the ninja already has access to all the rogue features. i say the line should be blurred even further.
the ki pool should just be a rogue talent based on how it's priced.
evasion sacrificed for ki pool, able to pick up a talent to get evasion. this means that evasion should have been a feat to be begin with. and it also suggests that the ki pool is worth a rogue talent.
the 2 classes should be merged completely, as should samurai and cavalier. both pairings are too similar for thier own class.
i don't know what to say about the samurai, but the gunslinger should be it's own class and the ninja could easily have been turned into a series of rogue talents
other than swapping 2 abilities; the ninja is otherwise a rogue.
one of these abilities can already be gained with the right selection of archtypes. that one truly different ability should have just been a rogue talent.
i also beleive that the ki pool should have been wisdom based, honing one's Ki requires patience, altertness, and practice. all of which are aspects of wisdom and this applies to ninja as well. it also gives them the steel resolve a ninja is expected to have. ninja hardly ever panic. this charisma stuff means that they will be leaving a yellow trail every time someone says "Boo".
You could differenciate the Rogue from Ninja by granting instead of sneak attack:
Sudden Attack (ex): If a Ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The Ninja's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Ninja flanks her target.
This extra damage is +2 damage at 1st level, and increases by +2 every two Ninja levels thereafter. Should the Ninja score a critical hit with a sudden attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sudden attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. Addition, the Ninja when using Sudden Strike recieves +1 to hit every odd level (+1 at 1st, +2 at 3rd, et cetera).
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a ninja can make a sudden attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sudden attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The Ninja must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Ninja cannot sudden attack while striking a creature with concealment.
See the pro:
You get a bonus to hit when sudden attacking unlike sneak attacking.
See the Con:
Deals less average damage than a Sneak attack. 1d6 is average 3.5, you deal 2 damage for each 1d6 sneak attack would deal.
The bonus to hit helps make up for this lessening of damage.
So, now the Rogue and Ninja could be two classes as they both don't have sneak attack (unless multiclassed).
You could differenciate the Rogue from Ninja by granting instead of sneak attack:
Sudden Attack (ex):...
I had to reread this because I thought it reference the horror that was the 3.5 Ninja. I wanted to reach through the internet and slap you around with a rotten fish. BUT, now that I comprehend it, I don't feel that way. :D It's like a combination of the ranger's favored enemy and sneak attack. So while flanking with this ability, a ninja gets +4 to hit and +2 to damage?
I don't know how I feel about that. It's VERY similar to the favored enemy damage bonus except that there is no CMB addon, no skill bonuses, etc. But they get it against every enemy they flank, not just one chosen type. Don't know how to feel... Sounds okay, but I feel some nebulous doubt in the back of my mind.
i beleive that there should be a rogue talent that gives the rogue access to the ki pool as well.
I agree with everyone else who has stated that using the rogue as the baseline for comparison isnt really fair as, imo, the rogue is at least slightly underpowered, and what they have created in the ninja should have been the baseline from the outset. Unfortunately that didnt happen, so all they can do is make corrective actions.
A ki pool-esque ability would have been just the boon the core rogue needed to bring it in line, of coarse "ki" wouldnt be the proper flavor, instead you could call it the "cunning pool", based off of wisdom (what the ninja's ki pool should be based off imho) where the rogue uses his roguish cunning and specialized training to execute special abilities.
I do however think that given the current situation the ninja could be tweaked to be at least slightly more fair. One suggestion I have is move the Light Steps ability to either level 4 or 8, and create another minor ability at the other level, and having these replace uncanny dodge and imp uncanny dodge. This means that the ninja gives up all the standard non sneak attack rogue abilities (trapfinding, trap sense, evasion, and both uncanny dodges), which will slightly differenciate them further and making it a somewhat harder choice to choose between the two.
I will say you all have done a fantastic job of capturing all the flavor (both historical and fiction based) of the ninja, I applaude you Jason and Co. for your excellent work. And know that with some minor changes we will receive a finalized ninja class to be proud of.
O_o but.. but.. why not bring in stuff to make the Rogue better instead?
give rogues a "Ki pool" via rogue talent and call it a luck pool for all i care. the "luck pool" would have the ability to count as a ninja's Ki pool for the purpose of Ki pool related powers. base it off wisdom. to represent that one needs to be both lucky and cunning to survive the harsh lifestyle a rogue lives. this also balances the rogue without nerfing the ninja.
Kudos to the one that pointed out the Ninja can only take one Rogue Talent. That makes things a whole lot better and maybe folks can quit whining.
It still. The Ninja needs to be supernatural and the ki point system is an already established system that works just fine (ala the Monk class). In fact, I am beginning to feel it's ok Ninja stays an alternate and can't multiclass with Rogue...it's better for it to multiclass with Monk.
As long as Paizo simply gives Ninja its own tricks, Rogue its own talents, and allows for minimal dipping into both, it should be just fine.
I feel, however, no hope for the Ninja. I have a lack of faith in how it's going to turn out. I think they might take the easy route and just make it a bland archetype and call it a day. That's the feeling I am getting. They won't be creative enough to make it a base class, so alternate it is (and I personally have my reasons for disliking this "alternate class" crap they're introducing).
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First impressions:
Acrobatic Master: A ninja can potentially do this 6/day at 2nd level. Some of the things he can do with an Acrobatics check of 40+ will give second level spells a run for their money. Maybe it could scale by level.
Darkvision: Duration is long enough to make other players feel stupid taking some lame old class like wizard that has to anticipate and cast this as a 2nd level spell, but short enough that the ninja will constantly have to track its expiry and re-enact it.
Feather fall: This seems like a lot of uses compared to a wizard of equal level as well.
Ki charge: 2nd level spell effect. Do I sound like a broken record yet? I'll just add to the same list, shadow clone.
Vanishing trick: This looks OK. The other ha-ha-I-can-do-tricks-four-levels-above-your-wizard abilities need limits along the same lines.
Ghost step: Poor wizards. This one is of appropriate spell level, though available more often than most 10th level wizards could manage.
See the Unseen: Compared to[/list]... Because those poor wizards are already so weak and "low-tier"...
;)
Smiley and OOC duly noted. All I can compare these abilities to are wizard spells, mostly a level higher than a wizard of the same class level could cast. If wizards are so amazing, what does that say about parity with other classes?
Comparing a far more limited class's abilities against them should yield 2-4 levels of superiority in a specialized field
In fact, 2nd to 4th level is just the range where I can see these overshadowing everyone else's class abilities, so any possible problems with the class hit when the campaign is getting established and the first adventure reaches its highest action. It's too front-loaded.
edit: Giving shadow clone a minimum level of 4th, with some changes to acrobatics master (scaling the effect - I agree with the earlier suggestion of +10 / +20 at 10th level) and darkvision (duration: 10 minutes ought to deal with one immediate problem without becoming an auto-cast) would address my concerns. Ki charge, feather fall and ghost step (as a standard action, suggested by others) are probably OK if not part of an unfortunate overall pattern.
Now that I think about it, blindsense with a similar duration to darkvision could be another neat option.
Kudos to the one that pointed out the Ninja can only take one Rogue Talent. That makes things a whole lot better and maybe folks can quit whining.
It still. The Ninja needs to be supernatural and the ki point system is an already established system that works just fine (ala the Monk class). In fact, I am beginning to feel it's ok Ninja stays an alternate and can't multiclass with Rogue...it's better for it to multiclass with Monk.
As long as Paizo simply gives Ninja its own tricks, Rogue its own talents, and allows for minimal dipping into both, it should be just fine.
I feel, however, no hope for the Ninja. I have a lack of faith in how it's going to turn out. I think they might take the easy route and just make it a bland archetype and call it a day. That's the feeling I am getting. They won't be creative enough to make it a base class, so alternate it is (and I personally have my reasons for disliking this "alternate class" crap they're introducing).
I think that we should stop stay attached to the class definition and look more to things as they are, and if work or not work.
It's stealthy? Sneaks attacks? Fine. It's a rogue. We already have rogues without, say, trapfinding, see APG. This does not make them less rogue. This one changes a little bit more to better fit a concept.
What's better? A Ninja slightly more different from standard rogue, but very good in representing the archetype, or a Ninja that is just a rogue with few changes?
This discussion is the first time I noticed this whole "alternate class" foolishness, and I have to say it makes zero sense to me.
Heck, the archetypes bend common sense enough - one of my first questions when reading about them was "so, can I multiclass in fighter/fighter and play multiple archetypes?" Or how about monk/monk/monk/monk so I can be Aang :)
Near as I can tell, there's little reason to prohibit it, as all your level-dependent abilities suffer just like any other multi-class combination - it seems like a rather arbitrary prohibition. You can be an elementalist wizard/inquisitor or a fighter/alchemist or even a paladin/rogue, but you can't be a phalanx/polearm fighter ... is it because that kind of cross-training makes no sense while training as a paladin/rogue does?
Now we have the even more arbitrary prohibition: alternate classes that are pretty much unrelated, yet which cannot multiclass ... and one of them is ninja/rogue?
Frankly, in any game I run, the whole "you can't multiclass in alternate classes" is going to go right out the window if this is how it's going to be implemented. What possible reason is there for someone to not be allowed to take both rogue and ninja levels?
It's not like paladin/anti-paladin where the classes themselves cause a prohibition - kind of like how it's impossible to multiclass druid and paladin - they didn't invent some strange new rule about how they're "alternate classes" ... they just let the existing rules sort it out.
+1 This is exactly the issue I have with this "Alternate Class" system. Either make it a class, prestige class, or archetype. This splitting hairs phenomenon is not going to be good for Pathfinder at all.
As "Ninja" is simply an archetype they should just be rogue talents. The barbarians rage powers and rangers combat styles are not limited so why is this?The mere existence of a class named ninja, or samurai, or even gunslinger, annoys me. These should all be able to be built using existing base classes plus possibly some new rogue talents (ninja), or feats (samurai), or weapons and a few feats (gunslinger)
I don't see the need for more classes. In fact, I thought we were about done with new classes and were going to focus instead on using archetypes. Add to it that these are "alternate" classes, an entirely new concept... and... sorry but ugh. Not interested. Will not see use in any game I run. Just saying.
I won't be satisfied until some new martial classes are introduced. Why is it ok for Ultimate Magic to introduce, yet, another spellcasting class but not ok for Ultimate Combat to introduce at least one new nonspellcasting class?
The iconic is ridiculous. He's got way too much crap on.
My opinion; change the iconic from what you have to a blank spot. He is a ninja after all. If he's seen, he's not much of a ninja.
The iconic is ridiculous. He's got way too much crap on.
My opinion; change the iconic from what you have to a blank spot. He is a ninja after all. If he's seen, he's not much of a ninja.
Look closer. "he" is actually as she. Looks like the disguise fooled you after all :D
Look closer. "he" is actually as she. Looks like the disguise fooled you after all :DThe iconic is ridiculous. He's got way too much crap on.
My opinion; change the iconic from what you have to a blank spot. He is a ninja after all. If he's seen, he's not much of a ninja.
Shouldn't have been able to see him at all to be able to see if he was a she or vice versa.
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The problem, Ciretose, is that Pathfinder hates multi-classing. Therefore the best way to create interesting mixed concepts is to promote cross-class abilities.it's not really a problem for me either.
i beleive that there should be a rogue talent that gives the rogue access to the ki pool as well.
i also beleive that rogues and ninja should be able to multiclass with one another, just like fighter/gunslinger or samurai/cavalier.
At a certain point, you stop having a rogue be a rogue if you start having so many shared features.
I view it more as rewarding staying with a single class than hating multi-class.
I think they are moving toward the template model and away from the prestige class model, which I am fine with personally.
Multi-classing works better for some classes than others, and I think that is as it should be, personally.
You could differenciate the Rogue from Ninja by granting instead of sneak attack:
Sudden Attack (ex):...I had to reread this because I thought it reference the horror that was the 3.5 Ninja. I wanted to reach through the internet and slap you around with a rotten fish. BUT, now that I comprehend it, I don't feel that way. :D It's like a combination of the ranger's favored enemy and sneak attack. So while flanking with this ability, a ninja gets +4 to hit and +2 to damage?
I don't know how I feel about that. It's VERY similar to the favored enemy damage bonus except that there is no CMB addon, no skill bonuses, etc. But they get it against every enemy they flank, not just one chosen type. Don't know how to feel... Sounds okay, but I feel some nebulous doubt in the back of my mind.
To be honest its my houserule for CV Ninja too. No reason why Ninja shouldn't be able to flank.
And level 1 Ninja would gets +2 damage and +1 hit when flanking.A level 9 Ninja gets +10 damage and +5 hit when flanking.
You are missing out from average 5.5 damage/attack, but the +5 hit should make up for it.
The iconic is ridiculous. He's got way too much crap on.
My opinion; change the iconic from what you have to a blank spot. He is a ninja after all. If he's seen, he's not much of a ninja.
Yeah, the iconic is pretty dumb looking.
Yeah, the iconic is pretty dumb looking.The iconic is ridiculous. He's got way too much crap on.
My opinion; change the iconic from what you have to a blank spot. He is a ninja after all. If he's seen, he's not much of a ninja.
not really dumb looking, just not very intelligent looking. too many hanging items, too many items that dont look like they are fastened very well, etc. all that really needs to be done is take off some of the items that he/she is sporting is all. the iconic ninja looks encumbered to me.
Ninjas do not get proficiency with the star knife, is this purposeful?
The Ninja looks very nice. Certainly a bit better than the Rogue, but that is because the Rogue could need some minor buffs, not because the Ninja is too good.
A few issues:
- The Mirror Image ability is written strangely. Are the Mirror Images capped at four? Why then is the ability in the next sentence described as exactly emulating Mirror Image? Please clarify if the ability is capped at 1d4 duplicates or if the Ninja gets more, as per the spell.
- Why does the iconic Ninja clearly use a Kusari-Gama but isn't proficient with it? I assume because the weapon hasn't been introduced yet and will be so in Ultimate Combat, but some clarification on that would be nice.
- Any reason not to multiclass for two levels of Monk, besides the alignment restriction? :p Unarmed Strike, Evasion, two good saves, two bonus feats...
Ah, but an actual question arises: Since the Monk doesn't get Ki Pool until lvl 4, would his levels still stack with the Ki pool of the Ninja? Probably not, but still a question to ask.
Here's what I want changed about the Ninja straight off the bat:
- Change their Charisma dependent abilities to Wisdom dependent.
- Remove Diplomacy and Bluff from their skill list.
- Take down their skill ranks per level from 8 to 4 or 6.
The ninja should not have to rely on persuasive skills, especially since it's not the historic version you're aiming for. Giving them a small but specialized skill pool with fewer ranks to spend would help to differentiate them from regular rogues.
Ninjas do not get proficiency with the star knife, is this purposeful?
Good catch. It's an iconic weapon, it's quite odd.
Here's what I want changed about the Ninja straight off the bat:
- Change their Charisma dependent abilities to Wisdom dependent.
That probably makes it too much like the CA Ninja. So now you get the Asian Rogue who is also a trained assassin and party face.
The Blinding bombs Advanced talent blinds for d4 minutes.
I do wonder if this should not be changed in something round-based.
You want it to be combat only? Minutes gives the character time to flee. Rounds means it is specifically for killing dudes.The Blinding bombs Advanced talent blinds for d4 minutes.
I do wonder if this should not be changed in something round-based.
Or it gives you minutes to kill things that are blind.
Or it gives you minutes to kill things that are blind.But you still have the choice. With rounds, killing it is the only option.
Good point TOZ. My concern was using it combined with the party (see what Cartigan said), but minutes duration opens more scenario. Didn't think about that.
EDIT: What about a compromise? Say, round based, but more rounds..
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Read and can honestly say it is the first Pathfinder class I straight out hate. I beg you, please, for love of whatever gods you worship, dump the whole concept. Make Ninja a rogue archtype like it should be.Probably do the same for Samurai, only as a cavalier archtype.
Altclass only makes sense when there is a logical reason why they can't be the same class other then the designers say so. So far, the only example of this is the paladin/antipaladin.
Seriously, if this were a magic item in the RPG Superstar competition, would it be chosen as one of the top 32? It would probably dumped for being too much like the Rogue, only more powerful.
This is the first time I'm saying, seriously, do better work.
All the best and warmest regards,
Kerney
Read and can honestly say it is the first Pathfinder class I straight out hate. I beg you, please, for love of whatever gods you worship, dump the whole concept. Make Ninja a rogue archtype like it should be.Probably do the same for Samurai, only as a cavalier archtype.
Altclass only makes sense when there is a logical reason why they can't be the same class other then the designers say so. So far, the only example of this is the paladin/antipaladin.
Seriously, if this were a magic item in the RPG Superstar competition, would it be chosen as one of the top 32? It would probably dumped for being too much like the Rogue, only more powerful.
This is the first time I'm saying, seriously, do better work.
All the best and warmest regards,
Kerney
Is it the flavor you dont like, or is it because the ninja is what the rogue should have been from the get go (mechanically speaking).
This makes no sense. It's a class, not a magic item.
Seriously, if this were a magic item in the RPG Superstar competition,
I think they meant to put archtype, not item.
Here's what I want changed about the Ninja straight off the bat:
- Change their Charisma dependent abilities to Wisdom dependent.
- Remove Diplomacy and Bluff from their skill list.
- Take down their skill ranks per level from 8 to 4 or 6.
The ninja should not have to rely on persuasive skills, especially since it's not the historic version you're aiming for. Giving them a small but specialized skill pool with fewer ranks to spend would help to differentiate them from regular rogues.
+1
Agree with the change to wisdom, and drop to 6 skill points per level. And they should drop Diplomacy, but I think should keep bluff, if only for ability to feint in combat, plus it goes hand in hand with Disquise, which they defianately should have.
Only thing I would add, which I stated before, is to remove both Uncanny Dodges, and move Light Steps to either level 4 or 8, creating another minor ability at the other level to replace the other one.
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This makes no sense. It's a class, not a magic item.
Seriously, if this were a magic item in the RPG Superstar competition,
Just use the term entry. If the first round of the contest were 'design a base class', rather then 'design a magic item', I argue it not only wouldn't it pass muster, it would be an entry that got four lines of very harsh criticism on the judges critique thread for non-winners and forgotten quickly.
Is it the flavor you dont like, or is it because the ninja is what the rogue should have been from the get go (mechanically speaking).
Honestly, Rogue ideally should be somewhere in between what this Ninja is and what core Rogue is. James Bond is a good example of a Charisma/Action Rogue/Ninja. But the point is he's a single class (or only a few level level dip multiclass) 'Rogue-type' character.
The point is it should one class. Since we have one we should stick with it.Archtypes create the variation needed and many of the Ninja ideas make a good Archtype powers. But that is where it belongs.
Finally, I don't believe Ninja should be a class. An organization can be a 'ninja clan' (or an Apis Consortium) but it should not be a class.
I hope that answers your question.
Class? Odd I was under the impression that the ninja was an alternate for the rogue....silly me and my assumptions. James bond as a ninja really?
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Exactly what part of James Bond do you see represented in the ninja?Honestly, Rogue ideally should be somewhere in between what this Ninja is and what core Rogue is. James Bond is a good example of a Charisma/Action Rogue/Ninja. But the point is he's a single class (or only a few level level dip multiclass) 'Rogue-type' character.
The point is it should one class. Since we have one we should stick with it.
Lets see--
James Bond is a member of Ninja clan (MI6) which serves its Lord (Her Majesty's Government).
He is an infiltrator, spy, saboteur and if needed, an assassin, just like a Ninja.
He uses tools and exotic weapons, very much like a ninja.
If Bond were in Feudal Japan, peasants would think he had supernatural powers, just like they thought Ninjas did.
He is a very capable fighter, but not the top of the line in a face to face fight. He manages through being cagy, getting in cheap shots (sneak attacks), just like a Ninja.
James Bond has a wide array of skills, just like a Ninja, or more to the point, a rogue.
Class? Odd I was under the impression that the ninja was an alternate for the rogue....silly me and my assumptions. James bond as a ninja really?
I think I just showed that Bond and the Ninja are infiltrator, spy, saboteur and assassins, only in different cultural contexts. Their basic 'tool kit' (ignoring the tech differences) however is simular i.e. of a Rogue with flavored builds, which is the point. To me this is the point; they shouldn't be separate classes. Therefore the Ninja class should be dropped or put on shelve to incorperate in the Rogue in "Pathfinder 2nd edition".
Alternate classes should only be used for things that can't be created by other classes, like the Antipaladin. Many Ninja abilities should be used in Rogue archtypes. But Ninja should not be so close to an established class that basically, I, like a lot of people, look at them and say 'what's the difference?' other then cultural context.
Now, off to write my fanfic, 'From Cheliax with Love' which will be followed by 'In Taldor's Secret Service'.
All the Best,
Kerney
I have to throw my first impression in here as well.
Its a rogue++. I see no real reason to ever choose this over a regular rogue. I would take a Ki pool over evasion every time. Unless I wanted trapspotter, I see no reason to go rogue, and since my party hasn't used a trapspotter in years of play I don't really see the need.
Weapon Proff: loss of rapier and sap, gain bastard sword (unclear if as martial or exotic, assuming martial). Considering the number of rogues I have built that have looked for ways of getting a decent 2 handed weapon, I would gladly take this change. Some may dislike losing rapier though, and I understand that.
I like the ki pool as charisma. It works in with the idea that there was something in the clan that allowed them to do it but not others, like a sorcerer's bloodline. It also makes them less MAD in my mind because I rarely dump charisma on rogues but frequently do not raise wisdom. Its usually my 3rd stat already, so I like that.
Light Step seems perfect for a tallent. Not sure why you added a class ability instead where the rogue has none.
Finally we get to Ninja Tricks. I cannot fathom why these are not just rogue tallents. The first thing I would do with this class is make them interchangeable. Make any that require ki only usable by the Ninja. Are their really any rogue tallents you don't want the ninja to have, or any ninja tricks that a rogue shouldn't? Other than the ones that use the ki mechanic, I can't think of any.
Not trying to be a jerk but, I am very curious. Why does it matter what they call it? I see a lot of complaining that something is a class rather than an archetype etc... Why is this so important to people? It functionally means nothing if the rules exist as one or the other.
Will they add a disclaimer to these new classes, that say they can not multi-class with other classes, when they come out.
example = Ninja can not multi-class with rogue.
Will this not be the first time we will have full 1-20 level classes that can not multi-class with others full 1-20 classes.
Will they add a disclaimer to these new classes, that say they can not multi-class with other classes, when they come out.
example = Ninja can not multi-class with rogue.
Will this not be the first time we will have full 1-20 level classes that can not multi-class with others full 1-20 classes.
Answer : Nope.
Explanation :
If they are archetypes, then there's no need to disclaim. Archetypes can't multiclass with other archetypes of the same class.
If they are alternate builds, like the paladin/anti-paladin, then again, no need to disclaim, as alternate builds can't multiclass with each other.
If they are base classes, like oracle vs witch, then again, no need to disclaim, as they will be able to multiclass with other classes.
Director of Games
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Couple of quick notes here to the crowd.
1 - Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment.
2 - Folks need to remember that an alt class is really just an expanded archtype. The differences are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. So much so, that we are seriously looking at the definitions of the two due to all the confusion.
3 - We are cognizant of some balance issues, but are looking for more actual playtest feedback. I know the ki pool looks a lot better than evasion, but I could use some more actual feedback on the difference. This is why we playtest.
That is all.. carry on.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Couple of quick notes here to the crowd.
1 - Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment.
I hope this is negotiable :(
Disguises and pretending to be someone you're not to infiltrate places works in a historical sense but not so much in a fantastical one. Real ninjas did not have access to invisibility, the ability to run over water or climb walls at a lightning fast speed. That's why they resorted to disguises. The pop culture ninjas we've grown up with are ruthless killing machines that rarely say a word. I think those are better off with a high wisdom than a high charisma. Alert and wise rather than charming and suave.
Thanks for the notes and good luck with the playtest.
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Director of Games
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Couple of quick notes here to the crowd.
1 - Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment.
I hope this is negotiable :(
Disguises and pretending to be someone you're not to infiltrate places works in a historical sense but not so much in a fantastical one. Real ninjas did not have access to invisibility, the ability to run over water or climb walls at a lightning fast speed. That's why they resorted to disguises. The pop culture ninjas we've grown up with are ruthless killing machines that rarely say a word. I think those are better off with a high wisdom than a high charisma. Alert and wise rather than charming and suave.
Thanks for the notes and good luck with the playtest.
Yeah, we are keeping that in mind as well. With the ninja I was trying to walk the line between the fantastical and the historical. This seemed like a synergy move to me to get that point across, but many are just seeing it as a drain on the power of the class, which I get. Problem being of course, that the power may be a bit high as it currently stands, so asking for more through stat consolidation is not necessarily the way I am leaning right now. Will see, there is still much work to be done.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the idea is for them to be able to be either the mystical fantasy ninja or a more (more, not completely) historical type bluffy sort, depending on which tricks/skills/feats you pick.
Could we at lest kill ninja tricks and just roll them into rogue talents. It seems a needless division of class "talents" and one no other class does.
Even the samurai shares orders with every caviler.
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Couple of quick notes here to the crowd.
1 - Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment.
I hope this is negotiable :(
Disguises and pretending to be someone you're not to infiltrate places works in a historical sense but not so much in a fantastical one. Real ninjas did not have access to invisibility, the ability to run over water or climb walls at a lightning fast speed. That's why they resorted to disguises. The pop culture ninjas we've grown up with are ruthless killing machines that rarely say a word. I think those are better off with a high wisdom than a high charisma. Alert and wise rather than charming and suave.
Thanks for the notes and good luck with the playtest.
I think this divide is playing a part in the reception of all three new classes. For me Ninjas, at least some members of a Ninja clan, should be charismatic infiltrators and for me, part of the reason the class should be dropped. Basically, I believe a Ninja Clan should be made up of members of the sneakier base classes like Rogue, Ranger and Bard as active agents with some Wizards and Oracles providing magical support.
If we go the other way we create clans of supernatural 'monsters', much like the L5R rpg ninja, which was cool and interesting but not playable and was never meant to be.
Question for Jason. The Ninja and Gunslinger have been controversial and the reception of the Samurai has been less then enthusiastic. Is there any chance one or all these classes will be dropped or the supplement delayed, something I would honestly prefer to what we have now?
P.S. I'm going to make point to try two of these three classes in order to be fair.
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Director of Games
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Question for Jason. The Ninja and Gunslinger have been controversial and the reception of the Samurai has been less then enthusiastic. Is there any chance one or all these classes will be dropped or the supplement delayed, something I would honestly prefer to what we have now?
P.S. I'm going to make point to try two of these three classes in...
No. The classes are set and the supplement will not be delayed. I think folks need to remember that these are a relatively slim part of a rather large book filled with options for nearly every character.
Lets not lose sight of that.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing