The subject more or less says it all. Can these two stack?
The juxtapositioning makes it vague:
This ability counts as the Arcane Strike feat for meeting any prerequisites. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
I could see it going either way.
On same turn when you spend Arcane Pool points to add enhancement bonus to your weapon (swift action) you can't also active Arcane Strike (another swift action). One swift action per turn rule.
Arcane Strike feat gives you (untyped) bonus to damage, so it stacks with Arcane Pool enhancement bonuses.
Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So enhancing your weapon with abilities then later using Arcane Strike won't stack? May I ask why?
Also, it doesn't say anything in the ability about this capping at a +10 bonus in combo with what your weapon already is enchanted with. Is that an oversight or can you really use this ability to ramp up a weapon to awesome heights? Right now it looks like I can GMW a weapon to +5, and then have +14 worth of enhancements on it through what is already on there plus the Arcane Pool.
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Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I stand corrected. The wording is definitely misleading. I shall spread the gospel.
I'm curious about the reasoning, though. Is there some concern about a too high DPR with the fairly minimal amount of damage that Arcane Strike adds?
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Also, it doesn't say anything in the ability about this capping at a +10 bonus in combo with what your weapon already is enchanted with. Is that an oversight or can you really use this ability to ramp up a weapon to awesome heights? Right now it looks like I can GMW a weapon to +5, and then have +14 worth of enhancements on it through what is already on there plus the Arcane Pool.
If they don't let the Paladin do it, I suspect the Magus will also be limited to +10 total enhancement.
Director of Game Design
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Yeah, the max +10 rule is still in effect, and this ability is meant to emulate and improve upon Arcane Strike, hence the no stacking bit. I can see now that this needs some clarifications to get it there and it will be addressed in the final version.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I understand, but then isn't the Magus at a disadvantage damagewise against someone who has a +10 weapon and can use Arcane Strike at high levels? It feels like I'm being cheated out of potential damage in the long-run.
It's a nice money-saving feature, but towards the endgame it seems almost either useless or a nerf (especially if you factor in GMW as well).
Edit: I understand I can still take Arcane Strike and just use that instead, which I see happening at high levels, but in that case it makes this ability sort of doesn't meet its desired goal of improving upon and expanding arcane strike.
I understand, but then isn't the Magus at a disadvantage damagewise against someone who has a +10 weapon and can use Arcane Strike at high levels? It feels like I'm being cheated out of potential damage in the long-run.
It's a nice money-saving feature, but towards the endgame it seems almost either useless or a nerf (especially if you factor in GMW as well).
Edit: I understand I can still take Arcane Strike and just use that instead, which I see happening at high levels, but in that case it makes this ability sort of doesn't meet its desired goal of improving upon and expanding arcane strike.
Well, look at it this way, the ability allows you to add your choice of fire, cold or electricity to your attacks - quite usefull against creatures with immunities.
On the other hand you might not use arcane strike all that often at high levels:
A lot of the arcanas are swift actions, I would certainly consider investing in a lesser wand of quicken spell... let me elaborate this is just to awesome:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts
a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell
list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is
wielding as part of a melee attack. If successful, this
melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the
effects of the spell.[b] Instead of the free melee touch attack
normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting
this spell.[/b If used with spell combat, this does not grant
an additional attack.
If I am understanding the bolded text correctly, you get a free swing of your weapon with every quickened shocking grasp ^^.
I am not sure if you can cast a quickended spell get a free swing at full base attack and continue with spell combat - but it this works... ^^
So in other words, you might not miss the ability to use your swift actions.
I understand, but then isn't the Magus at a disadvantage damagewise against someone who has a +10 weapon and can use Arcane Strike at high levels? It feels like I'm being cheated out of potential damage in the long-run.
It's a nice money-saving feature, but towards the endgame it seems almost either useless or a nerf (especially if you factor in GMW as well).
Edit: I understand I can still take Arcane Strike and just use that instead, which I see happening at high levels, but in that case it makes this ability sort of doesn't meet its desired goal of improving upon and expanding arcane strike.
Honestly, the new Arcane Accuracy is a better use of your Swift action at those high levels than Arcane Strike, so I just wouldn't take the Arcane Strike feat at all any more.
Getting to add 1d6 damage to my attacks based around creatures' immunities at high levels isn't too appetizing...and even then only helps if my weapons don't already have those enhancements (many times characters who spend most of their time attacking put all 4 elemental enchants on their weapons anyways to try and max damage).
Also, with Spellstrike good point. Using a swift action to cast a 5th level spell (in a class that only goes up to 6th) is going to get unaffordable pretty quickly though.
You'd have to go Swift Shocking Grasp (for a free attack at full BAB), then Full attack with Spell Combat. That would be a pretty cool nova round (especially with a spell storing weapon), but I don't think you would be doing it all day.
Just for fun:
(Scimitar with all 4 elemental enhancements being used, presuming all attacks hit...)
Swift Spellstrike Scorching Ray = 17d6
Full attack w/haste = 20d6
Spell Combat Empowered Scorching Ray (using pool points!) = 18d6
Spell Storing Scorching Ray = 12d6
67d6 + all your enhancements and strength etc. Sounds like fun.
(Though a TWF Eldritch Knight with spell storing scimitar+kukri and spell critical vastly outdoes this...he also doesn't get heavy armor and such :p)
Needless to say, I still think Arcane Strike should probably stack with Arcane Pool weapon enhancing.
Edit: Arcane Accuracy is awesome, and needed due to only avg. BAB and -2 from spell combat. It will make power attack more feasible, though with only a one handed weapon and avg. BAB it's still kinda meh. Kinda makes me wanna play a Magus/Duelist.
Getting to add 1d6 damage to my attacks based around creatures' immunities at high levels isn't too appetizing...and even then only helps if my weapons don't already have those enhancements (many times characters who spend most of their time attacking put all 4 elemental enchants on their weapons anyways to try and max damage).
Also, with Spellstrike good point. Using a swift action to cast a 5th level spell (in a class that only goes up to 6th) is going to get unaffordable pretty quickly though.
You'd have to go Swift Shocking Grasp (for a free attack at full BAB), then Full attack with Spell Combat. That would be a pretty cool nova round (especially with a spell storing weapon), but I don't think you would be doing it all day.
Just for fun:
(Scimitar with all 4 elemental enhancements being used, presuming all attacks hit...)
Swift Spellstrike Scorching Ray = 17d6
Full attack w/haste = 20d6
Spell Combat Empowered Scorching Ray (using pool points!) = 18d6
Spell Storing Scorching Ray = 12d667d6 + all your enhancements and strength etc. Sounds like fun.
(Though a TWF Eldritch Knight with spell storing scimitar+kukri and spell critical vastly outdoes this...he also doesn't get heavy armor and such :p)
Needless to say, I still think Arcane Strike should probably stack with Arcane Pool weapon enhancing.
Edit: Arcane Accuracy is awesome, and needed due to only avg. BAB and -2 from spell combat. It will make power attack more feasible, though with only a one handed weapon and avg. BAB it's still kinda meh. Kinda makes me wanna play a Magus/Duelist.
Well I was suggesting using a rod for the cheese:
Metamagic, Quicken
Aura strong (no school); CL 17th
Slot none; Price 35,000 gp (lesser), 75,500 gp (normal), 170,000 gp (greater); Weight 5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Rod, Quicken Spell; Cost 17,500 gp (lesser), 37,750 gp (normal), 85,000 gp (greater)
That said why not enhance a secondary weapon and make it dancing?
You need a hand free for spell combat, so without some other investment in items or cheesiness, you're not going to be whipping out rods left and right.
Also, releasing a Dancing weapon take a standard action....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (and only lasts up to 4 rounds, plus it doesn't get to do much since it doesnt get your str mod, arcane accuracy, power attack, or any of that jazz. All in all, pretty worthless.
You need a hand free for spell combat, so without some other investment in items or cheesiness, you're not going to be whipping out rods left and right.
Also, releasing a Dancing weapon take a standard action....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (and only lasts up to 4 rounds, plus it doesn't get to do much since it doesnt get your str mod, arcane accuracy, power attack, or any of that jazz. All in all, pretty worthless.
I could be wrong, but caster like wizards, use the rods when they prepare spells, right?
Ok dancing weapons are out, but you can still save a lot of money by using a nonmagical weapon, add greater magic weapon and vorpal it.... then sell it to a trader within the minute^^
I know you're being cheeky, but for the fun of it...
Any trader buying items of that magnitude takes more than a minute to inspect them and cast the appropriate spells/consult with underlings. Also, anyone with that much money and magic lying around has protection, and that protection is usually not something you want to run afoul of, even at the highest levels (or else your DM is asking for problems....my players know never to mess with shopkeepers :)
As for Rods, you have to hold them to use them. They are not used when you prep your spells.....they are used to modify them when you cast them and must be in hand.
...is Arcane Strike even used as a prerequisite for anything?
...is Arcane Strike even used as a prerequisite for anything?
It might be for a new feat that they're adding in.
...is Arcane Strike even used as a prerequisite for anything?If it's not already, then it's a good bet that it will be in Ultimate Magic!
Seems all signs point to yes.
At a gut level I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to stack. I actually don't see a reason to give out the preque for free this way. I know some people will cry feat tax, but to me Regis seems teo build into oe kind of combat style for the magus. Focused on magical boosted melee over combat casting assured (taking combat casting / casting focused feats and penalizing your attack roll).
If thats the way its going to roll why not just boot Arcane Strike in for free. A plus to damage without enhancmnet bonus effects, at no cost in arcane pool. Going crazy make it a last a full minute per swift action instead needing to keep it up every round.
IMO, cut the free preque and let them stack.
IMO, cut the free preque and let them stack.
+1
+1
IMO, cut the free preque and let them stack.
+2
The enhancement bonus only lets them keep up with a full BAB character. Bards get just as much bonus, simultaneously buff allies, and get to use arcane strike. The wording is completely unclear in not allowing arcane strike to stack, and I cannot fathom a reason to not let the abilities work together. The Magus does not have the DPR to make this an issue, considering his weapon restrictions.
Piggy-backing off of Caineach, the Arcane Duelist Bard archtype is very similar to the Magus, atleast when it comes to the +1 to weapons abilities.
If everything fails, go two weapon fighting enhance one weapon with your class feature and one with arcane strike. Add the quick draw feat and you could afford to shear your off hand weapon to use spell combat.
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The enhancement bonus only lets them keep up with a full BAB character. Bards get just as much bonus, simultaneously buff allies, and get to use arcane strike. The wording is completely unclear in not allowing arcane strike to stack, and I cannot fathom a reason to not let the abilities work together. The Magus does not have the DPR to make this an issue, considering his weapon restrictions.
Keep in mind that, if the bard is actually playing in a party (like 99.9% of bards will be), the magus will be stacking that bards bonus to-hit and damage as well. Plus, the bard can't give ability enhancements to weapons and Inspire Courage at the same time. With this, the Bard is working with Inspire Courage + Arcane Strike, and the Magus is working with Inspire Courage and a rough equivalent of Arcane Strike + an extra (on average)+2 to hit thanks to it being an enhancement bonus. Combine this with the Accuracy Arcana and you've got a pretty accurate attacker who also has damaging spells to stack onto his melee damage (a feature the bard lacks in large quantities, but is not entirely unknown, thanks to spell-storing and the Thunderous Drums spell).
The enhancement bonus only lets them keep up with a full BAB character. Bards get just as much bonus, simultaneously buff allies, and get to use arcane strike. The wording is completely unclear in not allowing arcane strike to stack, and I cannot fathom a reason to not let the abilities work together. The Magus does not have the DPR to make this an issue, considering his weapon restrictions.Keep in mind that, if the bard is actually playing in a party (like 99.9% of bards will be), the magus will be stacking that bards bonus to-hit and damage as well. Plus, the bard can't give ability enhancements to weapons and Inspire Courage at the same time. With this, the Bard is working with Inspire Courage + Arcane Strike, and the Magus is working with Inspire Courage and a rough equivalent of Arcane Strike + an extra (on average)+2 to hit thanks to it being an enhancement bonus. Combine this with the Accuracy Arcana and you've got a pretty accurate attacker who also has damaging spells to stack onto his melee damage (a feature the bard lacks in large quantities, but is not entirely unknown, thanks to spell-storing and the Thunderous Drums spell).
Oh no, we can't let arcane strike on him because it would be broken when he is buffed by the bard? Not a good arguement. Everyone gets solid buffs from the bard. The fighter will be stacking the bards bonus to hit and damage as well. Those bonuses are signs that the bard class is powerful though, not that the magus is. Without arcane strike, the magus cannot buff himself up to deal equal damage to the bard at low levels, and that is wrong IMO, since the bard also buffs allies.
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Oh no, we can't let arcane strike on him because it would be broken when he is buffed by the bard? Not a good arguement. Everyone gets solid buffs from the bard. The fighter will be stacking the bards bonus to hit and damage as well. Those bonuses are signs that the bard class is powerful though, not that the magus is. Without arcane strike, the magus cannot buff himself up to deal equal damage to the bard at low levels, and that is wrong IMO, since the bard also buffs allies.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that you can't REALLY factor Inspire Courage into the equation because it works as a group buff. Therefore, we have to look at the magus ability compared with it's obvious counterpart, Arcane Strike. When it comes to overall utility, the magus ability is superior. When it comes to effectiveness, it is superior in that it increases the magus's chance to hit as well as increasing damage.
I don't mean to imply that the argument that the Magus is equal to the bard when he is buffed by the bard is a valid one. I'm saying that the Bard buff, Inspire Courage, is a "universal" buff, and therefore, in a realistic situation, we can either assume the Magus has it, just as a bard does, or does not, since there is no bard present. Essentially, while the magus and bard are both playing in the same group, they should strive to make it imperative that they never leave each other.
Again, let me state, I am not implying that I think that the Magus should not be able to use Arcane Strike. I'm simply saying that, as written, it's not a bad substitute for it.
Oh no, we can't let arcane strike on him because it would be broken when he is buffed by the bard? Not a good arguement. Everyone gets solid buffs from the bard. The fighter will be stacking the bards bonus to hit and damage as well. Those bonuses are signs that the bard class is powerful though, not that the magus is. Without arcane strike, the magus cannot buff himself up to deal equal damage to the bard at low levels, and that is wrong IMO, since the bard also buffs allies.That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that you can't REALLY factor Inspire Courage into the equation because it works as a group buff. Therefore, we have to look at the magus ability compared with it's obvious counterpart, Arcane Strike. When it comes to overall utility, the magus ability is superior. When it comes to effectiveness, it is superior in that it increases the magus's chance to hit as well as increasing damage.
I don't mean to imply that the argument that the Magus is equal to the bard when he is buffed by the bard is a valid one. I'm saying that the Bard buff, Inspire Courage, is a "universal" buff, and therefore, in a realistic situation, we can either assume the Magus has it, just as a bard does, or does not, since there is no bard present. Essentially, while the magus and bard are both playing in the same group, they should strive to make it imperative that they never leave each other.
Again, let me state, I am not implying that I think that the Magus should not be able to use Arcane Strike. I'm simply saying that, as written, it's not a bad substitute for it.
Arcane strike is not the obvious equivalent though. Inspire Courage is. The Bard and the Magus fill similar roles in the party, so it is comprable to compare them as if they are not in the same party. And you just proved my point. The bard not only buffs himself up, but also buffs all his allies and gets to use arcane strike. The Magus only buffs himself (though for longer), but does not get to use arcane strike, which brings his solo damage lower and he is not helping his allies. This is offset by his ability to cast a spell while attacking, but at low levels that is a small trick usuable only a couple times per day.
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Here's the thing about Inspire Courage. The best thing about it is the fact that it affects allies. The reason it's such a fantastic buff is because it affects allies. By itself it's good, yes, but as far as damage goes I wouldn't say it outdoes the damage capabilities of the Magus. By the time you hit level 4 you should be at about 6 Arcane Pool Points per day. That's enough not only to allow you to keep up the magic weapon ability of Arcane Pool, but to give yourself a couple of extra 1st level spells per day (barring Pearls of Power, which I would highly recommend for a Magus anyways).
As far as combat capabilities go, yes, the Magus is a bit more self-centered than the bard. However, I never got the impression that the Magus was intended to be buffing the party. Sure, they can throw out some of the standards like Haste, and some debuffs and crowd control (Black Tentacles and Slow), but the Magus is really marketed as being able to do damage via melee and spellcasting. Yes, the benefits are going to be pretty minimal at low levels, but so is the Bard's Music. What it really boils down to is whether or not the ability to couple offensive spells with melee attacks out-damages the bonus bards get from Arcane Strike (using your comparison, which I don't quite agree with). Considering the Magus gains an arsenal of Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Scorching Ray, Shocking Grasp (easily intensified if need be), and several utility spells, I would think that the above damage spells would more than out-do the +2-3 bonus damage from Arcane Strike. Remember, even when a melee bard gets multiple attacks, there isn't a surefire way to guarantee they'll hit. Yeah, the Magus isn't much better off, but those spells are far more likely to cause a respectable amount of damage.
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Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingThis Confuses me. If Arcane Bond from the first play test was allowed to stack with Arcane Strike, why would the ability that replaces it not stack?
Edit:
Consider the following, there are two different 5 man parties, both consist of a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard one has a magus as a fifth wheel, the other a bard. If this bard is an arcane duellist then in combat they both fill the same general roll (ignoring out of combat where the bard can exceptionally shine.)
So lets say they both have a 16 STR and +2 Rapiers, just to simplify it.Magus:
BaB: +6/+1
STR: +3
ATK: +2 Rapier(Arcane Pool +2): +13/+8 (1d6+7)Bard:
BaB: +6/+1
STR: +3
ATK: +2 Rapier(Inspire Courage +2): +13/+8 (1d6+9)
[2 damage from Arcane Strike]This Bothers me for a number of reasons.
The first being that this supposedly supreme merger of sword and spell can be out damage by someone who talks to people for a living, the second is that if the cleric wanted to get down and dirty (War Domain?) he could get at least this powerful if not more at 8th level and still have the ability to throw Arcane Strike into the mix.
The second reason is that it feels a whole lot like a big middle finger to tell any player that they can't stack an untyped bonus with all their existing bonuses, especially when every other class that can cast spells can do it if the want.
If in house or any play testing has clearly shown this to be devastatingly game breaking I would personally love to see it.
also just as a side note I personally feel that +x to 1 target for a minute per level is equal to +x to 4-6 people for 1 round maintained
The thing is, the Magus also has an arsenal of offensive spells at his disposal, as well as a number of defensive spells the bard doesn't get access to (Stoneskin?). Additionally, if you feel that the damage discrepancy is a big deal, remember that you can always change that +2 to hit and damage to a +1 to hit and damage and an extra d6 of elemental damage, averaging out to about the same amount of damage at a very slightly lower chance to hit (which, again, can be fixed with the most awesome arcana when you need to). Yeah, it's not quite as nice as Inspire Courage for the group, but remember that you have the ability to tack on an extra 5d6 from shocking grasp, 4d6-12d6 from Scorching Ray, an a number of other spells which actually give the Magus a pretty decent edge over the Bard.
*Edit: Also, Clerics/Druids/Oracles/Inquisitors don't qualify for Arcane Strike, as the damage is based off of your arcane spellcaster level, and requires the ability to cast Arcane Magic to even take the feat. If your Cleric/Druid/Oracle/Inquisitor is getting any sort of decent damage from Arcane Strike, you probably need to dump those levels and replace them with more of the class you took to qualify for it (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard).
Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingThis Confuses me. If Arcane Bond from the first play test was allowed to stack with Arcane Strike, why would the ability that replaces it not stack?
Edit:
Consider the following, there are two different 5 man parties, both consist of a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard one has a magus as a fifth wheel, the other a bard. If this bard is an arcane duellist then in combat they both fill the same general roll (ignoring out of combat where the bard can exceptionally shine.)
So lets say they both have a 16 STR and +2 Rapiers, just to simplify it.Magus:
BaB: +6/+1
STR: +3
ATK: +2 Rapier(Arcane Pool +2): +13/+8 (1d6+7)Bard:
BaB: +6/+1
STR: +3
ATK: +2 Rapier(Inspire Courage +2): +13/+8 (1d6+9)
[2 damage from Arcane Strike]This Bothers me for a number of reasons.
The first being that this supposedly supreme merger of sword and spell can be out damage by someone who talks to people for a living, the second is that if the cleric wanted to get down and dirty (War Domain?) he could get at least this powerful if not more at 8th level and still have the ability to throw Arcane Strike into the mix.
The second reason is that it feels a whole lot like a big middle finger to tell any player that they can't stack an untyped bonus with all their existing bonuses, especially when every other class that can cast spells can do it if the want.
If in house or any play testing has clearly shown this to be devastatingly game breaking I would personally love to see it.
also just as a side note I personally feel that +x to 1 target for a minute per level is equal to +x to 4-6 people for 1 round maintained
If they are in the same party the magus and the bard to the same damage. The other difference is that the bard spent a feat, where the magus still has an open feat to use on something else to increase his damage.
IMHO they don't need to stack.
Arcane Strike is not meant to break the +10 ceiling no matter WHO is using it. By the rules Arcane Strike can stack UNTIL that limit is reached.I understand, but then isn't the Magus at a disadvantage damagewise against someone who has a +10 weapon and can use Arcane Strike at high levels? It feels like I'm being cheated out of potential damage in the long-run.
Bzzzzzt. I'm sorry, that's incorrect. Arcane Strike is an untyped damage bonus that caps at +5. It says nothing about stacking or how it interacts with magic weapons.
The Magus ability is fine as a pre-req, but should stack if the Magus takes arcane strike. The Magus is already low on the DPR scale.
It's a cool class, but I'm not sold at all that it would be better to have in a group than a bard (as a 5th character.....and I don't think I could really argue for making it part of a good four man group at all...at least the bard can be a functional healer if you have no cleric).
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How about give them Arcane Strike as abonus feat at first level. That way they can use it without Arcane pool. In the first level discrption of arcane pool add the text that when a Magus activates Arcane Strike they may spend a point to provide the benift that it has in the playtest doc. Then include some text saying that while the enchancement duration is active you cant't reactivate Arcane Strike.
And if they are not in the same party?
I am not following this "break" +10. I don't see peope taking issue with an Eldrich Knight with Arcane Bond weapon using Arcane Strike to pass some kind of hypothetical +10 to damage.
I don't see people objecting to a Bard using a Magical Bow with Magic Arrows, while Singing, and using Arcane Strike. This kind of self-buffing Archer Bard is even on of the accepted builds on this forum.
The damage output on pure melee comes out on par with a Bard doing the same thing, basically playing at Fighter/Sorcerer. How is this a problem? The Magus is limited to Melee this way
And Clerics, Inquisters, and other Divine Casters can use heavy armor and full without issue.
Arcane Strike is not meant to break the +10 ceiling no matter WHO is using it. By the rules Arcane Strike can stack UNTIL that limit is reached.I understand, but then isn't the Magus at a disadvantage damagewise against someone who has a +10 weapon and can use Arcane Strike at high levels? It feels like I'm being cheated out of potential damage in the long-run.
Arcane Strike gives an untyped bonus, it does indeed stack with a +10 weapon. Sylvanite was mentioning it to compair a magus with his enhanced +5 sword against a character with a standard +10 weapon.
And if they are not in the same party?
I am not following this "break" +10. I don't see peope taking issue with an Eldrich Knight with Arcane Bond weapon using Arcane Strike to pass some kind of hypothetical +10 to damage.
I don't see people objecting to a Bard using a Magical Bow with Magic Arrows, while Singing, and using Arcane Strike. This kind of self-buffing Archer Bard is even on of the accepted builds on this forum.
The damage output on pure melee comes out on par with a Bard doing the same thing, basically playing at Fighter/Sorcerer. How is this a problem? The Magus is limited to Melee this way
And Clerics, Inquisters, and other Divine Casters can use heavy armor and full without issue.
The point was you were comparing apples to oranges, or rather a selfish-buff (apple) to a party-buff (orange).
While a magus does not have a bard's party buff, he has spells he can cast while he attacks, doubling his action economy. AND he hasn't even spent a feat yet, so he could take his feat and rather than purchase Arcane Strike, he could pick up something else to help his DPR/Defense/tactical options, while the bard has already spent his feat. By the level being used in the example (5th), the magus could be putting flaming on his weapon, along with casting chill touch and adding that damage as well. So I don't think he is really hurting for damage compared to the bard in the other party.
Actually what needs clarification is how the Arcane Pool stacks Magic Weapons when it comes to adding abilities.
All Magic Weapons Cap at +5 atk/dmg. The Magus power doesn't pass this. What isn't clear is how much of the +5 in special abilities can a Magus contribute to a weapon. Can a Magus take a +5 sword and add Shock/Frost/Flaming? Can a Magus break the normal +10 total bonus? Say a +5 Vorpal sword and add Shock Frost Flaming to it?
The way it's worded now suggests that if the weapon has a total enhancement bonus of +5 or higher the Magus can't add anything.
I asked that and had it answered in another thread. The +10 cap stands according to Jason.
I don't have the heart to sift for the quote, but, their ability does not let them exceed the cap of +10.
So at endgame it allows a little versatility, but basically not much else.
I asked that and had it answered in another thread. The +10 cap stands according to Jason.
I don't have the heart to sift for the quote, but, their ability does not let them exceed the cap of +10.
So at endgame it allows a little versatility, but basically not much else.
Magus arcana cover the distance here, I think. To pump up your weapon to a +10 only costs 1 arcane pool. You spend the other points for things like arcane accuracy and the like. perhaps there could be another Arcana that aids in damage, perhaps flat out doubling the enhancement bonus of a weapon, or adding some other fluff damage bonus.
The point was you were comparing apples to oranges, or rather a selfish-buff (apple) to a party-buff (orange).
How many combat focused Bards have you played? That was almost all I used to play back in 3.5. Trust me, the intended use is selfish on the Bards end it just so happens to spill over on other marital characters.
It is not Apples and Oranges on that front. It is numerically identical on an indivula bases. The gives himself upto a +5 to hit and damage on any weapon(s) (including ranged). The Magus gives himself +5 to hit and damage on only single melee weapon. The Bard +5 Stacks with all Magical Weapons. The Magus caps at +5. A Bard can take and use Arcane Strike, as of now the Magus cannot. A Bard can reach +10 atk, +15 dmg, can Two-Weapon fight or used Ranged weapons.
With extream sarcasm... Whooho the Magus gets extra blaster magic I'm so excited!
For what is argued as the worst use of arcane spells abilities. The bard can drop battlefield control which is regarded as a higher value arcane use. At best a wash in this comparison.
There is no reason that Magus should play second fiddle in direct melee based damage to a Bard! I'm not saying the Magus should get Arcane Strike free, he should be able to take it like any Arcane Warrior (Bard, EKnight, etc) and get the full use of it if he wishes.
Magus arcana cover the distance here, I think. To pump up your weapon to a +10 only costs 1 arcane pool. You spend the other points for things like arcane accuracy and the like. perhaps there could be another Arcana that aids in damage, perhaps flat out doubling the enhancement bonus of a weapon, or adding some other fluff damage bonus.I asked that and had it answered in another thread. The +10 cap stands according to Jason.
I don't have the heart to sift for the quote, but, their ability does not let them exceed the cap of +10.
So at endgame it allows a little versatility, but basically not much else.
Except that you are running out of swift actions. You're better off just using Greater Magic Weapon to get your enhancement bonus up, and just enchanting the stuff you want on a +1 weapon. The Magus's ability is nice only if you need to vary your enhancements for some reason.
Arcane Accuracy is awesome, but then you have no swift actions, so other arcanas for damage won't work in conjunction with it. Plus, you don't get to quicken spells when you use these swift action options.
Obviously, same goes for arcane strike, but it's solid damage that is multiplied by crits, and often comes out ahead of quickening a spell for damage at least.
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Director of Game Design
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Folks,
Lets all calm it down just a bit. I am looking into a number of issues. I may have mispoke on the Arcane Strike issue and this ability may not be working as intended. I am investigating exact language.
I am thinking that the class ability might lose its connection to Arcane Strike, but I am still investigating.
I am thinking that Arcane Strike will probably still have nothing to do with the +10 cap on magic items, but I am still investigating.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Forgive me if I just don't get it, but I still don't get the argument that Inspire Courage > (insert class ability here).
As I posted above, unless one purposefully splits the party, the idea is that everyone stays together. In that instance, either everyone benefits from Bardic Music, or no-one does. This, to me, seems to indicate that a situation will never come up in which a bard is dealing "significantly" more damage than a Magus, because the party fighter is, probably , dealing "significantly" more damage than the bard, thanks to the bard buffs. If you're going to compare how the two do in combat, put them both in the same fight! If there isn't a bard at the table, then the Magus doesn't have to compare his damage to a bard because he isn't there!
Additionally, the Magus gets bonus damage spells, many of them touch-based. Normally, the philosophy amongst wizards is that spells that deal hit point damage are, unless incredibly powerful, not an adequate use of an action. However, consider this:
The Magus may very well be the most powerful mobile combatant in the game. Not only his he getting melee attacks (not a lot of damage, but it's still damage), but he can add on a mess of damage dice along with it, which, due to the prevalence of touch attacks, are very likely to hit (with his higher than wizard attack bonus), and do a decent amount of damage. At level 7, he's easily throwing out Scorching Ray with his attack, throwing another ~28 damage onto his attack. In addition, he can have his weapon enhanced at a +2 higher enhancement bonus than the rest of the party, which he can either designate towards his hit chance or, if he's feeling lucky, throw on Flaming/Icy/Shocking Burst, which all do more damage on a crit than Arcane Strike of equal level would (on average, anyways). That's not even counting Spell Combat, in which he could throw out another damaging spell and still make a full attack (preferably hasted) with his main-hand weapon, though Haste, much like Inspire Courage, really should be benefiting the bard, too.
I'm not saying that Evocation is the best magic in the game. I know the number can be low. However, when it comes to adding burst damage, adding a spell can be just like adding an extra melee attack, if not more so, depending on your choices. Combine all this with the Magus ability to additionally cast party buffs like Haste and Fly, in addition to Black Tentacles and Slow as debuffs, and you've at least got an effective character.