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I am currently working on a Wizard build which uses Scorching Ray as the go to spell. Before I get the "Wizards shouldn't focus on damage" he will have options to summon , buff/debuff, or battlefield control as well but is a battle caster and focuses on direct damage. In addition his ability to AoE is not diminished and with a rod of lesser Selective Spell he is quite effective with a Fireball every so often.
He will have a composite longbow as his bonded item to use as a backup weapon. This is an elven warrior who focuses on magic, but fits in perfectly with a troupe of archers. He does not lead (lacking the force of will to be effective at it) and seeks to blend his skills with those of his more martial allies. His knowledge makes him an excellent adviser in social situations and his mix of magical and combat prowess along with his knowledge of creatures and tactics makes him superbly useful in the field as well. He does not rely on divination preferring to live in the present and abhors illusions as "anything less than 100% real is 100% useless to me".
Now to my question; I am currently building with Arcane Strike and Weapon Specialization with the intent of adding the extra damage to Scorching Ray. These will add damage, but for Scorching Ray there are multiple Rays. The current rule is a ray is considered a weapon. Scorching Ray allows me to gain additional ray attacks which are like iterative attacks but better(which is where the rub comes in). I feel the extra damage should be applied per ray , but perhaps this is my inner munchkin talking. I am sensitive to balance (I DM quite often as well as play) and after a long progression of this character the damage potential seems close to what my napkin math says a 2h fighter should expect without my build surpassing the fighter. So, with the extra damage per ray, the damage is reasonable to the level I expect from secondary damage dealers. However, I would like either a more direct ruling or some RAW support for (or against) my assertion that the extra damage is per ray.
I will include some build details below and some light analysis of my own damage potential for those who wish to compare damage potentials.
Elf Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight x
School: Admixture
Opposition: Illusion and Divination
Arcane Bond: mwk Composite(+0) Longbow
Traits:
Magical Knack - +2 CL up to max HD
Resilient - +1 Fort save
Stats: (20 point buy)
STR 10
DEX 14 +2
CON 14 -2
INT 16 +2
WIS 10
CHA 7
All of my level bumps go to Int for bonus spells, skills, higher knowledge checks, and more uses of my admixture ability.
Feats:
1 - Point Blank Shot
3 - Precise Shot
5 - Arcane Strike
5+ - Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6* - Weapon Focus(Ray)
7 - Augment Summoning
7& - Rapid Shot
9 - Empower Spell
11 - Weapon Specialization(Ray)
11* - Point Blank Master
13 - Quicken Spell
15 - Improved Precise Shot
+ Wizard Bonus Feat
* Fighter Bonus Feat
& Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat
The damage per ray would be 4d6+Arcane Strike+Weapon Specialization. I also gain an additional 2 damage to one ray from my school power.
I can swap the energy type of Scorching Ray 7 times per day at 1st level. By 11th level I should be around 10 uses per day. If I use the elven favored class bonus I can use my Admixture ability to swap damage types 15 times per day at 11th level.
At 11th level my damage for a Scorching Ray is 3*(4d6+5) + 2 which is an average of 59 damage.
With Empower Spell the damage is 4*(4d6+5) + 2 which is an average of 78 damage.
With a Rod of Lesser Quicken I can get off an extra non-empowered Scorching Ray and with a Rod of Quicken (which blows the budget) I can get off an extra empowered Scorching Ray. These napkin-math numbers assume that I am hitting with everything which is flawed, but gets a general sense of damage potential.
NOTE - I am using 11th level since this is the point I gain my 3rd ray from Scorching Ray. At higher levels I will be able to utilize more quickened spells to maintain more consistent increased damage. At lower levels my damage scales back reasonably due to less rays per spell cast and the inability to use quicken. My higher level slots will remain used for summons and control spells at high level play(15+) with my lower level slots filled out with a reliable and versatile direct damage spell.
There is a FAQ on spells like scorching ray used with sneak attack. The spell is considered a single attack, and thus you only get the bonus damage once. I see no reason why weapon spec and arcane strike wouldn't work the same.
From the FAQ
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
—Jason Bulmahn, 05/31/11 Back to Top
There is a FAQ on spells like scorching ray used with sneak attack. The spell is considered a single attack, and thus you only get the bonus damage once...
I would interpret this the same way. Only one ray gets the additional damage. However, if your GM wanted to allow it, I can't see it breaking the game to get it on each ray FOR THIS SPELL. If you tried to use it that way for all spells it could get out of hand pretty quickly. Ex 3.x had a force ray that you got another (I think) every other level. So you would quickly have a much bigger effect for that spell than for scorching ray.
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There is a FAQ on spells like scorching ray used with sneak attack. The spell is considered a single attack, and thus you only get the bonus damage once. I see no reason why weapon spec and arcane strike wouldn't work the same.
This FAQ deals with precision damage which has separate rules from damage such as Weapon Specialization. For example, Weapon Specialization is multiplied on a succesful Crit, but precision damage such as sneak attack damage is not multiplied. I am going to say this clarification could be applied to my build, but there is still some wiggle room for my build to avoid the nerf bat (or balance bat depending on your side of the fence). I understand if we want to stick with a solid "No" to avoid potential creep from later spells and class abilities, but I don't feel the current application is over powered and the potential for creep is minimal.
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There is a FAQ on spells like scorching ray used with sneak attack. The spell is considered a single attack, and thus you only get the bonus damage once. I see no reason why weapon spec and arcane strike wouldn't work the same.
From the FAQ
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Btw, this is only a FAQ on the Surprise Spells class feature. The Surprise Spells class feature works on any spells that deal damage. It is limited to sneak attack damage once per round, but the Surprise Spells class feature is not used by spells that roll to hit for damage.
Regular sneak attack can apply to each weapon attack of a round.
And since Rays are treated as weapons...
Your argument is better than mine, and I am feeling more secure going with adding it per ray.
There is a FAQ on spells like scorching ray used with sneak attack. The spell is considered a single attack, and thus you only get the bonus damage once. I see no reason why weapon spec and arcane strike wouldn't work the same.
From the FAQ
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Btw, this is only a FAQ on the Surprise Spells class feature. The Surprise Spells class feature works on any spells that deal damage. It is limited to sneak attack damage once per round, but the Surprise Spells class feature is not used by spells that roll to hit for damage.
Regular sneak attack can apply to each weapon attack of a round.
And since Rays are treated as weapons...
You are also conflating a standard action with a full round action.
Yes, a rogue gets sneak attack on every attack they make in a full attack action.
LEts look at the differences between a rogue making a full attack, and a wizard casting scorshing ray shall we?
Full round action vs standard action
Iterative attacks have lower chance to hit vs all attacks have the same to chance hit
normal attack vs touch attack
A full attack by a rogue is a completely different beast from a wizard casting spells.
You can discount the FAQ all you want, but it sets the precedent that each spell counts as a single attack. Magic Missle generates up to 5 missles, but sneak attack only happens once. I still see no reason why Scorching Ray would work any different.
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*Quotes omitted*
You are also conflating a standard action with a full round action.
Yes, a rogue gets sneak attack on every attack they make in a full attack action.
LEts look at the differences between a rogue making a full attack, and a wizard casting scorshing ray shall we?
Full round action vs standard action
Iterative attacks have lower chance to hit vs all attacks have the same to chance hit
normal attack vs touch attackA full attack by a rogue is a completely different beast from a wizard casting spells.
You can discount the FAQ all you want, but it sets the precedent that each spell counts as a single attack. Magic Missle generates up to 5 missles, but sneak attack only happens once. I still...
The damage difference between sneak attack and strength/weapon spec/arcane strike type bonuses also needs to be considered. The reason sneak attack is not multiplied on a crit is that the x4 weapons end up with 20-30d6 extra, but the strength type bonuses will be much more conservative. Precision type damage has precedence in being applied to multiple rays, but I do not believe the precedence needs to be applied to the damage from Weapon Specialization and Arcane Strike. I believe that per ray is balanced and the current rules leave me room to interpret this way and still be RAW.
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The damage difference between sneak attack and strength/weapon spec/arcane strike type bonuses also needs to be considered. The reason sneak attack is not multiplied on a crit is that the x4 weapons end up with 20-30d6 extra, but the strength type bonuses will be much more conservative. Precision type damage has precedence in being applied to multiple rays, but I do not believe the precedence needs to be applied to the damage from Weapon Specialization and Arcane Strike. I believe that per ray is balanced and the current rules leave me room to interpret this way and still be RAW.
Extra damage per attack is extra damage, precision or otherwise.
You can get 6 scorching rays(SR + quickened SR) off at level 11 and still have a move action left over. All of those rays hit at full BAB + dex + bonuses vs touch AC.
A level 11 fighter with two-weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and greater two-weapon fighting gets 6 attacks, and only have a swift action + 5 foot step left over. 2 attacks are at full BAB + bonuses, 2 are at BAB -5, and 2 are at BAB -10. All attacks are against normal AC.
So for 1 feat, you already get as many attacks as a fighter of the same level who has invested 3 feats into getting extra attacks. As a bonus, your attacks hit at full BAB while two-thirds of his attacks hit at a penalty. You hit vs touch AC, while he hits at normal AC. You have a move action, while he has to use a full attack. The base damage on your attacks is higher(4d6 vs 1d4). And somehow, you think it is perfectly ok and balanced to get another +4 to +9 damage added to all your attacks?
Normally, a standard action only gives you 1 attack. Scorching Ray is a standard action(or swift with quicken spell). It counts as a single attack.
The Difference:
A level 9 Arcane Trickster can sneak attack with a Scorching Ray using normal sneak attack rules, but cannot sneak attack with Magic Missile.
A level 10 Arcane Trickster can sneak attack with a Scorching Ray using normal sneak attack rules, and can sneak attack with Magic Missiile using Surprise Spells.
The precedent is that you only get sneak attack once with a single magic missle spell, no matter how many missles you get.
Based on that precedent, that level 9 arcane trickster only gets their sneak attack once with the scorching ray.
If you want more precedent, here is some evoker loving.
Intense Spells (Su)
Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This bonus damage is not increased by Empower Spell or similar effects. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever you cast an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
I know of no place in the rules where it states that any damage bonus is given to all bolts/rays/etc of a spell.
The closest thing in the draconic bloodlike where it specifically states that you get +1 damage per dice.
Lets toss aside weapon spec and arcane strike for a moment.
Level 11 half-orc Red or Gold Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.
Choose the Half-orc alternate favored class bonus for sorcerer.
Trait Magical Lineage(Scorching Ray)
Weapon Focus(Ray), Quicken Spell, Empower Spell
So, all fire spells get +1 damage per dice, and all fire spells get +5 damage.
All of your rays will hit on 6 + dex vs touch AC
Empowered Scorching Ray, 3 bolts for 4d6 + 4 * 1.5 each, with +5 added to the total damage. 86 damage total. Uses a level 4 spell slot thanks to Magical Lineage.
Quicken Scorching Ray, 3 bolts for 4d6 + 4, with +5 added to the total damage. 59 total damage. Uses a level 5 spell slot thanks to magical lineage.
You are looking at 145 damage, if everything hits, not counting criticals.
For reference, a level 10 fighter does about 65 damage per round.
The precedent is that you only get sneak attack once with a single magic missle spell, no matter how many missles you get.
Based on that precedent, that level 9 arcane trickster only gets their sneak attack once with the scorching ray.
You could just as easily say "The precedent is that you apply sneak attack damage to every creature hit by your fireball. Based on that precedent, you apply sneak attack to every creature hit by your scorching ray."
It's not really related.
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage"
Rays are treated as weapons, and each ray requires an attack roll. Bless affects each ray, inspire courage affects each ray, why wouldn't sneak attack affect each ray?
Incidentally, from before the FAQ:
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "I'd rule scorching ray would do additional sneak attack damage per ray" (In a thread about Surprise Spells, not clear if he meant with SS or just with SA)
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "I'd rule scorching ray would do additional sneak attack damage per ray" (In a thread about Surprise Spells, not clear if he meant with SS or just with SA)
That is his personal ruling. I think he makes it pretty clear it is not official.
Also, in reading that thread, you get a lot more precedent for the damage only adds once per spell. See warmage in 3.5.
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You can get 6 scorching rays(SR + quickened SR) off at level 11 and still have a move action left over. All of those rays hit at full BAB + dex + bonuses vs touch AC.
It is more accurate to say I will get 6 Scorching Rays off per round 3 times per day and then 3 Scorching Rays for (effectively) the rest of the day.
A two handed Fighter will at 12th level receives three attacks per round. The damage will be 2d6(Greatsword)+9(STR)+4(Weapon Spec)+4(Weapon Training w/ Gloves of Dueling)+9(Power Attack)+3(Weapon Enhancement) for a total of 36 average damage per attack. If the fighter hits with all of his attacks this is 96 average damage per round(ignoring crits which work in the favor of the fighter). If I assume that the fighter misses one attack on average I am left with the fighter doing an expected 72 average damage.
My build will put out 4 rays (empowered) for 4d6+5 per ray plus an additional 2 to one ray. If we assume all of my rays hit the average damage per round is 78. Once we factor in crits and have our fighter use a more effective weapon the fighter should pull ahead. As he levels his STR, weapon enhancement, and weapon training will continue to advance and the only further increase I will see is around 15th level quicken becomes reliable increasing my damage significantly.
At 16th level the fighter now has 2d6+12+4+6+15+4+1d6(I added flaming) for a total average of 51.5 and he has an additional attack. Now our fighter should see an average of 154.5 not factoring in crits. The wizard should have an expected damage output of 139 not factoring crits. No longer can I consider situations where I burst up to massive damage because quicken is assumed in my base damage now.
To bring another facet to the damage comparison Fireball at 12th level has a potential damage of 10d6+5 for my wizard. This averages out to 40 damage and some portion of the targets will only take 20 damage. I need to hit 4 targets who all make their save in order to get better damage from a non-Empowered and non-Maximized Fireball than from my Empowered, Weapon Spec'd, Arcane Striked Scorching Ray. When I consider Quicken Spell, Fireball breaks ahead sooner. At 16th level my AoE should be doing at least 15d6+8 and I should be able to quicken at least a 10d6+8 Fireball giving me an average of 103.5 per round we will say 51.75 for those making the save. I need 3 targets who all make their save to put out more damage.
The damage just does not seem out of balance and I have not seen a strong case to say this should not be allowed per RAW.
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A two handed Fighter will at 12th level receives three attacks per round. The damage will be 2d6(Greatsword)+9(STR)+4(Weapon Spec)+4(Weapon Training w/ Gloves of Dueling)+9(Power Attack)+3(Weapon Enhancement) for a total of 36 average damage per attack.
You can get 6 scorching rays(SR + quickened SR) off at level 11 and still have a move action left over. All of those rays hit at full BAB + dex + bonuses vs touch AC.Just to support your statement, the 2 weapon fighter will do more than that once the archetype is considered and we haven't even gotten to buffs. With my standard load by round 3 my 11th level Bardiche fighter is inflicting 2d8+36 and the same buffs would only bring you up to 4d6+8.
If you wanted to abuse, you should have gone with lengthy acid waves that are ray attacks.
The point I am trying to make is that to really surpass the damage potential of a damage focus class such as Fighter. I need to be doing 5-6 ray attacks per spell and I do not know of any options to do this. There is always room for someone to add this game-breaker spell to the later spell levels, but if it is too late in the spell levels it won't work with the necessary meta magic to be game breaking. Your example of buffs makes this even more apparent. In addition, though it is not considered in the math here, the Scorching Ray user will actually "cap" on his to hit chance much easier than the Fighter with iterative attacks and the buffs which increase to hit will start tipping the scales further.
He will have a composite longbow as his bonded item to use as a backup weapon.
So... he will suffer from the non-wielded bonded weapon concentration check on every spell with a somatic component (like Scorching Ray)? Because wielding a composite longbow is a 2 handed affair.
Remember, bonded weapons aren't just a cheap way to get a masterwork item... they need to be worn or wielded.
He will have a composite longbow as his bonded item to use as a backup weapon.So... he will suffer from the non-wielded bonded weapon concentration check on every spell with a somatic component (like Scorching Ray)? Because wielding a composite longbow is a 2 handed affair.
Remember, bonded weapons aren't just a cheap way to get a masterwork item... they need to be worn or wielded.
Haha- I didn't even think about the 'wielded' restriction making any arcane bonded item that's a two handed weapons. Technically you wouldn't be able to just hold the item in one hand and then cast. Means the poor wizard that picks to bond a staff gimps himself.
Anyway, I don't know how valid these balance arguments are comparing a wizard to a fighter. Saying it can't be right because a wizard using metamagic and several feats can get firepower higher than an equivalent fighter seems... appropriate. Wizard uses a lot of resources, while the fighter can swing his weapons infinitely unless the GM rules his arms get tired after the hundredth mook.
Not 100% if it's right, but I'd say every ray's attack roll on a spell should be treated like its own weapon. So point blank would apply to both rays if you used scorching ray at level 7, but it couldn't apply to magic missile, nor telekinesis.
The point I am trying to make is that to really surpass the damage potential of a damage focus class such as Fighter. I need to be doing 5-6 ray attacks per spell and I do not know of any options to do this. There is always room for someone to add this game-breaker spell to the later spell levels, but if it is too late in the spell levels it won't work with the necessary meta magic to be game breaking. Your example of buffs makes this even more apparent. In addition, though it is not considered in the math here, the Scorching Ray user will actually "cap" on his to hit chance much easier than the Fighter with iterative attacks and the buffs which increase to hit will start tipping the scales further.A two handed Fighter will at 12th level receives three attacks per round. The damage will be 2d6(Greatsword)+9(STR)+4(Weapon Spec)+4(Weapon Training w/ Gloves of Dueling)+9(Power Attack)+3(Weapon Enhancement) for a total of 36 average damage per attack.
You can get 6 scorching rays(SR + quickened SR) off at level 11 and still have a move action left over. All of those rays hit at full BAB + dex + bonuses vs touch AC.Just to support your statement, the 2 weapon fighter will do more than that once the archetype is considered and we haven't even gotten to buffs. With my standard load by round 3 my 11th level Bardiche fighter is inflicting 2d8+36 and the same buffs would only bring you up to 4d6+8.
If you wanted to abuse, you should have gone with lengthy acid waves that are ray attacks.
You can get 6 rays at level 11 easy with scorching ray + quickened scorching ray, and still have a move action left over.
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You can get 6 rays at level 11 easy with scorching ray + quickened scorching ray, and still have a move action left over.
If you went straight Wizard for 11 levels and then picked up a lesser rod of quicken you could have 6(3 from rod + 1 from level + 2 from high mod) quickened casts per day. This will net you about 1.5 combats and the average day has 4-6. I could buy more rods to get more quickened spells, but now I am dumping gold to have consistent high output. In addition max level spells are probably better for my Augmented Summons than for Scorching Ray casts. You shouldn't see a Wizard dumping Quickened spells a lot until higher levels when it becomes required to maintain meaningful damage. Wizards using Quickened spell frequently at lower levels just deplete all of their resources. They will be amazing for 6 rounds a day and then an 8-9th level Wizard the rest of the day.
Inversely, if I have fire resistance 10, and get 2 scorching rays fired at me, I would reduce each ray's damage by 10, no?
Inversely, if I have fire resistance 10, and get 2 scorching rays fired at me, I would reduce each ray's damage by 10, no?
Yes. The resistance is applied toward each ray individually. It may only be one spell, but it is two separate attacks from that spell.
Inversely, if I have fire resistance 10, and get 2 scorching rays fired at me, I would reduce each ray's damage by 10, no?Yes. The resistance is applied toward each ray individually. It may only be one spell, but it is two separate attacks from that spell.
Then, reasonably, one should add damage to each ray, if you take it away.
My 2 cents at least.