Okay, just finished reading the bit about Asmodeus in Mother of Flies. While I applaud Paizo for generally trying to think outside the box, all I can say as far as paladins serving Asmodeus is "Are you high?" Seriously. That bit of writing was just terrible. Really.
|
Why would asmodeus not want paladins?
In PF pallys are fantastic combatants who follow orders. Using good patsys to combat chaos sounds appropos for the Prince of Lies.
Remember, paladins are not tied to a deity, unlike clerics. They must be LG and follow the Code, but beyond that it's up to them.
Also, they did say the only ones not to fall are those who die young.
Finally, I can't think of a better anti demon weapon than hell-trained pallys.
-t
Why would asmodeus not want paladins?
In PF pallys are fantastic combatants who follow orders. Using good patsys to combat chaos sounds appropos for the Prince of Lies.
Remember, paladins are not tied to a deity, unlike clerics. They must be LG and follow the Code, but beyond that it's up to them.
Also, they did say the only ones not to fall are those who die young.
Finally, I can't think of a better anti demon weapon than hell-trained pallys.
-t
I'm sure Asmodeus would love to have a paladin working for him. I would imagine paladins are pretty sweet when they fall.
It's the paladin that should look at Admodeus and think "Not for all the tea in China...er, Tian Xia." The only paladin that would work for Asmodeus would be severely deluded or in major denial. I can buy Hellknights being more interested in Hell's unwavering enforcement of law and thus not being LE. A paladin? Nope. Too many compromises would be needed, and the paladin's code doesn't have a lot of wiggle room.
|
Yes, but following the tenents to Asmodeus is not being GOOD. Asmoedeus is EVIL! Alignments in worlds like Pathfinder are not subjective, they are absolutes. This is why spells like detect good and protection from evil work the way they do.
It is not a matter of philosophy and justifying one's actions... it is a fantastical truth of one's ethics and morality. Being Lawful Good means that one has to be a good person. They cannot perform evil deeds and maintain that alignment. They must be righteous without being self-righteous; they must be honorable, truthful, decent, noble in heart and deed. Asmodeus is the kind of diety that encourages cruelty, wickedness, deceit, and selfishness. It would be against the code of the paladins to follow a god like Asmodeus.
The piece didn't talk about people being unwitting pawns of evil or there being a PR campaign presenting Asmodeus as anything other than what he is. It tries to justify paladins serving an openly evil entity that everyone knows is evil.
I say thee nay.
It doesn't bug me that much more than the thought of paladins of Chaotic Good deities, and that's been around here and there in most published D&D settings, so why not the main setting for Pathfinder?
There is a significant difference between a Chaotic Good deity, though that is goofy. Asmodeus is evil. EEEEEVIL!!!
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want paladins of Asmodeus in your game... this gives you a way to do so... but personally I agree. Paladins are lawful good. You'd no more likely see a paladin of Asmodeus than you would a Paladin of Desna. Were we doing a second go with this article, I would have pressed to not include Asmodean paladins, but the idea is... unusual... enough that we decided to test the waters anyway.
I've no plans of ever putting a Paladin of Asmodeus npc in a Pathfinder adventure, in any case, so you don't have to worry about that.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
You'd no more likely see a paladin of Asmodeus than you would a Paladin of Desna.
I played a Paladin of Desna. He was my first PbP character and was made using 3.5 Rules (he was a build concept I was toying with but didn't get quite right, I hope to revisit the build someday and get it right).
Personally I don't have a problem with Paladins of either Good (but not Lawful) or Lawful (but not Good) Deities. As long as they have a belief in one of the aspects (Domains) of that Deity and stay true to their Ideals as a Paladin it's fine with me.
That being said, I i[]am[/i] a big fan of Paladins of different Alignments , so that colours my view somewhat.
And Sune (Forgotten Realms goddess of Love and Beauty) is Chaotic to the core. Selune (FR's moon goddess), too, but there's a history of both of them having paladins.
Selune I can not think of, but Sune which has paladins is also the goddess of marriage a non chaotic and orderly union so it does fit.
Okay, just finished reading the bit about Asmodeus in Mother of Flies. While I applaud Paizo for generally trying to think outside the box, all I can say as far as paladins serving Asmodeus is "Are you high?" Seriously. That bit of writing was just terrible. Really.
Agreed this would never be allowed as it violates the LG requirement of a paladin
Back in first edition, we had the anti-paladin, the CE version. Then, somewhere along the line, a paladin for each alignment came up. Some of them were quite interesting.
I'd kind of like to see something like that again.
|
Back in first edition, we had the anti-paladin, the CE version. Then, somewhere along the line, a paladin for each alignment came up. Some of them were quite interesting.
I'd kind of like to see something like that again.
Advanced Players Guide is scheduled, AFIK, to have Anti-Paladins and Paladin-like Templars for other alignments.
|
|
Personal opinion here but Im in the 'DEAR GOD NO!' group.
HOWEVER if various alignment paladins are constructed, then the powers and basic strengths of each should be best based on how close to Lawful good they are.
i.e. A LG paladin is just like normal.
LN would be somewhat weaker but the code of behavior will be a little looser (no good acts requirement)
all the way down to a CE Paladin whose powers are little more than a slight increase over a regular fighter's.
Therefore the less of a code of behavior is required the weaker the paladin's abilities.
Just my thoughts though
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
Is it so wrong to swap out the word good and replace it with evil, replace holy with unholy, and use the paladin class to make an antipaladin? (Until the real class arrives). I know I've done it often enough with bad guys - I had some great bad guys with Forgotten Realms antipaladins of Bane and Bhaal. Evil dudes with horns and spikes in their plate armour are a a classic part of the game - and when his sword flared up with black flames and every good person within 20 feet felt a cold hand in their chest... the table fell still and it was a great night for gaming!
Let's do a quick hack rewrite of the PRD...
Called anti-paladins, these ignoble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against good. Dark knights, black crusaders, and harsh law-bringers, anti-paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the corrupt deities they serve. In pursuit of their base goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of corruption and discipline. As reward for their hatefulness, these unholy champions are granted boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish good, harm the innocent, and inspire the faithful.
I have no issues saying that he could have LN or LE "templar' style "paladins" but I can't see how they could be LG paladins. Closer to hellknight then paladin I see this as a lead up to the non-LG paladin alt class builds
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
Doh - should have read the OP properly. I'm not sold on LG paladins willingly serving Asmodeus either! I can see them accepting help from, say, a cleric of Asmodeus to fight a demon incursion. Swearing allegiance to Asmodeus? Except as the only way to save an innocent I'm not sure how to take this.
Yeah, this definitely is a non-starter for me as well. Its not a big deal, unless I have someone try to slam one down my throat as a GM using the article as support, which will annoy be a bit.
I can see a paladin serving as a Hellknight, and defending Cheliax, but not directly serving Asmodeus. Its just too out there for me.
Not sure a paladin could stay a paladin and be a hellknight. Good or evil do not matter to a hellknight only LAW only order, no mercy ,no lenience no chance at redemption. Pure law untempered by compassion or emotion.
Not sure a paladin could stay a paladin and be a hellknight. Good or evil do not matter to a hellknight only LAW only order, no mercy ,no lenience no chance at redemption. Pure law untempered by compassion or emotion.
Well, there's been a few mentioned as being in the Hellknights. I think a paladin is going to be able to be in the Hellknights, especially if their job repeatedly brings them in contact with "safe" opponents, for example, demon worshiping cults.
Some positions within the organization might be challenging, but for a knight errant type character (excuse the self reference for a moment) that is protecting the people of Cheliax by driving out Chaos, that happily happens to also be evil, I think they could make a career of it.
Then again, I'm also sure that there are several fallen paladins in the Hellknights as well.
Yeah it may be possible, but not very long term I think. Sooner or later you may have to decide which path to follow.
|
|
I seem to be in the minority here...
a LG Paladin who travels the lower planes slaying demons and daemons and other evil outsiders/humanoids/etc is still a LG Paladin, no matter who he "follows."
once again, being LG and following the Code is what's needed, NOT a patron deity or crazy dichotomy of "do i follow Law or Good in this decision"...
so, big A has a "delta force" contingent, possibly from some remote location, where the Rule of Law is absolute, all the secular and clerical leadership at least LOOKS Good (best if they really ARE good, and not actual clerics of Asmodeus), and people hold hands and skip together down the streets without fear.
now, some upstart devil/demon/etc. gets up in LE Church A's face....they slip the info to Team Paladin, problem solved.
at least, that's how I envisioned that playing out.
-t
You can't stay LG and follow the big A however. Worship of him and being part of his church and the rites they do goes against every fiber of LG.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I found it a bit odd to see a few paragraphs spent on paladins for Asmodeus, but I don't really have a big problem with the concept. To me, it isn't really a worship of Asmodeus as much as a worship of just the lawful portions of Asmodeus. If you had to completely agree with your deity on everything, then one probably couldn't even be a Lawful Neutral cleric of Asmodeus. It isn't something I would want to be frequent, but since the text describes them as being very, very rare as well as having a certain fall from paladin-hood if they don't die young, so I'm fine with it.
I had the same initial reaction to reading the piece. "What the heck . . .?!"
But since I get to run the game I want to run, I simply ignore the illogical aspects that a paladin worshipping an LE deity creates. I mean, I could see it if Asmodeus were LN (along with really cool church-politics and crusades between/against the LG/LE factions) . . . .
But yeah, the whole idea twisted my brain around painfully, and I firmly cried "Not in my game!"
And woe to the player who brings that concept to my table!
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
ALL THAT SAID...
I'm 100% sure Asmodeus would LOVE to have some paladins following his advice, even if only for a short time, and even if he were tricking them. If anyone can trick a paladin into worshiping him without the paladin realizing it... it's Asmodeus. Or maybe Calistria... she's the only deity who can regularly stump and trick Asmodeus.
I'm 100% sure Asmodeus would LOVE to have some paladins following his advice, even if only for a short time, and even if he were tricking them.
Well, yeah, who wouldn't?
"Yo, Knights of the Workshop! That village over there is filled with heathens! Eradicate them!"
"Wait, that village? I just came from there, they're farmers . . . ."
"DARE NOT QUESTION YOUR GOD!!! Daddy needs some new souls . . . er . . . They are liars and charlatans, bent on opening the gateway to the Abyss and calling forth demons!"
"Well, if you say so . . . ."
well, why not...
LE with LN priests... only the LN ever dealing directly with the paladins. Some kind of "Grey order of law".. and teaching the youngones... kidnapped elsewhere... how they are orphans from a terrible invasion of demons, that the grey order of law drove off this incursion of chaos, and are always in need of more champions.
Surely theyll wish to aid, revenge themselves on the killers of their old family? ;) Nor betray their new family and all the trouble the order has been having with them. Surely they cannot be THAT ungrateful? The order is mother, the order is father..
Especially when those priests even dont know any better.. also having been kidnapped as lil children.. any memories of scaly horned beasts slaying and burning are obviously those demons they have been told about ;)
|
ALL THAT SAID...
I'm 100% sure Asmodeus would LOVE to have some paladins following his advice, even if only for a short time, and even if he were tricking them. If anyone can trick a paladin into worshiping him without the paladin realizing it... it's Asmodeus. Or maybe Calistria... she's the only deity who can regularly stump and trick Asmodeus.
Outside of Paizo, there's always the Paladins of other alignments in Dragon Magazine #310 and in Unearthed Arcana if someone needed one before Paizo released their own.
And Sune (Forgotten Realms goddess of Love and Beauty) is Chaotic to the core.
Chivalry makes the goddess of Love all fluttery inside.
And Sune (Forgotten Realms goddess of Love and Beauty) is Chaotic to the core.Chivalry makes the goddess of Love all fluttery inside.
She is also the goddess of marriage. So yes while she is chaotic she also understands a code and lifelong commitment. Which is why paladins fit really. Shes kinda a contradiction at times
I'm just not sure how a paladin who worships an evil god could ever work, given this part of the code:
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
If paladins can lose their powers by allying with Ted the Assassin, how can worshiping a truly evil entity result in anything but a loss of powers?
|
I tend to lean more towards the lawful side of the requirement. I do not think it is much of a stretch that diabolical evil would have unholy knights working for it. Using the theory that there is a "light" for every "dark" and vice versa. Demons vs. Azata, Devils vs. Archons, etc., why not paladin vs. "anti" paladin. I have a bigger issue with the chaotic forms of alternate paladin builds. The paladin is the ultimate commitment to an ideal/domain/ethic etc. Whether or not that ideal is good or evil will determine the paladins abilities (detect evil/good, smite evil/good, etc) but their absolute commitment is required and that screams Lawful (no neutral of any kind here). This could add another expectation to paladins. The LG pally should be actively attempting to pursuade the anti-pally to atone and cleanse their soul, while the anti-version should be actively trying to corrupt their holy counterpart. The LE "powers" would rather see a fallen pally instead of a slain one because they can claim his soul.