Skywaker's page

This one is made of metal: http://legrumph.org/VP/D%26D5-CharacterSheetLG.pdf

So so good.

If Paizo has calculated that the loss of customers like me (after we simply purchase the BB) is preferable to potential profits lost by producing additional BB-style products, then that's fine. I'm cool with that. But they've lost my custom, at least

I think this bears repeating. No one expects Paizo to do something that in not profitable.

What I hope to see is Paizo explore the possibility further to see what profit there might be here, rather than taking the approach adopted by some posters that "Beginner Box 2 = Splitting the Line = Bad" is some kind of undisputable fact.

If you're willing to wait a few months, I'm sure there'll be some third party publisher producing supplementary "Beginner Box Plus" products soon enough.

I am sure too. But isn't that more reason for Paizo to do this themselves? You have a group of customers that Paizo can try and feed into their main line products like APs and setting books OR you can let a 3PP take them away into their line and loose them.

Is it really that much work to go through the CRB and remove anything you don't like? Seriously, it'd probably take you an hour or two to copy the relevant stuff into Word.

Leaving aside the accuracy of an hour or two, I think the answer is yes in the market that RPGs are currently competing in. Handing someone a 600 page book and telling them to learn the rules and then edit their own game from it themselves is not an attractive option.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting two lines. I have seen suggestions for two entry points into the same line, if as Paizo says its bread and butter is its setting and APs.

To all those folks clamoring for more BB content in order to run APs, why not just run the first three parts of the APs ignoring the rules you don't like?

Examples with spoilers below:

council of thieves ** spoiler omitted **

kingmaker ** spoiler omitted **

Serpent's Skull ** spoiler omitted **

Carrion Crown ** spoiler omitted **

Jade Regent ** spoiler omitted **

That is the halfway point we have got to, but being able to play an entire AP is much more attractive to me and profitable for Paizo.

FWIW in most cases it's the first two parts.

That would be my guess too. Plus it runs directly counter to Vic's point above - providing a direct competitor to the AP line is unlikely to boost AP subscriptions, which seems so central to their success. Even if net subscribers went up, if the AP numbers drop significantly the cost per unit will necessarily go up.

So Paizo want people to jump into their APs. At the moment, they can:

1. Pathfinder Beginner Box > Core Rulebook > APs
OR
2. Core Rulebook > APs

Does this mean that if it were possible, Paizo would be keen to see a Beginner Box line if it allowed people to leap straight the APs?

3. Pathfinder Beginner Box > APs

I honestly don't see the mechanical issue of creating a Pathfinder Beginner Box that is compatible with its APs (and even its setting and bestiaries). Sure its a challenge, but its not an insurmountable one. The Pathfinder Beginner Box has already figured out the path needed. Sure, you end up with something needing a little work to make it fully usable with APs and modules but quite a few people seem happy to do that little extra work to have a ruleset more closely matching their tastes.

If the APs and setting are the bread and butter for Paizo and its mechanics a gateway, surely making that gateway as wide as possible is in Paizo's benefit?

It's not just about coding the second box. Hard decisions need to be made on thing such as modules, adventure paths, which assume the full Core Rules set and possibly more. a Beginner Box with no sequel will seqgue you into the Core Rules Set. A Beginner Box 2 essentially makes it into a new product line and the support issues begin. If you can't cope with the full rules set by the time you're running 5th level characters, you might has well just say you're running an E5 game.

I have no doubt that a Beginner Box 2 would be a challenge. Beginner Box 1 was also a challenge. Paizo managed to find a way to overcome that challenge and I have faith that they can do it again with a Beginner Box 2 too.

You can do a Beginner Box 2 that not only feeds into the main line like Paizo wants, but also brings even more people into that main line. Beginner Box 1 already shows the way by creating a compatible edited ruleset. Sure, its not 100% compatible with Pathfinder modules and APs, but there is only a little effort to make it work. This is all it needs to do.

Paizo have said that they consider their setting and APs to be their bread and butter. The want a Beginner Box to feed these and not detract from them. However, the biggest hurdle for many people into buying those is the full rule system. A Beginner Box 2 could cater for that different taste in mechanics and have more people buying its APs and setting books.

Everyone wins, if its done right.

If Paizo don't do it, there is more risk IMO. If a 3PP decides to cater to that crowd (or WotC) then Paizo will loose the opportunity to capture them on its own terms and in a way that is most beneficial to it. If it does see the mechanics as just the gateway to the rest of its publications then making that gateway as wide as possible but still leading to the place they want, has got to be the best way forward.

FWIW I would love to see more products in the Beginner Box style. I have expressed this in other forums and posts. There certainly seems to be quite a number of people with like minds.

I don't think that's going to happen

I believe Paizo have stated a few times
That they will not do a BB2 or expand
the BB any farther.

Given that its an OGL system, it could be done by a third party rather than Paizo. There are already a number of rumours of such products in the works given the interest such a product has.

The biggest hurdle I see is going to be matching Paizo's production values, though I think an expansion book would be a viable idea.

You can also purchase that right here on paizo.com.

Nice one.

0one Games has also just released Fangs from the Past which is designed for use with the Beginner Box only. It follows the same formatting for monsters, refers only to BB material etc:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=97151

Looks very cool.

Pathfinder Beginner Box was a runner up Best Introductory Hobby Gaming Gift in MTV's Holiday Gift Guide: MTV's Holiday Gift Guide

0one Games just released Fangs from the Past which is designed for use with the Beginner Box:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=97151

Looks very cool, uses the same notation as the BB and comes with pawns etc too.

I have that but I like PF basic better. BFRPG doesn't have the streamlined mechanics of PF or a skill system.

FWIW Tombs & Terrors does :) http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=84759&.

However, I agree with you. Given the extensive wealth of Paizo support out there already and their amazing presentation, a simpler Paizo created entry point would be preferable.

Like I said, I'm not ruling it out (not that I'm the one who makes decisions about these things), but it's a risky proposition.

Cheers. I appreciate it being a tricky matter for Paizo and your comments have been more than fair. You will appreciate that I just really want to see this idea explored fully :)

In other words: We know there is a potentially big market for an intro product, we don't know how much of a market there is for a 6-10 product, especially when said product largely comes down to "ignore AOOs, ignore combat maneuvers," at which point I'm wondering why you don't just use the core rules and ignore those parts of the came, rather than needing a specific product that rewrites the game to ignore those rules.

Some other stuff that could be revisited or removed in such a product:

- magic crafting
- iterative attacks
- prestige classes
- higher level spells
- higher level feats

In addition, seeing the changes made in the PFBB carried out into those levels would itself be a helpful product.

I know its been posed as a response here before, but I don't find the "just ignore it" idea to be very compelling. This sort of thing is why RPGs are such an esoteric experience for so many people when they first experience it and why RPGers are hard getting harder for new people to enter.

How a game is presented is important, more so now than it ever has been before. New people to RPGing buy a product and expect that product's presentation to match the play experience. This is for many reasons but mostly due to other forms of entertainment taking prominence over RPGs. Telling this people just to "ignore bits", especially from the designer who has just received money from that person to provide them with a game, doesn't go down very well IME. This is even more so if that person doesn't have an experienced RPGer on hand who has that "DIY" attitude that most experienced RPGers take for granted.

That's cannibalizing the core PF sales. If someone's just buying the "basic" products, they're not buying things like the APG, Bestiaries, and so on.

This depends a lot on how the product is done. I agree that it would see people bypass the hard cover player books like APG and the Ultimate series. But if designed correctly, it would see people buy adventures, setting books and bestiaries. You also have to factor in that a chunk of these additional sales may not have been generated without that additional expansion.

I guess a lot depends on getting a balance of these factors just right, which is in its own way an incentive on Paizo to look at doing it before someone else does.

Is the Beginner Box a simpler version of the rules than the Core Rulebook? Certainly. But even where the BB rules are the same as the CR rules, I believe the BB explains things more clearly than the CR--because I rewrote it to be so. I'm sure you could easily add other Core Rulebook rules into BB play if they were rewritten for clarity. And I'm sure, if that happened, people would be ok with using those rules and wouldn't feel the game is too complex.

This was raised by Monte Cook recently in his Legends and Lore article. It is possible to express the same rules at different levels of complexity, especially when you cover every edge case and exception.

D20 at its heart is a simple core rule system. However, for one reason or another, it strives to express with clarity every edge cases and exceptions on the basis that players will just ignore the stuff they don't like. However, many people want their rulebook to match how they prefer to game. This is one way gaming including RPGing has changed in recent times.

The PF BB does this admirably. It also leaves out complex subsystems like crafting and combat maneuvres. The result is that you have a simpler expression of the same RPG rather than a simpler version of the same RPG.

This is the primary reason I think that an expansion of the PF BB would not be a repeat of issues of the Basic D&D/Advanced D&D route. PF BB is mostly compatible with CR, its just expressed and edited differently. You get two entry points into the same line of products, not two seperate lines.

Removed innappropriate post and responses replying to it.

Like.

Some of this discussion and theorizing, while interesting, is preemptive. Paizo's gonna eat the results if a Beginner Box 2 doesn't turn out well, and so they won't have the luxury we have and will not decide anything without looking at some hard date, such as: the Beginner Box's sales, the response of young people, whether there are constant stories of 14-year-olds starting with the Beginner Box and moving on to the Core Rulebook but not making sense out of it, etc., etc.

FWIW I wholeheartedly agree. I don't expect Paizo to jump the gun with this. Its a tricky decision.

What I do hope is that Paizo haven't closed the door of the matter, which was intimated by posts on these forums.

The same goes for any 3PP thinking of the same.

Challenge accepted. If someone on the boards can give me the exact word count for the Hero's Handbook, I'll attempt a write-up of levels 6 to 10 in that many words or less. (I can start once I've picked up my BBox from my FLGS.)

Awesome :)

You have 160 pages to play with. You will need to cover high level monsters and magic items and an adventure suitable for that level. i think that would probably take up the 64 page book, leaving you with 96 pages.

You don't need to cover races, classes up to level 5 and related feats and spells, combat or skills.

For iterative attacks, I am not sure that they would need to be removed. At their most basic, they are simply additional attacks requiring a full round action and could be added as an Advanced Combat Option.

What I was kind of trying to point out is what your arguments would need to overcome; Paizo has a very specific goal with the BB. Adding a BB 2 into the mix has very serious business considerations for them

No doubt. I also have no doubt that Paizo knew that the PF BB would generate this exact discussion. Erik and Sean have at least alluded to it already, even if Vic is running a harder line on the point.

There is more that can be done in this design space. I don't expect Paizo to do anything it considers not profitable, but that doesn't mean that there is no way for this design space to be exploited.

I think they've given a number of other reasons, including actually wanting people to move on to Pathfinder RPG, not wanting to split the product line and thereby the fan base,trying to keep PF Society focused on PFRG, etc.

That's cool. Ultimately, Paizo will make their own call on this. I am just trying to present reasons why Paizo may want to look again at this opportunity.

But if they don't, fair enough. I hope this is picked up by a 3PP as I think there is an opportunity here going begging.

The resources in terms of manpower to do this correctly, which is the only way Paizo would want to do it, would be pretty draining on the design staff. And really, what does an "intermediate" box do for Paizo? Do you think it would help to accomplish the stated goal of the beginner box, which is to draw new players in, show them the basics of the game in a limitted, attractive (graphically), easy to understand counterpoint to the PF Core Rulebook's more obtuse presentation, while encouraging them to "graduate" to the core rules when they've started craving more by remaining completely compatable to the core?

No, but I think it will bring in new fans into Pathfinder that will buy existing products from the full line such as Adventures, Modules, Setting, and Bestiaries, whilst at the same time starving competitors of probably the primary point of distinction.

Its anecdotal only, by an RPGnet poll shows that there is about an 80% increase in fans interested in the PF BB approach. Whilst that is on the high side, even a 10% or 20% increase in the fan base is significant and will increase Paizo's resources. Saying that it can't be done due to manpower is a self fulfilling prophecy.

I mean, I look at the BB and see: ads on the sides of the box, an ad on page 63 of the Hero's Handbook, an ad on pg 96 of the Game Master's Guide, and a full color double sided ad sheet on the bottom of the box. Oh, then you come here to download the ad-on pdfs and get 4 more pages of ads, all for Pathfinder. Seems like there's an intent there.

Sure. The PF BB fulfills that goal. But that doesn't mean it can't fulfill more than one goal. So whilst it already provides a lead in to the full system, there is also a group of potential customers who may be brought in to a majority of Paizo's products if the PF BB got a little more support. Surely that's worth some exploration and discussion.

And there's a reason we stopped where we did: after 5th level, things start getting *much* more complicated. Multiple attacks. Lots of people flying. Spells that can't be communicated in four lines of text. I'm pretty confident that we *couldn't* cover levels 6 through 10 in the same space; I think even covering 6 through 8 in that page count would be a challenge.

I have no doubt it would be a challenge, but that alone seems like a weak reason for rejecting the product.

The thing with a second product is that you don't have to replicate all the material already provided in the PF BB. So, equipment, ability scores, races, combat and skills all give up extra pages for these more complex issues.

Also, the GM book gets a lot slimmer too as you don't need to repeat the GM advice. I could see the Player book becoming 96 pages and the GM book becoming 64 pages in a second set. That's a lot of extra space inside the same sized product.

When it comes to a level 6+ beginner product, the elephant in the room is iterative attacks.

Are iterative attacks just a combat option that can be neglected in the name of simplicity? Or are they so fundamentally important to the math of the system that it's impossible to remove them without throwing all the numbers off at higher level? And, if the latter is the case, would it be possible to replace iterative attacks with some sort of simple, Vital Strike mechanic while still claiming compatibility with the full game?

That, to me, is the big sticking point when it comes to higher-level beginner content.

Good point. Paizo have shown the ability to design around this kind of issue, with the likes of Attacks of Opportunity being removed from the PFBB. I am confident that they could do in this case too.

A second Beginner Box covering levels 6-10 essentially does become a separate line.

Sure. But by that criteria, the PF Beginner Box is already a seperate line.

The point being made is that by "seperate line" it doesn't mean that every product need be duplicated. A majority of Pathfinder products could remain valid for those using PF BB or PF Full, such as modules, adventure paths, bestiaries and setting material. This means that the fears of splitting the customer base are much reduced.

Paizo has already shown with the PF Beginner Box that the base rules of Pathfinder can be simplified without very much loss in compatibility by simply editing the choices available and presenting the rules material in a more user friendly fashion.

Why do I want this? Here's the thing. I'm trying to GM a group of teenagers who grew up on video games where you don't read a manual, ever. You learn the rules as you play and generally you don't ever read any rules, ever. I've GM'd several games (about a dozen or so I think) with the same group of teenagers.

FWIW I run RPGs at a local high school too. I have run various RPGs for them (they love RPGing) and to be honest Pathfinder sunk like a stone.

I don't quite agree with Dwilimir that they will never read a manual but with so many options out there for them, PF's full presentation and size doesn't even make it a contender.

In comparison, PF BB would work very well IMO but the issue remains that I can't use my other Pathfinder products fully with such as Adventure Paths.

There are a number of problems with that approach. First, right out of the gate, the maximum potential audience for this theoretical box 2 is, by definition, a subset of the audience for box 1, and box 3 would have an even smaller audience, and so on. For some products, that might be ok, but in order to hit the price point we have on the BB, we're taking a much slimmer margin than usual, and that makes it very hard to justify doing something similar that we know will be less successful.

Also, dividing our audience into several different groups that each understand different subsets of the rules may not be the wisest move, as a fractured audience is harder to support.

Ultimately, it's in our best interest to get people who have outgrown the Beginner Box to transition to the full Pathfinder RPG as soon as possible.

But that's assuming that the PFBB doesn't bring in new fans that grows that initial set. Its only anecdotal but the RPGnet poll shows an 80% increase in fans i.e. people not interested in PF Full but would be interested in a second PF BB and who may well buy more PF Full products like adventures, setting and bestiaries if such further support was given.

It also assumes that a second PF box would fracture a line, when even Paizo have already shown with the PF BB that this need not be the case. A second PF BB is not a seperate line. Its just one product that may open up the rest of your line to new customers.

You also have to weigh up the fact that PF's competitors (including D&D) will probably use simplicty as their biggest distinguishing feature and what would happen if a 3PP made such a product that wasn't as compatible with the rest of Paizo's full PF line.

Ultimately, I think the conclusion you have reached here needs more thought.

In terms of the price point, that is a very valid point. I would not expect a second PF Box to be at the same low price for the reasons you stated.

I'm pleased to announce that 0one Games have such product on schedule for November 24.

The line is called "Basic Paths". It will be an all-stars product with module written by none other than Tito Leati, full-color artwork by Roberto Pitturru and maps (must I say that?) by 0one Games.

More details to come...

Awesome.

Guys, guys, the box isn't even officially out, yet. As with everything we do, we'll listen to what people think of the product and make decisions based on that. We are nervous about splitting the audience and want to get people playing the "full" version of Pathfinder after exploring the Beginner Box, but our ears are always open, and you're definitely posting where the decision makers are hanging out and waiting to listen for feedback, so let's see what happens...

My apologies, Erik. Just blame it on enthusiasm for the great product you made :) I think this is the tip of an iceberg for a group of D&D fans that are looking for something professionally produced, supported, modern_ yet_simple. They have been waiting for this for a while, hence the reaction.

Thanks for the calming comments :)

I'm a Pathfinder fan. I have all of the hard cover books, several adventure paths, etc. But THIS is the game that I want. A more focused, easy-to-reference, faster and leaner version of PF. The way monsters are presented is far more appealing to me than the existing Bestiaries. The truncated spell descriptions. The more focused choices. Better all around for me.

I really hope Paizo reconsiders their position not to develop this further. I can't speak for others, but an Intermediate Box detailing levels 6-10 and adding four more classes would be an instant sale for me. Moreover, it wouldn't stop me from purchasing the "advanced" PF books either. The fact that this set is selling well to established PF players would indicate to me that there is a market for more. I'm not advocating a massive line, but a few more products would be sweet.

If not, I hope a 3rd party takes it up.

I am pretty sure, you are not alone. Though only anecdotal, a poll of 100 people over at RPG.net has the following results:

1. 75% of those interested in the Pathfinder Beginner Box want to see it expanded.

2. A majority of Pathfinder fans want to see the Pathfinder Beginner Box expanded.

3. If Pathfinder Beginner Box were expanded then this would increase Paizo's customer base for those products by about 80%.

I think everyone is well aware of the line splitting issues that Paizo are concerned about, but the PFBB doesn't do that as it simply edits down the full system. As such, Paizo have already solved the hard part of the problem. Its a shame that they don't exploit this more to get the full benefit of what they have achieved.

Also, PF and 3.5 are much closer than BECMI and AD&D were. Class=race vs. class=!race is one big ravine, and there are several others.

Also, PFBB and PF are even closer. PFBB is really just an edited version of PF which is great as it means that all the PF adventures are pretty much compatible, as recognised by Paizo in the GM add on for the PFBB.

There are plenty of rules light systems out there. I have no problem with them. The problem occurs when a rules system works really well, and than it is made simpler ('accessible' if you will) because some people want it to be simpler. The assumption is, NO BODY rules for things.

I like complex and robust rules for PAthfinder. If I want to play a rules system that is light, I will play one, but I would not demand a particular rules set gets more robust because I want to play a particular game and don't like it NOW.

There are a lot of good rules light systems. Though there are very few good, modern D&D RPGs with Pathfinders support though.

Fortunately, as said above, this is not a "PF BB or PF full" situation. PF Full continues untouched. If Paizo or some one develops further support for the PF BB then we all win, even Paizo.

I think that is what makes the design of the PF BB inspired. It remains pretty much compatible with PF. So the main impact will be for PF Fulll gains a whole new audience for many of its products, along with Paizo or a 3PP having some new successful products.

In fact I think that is probably one of the greatest incentives for Paizo to expand the PFBB, rather than leaving to a 3PP. That way they can ensure compatibility remains and not risk someone splitting the fan base in an undesirable way.

There's no reason why you shouldn't create new content suitable for the Beginner Box! One of the reasons the GM Kit has the section on using PF materials is because we don't have any supplemental material for the Beginner Box. If other people want to pro-publish or fan-publish to support that niche, go for it!

Thanks for the understanding. I am really glad Paizo made the PFBB and its design looks inspired. You have definitely succeeded here as I plan to use a lot of additional PF product with it.

I do still hope that someone will support the niche further and expand it so that I can more readily use even more PF content. :)

I completely understand your points. It's just that the BB is so narrowed down that I truly believe people would get bored with the limits eventually. If a simpler system is what you want, then why not "dumb-down" the normal PF system to fit your needs at your table under your circumstances?

While more products at Paizo can mean more profits, the staff is pretty darn busy as it is keeping up with what they have. Bless their hearts.

Sure I could dumb down PF, but I would also be happy to pay for a professional designer to do it as it would save me a considerable amount of work and effort. That's my point. The very fact that PF BB has such interest is a testament that there is a market in having this done by professional designers and not by fans.

Plus there is a significant presentation issue. Being able to bring a couple of slim attractive books to the table are a much easier sell than a wad of pages of a Word document or a 600 page hard cover book with assurances that not all of it is needed.

As for Paizo, it would cool if they would do it, but I agree that between their greater concern of the PF brand and the fact they are so busy probably makes them unlikely. As said, Pathfinder is an OGL system this opportunity is open for anyone who sees there is a customer base for it (which I think there is).

Gods no. Just no. :p

I think you underestimate just how winsome, persuasive and obstinate a young girl can be when RPing :)

Ponyfinder.

Awesome :)

I say instead of "lowering" everything down to the lowest common denominator, let's help new players to raise themselves up. People will learn by doing the same way we all did. I think Paizo has struck a good balance with the Beginner Box.

People's preferences can be for a lighter system for a number of valid reasons. These people can be capable of learning complex systems. These people can be experiences and sophisticated gamers. To use my own example, I have two young children, a hectic job, and a diverse group of people I game with. PF in full is just too time consuming for me in most situations given where my life is at.

Having a preference for a lighter system is not being the lowest common denominator that needs to be "raised up". Its a preference that is as valid as any other. I think there are people who would enjoy the core of what PF has to offer if it were only presented in the same manner as the PF BB. Many of these will not want to be "raised up" to the full system, though they may buy a considerable number of existing PF resources like adventures, maps, minis etc if the PFBB were expanded on.

As said, I think it is totally valid for Paizo (or any 3PP who want to take it on) to weigh up what is in it for them to cater to this crowd. So I am not criticising Paizo for the approach taken (in fact I applaud it). I am just posing that I personally suspect that there is a lot for someone to gain.

Bottom line: My daughter is getting this under the tree this Christmas.

I have two daughters, not quite at gaming age. I have my eyes on the box set for the same reason.

It does appear number heavy to people new to the game.

Even Paizo admits that one of the reasons for the PFBB is for people who find the idea of a 600+ page rulebook upfront intimidating. I guess the real question is whether 5 levels of play will change that perception. My experiences suggest that it won't for a good chunk of people and that's a currently untapped market for product.

As said, anecdotally that internet poll is showing as many fans of PF interested in the PFBB as there are people interested in the PFBB who are not interested in PF full line. That's a 100% increase in interest.

Your not looking at both sides of the coin.

I am. I understand the dangers that Paizo is concerned with and the historical issues with Basic and Advanced D&D. There is a weighing up of fans gained against the split of that fan base. Paizo have already opened up this pandora's box though and I think they have already shown the way through this, hence my comment about being sensible.

From what we have seen the Pathfinder Beginner Box is compatible with the wider Pathfinder range. For example, I think that for the most part, you could pick up a Pathfinder module and run it with the PF BB. A few parts would be missing (like certain skill checks, spells and monster abilities) but they would not be significant as most of the primary engine is the same.

In other words, rather than alter the system, Paizo has focussed on representing it more simply and avoiding the more complex areas of the system. I think that this approach could be extended beyond the PFBB and avoid much of the historical split issues of the past.

In any case, even if Paizo didn't do it, which I respect, the OGL nature of the Pathfinder system makes it possible for 3PPs to do this. My hope is that someone will look to create products that build on the PFBB approach and allow the PFBB to be the base system, even if such products do not do so explicitly. I think there will be a significant new market for such products as there are people interested in the PF BB but not full Pathfinder.

What is "crunchy" about it? How much easier do you want Pathfinder to be?

If you are asking that first question, then I doubt that I can give you an answer that will satisfy you.

For the second question, I want it to be as easy as in the Pathfinder Beginner Box.

FWIW I understand Pathfinder system well but would like something more streamlined. I run for a variety of groups and many do not like Pathfinder as it stands due to how crunchy they perceive it.

I think the idea of the BB being expanded doesn't take away from the full system (which I also use), yet it expands the audience of Paizo's products. I think its dangerous to see this is a PF or PFBB issue. I think there is a real benefit for having both full realised. I think that if Paizo sensibly expands the BB then they would sell more Paizo products as well, especially adventures, as there is enough compatibility between the Beginner Box and the full system.

FWIW I am pretty sure I am not alone on this. As anecdotal evidence, on an internet forum poll, 75% of pollsters want to see PF Beginner Box be expanded into a full line. This includes a majority of those who are also fans of the full Pathfinder system.

As we speak, the Legendary Games Design Team is talking about good ways to support the Beginner's Box with Legendary encounters and short adventures. I think that would be fun.

That sounds awesome. Whilst I am not really interested in Pathfinder as it stands, the Pathfinder Beginner Box looks very good. I would definitely be keen on seeing adventures that follow the format and agree with deinol that it is possible under the Compatibility Licence.

I also suspect there will be an opportunity for an Expert book add on, under the Compatibility Licence, that essentially takes levels 6 to 10 and even new classes and races and gives them the same treatment. Paizo understandably doesn't seem to be keen on the idea of a follow up, but I suspect that there are many people in a similar position to myself and a market to be exploited.

Goodman Games has made a recent post on the success of D&D4e here:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=2532 4#p25324

Its a good read. Not definitive, but more convincing than most evidence.