounter looked like this:
GUARD ROOM: 4 hobgoblins (AC 5 due to chain mail, HD 1 +1, hp 5 each, #AT 1, D 1-8, Save F 1, ML 8), each with 2d6 electrum, silver, and copper pieces. They are alert for danger, and when notified, they will pass the word to areas 29., 30., and/or 27., as required. The room is rather bare, having only 2 pallets, a stool, and a large water barrel.
The game has certainly gotten more complex over the years.
As it is, I'm sending a copy of the Beginner's Box to my 8 year-old niece and 6 year-old nephew for Christmas. We'll see how they handle it.
On the other hand, my nephew can beat me at Dominion, so I think they'll do fine.
FWIW I am pretty sure I am not alone on this. As anecdotal evidence, on an internet forum poll, 75% of pollsters want to see PF Beginner Box be expanded into a full line. This includes a majority of those who are also fans of the full Pathfinder system.
Your not looking at both sides of the coin.
If the PF Beginner Box gets it's own line,
then that means doubling the load on the staff for content and or eating room in future products to be compatible with both.
If you want streamlined decisions and actions look at Hick's Law, it states that the more options there are the more time it takes.
True this means more can enjoy a simpler version of the system and have it's base grow and be supported.
If PF Beginner Box is only allowed as a stepping stone into the main core,
then all content is open, not duplicated for a separate version, and our AP's modules and other books will not have space eaten to accommodate another version.
Everyone is on the same page, Paizo does not have to worry about catering to 2 groups instead of one group.
Look at what happened in the past;
I hope your right on the amount of compatibility between the two versions,
it would be like two birds with one stone for some of the products of the Pathfinder system.
And I do agree with your earlier comment
I run for a variety of groups and many do not like Pathfinder as it stands due to how crunchy they perceive it.
It does appear number heavy to people new to the game.
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I'm a gamer. I'm also 44. I am married and have a daughter. I've been playing D&D since I was 10. Yes, that's 34 years now.
I have long wanted a good way to get my daughter into gaming. She's interested. But the recent WotC Red Box reissue (which I thought would be cool) was totally lame.
Paizo's Beginner Box, though, looks like just the ticket.
Our hobby has always needed a good way to get new players in, and as the intro rules get more and more complex, that becomes harder and harder. Heck, CORE Pathfinder is way more complex than AD&D ever was. So the more hard core the main rules get, the more sense it makes to have a beginner's product.
Bottom line: My daughter is getting this under the tree this Christmas.
Let the unicorn adventures begin!
DMing will always be the hardest part of playing this game. It will always be the choke point. Good dms are such a rare and precious resource, we should be taking...
I say instead of "lowering" everything down to the lowest common denominator, let's help new players to raise themselves up. People will learn by doing the same way we all did. I think Paizo has struck a good balance with the Beginner Box.
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I'm a gamer. I'm also 44. I am married and have a daughter. I've been playing D&D since I was 10. Yes, that's 34 years now.
I have long wanted a good way to get my daughter into gaming. She's interested. But the recent WotC Red Box reissue (which I thought would be cool) was totally lame.
Paizo's Beginner Box, though, looks like just the ticket.
Our hobby has always needed a good way to get new players in, and as the intro rules get more and more complex, that becomes harder and harder. Heck, CORE Pathfinder is way more complex than AD&D ever was. So the more hard core the main rules get, the more sense it makes to have a beginner's product.
Bottom line: My daughter is getting this under the tree this Christmas.
Let the unicorn adventures begin!
Ponyfinder.
Luckily with my daughter she will want a sword and to be able to kick butt but she will also want a unicorn to ride or to have as a pet or friend. That is a huge factor that table top gaming doesnt do well that many modern gamers have come to really enjoy--the pet, or sidekick.
Luckily with my daughter she will want a sword and to be able to kick butt but she will also want a unicorn to ride or to have as a pet or friend. That is a huge factor that table top gaming doesnt do well that many modern gamers have come to really enjoy--the pet, or sidekick.
Ponyfinder.
Excellent! I approve. :D
I similarly look forward to the house Hobbit opening hers on Christmas day.
I already have that feeling of slight curiosity about whether she will have the same sense of wonder and awe as she cracks the lid on the box the same way I did on my D&D box almost thirty years ago.
Bottom line: My daughter is getting this under the tree this Christmas.I have two daughters, not quite at gaming age. I have my eyes on the box set for the same reason.
My stepson is getting this, especially after he asked me last week, "how old do you have to be to play?"
He's 10, a little young for the target demographic. But he already can kick me and his mom all over in both Ticket to Ride and Carcassone, so he has the raw ability. Plus, his 19-year-old sister already plays. :-)
My kid is 11, and she's been hassling to be able to play so hopefully we are fostering the next gen of gamers.
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The BB is perfect for an introduction to children. Our youngest is 4 and she likes to sit down at our Legacy of Fire game with a bag of dice and say, "I want to play." I'd happily have Mike or our 16 year old son try to run her through it (GMing is not for Mom.) This will be the prefect Christmas present for kids wanting to game and I am excited to see a product that can interest kids and educate a new generation of gaming geeks.
But that said, the BB is VERY simple. I've played with PF rules for 3-4 years now and there is a lot there and the Core Rulebook can be terrifying, but I haven't needed to read it all. As far as I know, there is plenty of discretion in using the system and if you wanted to you could limit what is valid in your games. There are spells and even classes that Mike refuses to allow at his table.
I completely understand your points. It's just that the BB is so narrowed down that I truly believe people would get bored with the limits eventually. If a simpler system is what you want, then why not "dumb-down" the normal PF system to fit your needs at your table under your circumstances?
While more products at Paizo can mean more profits, the staff is pretty darn busy as it is keeping up with what they have. Bless their hearts.
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What I think needs to happen is some more output from Paizo that "ramps up" to the full Core Rules. "Intermediate" materials, if you will.
I'm thinking of the following as "intermediate" items:
1. "Graduating from the BB to the Full Rules" material. When Pathfinder was released, there was a PDF for how people could transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder. What I'm thinking of is based off the same idea, but would be somewhat more extensive.
First, there would be a brief summary of the main differences: combat maneuvers, attacks of opportunity, skills not included in the BB, etc.
Second, these subsystems would be given more treatment and new/young GMs can incorporate them into their campaigns as optional additions. Each rule subsystem could be an "add on" to the rules. They would be both a "reading guide" to the Core Rulebook with page references to the CRB, but also include illustrative examples, with accompanying math, that show how a charge is resolved by the GM, or how an attack of opportunity is resolved, etc., etc. In fact, if these are available on the Paizo site, they can be useful to new GMs who start with the Core Rulebook who want to see the different rule subsystems play out in actual examples.
2. Some ADVENTURES that build upon the "lessons" built into the BB's GMG. There are other aspects of simply how to run a game that are useful for GMs to know. For examples, when the characters approach a door, how do you determine whether the monster behind the door hear them approach? How do you resolve a rogue trying to backstab a sleeping ogre?
My first GMing experience (and tabletop roleplaying experience period) was running my friends through Crypt of the Everflame. That module is a good one for new GMs in that it's straightforward to run compared to other Paizo modules, but I STILL had questions. For example
As for publishing entire APs in a "Beginner Box style," that isn't necessary. I think that such a treatment is only necessary in modules that are explicitly trying to focus more on teaching new GMs. This necessarily means mostly for new low-level adventures.
If there is going to be an anniversary edition of Rise of the Runelords, I think that having some more handholding in that volume would be important to have as well. For one, the prospect of running players through a WHOLE TOWN with lots of possibilities is pretty daunting to me, let alone to a young teen who is brand new to GMing. I also am not quite sure simply how to run a typical day in town: "Where are you going to sleep tonight? What do you today?" etc., and when and how to spring "events" on PCs...
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This is deliberate. To be frank, we don't want to encourage our audience to split themselves into Core Rulebook players and Beginner Box players; we want to encourage most Beginner Box players to eventually move on to the Core Rulebook so that they can fully interact with our existing community, play in the Pathfinder Society, and expand their game with the hundreds of PFRPG products that are already out there.Our own support for the Beginner Box will generally include stuff designed to ease the transition to the Core Rulebook; for example, the free Beginner Box GM Kit we're about to release has a section on how to use published low-level Pathfinder RPG adventures with the Beginner Box.
Does this same preference apply to fan content as well as for-dollars content? I was pretty excited about writing up some stuff for the new GMs to use, but this statement makes me less so. As in, if you don't want (or think the new players need) my help, then I suppose I'll save the effort...
As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.You'll need to consider that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License says: "You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B" and the Beginner Box is not listed in Exhibit B.
This is deliberate. To be frank, we don't want to encourage our audience to split themselves into Core Rulebook players and Beginner Box players; we want to encourage most Beginner Box players to eventually move on to the Core Rulebook so that they can fully interact with our existing community, play in the Pathfinder Society, and expand their game with the hundreds of PFRPG products that are already out there.
Our own support for the Beginner Box will generally include stuff designed to ease the transition to the Core Rulebook; for example, the free Beginner Box GM Kit we're about to release has a section on how to use published low-level Pathfinder RPG adventures with the Beginner Box.
Yes please don't split the publishing down the middle. Beginner's Box should be a tool, not a new system. I intend to use it to pad BEGINNERS getting into Pathfinder core, not as a substitute.
DMing will always be the hardest part of playing this game. It will always be the choke point. Good dms are such a rare and precious resource, we should be taking...I say instead of "lowering" everything down to the lowest common denominator, let's help new players to raise themselves up. People will learn by doing the same way we all did. I think Paizo has struck a good balance with the Beginner Box.
This is absolute truth. The problem is everything in society is becoming dumbed down. Wait, I meant more ACCESSIBLE. the lowest common denominator is where the money is at.
I am pretty sure though that Paizo is not going in that direction. With that said the Core Rules could be organized better.
There are plenty of rules light systems out there. I have no problem with them. The problem occurs when a rules system works really well, and than it is made simpler ('accessible' if you will) because some people want it to be simpler. The assumption is, NO BODY rules for things.
I like complex and robust rules for PAthfinder. If I want to play a rules system that is light, I will play one, but I would not demand a particular rules set gets more robust because I want to play a particular game and don't like it NOW.