The title says it all really.
The problem seems to be that lesser beast grants what is clearly a claw attack but it is not a permenant feature of the character. Does the rounds per day nature of the claw attack prevent the character from taking Eldrich claws or other claw based feats?
The title says it all really.
The problem seems to be that lesser beast grants what is clearly a claw attack but it is not a permenant feature of the character. Does the rounds per day nature of the claw attack prevent the character from taking Eldrich claws or other claw based feats?
It doesn't prevent the character from taking the feat as long as the prereqs are satisified at some point. However, the feat would be "lost" any time the prereqs aren't satisfied. Basically you'd only have access when the claws were out.
Basically you'd only have access when the claws were out.Essentially this.
You can take any feat you can qualify for (even temporarily) but you can only make use of it (or feats which it is a prerequisite for) while you qualify for it.
So wizards can take Deepsight to increase their darkvision...even though they only have it when they cast the spell.
Or large and in charge, since he can cast Bulls Strength and Enlarge Person.
I'm sorry but taking feats you don't have the prerequisites for makes no g+~$++n sense. Why bother listing prereqs at all?
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I'm sorry but taking feats you don't have the prerequisites for makes no g+#@&$n sense. Why bother listing prereqs at all?
Think of them more as "Prerequisites for the feat to be active" than "Prerequisites to take the feat".
Basically you'd only have access when the claws were out.Essentially this.
You can take any feat you can qualify for (even temporarily) but you can only make use of it (or feats which it is a prerequisite for) while you qualify for it.
Cool like 2 int 11 fighters who trade off a headband of +2 int every month. They can both take combat expertise but can only use it when they have been wearing the band for a day or so.
Director of Games
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Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.
Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.
Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you for taking an even off the cuff look at this. With more ways for players to get natural attacks now questions like this are becoming more important. If you do have the inclination to investiagte further please let us know what you find.
Thanks again, you make a great game.
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Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.
Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.
Hmm, considering how many options have been added for claws and teeth this is pretty limiting.
Alchemists, barbarians, druids, rangers, sorcerers, and summoners, all have abilities which would benefit greatly from eldritch claws.
This pretty much limits Eldritch Claws to an eidolon/ animal companion feat which is frustrating.
Hmm, considering how many options have been added for claws and teeth this is pretty limiting.Alchemists, barbarians, druids, rangers, sorcerers, and summoners, all have abilities which would benefit greatly from eldritch claws.
This pretty much limits Eldritch Claws to an eidolon/ animal companion feat which is frustrating.
I agree and it limits some really fun natural weapon using characters. Hopefully Jason will change his opinion once he investigates further. In the mean time I have a few levels to convince my GM that it is OK.
Thing is, it's not like it's a broken option. INA isn't particularly powerful and generally equates to +1 average damage on a single natural attack. I'd rather take weapon focus.
It's just that allowing it opens the door for...well okay a lot of options that likely also won't break the game, but like I've stated, make no sense whatsoever.
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Thing is, it's not like it's a broken option. INA isn't particularly powerful and generally equates to +1 average damage on a single natural attack. I'd rather take weapon focus.
It's just that allowing it opens the door for...well okay a lot of options that likely also won't break the game, but like I've stated, make no sense whatsoever.
Why does it make no sense that you can make your claws (which are part of one of your class powers) more powerful.
I'll give you that things that come from spells makes a lot less sense but just as an example your alchemist may have discovered a more powerful feral mutagen. Heck... even with spells I think it's fine, you take a feat that makes your spells a bit more powerful.
To me it's just kind of irritating that here we have a feat that's ideal for quite a few characters, it's not broken but a vagary of the rules makes it not work.
Maybe the better solution is to change Eldritch Claws slightly so it works with these class features.
My opinion: I think a good precedence for this type of thing is the Fly skill.
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).
Fly requires you to have a reliable means of accessing flight every day, either thru natural ability, class/special ability, or spell slots that can cast Fly or Glide.
Incidentally, that quote from Fly is another badly written part of the rules, there`s no need to phrase the first part as a broad exclusion of non-natural flight, only for the second second to add an exception that isn`t grammatically linked to the first sentence. The passage would just be clearer and shorter if it said: (27 vs. 40 words)
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Director of Games
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Characters are automatically proficient with any natural weapons they possess (pg 141). While the rules call this out with the caveat "possessed by their race", I think it is a fine and fair assumption to add to any gained due to a spell or class feature (the polymorph subschool calls this out in fact, pg 212).
Just thought I would clear that up
Jason Bulmahn
Busy guy
Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.
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Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.
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Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Not going to lie, I don't like your take on it for a few reasons. One, it already happens with classes that can take feats without prereqs and use those feats to qualify for other feats. Yeah, it is a class ability that gives the bonus. But then so are the claws, right? Two, it worked like that in 3.5 and while I know PFRPG is its own animal, you are again breaking backwards compatibility. Three, the feat becomes limited to animal companions and eidolons for all intents with your take on it. Given the reasoning, what makes the cut? Druids can because they get a few hours? But wizards and sorcerers can't because their spells typically are short duration as well? Or are only certain casters that have certain spells with long durations able to do it?
That splitting of hairs complicates things a tad too much for me. I would also be quite confused as to why you would put out that particular feat in a book geared for PCs when the vast majority of them would never be able to use it. Stick it in an adventure path or companion book with something not intended for PC use, would make much more sense.
By no means is this an attack on your stance, just trying to fuel your thought process and give you some perspective from the other side ;)
Hmm I may be, and given my history likely am, wrong but does this not create a unique instance where a person has a weapon, if only while raging etc. Is proficient in the weapon, yet cannot take feats based on the weapon.
A person only having access to a weapon for a short time each day is unusual. But there is a near analog in ammunition using weapons and especially firearms.
It costs a non-trivial amount of gold to fire a pathfinder gun and a trivial but measurable amount to fire a bow or crossbow. Characters are occasionally poor or in areas where ammo can become very scarce.
In a situation of extreme ammo shortage; say a gunfighter with 3 rounds left to her name, trapped in an abandoned temple deep underground, with no access to other resources but with plenty of food, water, safety, and time. Could this gunfighter, who had just leveled while clearing the temple, take a feat to increase the accuracy etc. of their guns?
Their access to their weapon is far more restricted than that of the Lesser Beast Totem barbarian trapped in an identical temple across the way. So why can the gunsel take the feat where the clawjocky cannot?
Perhaps neither can take a weapon based feat in this case? If that is so then how much access is needed? 100 rounds of ammo per feat? 1000?
I think this is a level of detail that most folks would find tedious to track but it is required if we stipulate that you need X level of access to an ability to take a feat based on it.
It is much simpler to say that you must have access to the ability/requirement etc. to select a feat and that a feat only functions when all of its requirements are met. This will, for example, allow a human wizard with the Halfling heritage feat to take the size small only Halfling combat feats once they can cast "reduce person". However these feats, and any feats based on them, will only be in effect so long as they are size small. This seems to me to be the simplest solution and it has the added benefit of allowing maximum player creativity.
As I said I am probably wrong but writing this out has at least given me some ideas fon a Halfling bloodline sorcerer varient so that is to the good.
I thak you for your consideration.
Characters are automatically proficient with any natural weapons they possess (pg 141). While the rules call this out with the caveat "possessed by their race", I think it is a fine and fair assumption to add to any gained due to a spell or class feature (the polymorph subschool calls this out in fact, pg 212).
Just thought I would clear that up
Jason Bulmahn
Busy guy
It seems odd that they posses it in that case, but don't posses it in the case of being able to take a feat to modify it.
stuff
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I think you're misrepresenting the facts here. There is no analogous situation in your post. A more analogous situation would be taking weapon focus in guns when you don't have proficiency in it. You don't have the prerequisite. I mean theoretically, down the line, you might snag a dip level in Gunslinger, but right now you can't don't have proficiency.
This is about meeting prerequisites. The gunslinger without bullets who wants to take Weapon Focus (Arquebus) or whatever, STILL MAINTAINS PROFICIENCY even if he doesn't have the ability to shoot it. If it said "Prerequisite: have a gun for an arm" and you don't, well then tough luck.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.
Personally, I would say that having claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How is "having claws for a few rounds per day" any different than "having a sword for a few rounds per day"? E.g., a gladiatorial slave (per Spartacus) only permitted use of "real" (steel) weapons while in the arena fighting to the death, and otherwise trains with wooden knock-offs? (A person training with claws would argue that he could do so by taping daggers to his fingers, or some such facsimile.)
Note that a "strict" interpretation is at variance with 3.5 (and the common expectation of players coming from that system). ...Just sayin'. (There are certain to be a fair number of STR:10 halfling barbarians who'd be surprised to learn that their license to Power Attack while raging is going to be revoked.)
Side-note: As far as claws and other natural attacks go, where in the rules does it specify whether or not your average humanoid is proficient in them? I.e., one assumes that a beast-totem barbarian is proficient in making claws attacks -- but the Beast Totem, Lesser rage ability does not specify that is confers proficiency in claw attacks -- so I'm wondering where they really come from. (This would obviously be an issue for a player who wants to take Weapon Focus:Claw at 1st level for his barbarian or alchemist intent on a Beast Totem or Feral Mutagen track.)
Side-note: As far as claws and other natural attacks go, where in the rules does it specify whether or not your average humanoid is proficient in them? I.e., one assumes that a beast-totem barbarian is proficient in making claws attacks -- but the Beast Totem, Lesser rage ability does not specify that is confers proficiency in claw attacks -- so I'm wondering where they really come from. (This would obviously be an issue for a player who wants to take Weapon Focus:Claw at 1st level for his barbarian or alchemist intent on a Beast Totem or Feral Mutagen track.)
At the top of page 141 in the core rule book it says:
All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race.
Though I think it should be changed to say "any natural weapons possessed by their race/class" instead of just race.
As for taking weapon focus in a natural weapon I'd say sure go ahead as long as you have access to that weapon when you take the feat. So you can't take weapon focus:claw at lv 1 unless you have access to a claw attack at lv 1.