I didn't mean to be ungrateful, btw, and I'm sorry if I sounded like I was. I read this guide eagerly while first working up my character. I really meant only to state my intense interest in further guidance. I fully support (and share) your commitment to laziness!
No it's fine, sometimes I forget that Character Optimization is new to most pathfinder players, and assume everyone has read all the 3.5 guides. Like Treantmonk, I wrote the guide as a way to analyze something new- in my case those bloodlines and the updated skilss/feats. Spells are mostly the same, save the nerfs, which the wizard guide pointed out already, so yeah.
P.S. Sorry for my english, i'm italian (I'm not good in foreign languages)
Your English is fine- there is some misspelling, but not a whole lot more than many native speakers(American at least) if you hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have known.
(In the US- where I'm from, knowing a second language at all puts you ahead of the curve, and yet people are terrified about the number of Spanish speakers- it's ridiculous)Anyway, one your list...
It's good, like you said, not perfect but as good as you need. The arcane bloodline give a lot of good spells, and you worked with it well. There are some spells chosen probably more for taste then efficiency- which is a good thing, because if the perfect spell list could be found, than every sorcerer would be the same- dumb.
For the record, go with mage's disjunction, the pathfinder nerf made it a better spell.
Nice guide, good work collecting all the bloodline info as well--it's a fun read.
I tend to disagree with a lot of the ratings for special abilities of the bloodlines (the spell ratings are generally very good). Most notably (and the only one I can attest from actual play on a published adventure, rather than just home games and analysis), Fey's Laughing Touch is outstandingly powerful. It is definitely a blue rating ability.
We have a Fey Sorcerer in our group in Council of Thieves. From level 1-6, the Laughing Touch ability provided nearly 50% of that character's effectiveness in combat (less than that back when Colour Spray used to KO lots of mooks, but more than that nowadays). At level 4, there was something in the AP that caused us to fight a CR 9 enemy (I don't think we were supposed to fight it), which we killed without our party being hit once due to Laughing Touch. For solo enemies, it's like giving the entire party another round of actions before the enemy can attack again. For small groups, it is still powerful--we fought a pair of undead as a boss encounter, and the Sorcerer instructed us to focus fire on the one he went after first with Laughing Touch. That way, we dropped it, and he could move on to Laughing Touch the other one, giving us a round reprieve to heal up if necessary and start smacking the second one.
Fey's Laughing Touch is outstandingly powerful. It is definitely a blue rating ability.
But its range is touch- I can't justify giving a blue rating to a touch attack, because, while powerful, if you use it, it means that your group's tactics have failed. A sorcerer shouldn't be within 5 feet of an enemy. Period. If it was ranged it would get a blue rating, and since there are no level one abilities that de-buff at range no level one abilities get blue.
I made a system to rate things in an effort to stay objective. of course I'll gladly re-rate things if someone can convince me. I already raised my rating for a couple of the undead abilities.
Perhaps the Gish?
No, the wizard is distinctly better at this role. All Gish builds lost at least one caster level, and the caster level lost hurts Sorcerers more, due to the fact the sorcerer gets each spell level one later than the wizard. As it stands the basic build would amount to:
Mêlée1/Caster9/Eldritch Knight10 which gets us BaB 15 CL 18, the wizard gets his first ninth level spell at 19th level, the sorcerer gets it at 20. if the Sorcerer wanted to have Paladin2 for divine grace, he'd never get 9th level spells.
How about an Arcane Archer/Eldritch Night? It would total to mêlée1/caster5/Arcane Archer4/Eldritch Knight 10 Giving us BaB 17 CL17.
A wizard would get ninth level spells, a sorcerer wouldn't.
This doesn't mean you can't play a sorcerer Gish, it's just that this is something that's really wizard territory.
PS. Then there's the Dragon Disciple- I've played one. It's weaker than the straight sorcerer but cool enough that it's okay. But it's not really a Gish.
Fey's Laughing Touch is outstandingly powerful. It is definitely a blue rating ability.But its range is touch- I can't justify giving a blue rating to a touch attack, because, while powerful, if you use it, it means that your group's tactics have failed. A sorcerer shouldn't be within 5 feet of an enemy. Period.
I must respectfully disagree with your sentiment, particularly the part I bolded. Different groups have different tactics. And Laughing Touch is worth changing your tactics if you use others, but many of the best tactics at low levels involve the Sorcerer at very close range to the enemies anyway (Colour Spray, for instance).
I believe that the Paizo Adventure Paths are the best standard we can use to judge the value of these abilities, since clearly they can vary between different GM's games, particularly when the GM homebrews their material. In the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the ability has been invaluable. It's my only campaign with a Fey Sorcerer, and it's also the only campaign I've seen where the PCs leveled from 1 to 6 without a single knocked out party member. I wouldn't say our tactics have failed.
Fey Touch and Colour Spray together (on a Gnome) are incredibly effective against low level encounters. You can either knock everything out if you face mooks or delay a big guy for a round. Both of these require you to be in easy melee range of the enemies, so our Fey Sorcerer has Combat Casting and the trait that gives +2.
Different groups have different tactics.
Okay, to each his own, but it seems to be one of the rules of thumb is: Keep the squishy spellcaster as far away from the pointy things as possible. Most group (and games for that matter) stand by it. Every time my group has broken that rule, bad things happened.
Also they've made casting defensively really difficult in Pathfinder so all the more reason to keep those d6+con hit points per level away from the pointies.
By "sorcerer types", I am not talking about PrCs or multi-classing.
you can make a "gishy" single classed sorcerer in pathfinder? I'd honestly love to know how- I thought that with the changes to polymorph it'd be impossible, but I'd really like to see the strategy, as it opens a new layer for the arcanists.
I don't think so- by design. If a arcanist can cover melee, well, at that point why have characters who don't have magic?
Different groups have different tactics.Okay, to each his own, but it seems to be one of the rules of thumb is: Keep the squishy spellcaster as far away from the pointy things as possible. Most group (and games for that matter) stand by it. Every time my group has broken that rule, bad things happened.
Also they've made casting defensively really difficult in Pathfinder so all the more reason to keep those d6+con hit points per level away from the pointies.
The idea of Laughing Touch is that the guy you touched can't strike back after you use it (and if there are a lot of enemies, use Colour Spray instead). This of course assumes the Sorcerer is very likely to hit with a melee touch attack (so far the case for us).
I'd still like to stay away- usually if we're down to one enemy the meatshield have things handled.
I'd still like to stay away- usually if we're down to one enemy the meatshield have things handled.
Here's a rundown of encounters we've had in Council of Thieves and our Sorcerer's tactics, as well as their effectiveness:
Day 1:
Hellknights: Sorcerer went into melee and Colour Sprayed them. They all dropped. Then he coup de graced them.
Day 2:
Hellknights on a Wagon: Sorcerer went into melee and Colour Sprayed them. This dropped all of them in the cone except one. He Colour Sprayed again on the next turn, leaving just a few to mop up for the fighting classes.
Day 3:
Bastards of Erebus playing cards: Sorcerer went into melee and Colour Sprayed them, dropping all but one. This one was easily defeated before he got a turn.
Skeletons Dogs: Sorcerer went into melee and Laughing Touched one. We attacked it and it attacked back. Sorcerer Laughing Touched the other one. We beat the first one before it could go, then beat the other before it could attack again.
Fiendish Dogs : Sorcerer went into melee and Colour Sprayed. This dropped them.
Tiefling Sorcerer Dressed up as a Mummy (we thought it was a mummy): Sorcerer went into melee and Laughing Touched the "mummy". We beat him before he could go a second time and still didn't find out he wasn't a mummy (the GM later told us he was a Sorcerer). There were two of these guys, and this happened with them each time.
Holy Crap, All the Rest of the BoE together + 2 Skeleton Dogs + Palavine: The hardest fight in the campaign so far. Thanks to the Darkness effect written into the adventure, no one, not even the enemy who used it or our two PCs with Darkvision, could see. Sorcerer wound up not going into melee at first, and we almost had people get KOed. Eventually, we were weak and up against Palavine and a few of his friends, a higher-level-than-us level Cleric with a healing wand. Sorcerer went into melee and Laughing Touched him, allowing us to take him out before he used an Invisibility Potion or his Trickery domain spells to escape.
The GM then wrote a dungeon about wererats, which I will skip because it wasn't from Paizo's main path.
Day X:
A few lemures: The Sorcerer had been frightened about what we might face in the play, and he was so contemptuous of lemures, he used no abilities at all.
Two (then three) skeleton trolls: The Sorcerer saved our ass by going into melee and using Laughing Touch on them one at a time because they were focus-firing on Larazod, who was not able to use all her abilities easily because of the play. We managed to never suffer a round with two full attacks from these guys because of Laughing Touch, even when the GM added a third that showed up on Round 2. This is the only thing that allowed our Clericless party to keep the focus-fired PC up.
Barbazu: This immediately followed the skeleton trolls and was also added by the GM to this part of the play on top of the original module. The Sorcerer went into melee and used Laughing Touch again and saved the day.
Day X+1:
Three Weird Dog Creatures with Spikes: The Dog things were down three branching hallways. The Sorcerer went first and rushed into melee with one of them and Laughing Touched it. The two main warriors stood at the junction and took the charge attacks from the other two. The Sorcerer and I took the one that he Laughing Touched, then we came back and helped the tanks.
Infinity Shadows: This encounter is apparently the leading cause of deaths in CoT. The Sorcerer went into melee and tried to use Laughing Touch to help us avoid Str damage, but the force was not with him on the incorporeal miss chance.
Some Weird Lacedons: The Sorcerer never had a chance to go into melee because they kept fleeing from us.
An Angry Kyton Chain: This was floating over a pit. You may not expect, then, that the Sorcerer went into melee, but he was eager to test out whether he could make a chain laugh, so, riding a flying summoned creature, the sorcerer went into melee and used Laughing Touch. The chain had very high hardness and our melee guys were having trouble hurting it at range, so it got one turn to attack after the turn it was laughing, but it missed.
Four Rooms of Mooks: When relevant, the Sorcerer was blinded by Fire Elementals, and they went into melee with him, but we pointed him in the right direction to use Colour Spray, and he did so effectively.
Giant Stinky Water Elemental: We didn't fight this, we just went past and avoided the stinky water it lived in.
Sian the Shadowdancer: Using her annoying abilities, she sniped us from the shadows, but she had bad luck and attacked the Rogue, so it wasn't a Sneak Attack. Then we flew around the Sorcerer with Light on a flying summoned monster until there was no shadow within 10 feet of her, and he used Laughing Touch. She didn't have long conscious from there.
Random Bone Devil: Apparently it came to kill Sian while we were questioning her. She was at 4 HP at the time, though a little bit of the damage was nonlethal. We were mostly level 4, and the Bone Devil is CR 9. The Sorcerer, trumpeting with glee because I had been confused about why he spent all his non-Combat Casting feats on Spell Penetration and he was ready to be vindicated, went into melee and led up with Laughing Touch, which put the Bone Devil out of commission for a turn, but the Bone Devil had gone before the Sorcerer and so got its first turn attacking Sian and KOed her (she was still alive because of the nonlethal). We then proceeded to kill it before it could attack again, though we didn't know we would get a crit, so we dragged her unconscious body away while it was Laughing Touched so it couldn't get a full attack and/or Coup de Grace.
That's where we are right now. I think this demonstrates my point about the Sorcerer going into melee being both effective and important (i.e. it wasn't just the case that the melee always had everything handled). If not, well, everyone's game is different, and we can agree to disagree, but this was on a Paizo AP, so I would ask you to consider it as a possible data point for a general guide. And if not, no worries.
I play a level 3 Human Fey Sorc with the following traits and feats:
Spell Focus (Ench)
Improved Initiative
Greater Spell Focus (Ench)
Missionary (Sense Motive)
Reactionary.
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 11, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 18
Sleep
Burning Hands
Unseen Servant
Entangle
I've found that Laughing Touch is a madly powerful ability - if I go first. Having a +8 to Initiative really helps.
A DC 19 Sleep spell is also pretty powerful; for levels 1 and 2, it was "Cast sleep, end encounter."
you can make a "gishy" single classed sorcerer in pathfinder? I'd honestly love to know how- I thought that with the changes to polymorph it'd be impossible, but I'd really like to see the strategy, as it opens a new layer for the arcanists.
Well, although maybe sub-optimal, the Abyssal Bloodline gives a few goodies in that direction (Claws - albeit a limited number of rounds per day -, an inherent bonus to Strength, and a selection of Bonus spells like Bull's Strength/Rage/Stoneskin/Transformation/Unholy Aura).
And don't forget that although the various Polymorph spells have been seriously nerfed (luckily, I must add), some spells would still pack a punch, like the Giant Form spells or the Form of the Dragon spells (and the almighty Shapechange spell).
A Sorcerer with some rounds of preparation could cast Stoneskin/Giant Form I or II/Unholy Aura and then finally (if necessary) cast Trasformation (which would freeze his spellcasting ability, but would pump up his fighting abilities).
Just my 2c.
So a pure sorcerer warrior is about as viable as a pure fighter caster (UMD again). Not recommended but possible.
So a pure sorcerer warrior is about as viable as a pure fighter caster (UMD again). Not recommended but possible.
Exactly. Again, not the best trick in the book, but wouldn't you be thrilled by the Abyssal Sorcerer who sporadically picks up a Greataxe and goes out in 'Gene Simmons' mode (this is dedicated to my friend's Sorcerer Randon, btw ;D ) ? Real-rock-n-roll !!!
hilarious
Still, spending four rounds to turn your sorcerer into a fighter seems like a bad deal to me.
hilarious
Still, spending four rounds to turn your sorcerer into a fighter seems like a bad deal to me.
Into a buffed warrior, not a fighter. Transformation doesn't give out any feats or class abilities. An abyssal sorc might be better served casting dragon or giant form then casting transformation.
Help me with how silent image can be used to justify taking it? I'm not questioning it, but I'm having a hard time thinking through the uses. Also, I'm somewhat surprised to not find color spray. Even for 5HD+ opponents, it's still an area stun effect. Thanks.
True true, you know what I meant. Either or a high enough magic weapon counts nowadays thus the DR capstone abilities are utterly worthless appart from lording over pesants and ignoring uprisings !!!I had actually thought Fey Bloodline Lvl 20 to be DR 10 excluding Cold Iron? Or that's honestly how it should be. Cold Iron is the traditional Fey killer. It is to Fey as Silver is to a Lycanthrope.
One thing about fey bloodline the 20th level ability cold iron resistance is useless as under new magic weapon rules even a +3 weapon cuts thru cold iron resistance like butter !
Um, not to be dense, but the majority of monsters you fight don't have +3 weapons, AND don't wield cold iron. NPC's, maybe. So in 70%+ of encounters, that very substantial DR is indeed going to apply.
==Aelryinth
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Craft Rod: Well you will definitely want rods, however, usually you want the rod to cover a metamagic feat that you DON'T have. I think you should just buy your rods,they're cheap.
I was under the impression that you could Craft a Rod that you didn't have the metamagic feat for, but that this would raise the DC of the Spellcraft check (for not having a prerequisite). Is this correct? If true, would that alter your rating?
Since this has been necro'd, I completely disagree with a lot of assessments in this doc. Maybe it's because the document wasn't written in consideration of APG and UM. But it's pretty full of misinformation now. . .
Craft Rod (marked as red) is a great choice for a sorcerer. You can take a +5 DC to the craft check to craft almost any metamagic rod. A lot of the rods are very good. The concept that they're cheap is meaningless when you should be packing several rods. You need them to be as cheap as possible. Since they don't have a lot of multiple prereqs, they're great for a sorcerer. . .
The craft skill (marked as red) is also the best way to craft rods -- using Craft (Sculptures). Crafter's Fortune essentially negates the +5 crafting DC for not having a metamagic feat to craft a rod. Also, masterwork artisan tools + gnome obsessive can easily boost your check (if you don't want to use up one of your spells known).
Giving the draconic bloodline arcana a red rating is *crazy*. While you might not *like* blasting, the math about blasters is clearly wrong. You shouldn't be doing 70 avg. damage at 20th level with a blasting spell. You should be doing 218 avg. damage (25d6 delayed blast fireball [pyromaniac/orange ioun stone + Spell Specialization * 2 from Spell Perfection] + greater Maximized Spell rod + free Empower Spell from Spell Perfection + free Intensify Spell from the Magical Lineage trait applied to delayed blast fireball + 25 free damage from draconic bloodline arcana) -- with a level 7 spell slot (add persistent on top to get 9th level). You're doing 32% of possible damage, and that's not even counting what you can do with Quicken Spell on top of that. Of course blasters suck q:
maybe a redo/retouching is in order?
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Personally I'd put Halfling on a par with gnome, in terms of races for the Sorcerer class, simply because a higher Dexterity score means that you get a higher initiative result and if you go before the enemy you may not have to eat a Fortitude save or lose hit points...
I was gonna go with this in our Serpent Skull campaign, just because I thought a halfling sorcerer would be cool. Sadly, my DM asked me to play a gnome to make it easier on him working me into the game, since I didn't start off with them.
Since this has been necro'd, I completely disagree with a lot of assessments in this doc. Maybe it's because the document wasn't written in consideration of APG and UM. But it's pretty full of misinformation now. . .
Craft Rod (marked as red) is a great choice for a sorcerer. You can take a +5 DC to the craft check to craft almost any metamagic rod. A lot of the rods are very good. The concept that they're cheap is meaningless when you should be packing several rods. You need them to be as cheap as possible. Since they don't have a lot of multiple prereqs, they're great for a sorcerer. . .
The craft skill (marked as red) is also the best way to craft rods -- using Craft (Sculptures). Crafter's Fortune essentially negates the +5 crafting DC for not having a metamagic feat to craft a rod. Also, masterwork artisan tools + gnome obsessive can easily boost your check (if you don't want to use up one of your spells known).
Giving the draconic bloodline arcana a red rating is *crazy*. While you might not *like* blasting, the math about blasters is clearly wrong. You shouldn't be doing 70 avg. damage at 20th level with a blasting spell. You should be doing 218 avg. damage (25d6 delayed blast fireball [pyromaniac/orange ioun stone + Spell Specialization * 2 from Spell Perfection] + greater Maximized Spell rod + free Empower Spell from Spell Perfection + free Intensify Spell from the Magical Lineage trait applied to delayed blast fireball + 25 free damage from draconic bloodline arcana) -- with a level 7 spell slot (add persistent on top to get 9th level). You're doing 32% of possible damage, and that's not even counting what you can do with Quicken Spell on top of that. Of course blasters suck q:
You can get that great damage. But man you burned a CRAPLOAD of feats and resources to do it.
A Save or Suck Caster needs 1 feat. Persistent Spell. Takes 2 saves for the spell to do nothing. Miss one and you're toast
You COULD go the other way and just Use Dazing spell on your evocations. MOST creatures have weak reflex saves (offsetting the high metamagic cost). Turns all your DD spells into save or lose.
So a pure sorcerer warrior is about as viable as a pure fighter caster (UMD again). Not recommended but possible.Exactly. Again, not the best trick in the book, but wouldn't you be thrilled by the Abyssal Sorcerer who sporadically picks up a Greataxe and goes out in 'Gene Simmons' mode (this is dedicated to my friend's Sorcerer Randon, btw ;D ) ? Real-rock-n-roll !!!
I've been playing with a 20 lv Gish sorcerer, and I think it can be done (albeit lesser than a fighter) without sacrificing spellcasting or taking 3+ rounds to prepare.
Through dual-blood or eldritch bloodline get the Serpentine bite and the Abyssal claws and strength, then at the beginning of combat cast frightening aspect on yourself. You get sucky SR, sucky DR, but more importantly you get a big bonus to strength, constitution and armor without sacrificing spellcasting (like turning into a dragon does, if I remember right,) nor having to turn into a Huge target to get the same bonuses to strength.
Then, if someone gets past your tank or if you need to go melee for some reason, just quicken cast calcific touch on yourself and in the round before they flee in panic from your frightening aspect make three attacks at full BAB +12 strength. Even if they save it does 1d4 dex damage per hit on top of your normal damage, turning them into stone if dex drops to 0.
Perfect melee? No. Good melee without sacrificing spellcasting or spending the whole fight casting self-buffs? I think so. Plus as you're in a strength-increasing transformation already, you'd only need the one round to cast transformation on yourself if you need it, pick up the downed tank's weapon and go to town on the enemy. That's a cool back-up plan if the tank falls and you find yourself in melee sometime.
Since this has been necro'd, I completely disagree with a lot of assessments in this doc. Maybe it's because the document wasn't written in consideration of APG and UM. But it's pretty full of misinformation now. . .
Craft Rod (marked as red) is a great choice for a sorcerer. You can take a +5 DC to the craft check to craft almost any metamagic rod. A lot of the rods are very good. The concept that they're cheap is meaningless when you should be packing several rods. You need them to be as cheap as possible. Since they don't have a lot of multiple prereqs, they're great for a sorcerer. . .
The craft skill (marked as red) is also the best way to craft rods -- using Craft (Sculptures). Crafter's Fortune essentially negates the +5 crafting DC for not having a metamagic feat to craft a rod. Also, masterwork artisan tools + gnome obsessive can easily boost your check (if you don't want to use up one of your spells known).
Giving the draconic bloodline arcana a red rating is *crazy*. While you might not *like* blasting, the math about blasters is clearly wrong. You shouldn't be doing 70 avg. damage at 20th level with a blasting spell. You should be doing 218 avg. damage (25d6 delayed blast fireball [pyromaniac/orange ioun stone + Spell Specialization * 2 from Spell Perfection] + greater Maximized Spell rod + free Empower Spell from Spell Perfection + free Intensify Spell from the Magical Lineage trait applied to delayed blast fireball + 25 free damage from draconic bloodline arcana) -- with a level 7 spell slot (add persistent on top to get 9th level). You're doing 32% of possible damage, and that's not even counting what you can do with Quicken Spell on top of that. Of course blasters suck q:
Awesome, thanks! I've been working on an Arcane Trickster which, as he can sneak attack spells, needs to blast but no one could tell me how to do it right. Yes that's feat and item-heavy, but so's any good optimized build. Thanks for the info, it'll help.
Great work! Do you intend to update it with all the new bloodlines?
Depends on your character. Iomedae is one of the most archetypical lawful good types, but tends towards crusaders and paladins. Erastil is lawful good as well, but tends towards rangers and small towns. Irori, with his quest for self-perfection, may be a good selection for a LG sorcerer - even though he himself is LN.
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In the Bloodline section (Aberrant), the See Invisibility bonus spell is red. I have to disagree. The only reason you would not want this as a bonus spell at 5th level is because you already took it at 4th level.
In my experience, invisible enemies - especially those with Greater Invisibility - can shred a party in a single combat.
A sorcerer with See Invisibility and Glitterdust can remove this threat. Usually the blindness from Glitterdust is just an added bonus. The important thing is that your enemy is now visible to one and all.
Yeah, now it looks like somebody scribbled in it with their crayons.
Gamers do come at all ages... and maturity levels, eh?
I have a local copy, I can put it back. I'm just not sure if that is appropriate or not, and as of early November, it is still dead. :(
I did also see this thing was messed up, dang I was wanting to check it out. Probably shouldn't have allowed anyone to edit the document.
Can someone PM me with a link or email me a local copy? Would love to see it restored!
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As I read in another thread, and just tried out now, while it looks jacked up from google doc vagrants, you can press the green button at the top right, then click on the word that says "viewing". It will pause for a little bit, then go to the original, un-jacked up version that the creator had made. At least, it worked for me anyways. No idea if it will work for everyone.