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Okey dokie...got a player using shape change into this guy. Earlier in the campaign he saw what I describes as a velaptasour (that's what I get for watching too much Jarassic Park). So, he's picked this guy as the closes Beastiery equivalent for shape change purposes.
So, imagine my surprise when, in combat, he's rolling 5 attacks (at 4th level...even the ninja is jelous) I decide to look it up the book.
The first thing that caught my eye were the attacks. It reads...
Melee 2 talons +5 (1d8+2),bite +5 (1d6+2), foreclaws +0 (1d4+1)
Notice the last thing. It says foreclaws (plural), but unlike every other plural attack in the book, it doesn't list a 2 (or higher) in front of it. I looked at pages and pages of monster and couldn't find another instance where an attack was listed plural, but didn't have a number in front of it. So, is it ONE attack with the foreclaws, or two (one for each?)
Then I had another thought..... Why would this Dinosaur even get 4 OR 5 attacks? Every other monster (as far as memory serves) tends to get however many paws/legs/hands/claws minus two (or so) attacks. The reasoning is simple. The monster cannot attack with whatever it needs to stand on. The obvious exceptions you see are monsters/animals who fly (they can clearly attack with their leg claws while in the air) and those who have Pounce AND rake (ala dire lion). Denonychus has pounce, but not rake.
Plenty of animals/monsters have sharp claw hind legs (including Lions), but none of them (as far as I have been able to find) get to attack with them outside of Fly or rake.
What are your thought? I already suspect this dinosaur wasn't edited properly because of the "Foreclaws" with no number conflict. But what about the rest of attack listing? Is that an error or is there a really good reason he can use all limbs to attack / round when it seems to me very few (if any) other monsters can?
P.S. Assuming this is legal as it is written...the damage a 4th lv, 18 Str druid, (who gets 20 shifted) is positively scary. Player scored around 35 damage on my bosses hugh scorpion and was one shotting CR2's pretty reliably.
On flying raptors:
The raptor is 'pouncing' look under special attacks/abilities, then read pounce and how it works. The raptor runs at it;s target and then leaps, landing on said target and going at it with all limbs and its maw.
It's kinda of similar to the cats rake, but the cat is "if it hits with the front paws..." then it can make a rake, because for the cat a) it doesnt have to charge to do it, and b) if the front claws sink in, it's basically pulling it's self up to use the back claws really quickly.
On flying raptors:
The raptor is 'pouncing' look under special attacks/abilities, then read pounce and how it works. The raptor runs at it;s target and then leaps, landing on said target and going at it with all limbs and its maw.
It's kinda of similar to the cats rake, but the cat is "if it hits with the front paws..." then it can make a rake, because for the cat a) it doesnt have to charge to do it, and b) if the front claws sink in, it's basically pulling it's self up to use the back claws really quickly.
I know what pounce does...and when pouncing, it TOTALLY makes sense. And pounce says that if you have rake, you get to make the rake attacks whilest pouncing. So, the cat to do all limb attack, it must pounch (charge attack) OR it must succeed the grapple check (per the Rake description). The cast must pounce on your or grapple ya good to attack with it's hind claws that it walks on.
However, It looks like the raptor doesn't HAVE to Pounce, charge or rake (grapple) to get an all out attack on you. (He doesn't even have RAKE, so the whole pounce & rake thing doesn't even come into play). As written, the guy can simply just go all out on you on any full attack round with all four limbs. I dunno.... he's not really flying... he has no wings! So what is he doing? Jumping every round and attacking with all fours whilest he's in the air? I'm confused....
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What are your thought? I already suspect this dinosaur wasn't edited properly because of the "Foreclaws" with no number conflict. But what about the rest of attack listing? Is that an error or is there a really good reason he can use all limbs to attack / round when it seems to me very few (if any) other monsters can?
As Pendagast has said, those four attacks only occur when it charges and pounces. If there's a party member in the way? No charge. If it can't follow a mostly straight line? No charge. If one of the bad-guys has a braced longspear? Ouchie. Charge is pretty easy to limit, thanks to terrain, a smaller target in front of the beastie you don't want charge-pounced, etc.
When the Deinonychus *does* get a charge, whoo-ah, it's sexy, but the circumstances are no more or less under the GMs control than the pounce-rake of a big cat.
As for the plural on talons, the Deinonychus is not the only beastie in the book with multiple limbs that only count as a single attack. The octopus and squid both have 'tentacles' attacks that only count as a single attack and inflict a single instance of damage (or a single grapple attempt), despite representing eight or so limbs.
It's nothing new to Pathfinder, either. In 3.5, the hawk and owl both had a single 'talons' attack, representing attacks with one or both sets of talons, but only counting as a single attack (although Pathfinder has upgraded them both to have 2 talons attacks, which I didn't notice until I looked them up to use as examples!).
As for attacking with it's feet, that's pretty much what the Deinonychus does. It's got vicious foot-spurs, and, like an ostrich, it kicks people to death. Just as a martial artist can kick twice in a combat sequence, or even kick two people at the same time, the deinonychus, which is far better adapated to this sort of thing than Jean-Claude Van Damme, can apparently get it's feet off the ground pretty fast, and get them back fast enough that it doesn't fall on it's keister. (The tail might help, in that case. Kangaroos are able to lean back on their tail and kick with both legs, as well.)
But, if you don't like it, don't allow it. Cut the D down to one leg attack. Cut out the forelimbs completely. It's your game.
Heck, if your game-world doesn't have any dinosaurs running around, it's perfectly valid to forbid them as choices to summon / turn into / companionize. (Not that this will help when they pull out the leopard, who does the same pouncy-thing and gets an extra attack to boot...)
I don't think lvl 4 Druids even get pounce right away. second as he has only seen a velociraptor it is turkey sized so all the damage dice drop down one size. as creatures go though they are fine the last attack is at -5 dies poor damage.
Okay, I have a question with all of this then. Because the attacks as listed make it look like the "talons" and "bite" are the "Primary" attacks, and the "foreclaws" are the secondary attack. That can't be right? The foreclaws should be attacking with the bite before the talons should. If you look at the d20pfsrd.com picture of the deinonychus it looks like the "talons" are the back feet. In which case you wouldn't get those attacks unless you had "pounced." Therefore, shouldn't those "talons" be a "secondary" attack? I'm starting to get vastly confused about "beast" attacks. I used to think it was simple. However many attacks were listed the beast got to use all of them. Now I'm starting to think there has to be some rule somewhere that says which ones they get, and which ones they need special attacks to hit with in order to get.
Interestingly, if you look at the Animal Companion version of the Deinonychus it's even worse. It's clearly spelled out as 2 talons, a bite, and 2 claws. Further, the claws are primary attacks. So that's 5 attacks at full BAB.
I would suggest therefore that the Bestiary version is also meant to have a full 5 attacks on a full attack, but the foreclaws (plural) are secondary attacks in this case.
Note that Pounce doesn't give extra attacks that aren't normally available, it just lets you do your normal Full Attack at the end of a charge. What people are thinking of with the extra attacks is if the creature also has the Rake ability. See Tigers for an example of how that works.
Which makes me even more confused, because a Full Attack is specifically spelled out in the Combat section, and it saysInterestingly, if you look at the Animal Companion version of the Deinonychus it's even worse. It's clearly spelled out as 2 talons, a bite, and 2 claws. Further, the claws are primary attacks. So that's 5 attacks at full BAB.
I would suggest therefore that the Bestiary version is also meant to have a full 5 attacks on a full attack, but the foreclaws (plural) are secondary attacks in this case.
Note that Pounce doesn't give extra attacks that aren't normally available, it just lets you do your normal Full Attack at the end of a charge. What people are thinking of with the extra attacks is if the creature also has the Rake ability. See Tigers for an example of how that works.
You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Some of these beasts with multiple attacks don't have a base attack bonus high enough to get multiple attacks, which is probably just taken care of with the Natural Attacks description in the Bestiary. BUT that's specifically where the rules talk about "Primary" and "Secondary" attacks. By their language the "foreclaws" are actually secondary attacks...?
think of it like a jump kick, the Dino jumps straight up, and kicks his target.
but only on a full attack
If he moves more than 5 feet, then he can only bite this round.
move-> bite.
Full attack -> bite, claw, claw, talon, talon.
charge-> pounce, -> bite, claw, claw, talon, talon.
Can you point out where in the rules it makes that clear? Cause that's how I've always adjudicated it, but after looking at the Natural Attacks language in the Bestiary, I don't think that logic is backed up by RAW.
Okay, I have a question with all of this then. Because the attacks as listed make it look like the "talons" and "bite" are the "Primary" attacks, and the "foreclaws" are the secondary attack. That can't be right? The foreclaws should be attacking with the bite before the talons should.
The talons are the back feet, but they are also the primary weapons. Remember, this is the beast with a sickle on it's toe, whether it leaps or just attacks, it wants to sink that claw in deep to slice and tear, and it's delivered with a lot of power behind it. The foreclaws are just for hanging on while the teeth and talons do their work, and are much less strong than either.
Think of it like a kangaroo - the forelimbs are there, but a kangaroo fights by rearing back and kicking with it's feet because they are longer and stronger.
the two claw attacks are the back feet. the secondary fore claw attack is the dinky little claws on the forelimbs.
Okay, I have a question with all of this then. Because the attacks as listed make it look like the "talons" and "bite" are the "Primary" attacks, and the "foreclaws" are the secondary attack. That can't be right? The foreclaws should be attacking with the bite before the talons should.The talons are the back feet, but they are also the primary weapons. Remember, this is the beast with a sickle on it's toe, whether it leaps or just attacks, it wants to sink that claw in deep to slice and tear, and it's delivered with a lot of power behind it. The foreclaws are just for hanging on while the teeth and talons do their work, and are much less strong than either.
Think of it like a kangaroo - the forelimbs are there, but a kangaroo fights by rearing back and kicking with it's feet because they are longer and stronger.
Yeah, oh I totally get that. But those attacks should only be able to be used with a Full Attack because the beast has to leap to use them. By logic, I totally get that, and in fact that's how I'd adjudicate it. However, by RAW under Natural Attacks that is not made clear. A rules-lawyering player could bring out the book and say, "Nope, I get those "talons" as a basic attack." And I'm not sure I could prove otherwise by the rules at this point.
But those attacks should only be able to be used with a Full Attack because the beast has to leap to use them. (...) A rules-lawyering player could bring out the book and say, "Nope, I get those "talons" as a basic attack."
You're both right. He needs a full attack to use all those attacks. If he's making a single attack (Standard Action, AoO, etc.) then he picks one. He could certainly choose to make that attack with a claw instead of a bite. Since the claw does more damage, that would be the reasonable thing to do. It's just one attack though, even though he has 2 claws.
Yeah, oh I totally get that. But those attacks should only be able to be used with a Full Attack because the beast has to leap to use them. By logic, I totally get that, and in fact that's how I'd adjudicate it. However, by RAW under Natural Attacks that is not made clear. A rules-lawyering player could bring out the book and say, "Nope, I get those "talons" as a basic attack." And I'm not sure I could prove otherwise by the rules at this point.
Where is anyone saying that these attacks apply on anything more than a Full Attack or Pounce? If you move more than a 5' step then you only get one attack (excepting Pounce). It's a standard, core rule of the game.
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
But those attacks should only be able to be used with a Full Attack because the beast has to leap to use them. (...) A rules-lawyering player could bring out the book and say, "Nope, I get those "talons" as a basic attack."You're both right. He needs a full attack to use all those attacks. If he's making a single attack (Standard Action, AoO, etc.) then he picks one. He could certainly choose to make that attack with a claw instead of a bite. Since the claw does more damage, that would be the reasonable thing to do. It's just one attack though, even though he has 2 claws.
I think this makes a huge assumption about the GMs, because it assumes that the GM will know, based off of the BAB, how many attacks the creature gets and at what bonus. For example, it makes perfect sense for, say, a lion. To attack with its bite and one of its claws. Doesn't it? In which case does the Bite go as the first attack, and the claw go as a second attack in terms of like a Two Weapon Fighting situation? In which case I'm applying penalties to both those attacks... or not? Those are Natural Attacks, and nowhere in the Bestiary (that I can see) under Natural Attacks does it say anything about picking one of those attacks and applying penalties to the others if the beast uses more than one?
I feel like I'm getting more confused by the minute. When a lion attacks, do they only get either a bite, or one claw? They have to use a Full Attack to get both claws and a bite?
And... more importantly (the reason I keep posting) can anyone point to any rules in the Bestiary that deal with this?
I don't think lvl 4 Druids even get pounce right away. second as he has only seen a velociraptor it is turkey sized so all the damage dice drop down one size. as creatures go though they are fine the last attack is at -5 dies poor damage.
the "Velociraptor from Jurassic park" was actualy a Deinonocus. According to the description by the OP, the man sized beast from the Bestiary is correct.
Well... dang. This is one OP'd form to take. Adding a full +5 str to the primary attacks and 1/2 to the two secondary attacks means that (assuming he hits...which isn't hard since 3 attacks are at full BAB), he's got 19 damage from STR before we even start rolling dice. Five attacks whilest the ninja has to use a ki point to do 2 at this level (4). You don't have to pounce or rake (grapple) to use all the attacks. Dang.
I hate to adjudicate it just because I feel it's OP'd. I was hoping there was some rule I was overlooking that nurf'd his interpretation, hahahaha. Guess not!
Yeah, oh I totally get that. But those attacks should only be able to be used with a Full Attack because the beast has to leap to use them. By logic, I totally get that, and in fact that's how I'd adjudicate it. However, by RAW under Natural Attacks that is not made clear. A rules-lawyering player could bring out the book and say, "Nope, I get those "talons" as a basic attack." And I'm not sure I could prove otherwise by the rules at this point.Where is anyone saying that these attacks apply on anything more than a Full Attack or Pounce? If you move more than a 5' step then you only get one attack (excepting Pounce). It's a standard, core rule of the game.
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
So, Zap, does this mean that if a lion attacks with one claw and a bite, it incurs two weapon fighting penalties? Cause I'm pretty sure you could make a really strong case for a lion attacking someone with their mouth and one claw at the same time, without using a full attack action.
Edit: But their BAB is +3, which means that according to the rules they don't get more than one attack without incurring those two weapon penalties.
Natural attacks do not function like iterative attacks. If you make a full attack, you get all the listed attacks. If you only make a normal attack, you can use any natural attack, but only one of them.
I would love for someone to point out specifically in the rules where it says this. I didn't see it anywhere under Natural Attacks in the Bestiary. Is this a rule that came over from 3.5 that everyone "just knows?" Or is there a place that specifically says natural attacks don't function like iterative attacks?
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Natural attacks do not function like iterative attacks. If you make a full attack, you get all the listed attacks. If you only make a normal attack, you can use any natural attack, but only one of them.I would love for someone to point out specifically in the rules where it says this. I didn't see it anywhere under Natural Attacks in the Bestiary. Is this a rule that came over from 3.5 that everyone "just knows?" Or is there a place that specifically says natural attacks don't function like iterative attacks?
As added in the dit above, it's in the PRD under Universal Monster Rules.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
I would love for someone to point out specifically in the rules where it says this. I didn't see it anywhere under Natural Attacks in the Bestiary. Is this a rule that came over from 3.5 that everyone "just knows?" Or is there a place that specifically says natural attacks don't function like iterative attacks?
There's also this bit from the Core Rulebook, under the Combat section:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
So to recap, the bestiary deinonychus can take the following basic attack actions:
It's also in the Combat section of the Core rulebook and PRD:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Edit: *shakes a bite-claw-claw at the ninja*
Edit: *shakes a bite-claw-claw at the ninja*
* counters with a tongue-grab-pull-swallow whole *
Edit: *shakes a bite-claw-claw at the ninja** counters with a tongue-grab-pull-swallow whole *
...kinky.
Everything I know about romance, I learned from a froghemoth.
Incidently, if you ever come across any white half-dragon froghemoths, tell them to hurry home. Their mother worries so ...
:P
I'm not sure if this is Paizo or not... but check out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation .
It gives guidelines for monster creation and stuff. Using some quick math, it looks like this Deinonychus has a damage potential more in like with a CR5, not CR3, if we're interpreting everything property (5 attacks).
The table's from the Bestiary. That said, it's only a rough guideline for assigning statistics, one that does not necessarily need to be followed. In fact, the table includes the following disclaimer:
Once you have a creature's type and CR determined, use Table: Monster Statistics by CR to determine its approximate statistics by CR. These values are a rough guideline only. You will notice that many of the existing monsters do not follow these guidelines exactly. Most monsters excel in one of these areas, usually in the amount of damage dealt, but lag in one or two other areas to help balance them out
A creature is much more than its damage potential. There are many other considerations to take into account when determining its CR.
It's also in the Combat section of the Core rulebook and PRD:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.Edit: *shakes a bite-claw-claw at the ninja*
Thanks Zap and Heaven's for pointing this out. I think I get it now. In order to make iterative attacks, you need to use a full attack action. In order to make multi-limb attacks same principle applies. Greatly appreciate it!
Now let me throw something crazy at you... One of a lion's attacks is listed as 2 claws. Does that mean I get both claws in one attack and they both together do the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? OR! Does it mean that I use one claw that does the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? If it's only one (standard action) then if I use Full Attack action do I do that same attack twice?
If it's one attack with both claws, and that's one standard action, then the lion is obviously on it's rear limbs scratching with both claws, at which point one would ask: "Why wouldn't the lion be able to bite at the same time, it's already on its rear feet?" To which, I guess the answer would have to be: "Because it's only using a standard attack action, not a full attack. So whether or not it's on it's rear legs making those two claw attacks, it still can't use it's mouth unless you use a full attack." ;)
Creative Director
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Deinonychus's primary attack IS his talons. He kicks out with the big gutting talons on his feet, and those are the main way he takes down foes.
His front arms aren't nearly as effective as attacks, and so they, working together, count as a single attack—hence "foreclaws" with no "2" in front of them.
In all, he gets 4 attacks. On average, in all (assuming all 4 of those hit) he'll be doing about 22 points of damage, which is indeed rather high for a CR 3 monster... but that's not unusual. A LOT of monsters do particularly well in one category (AC, hp, damage, etc.) than normal.
This does make deinonychus a really good choice to shapechange into, of course... especially when combined with pounce.
The animal companion bit is indeed different, but since animal companions are built differently than monsters, it's not technically incorrect (a close look reveals other "inconsistencies" between the animal companion base stats and the monster stats here and there).
My evaluation: both version of the deinonychus are probably too good; he gets too many attacks for his animal companion form for sure, and he does a little bit too much damage overall.
The easiest solution all around would be to just remove his claw attacks, leaving him his 2 talons and his bite attack, which gives him an average damage of 19 (not MUCH lower... in fact, relatively insignificant to the point where I wouldn't bother for the monster... but removing the 2 claws for the druid animal companion isn't a bad move).
As usual, it's up to the GM whether or not these changes matter in your home game. Another easy way to handle it is simply to not allow the deinonychus as an animal companion... but that'd make gamers like me cry.
HERE'S HOW THIS HAPPENED:
Now... for lower CR monsters, and particularly for animals, we didn't have that luxury. Manipulating CR scores would make some monsters slip out of where they should be, and suddenly summon monster or summon nature's ally spells would become too powerful or not powerful enough, depending on which direction the monster's power curve bent.
In some cases, that meant we had to tremendously nerf a few creatures. The ape and dire ape come to mind—we had to keep them at CR 2 and CR 3 due to the summon spells and the like, and we really wanted to keep their stats pretty similar to the animal companion rules, but as statted in 3.5, these monsters had TREMENDOUSLY huge Strength scores. Now, that might be realistic (apes ARE strong), but it also made them do way too much damage. Since we couldn't just up their CR to what it should be (more like 4 or 5) and then adjust their lower stats up to match, we had to drastically lower their strength scores to bring their damage back down in line... and it's STILL kinda high.
Same thing happened with the deinonychus, only we just failed to take the damage down enough. The problem here isn't that it's doing too much damage with a single attack (like the ape's problem) but that it was doing to MANY attacks, and that's a lot harder to fix without leaving a mark. Had we had our Bestiary 100% done before we'd had to ship the Core Rulebook, this probably wouldn't have happened—we would have made the adjustments to the deinonychus AND to the animal companion and summon spells as needed to make it work more balanced.
Now, all that said in the spoiler above... I don't think thigns are THAT broken, which is why we haven't errataed this bit yet. As it stands, deinonychus is a really good choice for animal companion and wild shape, but since you don't get those powers until 7th level (full attacks for animal companion) and 4th level (wild shape) it's not as bad as it could be in the case of a 1st level monster. It's certainly a logical area for a GM to houserule, especially if he finds that the player has built the character in a way to not only take advantage of the dinosaur's strengths but to really empower them... but as with all things like this, you should try to adjust it as gently as possible.
My suggestion for getting rid of the foreclaws (or 2 claws) is the best solution for you, I think.
Now let me throw something crazy at you... One of a lion's attacks is listed as 2 claws. Does that mean I get both claws in one attack and they both together do the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? OR! Does it mean that I use one claw that does the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? If it's only one (standard action) then if I use Full Attack action do I do that same attack twice?
They're two separate attacks. So on a standard action it'd be a single claw attack. On a full attack you roll separately for each claw, so they can hit or miss independantly of each other.
Edit: Oh, and thanks for clarifying James. :)
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Heh, that figures. In a party with wizard/cleric/druid, the Druid has decided to wildshape into Deinonychus.
Now let me throw something crazy at you... One of a lion's attacks is listed as 2 claws. Does that mean I get both claws in one attack and they both together do the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? OR! Does it mean that I use one claw that does the listed damage at the listed attack bonus? If it's only one (standard action) then if I use Full Attack action do I do that same attack twice?They're two separate attacks. So on a standard action it'd be a single claw attack. On a full attack you roll separately for each claw, so they can hit or miss independently of each other.
Edit: Oh, and thanks for clarifying James. :)
That is fully awesome, and I've been doing it wrong for quite some time now. Another reason I love these boards, I learn something new all the time. I'd also like to thank James for chiming in here. So, thanks!
Edit: Just thought of this. Does that mean if a lion uses a full attack action they get two claws and a bite? If all three of those hit, that's some serious damage potential.
Edit x 2:Add in a "pounce" and "rake" which is TWO MORE CLAWS worth of damage and you've got a killer on the loose, at CR3. Especially considering all of those claws attack at a +7.
Yes. Animals get all their attacks on a full attack, and every primary attack is at their full attack bonus. Even a lvl 1 bear animal companion gets claw-claw-bite.
Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...
Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
Laughed out loud! Funny stuff Heaven's.
Oh man I am so using a lion at the next available opportunity. Lion is stealthily hiding in the grass: Charge, Pounce, Rake, Grab all as part of the same one full round action! Then the mouth maintains the grapple, and you get to get four more claw attacks. That is fully awesome.
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Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
I would. And then I'd point out that that character got outsmarted by a creature with an Intelligence 2.
They deserve it! Players are jackals anyway! Killing my monsters like they do... :-P
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Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
advantage is you shouldn't be on the receiving end of a pounce unless you're a barbarian with 5 intelligence. =D then it's totally fine and should take it!
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Creative Director
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advantage is you shouldn't be on the receiving end of a pounce unless you're a barbarian with 5 intelligence. =D then it's totally fine and should take it!Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
A barbarian who doesn't have enough hit points to take this is doing it wrong. Either that, or he needs more healer friends.
Great, this thread's gotten my mind wandering now. All of a sudden an image of an awakened tyrannosaurus alchemist downing a mutation in order to get beefy wrestler arms popped into my head.
I think I need to hunt down some food ...
A barbarian who doesn't have enough hit points to take this is doing it wrong. Either that, or he needs more healer friends.advantage is you shouldn't be on the receiving end of a pounce unless you're a barbarian with 5 intelligence. =D then it's totally fine and should take it!Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
Yeah but what about the poor caster who is midspell, sitting at the back of the group. His perception is a toilet swirl so he didn't see, hear, or smell the lioness hiding in the tall grass 80 ft. behind him because she's crouched and fully stealthed. Lioness charges, pounces, bites, "grabs," claw x 4. That caster is as good as toast, his CMD can't handle it, and he's gonna sit there and get clawed to death in short order. What's he going to do? Take out his trusty dagger and stab at the lioness's soft underbelly for five rounds?
Yeah but what about the poor caster who is midspell, sitting at the back of the group. His perception is a toilet swirl so he didn't see, hear, or smell the lioness hiding in the tall grass 80 ft. behind him because she's crouched and fully stealthed. Lioness charges, pounces, bites, "grabs," claw x 4. That caster is as good as toast, his CMD can't handle it, and he's gonna sit there and get clawed to death in short order. What's he going to do? Take out his trusty dagger and stab at the lioness's soft underbelly for five rounds?A barbarian who doesn't have enough hit points to take this is doing it wrong. Either that, or he needs more healer friends.advantage is you shouldn't be on the receiving end of a pounce unless you're a barbarian with 5 intelligence. =D then it's totally fine and should take it!Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
That's why being at the back is decently safe in a dungeon, but not really when you're out of doors and attacks can come from anywhere.
Yeah but what about the poor caster who is midspell, sitting at the back of the group. His perception is a toilet swirl so he didn't see, hear, or smell the lioness hiding in the tall grass 80 ft. behind him because she's crouched and fully stealthed. Lioness charges, pounces, bites, "grabs," claw x 4. That caster is as good as toast, his CMD can't handle it, and he's gonna sit there and get clawed to death in short order. What's he going to do? Take out his trusty dagger and stab at the lioness's soft underbelly for five rounds?A barbarian who doesn't have enough hit points to take this is doing it wrong. Either that, or he needs more healer friends.advantage is you shouldn't be on the receiving end of a pounce unless you're a barbarian with 5 intelligence. =D then it's totally fine and should take it!Of course, they're animals, so that Intelligence 2 is a pretty big disadvantage...Try telling that to the character on the receiving end of the pounce.
Dimension Door? :)
or pray his allies can get there in time. :(
James...thank you VERY much for giving me perspective on this subject. It helps a lot. I believe I will follow your advice.
y'know, one of the best ways to stop a velociraptor from pouncing is to pimp slap him with a pistol whip. Very much worth the 1 grit point, wouldn't you agree james?
Question, I've always run it like this, but:
Do animals, oozes and other critters with int 2 or less get AoOs? I've never let them before, but I dunno if that's right or not.
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Creative Director
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y'know, one of the best ways to stop a velociraptor from pouncing is to pimp slap him with a pistol whip. Very much worth the 1 grit point, wouldn't you agree james?
Question, I've always run it like this, but:
Do animals, oozes and other critters with int 2 or less get AoOs? I've never let them before, but I dunno if that's right or not.
Sure, why not?
It's basically a reflexive strike against a foe that suddenly leaves an opening. If a monster's able to attack a foe in the first place, it should be able to make attacks of opportunity.
Yeah but what about the poor caster who is midspell, sitting at the back of the group. His perception is a toilet swirl so he didn't see, hear, or smell the lioness hiding in the tall grass 80 ft. behind him because she's crouched and fully stealthed. Lioness charges, pounces, bites, "grabs," claw x 4. That caster is as good as toast, his CMD can't handle it, and he's gonna sit there and get clawed to death in short order. What's he going to do? Take out his trusty dagger and stab at the lioness's soft underbelly for five rounds?
Please note the section I have highlighted. There is a GROUP there. The big guy with the big sword swings his big sword and chops the lioness in two. End of problem.