A two part "does this make sense" question:
I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent the first part other than common sense, but what's to stop me from using my greatclub with a Scabbard of Vigor (apg 309)? Are there any kind of limitations on what can and can't be put into a scabbard? There are references in other scabbard items to what can be put in them (ie Scabbard of Keen Edges, core 529) so can I assume if there are no limitations listed in the item that there are none?
The second part: As a druid I can't use shillelagh on a magical club so my thought was this would be a nice way around it. The only thing I can find regarding this is "A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. (core 467)" Which reads to me that a magical weapon has an enhancement bonus, not that any weapon with an enhancement bonus is magical. So the question is, does the enhancement bonus provided by the Scabbard make it a magical weapon?
Statik
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A two part "does this make sense" question:
I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent the first part other than common sense, but what's to stop me from using my greatclub with a Scabbard of Vigor (apg 309)? Are there any kind of limitations on what can and can't be put into a scabbard? There are references in other scabbard items to what can be put in them (ie Scabbard of Keen Edges, core 529) so can I assume if there are no limitations listed in the item that there are none?
The second part: As a druid I can't use shillelagh on a magical club so my thought was this would be a nice way around it. The only thing I can find regarding this is "A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. (core 467)" Which reads to me that a magical weapon has an enhancement bonus, not that any weapon with an enhancement bonus is magical. So the question is, does the enhancement bonus provided by the Scabbard make it a magical weapon?
Statik
1. Any weapon that qualifies (so no keen clubs). If it doesn't list a restriction, its not there. So unsheath that greatclub and take a whack.
2. A keen (ala scabbard) weapon isn't technically magic unless you have a +1 or better enhancement on it. So that non-magic sword that came out of a scabbard of keen edges still isn't considered magic and doesn't get the benefits of a magic weapon (hp, hardness, resisting sunder, overcoming DR), but it still gets the benefit of keen (better crit range)
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If it physically can't be put into the scabard, it's not going to work. A scabbard is a long thin container for a blade. I don't see how you're putting a great club into it. Also as a general rule you can't apply a property to a weapon if it's not elegible. the keen property is for edged weapons only.A two part "does this make sense" question:
I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent the first part other than common sense, but what's to stop me from using my greatclub with a Scabbard of Vigor (apg 309)? Are there any kind of limitations on what can and can't be put into a scabbard? There are references in other scabbard items to what can be put in them (ie Scabbard of Keen Edges, core 529) so can I assume if there are no limitations listed in the item that there are none?
How do I put a 10ft ladder into a bag of holding?
How does a magical ring fit any size humanoid?
The game is magic and the magic adapts.
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A two part "does this make sense" question:
I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent the first part other than common sense, but what's to stop me from using my greatclub with a Scabbard of Vigor (apg 309)? Are there any kind of limitations on what can and can't be put into a scabbard? There are references in other scabbard items to what can be put in them (ie Scabbard of Keen Edges, core 529) so can I assume if there are no limitations listed in the item that there are none?
Statik
As for the first question I would allow it, from a rules point of view although we would half to work something out on the fluff.
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If it physically can't be put into the scabard, it's not going to work. A scabbard is a long thin container for a blade. I don't see how you're putting a great club into it. Also as a general rule you can't apply a property to a weapon if it's not elegible. the keen property is for edged weapons only.
They currently make Scabbards for police batons so I would think that a scabbard of vigor could be made for a club.
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They currently make Scabbards for police batons so I would think that a scabbard of vigor could be made for a club.If it physically can't be put into the scabard, it's not going to work. A scabbard is a long thin container for a blade. I don't see how you're putting a great club into it. Also as a general rule you can't apply a property to a weapon if it's not elegible. the keen property is for edged weapons only.
The only thing those scabbards (assuming they're even called that) have in common is the name. By default, unless it's specifified the standard scabbard is for a bladed weapon... you can't shove a club into it, and they don't morph.
Which is why I said 'scabbard of vigor could be made for a club' and not 'scabbard of vigor would work for a club' in my game I would rule that it had to be made specifically for a club, and have the (club) descriptor attached to it. Sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier
This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it.
Also, your quote work for the scabbard of keen edges, which is where it is copied from, as to have a keen edge, you need a sharpened edge, but we are looking at a scabbard of vigor, which does not require a shapened edge for its bonus. If anything, 'the shrink or enlarge to accommodate any similar weapon' part of the same quote is contricticting what you are saying (that it doesn't morph to fit the weapon placed into it)
The text of the item itself is the final decider.This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it.
That's not text for the Scabbard of Vigor. The Scabbard of Vigor very distinctly does *not* specify a bladed weapon.
I think that you are quite limiting yourself by the word scabbard.
Here, let me create you a new magic item, really quick. I promise it's completely balanced.
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Weapon Holder of Vigor
This item functions just like Scabbard of Vigor, but may explicitly hold any weapon.
____________________________________
There, now it doesn't matter whether the weapon is bladed or not.
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Here, let me create you a new magic item
That's not a fair resolution if you stick to RAW. Using that logic, I could just as easily create a "Weapon Holder of Impact" that grants an increased critical range to bludgeoning weapons. This would get me past the restriction inherent with a Scabbard of Keen Edge.
What the OP is asking is if his scenario works within the existing RAW.
Here, let me create you a new magic itemThat's not a fair resolution if you stick to RAW. Using that logic, I could just as easily create a "Weapon Holder of Impact" that grants an increased critical range to bludgeoning weapons. This would get me past the restriction inherent with a Scabbard of Keen Edge.
What the OP is asking is if his scenario works within the existing RAW.
The point I was making was that you're getting stuck on one word in the name of the item. The text of the item does not in any way restrict the items that may be used in it.
Once per day, as part of the action of drawing forth the weapon held by the scabbard, the wearer can order it to endow the weapon with an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The duration of the effect depends on the desired enhancement bonus for the weapon.
If the item were named the Paperclip of Vigor and had the exact same item and ability text, would you tell me that you could only use it with sheets of paper?
The item text does not say blades only. It says weapon. RAW does not restrict what can go into it.
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IMO, this is another case of missing language. I believe that the develops intended all scabbards to work the same way. That would be a reasonable assumption. Therefore, a Scabbard of Vigor is not intended to be used with a club. That being said, I don't like that idea, but, by RAW, it is what I think is the case. I would have liked to have seen the 3.5 property of "impact" make it's way into the APG so a greatclub is just as effective as a keen greataxe or greatsword.
So, the real question is, can I put my BOW in a scabbard of vigor?
The description only says "weapon." It's magic. What's stopping me putting my bow in it?
So, the real question is, can I put my BOW in a scabbard of vigor?
The description only says "weapon." It's magic. What's stopping me putting my bow in it?
Wouldn't you have to put arrows in it, instead?
Arrows are "ammunition" bows are "weapons"
Wouldn't you have to put arrows in it, instead?So, the real question is, can I put my BOW in a scabbard of vigor?
The description only says "weapon." It's magic. What's stopping me putting my bow in it?
Bows, crossbows, slings and guns grant ammunition fired with them their enchantments.
If the text of the item has no specific limitation, you can use it with all weapons. Bow, spear, fist, doesn´t matter.
@Hayato, that's how I see it. I'd allow it as a GM.
Too bad my druid already has a belt of dexterity, or I'd buy this thing...
Usable by monks?
LOL, if a monk's whole body is a weapon, I suppose they could sleep in one...
RAI : No, you can only put blades in scabbards.
RAW : Yep, it just says weapon with no other limitations, so a monk could stick his fist in the scabbard and then pull it out to get Keen on it. I think this is a situation where it's a GM thing to step in and keep things from getting silly. :)
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For the monk why do i picture him getting it sloted as gloves and everytime he ends up needing the boost in a fight and pulling his gloves off with some comment about "the gloves coming off"
RAI : No, you can only put blades in scabbards.
RAW : Yep, it just says weapon with no other limitations, so a monk could stick his fist in the scabbard and then pull it out to get Keen on it. I think this is a situation where it's a GM thing to step in and keep things from getting silly. :)
Probably so. I don't think it should be a belt slot item anyway, it should be slotless and hang on a belt. It's not overpowered in any way but if you have a belt of strength you can't use it. Don't see the rationale behind that.
For the monk why do i picture him getting it sloted as gloves and everytime he ends up needing the boost in a fight and pulling his gloves off with some comment about "the gloves coming off"
+1
RAI : No, you can only put blades in scabbards.
RAW : Yep, it just says weapon with no other limitations, so a monk could stick his fist in the scabbard and then pull it out to get Keen on it. I think this is a situation where it's a GM thing to step in and keep things from getting silly. :)
Since the scabbard of keen edges says only blade stuff no.
But the scabbard of vigor doesn´t mention blades, only weapons, so it functions with fists that count as weapons (or feet or whatever).Arguably natural attacks could be excluded, therefore also fists.
But its surely ok for bows and clubs and the like.
Sorry, meant vigor, not keen.
It's a scabbard. You don't put clubs, bows, or your fists in a scabbard. You put blades in a scabbard. As for the handwaving about 'paperclip of vigor' if they made a magic item called that it would make no sense unless it were explained in the text how a paperclip gives a bonus to a weapon. This text does explain it, and it only works with bladed weapons.
Except that by a strict reading of raw, it doesn't say how it works. It just says you pull the weapon from the scabbard. (With regards to vigor).
Scabbards can be found for swords, pistols, rifles, axes. I haven't found a hammer scabbard, but if you go do an image search for 'axe scabbard' then you'll see them.
Keen Scabbard does have the wording of blades only.
There are those strange belts craftsmen sometimes wear, ever seen Tim Allen show? A belt with a scabbard for hammers, drills, etc.
There are those strange belts craftsmen sometimes wear, ever seen Tim Allen show? A belt with a scabbard for hammers, drills, etc.
Those are loops and hangers....
I own a a leather "holster" for a recurve bow with an attached quiver. It is constructed in such a way as to allow the bow to be stored while strung. When I purchased it, about 15 years ago it was referred to as a scabbard in the care and use instructions.
This is not relevant in any rules sense, it is relevant in a linguistics sense. The meaning of a word changes sometimes, over time. The arguments about the definition of scabbard are irrelevant. If the definition were to trump rules text, then the buckler of D20 games would be unavailable to archers and spellcasters as it is actually not amshield that is "buckled" to your arm. Just a thought.
Would a Scabbard of Vigor for a greatclub be gamechanging in any identifiable way?
If no, then arguing about RAW vs RAI seems unnecessary. And this is well short of the mark on the "custom wondrous items" as CORE argument.
I'd allow it.
For the love of God! Why don't you put a catapult in it, or a table leg, wand of fireballs, a golem, or a penis, becuase you can justify all of those as weapons with enough wordplay. The game developers shouldn't have to explain to you what a scabbard is or does. Get a dictionary, open it and read the description. It holds a sword. "Custom" magic items aside there should be a basic level of common sense so that not every thing needs to be specificly spelled out with exact wording. There, rant over I quite....
For the love of God! Why don't you put a catapult in it, or a table leg, wand of fireballs, a golem, or a penis, becuase you can justify all of those as weapons with enough wordplay. The game developers shouldn't have to explain to you what a scabbard is or does. Get a dictionary, open it and read the description. It holds a sword. "Custom" magic items aside there should be a basic level of common sense so that not every thing needs to be specificly spelled out with exact wording. There, rant over I quite....
Well, that certainly explains why the developers felt the need on several other scabbards, like "keen" to specifically say that work with "bladed weapons only" doesn't it?
Scabbard is a word that has been used to describe any weapon holding device. I know for a fact that they sell bow "scabbards". I've seen them. Here's one designed for a horse, just like the rifle "scabbards" that have been used for generations. If you're going to bandy words, then perhaps you should see how the word is actually USED by the people who make and sell the thing the word is describing.
For the love of God! Why don't you put a catapult in it, or a table leg, wand of fireballs, a golem, or a penis, becuase you can justify all of those as weapons with enough wordplay. The game developers shouldn't have to explain to you what a scabbard is or does. Get a dictionary, open it and read the description. It holds a sword. "Custom" magic items aside there should be a basic level of common sense so that not every thing needs to be specificly spelled out with exact wording. There, rant over I quite....Well, that certainly explains why the developers felt the need on several other scabbards, like "keen" to specifically say that work with "bladed weapons only" doesn't it?
Scabbard is a word that has been used to describe any weapon holding device. I know for a fact that they sell bow "scabbards". I've seen them. Here's one designed for a horse, just like the rifle "scabbards" that have been used for generations. If you're going to bandy words, then perhaps you should see how the word is actually USED by the people who make and sell the thing the word is describing.
Hmmm.... maybe the designers figured people would look at the other scabbard descriptions for guidance if they couldn't figure it out? Maybe they wanted to save on page count by skipping text thats would seem redundant? Maybe they figured nobody would question what a scabbard was?
So this thread gave me a great idea. I"ll get some horse barding which is "armor". Then I get a ally who is proficient in armor like myself. we both don one of those two man horse costumes. For the sake of argument I'll be the "ass". Then "we" don the barding "armor". Since there is no "printed rule" that says only one person can wear a suite of armor we could both get the bonus from the armor!
For the love of God! Why don't you put a catapult in it, or a table leg, wand of fireballs, a golem, or a penis, becuase you can justify all of those as weapons with enough wordplay. The game developers shouldn't have to explain to you what a scabbard is or does. Get a dictionary, open it and read the description. It holds a sword. "Custom" magic items aside there should be a basic level of common sense so that not every thing needs to be specificly spelled out with exact wording. There, rant over I quite....Well, that certainly explains why the developers felt the need on several other scabbards, like "keen" to specifically say that work with "bladed weapons only" doesn't it?
Scabbard is a word that has been used to describe any weapon holding device. I know for a fact that they sell bow "scabbards". I've seen them. Here's one designed for a horse, just like the rifle "scabbards" that have been used for generations. If you're going to bandy words, then perhaps you should see how the word is actually USED by the people who make and sell the thing the word is describing.
Hmmm.... maybe the designers figured people would look at the other scabbard descriptions for guidance if they couldn't figure it out? Maybe they wanted to save on page count by skipping text thats would seem redundant? Maybe they figured nobody would question what a scabbard was?
So this thread gave me a great idea. I"ll get some horse barding which is "armor". Then I get a ally who is proficient in armor like myself. we both don one of those two man horse costumes. For the sake of argument I'll be the "ass". Then "we" don the barding "armor". Since there is no "printed rule" that says only one person can wear a suite of armor we could both get the bonus from the armor!
Knock yourself out. As the GM I'd be perfectly fine in letting you play the horse's ass.
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The text of the item itself is the final decider.This scabbard can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it.
That's not text for the Scabbard of Vigor. The Scabbard of Vigor very distinctly does *not* specify a bladed weapon.
I think that you are quite limiting yourself by the word scabbard.
Here, let me create you a new magic item, really quick. I promise it's completely balanced.
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Weapon Holder of VigorThis item functions just like Scabbard of Vigor, but may explicitly hold any weapon.
____________________________________There, now it doesn't matter whether the weapon is bladed or not.
It can be balanced, but it is not the same balance of the Scabbard of vigor.
That scabbard actually don't say that it will fit different kinds of weapons, even within the same general category, so it will be made for a specific size and kind of weapons (in RL it would be even more specific, as weapons with the same name can have vastly different sizes and shapes).So it will be Scabbard of vigor (small shorsword) or Scabbard of vigor (dagger) or even Scabbard of vigor (Greataxe) but not Scabbard of vigor (resizing and reshaping for any kind of blade).
For what it's worth, I have asked my GM to allow me to create a "weapon holder" slotless item that will hold any weapon. I'll see how that goes.
If it is restricted to a bow, I think it should cost less.
Knock yourself out. As the GM I'd be perfectly fine in letting you play the horse's ass.For the love of God! Why don't you put a catapult in it, or a table leg, wand of fireballs, a golem, or a penis, becuase you can justify all of those as weapons with enough wordplay. The game developers shouldn't have to explain to you what a scabbard is or does. Get a dictionary, open it and read the description. It holds a sword. "Custom" magic items aside there should be a basic level of common sense so that not every thing needs to be specificly spelled out with exact wording. There, rant over I quite....Well, that certainly explains why the developers felt the need on several other scabbards, like "keen" to specifically say that work with "bladed weapons only" doesn't it?
Scabbard is a word that has been used to describe any weapon holding device. I know for a fact that they sell bow "scabbards". I've seen them. Here's one designed for a horse, just like the rifle "scabbards" that have been used for generations. If you're going to bandy words, then perhaps you should see how the word is actually USED by the people who make and sell the thing the word is describing.
Hmmm.... maybe the designers figured people would look at the other scabbard descriptions for guidance if they couldn't figure it out? Maybe they wanted to save on page count by skipping text thats would seem redundant? Maybe they figured nobody would question what a scabbard was?
So this thread gave me a great idea. I"ll get some horse barding which is "armor". Then I get a ally who is proficient in armor like myself. we both don one of those two man horse costumes. For the sake of argument I'll be the "ass". Then "we" don the barding "armor". Since there is no "printed rule" that says only one person can wear a suite of armor we could both get the bonus from the armor!
I may be an "ass", but I'm the ass that has one this debate. Ass-logic FTW!
I would also like to thank my coach, Webster's English Dictionary...
Yeah I checked the dictionary as well.
Adamantine Dragon pretty succinctly illustrated a link to multiple "scabbards" that hold weapons that are not blade like. Webster's is a good resource but it falls short on this. If the word is being misused, it has been misused in America for over a century, thats a precedent that even the folks at Webster's tend to recognize.
So if this is a rules as written issue, the rules Do Not firmly establish that the term scabbard can only hold a slashing weapon.
What the heck am I doing? This is a silly argument.
I would also like to thank my coach, Webster's English Dictionary...
LOL, if it makes you feel all warm and tingly inside to think you "won" a silly internet debate, by all means preen and strut and pat yourself on the back. I don't mind.
Can I put a combat scabbard, in my scabbard?
Probably a GM call, depending on the scabbard. The wording is that you can use it "as a weapon" which isn't exactly the same thing as saying it IS a weapon. But if you rule that it is a weapon, then it would have to be a bladed weapon, so I'd say yes.
Now, can I put a magic scabbard in my efficient quiver and pull the weapon out of the scabbard while it's still in the quiver?