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Whoah. I just noticed that nothing in the Ki Mystic monk archetype changes the way ki pool (or ki points) work. It doesn't take anything away either. It only seems to add more ki points and some new abilities.
Is it true that my 12th-level ki mystic monk with 16 Wisdom will have 20 ki points?
Looking for an official response to the contrary. Otherwise, RAW seems pretty clear to me.
I'm not seeing where you are getting an extra 9 ki from. Given the variables you assigned it yields only 11 ki points.
06 half monk level
03 Wisdom modEquals 9 for Ki Pool
Plus
Ki Mystic
06 half monk level
03 Wisdom mod
02 for 4th level
Equals 11 for Ki Mystic
...which equals 20 total ki points.
You don't get 2 Ki pools, Ki Mystic simply moves up the level you actually acquire your Ki pool to 3 instead of 4.
You don't get the same class ability twice. Hero Labs concurs with this as well.
Hero Labs is wholly unofficial and often wrong. Two ki pools DO stack as is evidenced by multiclassing (ninja/monk for example).
There is NOTHING in the ki mystic's text that says you lose the ki pool class abilities ki points.
Hence, they stack per RAW unless someone can point me to an OFFICIAL source that says otherwise.
And it makes sense what's more. The ki mystic gives up some POWERFUL defensive abilities (immunities and spell resistance to name a few) in return for some added versatility from having additional ki points.
Actually, monk/ninja ki pools only stack because they specifically say they do in ninja. That means by RAW the default is ki pools don't stack, unless specifically stated otherwise. Since the two monk ki pools don't say they stack, they don't.
It actually doesn't make sense that they do. The developers don't tend to give two immensely similar abilities to classes, so I think this is an oversight. As to giving up good defensive abilities, well yes, but archetypes don't have to be as good as the base class. Often, they aren't (see fighters).
Your logic doesn't really follow through. Just because the ninja ki pool specifically states that it stacks, doesn't mean that ki pools don't stack in general.
It even includes a section on what happens when you reach 4th level and get ki pool... It clearly just doesn't quite spell it out clearly enough for those who can't read intent.
And that doesn't change how ki pool works at all. If it did, it would clearly state as much. Also, I read intent just as well as anyone else. Best watch it with the (unintentional?) insults.
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Whoah. I just noticed that nothing in the Ki Mystic monk archetype changes the way ki pool (or ki points) work. It doesn't take anything away either. It only seems to add more ki points and some new abilities.
Is it true that my 12th-level ki mystic monk with 16 Wisdom will have 20 ki points?
Looking for an official response to the contrary. Otherwise, RAW seems pretty clear to me.
Ki Mystic (Su): At 3rd level, a ki mystic gains a pool of ki points equal to his Wisdom modifier. The pool increases to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier + 2 at level 4. If the monk has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, he gains a +2 bonus on all Knowledge skill checks. As a swift action, the monk can spend 1 ki point immediately before making an ability, or skill check to gain a +4 insight bonus on the check. This ability replaces still mind.
As I read this, your monk with a wisdom 16 (+3 bonus) would have 3 ki points at 3rd level. At 4th level he would have 2 (1/2 monk level) + 3 (WIS) + 2 (ki mystic) or 7.
At 12th level he should have 6+3+2=11 ki points, 2 more than other monks.| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yar!
Although I can guess as to the intent (and in my current game, we play it as everyone else says, that the Ki Mystic ability that grants a pool of ki points is instead of the normal Ki Pool class feature), I can see where RD is coming from (as it never says instead of, or that it replaces the Ki Pool class feature)... and going strictly by the text, he has a very good point.
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Taking this from a different angle than what I usually do.
The ki mystic archetype trades still mind for a pool of ki points.
Purity of body to give an ally a reroll
Diamond body for divination every time he rests if he spends the ki points.
Diamond soul for a bonus to AC and CMD
And empty body for the ability to roll every attack d20 or saving throw d20 twice for a specific amount of time.
The monk loses +2 on enchantment saving throws, immunity to all diseases, immunity to all poisons, spell resistance, and the ethereal ability.
Spell resistance is more often a detriment than a benefit. the +2 saves on enchantment are very situational and not very useful, and the immunity to poison/disease is less than awesome considering that monks get the best saves and won't need their immunity most of the time.
Three of the abilities from the apg variant require ki points to power. Even without the extra ki pool, the apg variant seems like it's worth taking. With the extra ki pool, it seems to be a lot more powerful than the original monk.
Thank you for the kind (and surprisingly accurate) words, Pirate. Your support means a great deal to me, in particular since you worded the argument so much better than I.
Magicdealer, the "worth" of any given class ability is entirely subjective. I'd argue that ki mystic monks are really crappy unless the two ki pools stacked.
Since it is obvious that the intent of the ki mystic monk is to be a "mystical and magical monk" that has more ki than other monks, I'd also argue that stacking the two pools is the INTENT as well as the RAW.
However, even I'm not 100% sure on that, hence why I began the thread in the first place.
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Magicdealer, the "worth" of any given class ability is entirely subjective. I'd argue that ki mystic monks are really crappy unless the two ki pools stacked.
Yep, hence my subjective opinion on the matter :p I did say I was going about it differently than normal for me. Continuing along the path of oddity, let me present the flavor text for the ki mystic.
"The ki mystic believes that violence is sometimes
necessary, but knowing and understanding is the true
root of perfection. Through meditation and spiritual
visions, a ki mystic can see beyond the veil of reality to
the underlying truth of all existence. A ki mystic has the
following class features."
From this I don't see anything that makes it obvious that the ki mystic is supposed to have more ki points than other monks. If anything, what I see is a monk who focuses their ki on more divination-based things. Nothing at all about having more ki.
By allowing the ki mystic to have two pools, you actually make him a much better combatant. He can gain an extra attack twice as often. He can boost his ac twice as often. He can heal himself twice as often. He can dimension door twice as often. He loses spell resistance, so his allies can buff and heal him without problems. He loses immunities to things he's already good at saving against. He can give an ally *which includes himself* the ability to reroll an attack roll as an immediate action. This works nicely with stunning fist. Extra bonuses to defense, which are always nice for a melee character. And an awesome mystic persistance which lets him roll twice for all of his attacks. At that level, rolling twice for all eight attacks is a big dpr boost. And it affects his allies too.
Now, with just one ki pool, these abilities are still pretty limited. But with two, you're getting twice the mileage out of the best monk abilities as is, and you're getting a bunch more abilities that are a lot better for combat.
Ok, for my more normal stuff.
The ki mystic ki pool reads: At 3rd level, a ki mystic gains a pool of ki points equal to his Wisdom modifier. The pool increases to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier + 2 at level 4.
Now, at 4th level, the pool follows the same calculation as the pool in the core rule book, except with two more uses.
I think the intent of the ability was to open access to the monk pool at 3rd level, and to add an additional 2 uses a day at 4th level and beyond. Not to give you two pools to total up.
Of course, a strict reading of the class gives you two pools. However, I don't think that was the intent of the ability. YMMV
What if you have two ki pools, but they don't stack. You have a ki mystic ki pool that you can spend on skill checks, and all the other ki mystic abilities, and a regular ki pool that you can spend on the monk abilities. Alternatively, you have two separate ki pools, one of which gives you skill check bonuses, the other gives you combat bonuses, and you can spend from either pool to activate all your additional powers.
This is a logical conclusion from determining that both abilities are separate and you have both at once - each one says what you can do with its ki, and neither says you can use the other ki pool to power it.
This fits the flavor of the ki mystic much better - yes, they have more ki, but they can't use it for the combat-specific applications, only (possibly) the utility powers, as well as getting more ways to spend it.
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That being said, there's no listed way to refresh your ki mystic pool of ki, unless you assume that it works the same as the ki pool ability itself - but if they're separate, you can't necessarily assume that.
What if you have two ki pools, but they don't stack. You have a ki mystic ki pool that you can spend on skill checks, and all the other ki mystic abilities, and a regular ki pool that you can spend on the monk abilities. Alternatively, you have two separate ki pools, one of which gives you skill check bonuses, the other gives you combat bonuses, and you can spend from either pool to activate all your additional powers.
This is a logical conclusion from determining that both abilities are separate and you have both at once - each one says what you can do with its ki, and neither says you can use the other ki pool to power it.
This fits the flavor of the ki mystic much better - yes, they have more ki, but they can't use it for the combat-specific applications, only (possibly) the utility powers, as well as getting more ways to spend it.
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That being said, there's no listed way to refresh your ki mystic pool of ki, unless you assume that it works the same as the ki pool ability itself - but if they're separate, you can't necessarily assume that.
I had considered this as well.
I don't really see much confusion in the way it's written. It clearly states that at level 3 you get ki equal to your Wisdom modifier. Then at level 4 your ki pool increases to 1/2 level + Wisdom modifier +2. Your ki pool is still your ki pool. Nothing has changed with that.
It looks like losing still mind grants you a ki pool one level earlier and then gives you +2 more than you would normally have had. Looks like this is RAW and RAI as far as I can tell.
When I read the rules, I try not to read too much into them. I like to just take them at face-value. If things are confusing, then I ask myself if something sounds too powerful and if I may be reading it wrong.
Yar.
When I read the rules, I try not to read too much into them. I like to just take them at face-value.
Unfortunately, not everyone or every group has the luxury of doing this. In some groups, a more thorough reading of the rules is necessary. And for some people, a reading of the rules without going to deep into them can still produce the interpretation we are discussing here.
One person reads it as replacing your Ki Pool (su) ability, giving you a single ki pool early and a +2 bonus to it at lv.4. (no where does it say it replaces the base monks ki pool, by the way).
Another person reads the APG in order (starting at page 1 and reading on from there), reads the rule about how archetypes work with regards to their abilities replacing the base classes abilities (see Alternate Class Features), then reads the Ki Mystic Monk exactly as is, and sees that the class feature called Ki Mystic (su) is a separate ability from the class feature called Ki Pool (su) and does NOT replace it, but stacks with it, giving him 2 abilities that grant ki pools. (and if you read my longer post above with the rules quotes and links, you'll see that this is, in fact, the Rules As Writen). Then the question comes up: do they stack into one large ki pool, or are they two separate ki pools that you can use to access different sets of abilities?
And thus: this thread.
~P
Yar.
When I read the rules, I try not to read too much into them. I like to just take them at face-value.Unfortunately, not everyone or every group has the luxury of doing this. In some groups, a more thorough reading of the rules is necessary. And for some people, a reading of the rules without going to deep into them can still produce the interpretation we are discussing here.
One person reads it as replacing your Ki Pool (su) ability, giving you a single ki pool early and a +2 bonus to it at lv.4. (no where does it say it replaces the base monks ki pool, by the way).
Another person reads the APG in order (starting at page 1 and reading on from there), reads the rule about how archetypes work with regards to their abilities replacing the base classes abilities (see Alternate Class Features), then reads the Ki Mystic Monk exactly as is, and sees that the class feature called Ki Mystic (su) is a separate ability from the class feature called Ki Pool (su) and does NOT replace it, but stacks with it, giving him 2 abilities that grant ki pools. (and if you read my longer post above with the rules quotes and links, you'll see that this is, in fact, the Rules As Writen). Then the question comes up: do they stack into one large ki pool, or are they two separate ki pools that you can use to access different sets of abilities?
And thus: this thread.
~P
I hope it didn't look like I was trying to criticize anyone for their interpretation. I was just saying how I read the rules. I have found that most of the confusion comes from reading too much into things. It's how we end up with arguments like the "bag of rats" in 3.0.
My interpretation of the rule doesn't counter what the APG says. Nowhere does it say you should get an additional pool and it doesn't make sense that you would. At low levels it may look ok but as the monk were to advance, it becomes apparent that it would be too much. This is why I would say that the ki pool is meant to enhance, not replace, the standard ki pool. Also, comparing the two abilities (ki mystic and still mind) it seems odd that essentially doubling your ki pool is far and above the ability it replaces. Therefore it probably isn't meant to do that.
What is the common opinion these days?
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Yar!
My opinion is this:
I hate it when old posts get scrambled. My post above used to be so clean with quotes and links, and now after two+ years and who knows how many code updates, it's all scrambled with my links within what used to be a quote fighting for supremacy and destroying the layout of the post. *cries on the inside* :(
As for the actual topic at hand, while I still play it as "it replaces the normal Ki Pool", I do also wish for an actual answer, as the wording (or lack thereof regarding any mention of the normal ki pool) still lends itself to having two separate ki pools.
*wishes he could hit FAQ again*
~P
"At 3rd level, a ki mystic gains a pool of ki points equal to his Wisdom modifier. The pool increases to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier + 2 at level 4. If the monk has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, he gains a +2 bonus on all Knowledge skill checks. As a swift action, the monk can spend 1 ki point immediately before making an ability, or skill check to gain a +4 insight bonus on the check.
This ability replaces still mind."
It strikes the difference between level 3 and 4. I'm under the idea that it's one big ki pool. It -is- two points higher than the normal once the mystic hits 4.
He still gets the normal uses of Ki at level 4, right? (+20 speed, +4 Dodge AC, Extra flurry)
What is the common opinion these days?
on this rare occasion I tend to agree with you prodding the innards of rules. If only because 99% of abilities usually have the wording "this functions as X and replaces that ability".
This doesn't, so its a different ability. however I'd house-rule it to say that you only add your wis modifier once, and only one modifier is added (chosen when the second is gained). to keep it in line with all the other users of KI.
We treat it as two separate pools, too. No stacking or replacing.
One person reads it as replacing your Ki Pool (su) ability, giving you a single ki pool early and a +2 bonus to it at lv.4. (no where does it say it replaces the base monks ki pool, by the way).
This, but it should be corrected to be explicit. e.g., "This ability replaces still mind and ki pool."
I'll add a vote for FAQ clarification.
BTW the only time my Ki Mystic ever really uses ki for an archetype ability is for the mystic insight re-roll occasionally. The potential skill bonus wouldn't usually make a difference. So having a whole pool of rerolls would be kinda broken in my opinion.
could make up for losing diamond body and diamond mind though ; )
One of my players uses the re-roll ability all the time for the group. It's kind of strong, but then again it eats up the precious swift action which has hurt him a lot already (e.g. hit by enemies because of too low AC).
So it's not broken IMO but lets the archetype do what it's supposed to.
Has anybody crunched the numbers? If you literally DOUBLED the ki pool for a monk, how advantageous would it be? It could be very powerful in theory, but I've yet to see any numbers. Might check it out myself.
Hmmm, good thread and all these years without an answer.
I'd say RAW its two ki pools. I can only guess RAI is, but after reading it I'm leaning towards two pools, where one can be used for the class abilities while the other pool is a standard monk pool.
Official Rules Response
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Monk ki mystic archetype: The ki mystic ability seems like it alters the monk’s ki pool ability, but it doesn’t say “This ability alters ki pool.” Is this because the ki mystic’s ki pool is a separate second pool that can only be used for the powers described in the ki mystic archetype, and the monk then also receives the regular ki pool that works as normal?
No. When Advanced Player’s Guide was written, archetypes were new and the “this alters” language didn’t exist yet, meaning archetypes in this book, including ki mystic, never include it, even when they should by current standards. The ki mystic ability alters ki pool. At 3rd level, a ki mystic gets a ki pool of Wisdom modifier points that can be used for the abilities listed in the archetype. At level 4, this upgrades to a ki pool of 1/2 monk level + Wisdom modifier + 2 points, which is a single ki pool (the ki mystic does not gain two) that can be used in all the usual ways a monk can use ki, plus those mentioned in the archetype.
Dang, I'm disappointed that this is the FAQ of the week, especially since I felt Mark cleared it up last week when he said the the same thing as the first sentence of this answer. But a FAQ is a FAQ so that's still a good thing at least.