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Uh oh.
Anyone know of any other weapons that still allow for reach and nearby?
If S.C. is nerfed, then why bother taking it? You had a spend a feat to be proficient in it.
Uh oh.
Anyone know of any other weapons that still allow for reach and nearby?
If S.C. is nerfed, then why bother taking it? You had a spend a feat to be proficient in it.
Still the only weapon that lets you use Disarm, Trip AND still has any damage associated with it. If you're going to be a Maneuver Monster, it's still gotta be the weapon of choice (just ahead of unarmed strike).
Edit: Also without having a copy of the book, I don't think there will be a weapon that does both of these things as that was part of the spiked chain's problem. There IS however a feat called Lunge that let's you get an extra 5' reach for -2 AC penalty with any weapon you want. With this feat in the game, letting the spiked chain have no downsides and a total of 15' reach would have just been way outta line.
Uh oh.
Anyone know of any other weapons that still allow for reach and nearby?
If S.C. is nerfed, then why bother taking it? You had a spend a feat to be proficient in it.
Monks can always wield a reach weapon and threaten up close with their unarmed kicks.
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Uh oh.
Anyone know of any other weapons that still allow for reach and nearby?
If S.C. is nerfed, then why bother taking it? You had a spend a feat to be proficient in it.
Still the only weapon that lets you use Disarm, Trip AND still has any damage associated with it. If you're going to be a Maneuver Monster, it's still gotta be the weapon of choice (just ahead of unarmed strike).
Edit: Also without having a copy of the book, I don't think there will be a weapon that does both of these things as that was part of the spiked chain's problem. There IS however a feat called Lunge that let's you get an extra 5' reach for -2 AC penalty with any weapon you want. With this feat in the game, letting the spiked chain have no downsides and a total of 15' reach would have just been way outta line.
Flails can disarm and trip as well. Honestly while I do think the spiked chain has been nerfed to uselessness, I'm not really upset about it. The spiked chain was becoming all too common. Now it's a choice made for flavor because you're better off with a flail, all the same benefits, no proficiency feats and better damage if you go heavy since the spiked chain is also two handed.
EDIT: and I have the final here with me.
There IS however a feat called Lunge that let's you get an extra 5' reach for -2 AC penalty with any weapon you want. With this feat in the game, letting the spiked chain have no downsides and a total of 15' reach would have just been way outta line.
So if I enlarge myself, and have both Lunge and Combat reflexes, I'll get the extra attacks out to 15'? Almost as good as the 20' a spiked chain gave me.
Flails can disarm and trip as well.
Can't you disarm with any weapon, I mean maybe not get a bonus to do it, but I'm just saying. In that case, how about any weapon that allows you to trip with it. Halberd or Scythe for example?
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Flails can disarm and trip as well.Can't you disarm with any weapon, I mean maybe not get a bonus to do it, but I'm just saying. In that case, how about any weapon that allows you to trip with it. Halberd or Scythe for example?
Disarm and trip are now special properties. but yes you can make disarm attempts with any weapon, disarm weapons just give a bonus. You can only use trip weapons to make trip attempts with the weapon, but you can always make a trip attempt without a weapon, it's just that you aren't using the weapon (even if your holding it) and therefor can't drop it to avoid being tripped yourself.
flails, spiked chains, and whips, all have disarm and trip. but the spiked chain is no longer a reach weapon, and the whip is the only reach weapon with disarm and trip, but you don't threaten any squares with it so you can't make AoOs, also you can't damage any creature with either a +1 armor bonus, or a +3 nat armor bonus.
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The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
I disagree that it was goofy, I've seen real video of monks using one, I think that it wasn't made well to be reflected in game terms, and since it was so good it wound up being overused. Now I think they've weakened it to the point no-one will waste the feat to get it, which was going to far. Did it need nerfed, yes, did they nerf it too much, also yes.
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I disagree that it was goofy, I've seen real video of monks using one, I think that it wasn't made well to be reflected in game terms, and since it was so good it wound up being overused. Now I think they've weakened it to the point no-one will waste the feat to get it, which was going to far. Did it need nerfed, yes, did they nerf it too much, also yes.The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
Yes, you are right in your observation. The "Spiked Chain Monkey" has just soured me to the weapon over the years.
Look on the bright side. Now spiked chain is just as useful as the rest of the exotic weapons in core book.
But in all seriousness, if spiked chain was a goofy weapon, fluff should be changed, not mechanics. As it was, it was about the only exotic weapon worth the feat. Now it's just waste of space.
The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but left the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.
My biggest problem with the spiked chain is that it is basically a fantasy weapon. Yes, spiked chains exist in the real world. But if they had all the clear advantages that they have in 3.5, then real world history would have seen armies of spiked chain wielders, or at the very least many more.
In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.
That little house rule would be enough to justify the rarity of the weapon. Even so, from what I have seen of the PRPG version, it makes sense to me. The weapon as it was in 3.5 just felt fictional.
My biggest problem with the spiked chain is that it is basically a fantasy weapon. Yes, spiked chains exist in the real world. But if they had all the clear advantages that they have in 3.5, then real world history would have seen armies of spiked chain wielders, or at the very least many more.
In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.
That little house rule would be enough to justify the rarity of the weapon. Even so, from what I have seen of the PRPG version, it makes sense to me. The weapon as it was in 3.5 just felt fictional.
Agreed.
I'll also add that just the spiked chains with reach always seemed like a Ghost Rider rip-off to me. I accept that some real world monks use them, sure. But I don't see the PF version as nerfed, just fixed.
In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.
This would make experienced wielders (read: has proficiency and +20 BAB) hurt themselves more often with a spiked chain than Joe the farmer who picked up a spiked chain up for the first time in his life (read: no proficiency and +0 BAB)
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In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.This would make experienced wielders (read: has proficiency and +20 BAB) hurt themselves more often with a spiked chain than Joe the farmer who picked up a spiked chain up for the first time in his life (read: no proficiency and +0 BAB)
The way you get around the multiple attacks fumble rules is by making it all 1s rolled in 1 round.
So if you have 4 attacks, you need to roll 4 1s, or a 1 in 16000 chance. While joe the farmer has a 1 in 20 chance.
Disarm and trip are now special properties. but yes you can make disarm attempts with any weapon, disarm weapons just give a bonus....
Wait, 'special property' as in pay extra to add it to any weapon?
Is that so any weapon can attempt trips (using enhancement bonus, wpn training, etc), or does it grant the bonus?
Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but left the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.
Because there still are only 3.5 rules for the bladed scarf.
I guess in Pathfinder RPG one would have to remove reach from it as well.
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Than compare it to the heavy flail (a martial weapon). It deals less damage, is usable with weapon finesse and is an exotic weapon.
It was never broken, just the only exotic weapon worth taking.
I think I'm missing something ... how can a heavy flail be used with weapon finesse?
Also I find the exotic double weapons can be useful ... allowing 2-weapon fighters to specialize/focus in a weapon used in both hands ... but YMMV.
The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
Agreed, if it is nerfed, im glad.
Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but left the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.Because there still are only 3.5 rules for the bladed scarf.
That's why my brain hasn't exploded yet. :-)
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In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.This would make experienced wielders (read: has proficiency and +20 BAB) hurt themselves more often with a spiked chain than Joe the farmer who picked up a spiked chain up for the first time in his life (read: no proficiency and +0 BAB)
No, it would just mean that they are more likely in any given round to hurt themselves then Joe the Farmer. It is a fair trade for being able to damage your enemy more often. If both Joe the farmer and the fighter make 1600 attack rolls, using the same d20, they each have an equal chance of rolling a one on any given roll, the fighter just does it in 400 turns while Joe the Farmer does it in 1600 turns. But the fighter has a 1 in 4 chance during any given turn, but Joe the Farmer only has 1 chance during the same turn.
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Than compare it to the heavy flail (a martial weapon). It deals less damage, is usable with weapon finesse and is an exotic weapon.
It was never broken, just the only exotic weapon worth taking.
I think I'm missing something ... how can a heavy flail be used with weapon finesse?
Also I find the exotic double weapons can be useful ... allowing 2-weapon fighters to specialize/focus in a weapon used in both hands ... but YMMV.
I never said the heavy flail was usable with weapon finesse. Compare, for example, the rapier with the longsword. It als deals less damage, but usable with weapon finesse, has a greater threat range and is also a martial weapon.
If you are arguing that the spiked chain should be an exotic weapon because it's usable with weapon finesse, shouldn't the same apply to the rapier?I agree that double weapon have their merits. But on the other hand, a fighter could easily use a light weapon like a shortsword in both hands with the same effect. Double weapons are about as good as a bastard sword, with the additional advantage of being able to use them as a twohanded weapon for additional strength bonus and power attack.
In truth, long chain weapons are quite dangerous and unpredictable for the wielder. My favored solution would be to leave all the advantages in the 3.5 weapon, but have it automatically fumble on a roll of 1, dealing damage to the wielder. More than any other weapon, it is easy to see the spiked chain wielder hurting themselves accidentally.This would make experienced wielders (read: has proficiency and +20 BAB) hurt themselves more often with a spiked chain than Joe the farmer who picked up a spiked chain up for the first time in his life (read: no proficiency and +0 BAB)
Could be. Any maybe this isn't the best solution, just an idea. But in real life*, the reason long chain weapons are so rare is precisely because if this unpredictability. Even with short chain weapons, a nunchaku expert occasionally hits him/herself pretty hard.
Of course, giving the item realistic weaknesses isn't a great approach unless we're also going to account for realistic* advantages, for example the Spiked Chain (and flails, etc) are all great at bypassing shields and parries, something completely ignored in the mechanics.
My little fumble rule is irrelevant. The 3.5 spiked chain was good to the point of behaving "magically" — better than any real world* similar weapon. And to a certain extent, I am okay with "idealized" weapons in D&D, but not when they cause that many arguments at the table. If there was a real world spiked chain that was that good, I don't think it would be as controversial.
I think the new mechanic plus the Lunge feat is going to be way more interesting in play anyway. The old spiked chain tripper got boring real fast, even if it was effective in it's niche.
* : of course, "realism" arguments are shaky ground in fantasy game discussions. I offer that if a weapon is behaving magically, but is not magic, then it is safe to discuss what a weapon ought to be capable of without magic.
But I don't see the PF version as nerfed, just fixed.Than compare it to the heavy flail (a martial weapon). It deals less damage, is usable with weapon finesse and is an exotic weapon.
It was never broken, just the only exotic weapon worth taking.
I didn't like the spiked chain as a reach weapon. That seemed kinda fake, and everytime I imagined it in action- it seemed like a dangerous and awkward weapon to use. However, as my GM style, I don't use fumbled rolls as anything but a "miss", both for players and NPCs.
(No disrespect to those who do, it's just a personal choice)
And I agree, the heavy flail is a better weapon choice, particularly for some classes for some classes that receive martial weapon proficiencies.
I am going to "man up" and admit that I have some bias that doesn't hold up in a side by side comparision. I think it's kind of a fake weapon. I don't feel that way about the Heavy Flail; hell I've seen enough of those in museums! :) But rather than just outlawing them, I'm happy with how they've been changed in Pathfinder.
Now, to you they're not worth the feat. Fair enough. To me, if you're so determined to use a Spiked Chain it should be worth the feat. I don't think I need an artifical equality here. There's no desire in me to make the Spiked Chain equal or on parity with another weapon. It is exotic. Exotic does not inherently equate to efficient (like the Heavy Flail).
But yeah.. if you stand up against the Heavy Flail, I see exactly what you mean and I concede the point.
But for me, if you want that particular flavor, I'll give it to you as a price. I'll understand if you disagree.
Please realize that I'm not saying you're wrong, but just where we disagree. :D And I'm being fair to you in admitting that there is a subjective bias on my part.
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I never said the heavy flail was usable with weapon finesse. Compare, for example, the rapier with the longsword. It als deals less damage, but usable with weapon finesse, has a greater threat range and is also a martial weapon.
If you are arguing that the spiked chain should be an exotic weapon because it's usable with weapon finesse, shouldn't the same apply to the rapier?
I agree that double weapon have their merits. But on the other hand, a fighter could easily use a light weapon like a shortsword in both hands with the same effect. Double weapons are about as good as a bastard sword, with the additional advantage of being able to use them as a twohanded weapon for additional strength bonus and power attack.
Sorry, thought you where comparing the heavy flail and the chain in that they both had such and such properties ... I get you now.
Well, as some actually trained (I've spent over a third of my life in martial arts schools)in the use of a chain weapon, the manriki-gusari (weighted chain) and the chijiriki (weighted chain with small spear on one end) I've never considered the weapon to be overpowered. I never thought the reach of the weapon was very appropriate for it since the manriki-gusari (the weapon it was modeled after is usually only about 4-5 feet long. I did however think it should be treated as a double weapon since it can easily be used with either hand simulataneously, much like a fist load.
Also it in not signifigantly harder to learn how to avoid injuring oneself than it is with a flail or nunchaku, thus I don't buy the automatic fumble on a 1 roll concept, the exotic weapon profiency should take care of that issue for sure.
Why has it not been added as a monk weapon though, there are several real world analogues for it within just Northern Shao Lin style Gung Fu, not to mention the wide variety of similar weapons within the arsenal of ninjitsu.
Guess I will stick to the houserule we already use, but at least they added the short sword to the monk list, a small victory but a win nonetheless
I think I will probably add it to the monk weapon proficiency list (and monk weapon group for fighters) and give it the monk trait. That will put it in the niche I think I want it to be in.
yep me to
Than compare it to the heavy flail (a martial weapon). It deals less damage, is usable with weapon finesse and is an exotic weapon.
It was never broken, just the only exotic weapon worth taking.
I think I'm missing something ... how can a heavy flail be used with weapon finesse?
Also I find the exotic double weapons can be useful ... allowing 2-weapon fighters to specialize/focus in a weapon used in both hands ... but YMMV.
I never said the heavy flail was usable with weapon finesse. Compare, for example, the rapier with the longsword. It als deals less damage, but usable with weapon finesse, has a greater threat range and is also a martial weapon.
If you are arguing that the spiked chain should be an exotic weapon because it's usable with weapon finesse, shouldn't the same apply to the rapier?
I agree that double weapon have their merits. But on the other hand, a fighter could easily use a light weapon like a shortsword in both hands with the same effect. Double weapons are about as good as a bastard sword, with the additional advantage of being able to use them as a twohanded weapon for additional strength bonus and power attack.
I don't think that it is too good because it is (A) a reach weapon, (B) that can attack an adjacent foe, (C) that it is finesse-able, or (D) you can drop it when attempting to trip.
I think it is too good because (A)+(B)+(C)+(D)
Brief follow-up to my previous post, just because I think I can be more concise.
If you want to push the genere of the game with a really funky weapon, I'm willing to allow it for a price (exotic weapon feat). That shows your commitment to the character concept.
I disagree that all weapons need to be equal. Or that there be an articial parity, like in your example about why the rapier shouldn't be an exotic because it allows you to use Weapon Finesse as does the spiked chain. Some weapons are more practical than others.. although any weapon should at least be useful.
The spiked chain is still very useful.
Well, as some actually trained (I've spent over a third of my life in martial arts schools)in the use of a chain weapon, the manriki-gusari (weighted chain) and the chijiriki (weighted chain with small spear on one end) I've never considered the weapon to be overpowered. I never thought the reach of the weapon was very appropriate for it since the manriki-gusari (the weapon it was modeled after is usually only about 4-5 feet long. I did however think it should be treated as a double weapon since it can easily be used with either hand simulataneously, much like a fist load.
Also it in not signifigantly harder to learn how to avoid injuring oneself than it is with a flail or nunchaku, thus I don't buy the automatic fumble on a 1 roll concept, the exotic weapon profiency should take care of that issue for sure.
Why has it not been added as a monk weapon though, there are several real world analogues for it within just Northern Shao Lin style Gung Fu, not to mention the wide variety of similar weapons within the arsenal of ninjitsu.
Guess I will stick to the houserule we already use, but at least they added the short sword to the monk list, a small victory but a win nonetheless
Then you and I are really on the same page.
I had not realized it wasn't on the Monk's list. I would/will add it to the Monk list too. We both agree that it shouldn't be a reach weapon.
Maybe I do the weapon a historical disservice, but regardless we arrive at similiar conclusions.
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I think I will probably add it to the monk weapon proficiency list (and monk weapon group for fighters) and give it the monk trait. That will put it in the niche I think I want it to be in.yep me to
Heh that's exactly what I was gonna suggest but I took my lunch break instead and here you go beating me to the punch lol.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My biggest problem with the spiked chain is that it is basically a fantasy weapon. Yes, spiked chains exist in the real world. But if they had all the clear advantages that they have in 3.5, then real world history would have seen armies of spiked chain wielders, or at the very least many more.
Pfft. I've studied history extensively, primarily through watching such documentaries as "300", "10,000 BC" and "The Thirteenth Warrior" and I can tell you for a fact that not only is the spiked chain not an inaccurate weapon from a historical perspective, but that larger, more elaborate weapons have existed and been used extensively.
Also, other cultures have demonstrated that certain weapon types, which are not well-represented in D&D, are extremely powerful and deadly. I direct your attention to those Klingon curved blade things.
Sheesh. Learn some history.
;-D
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My biggest problem with the spiked chain is that it is basically a fantasy weapon. Yes, spiked chains exist in the real world. But if they had all the clear advantages that they have in 3.5, then real world history would have seen armies of spiked chain wielders, or at the very least many more.
Pfft. I've studied history extensively, primarily through watching such documentaries as "300", "10,000 BC" and "The Thirteenth Warrior" and I can tell you for a fact that not only is the spiked chain not an inaccurate weapon from a historical perspective, but that larger, more elaborate weapons have existed and been used extensively.
Also, other cultures have demonstrated that certain weapon types, which are not well-represented in D&D, are extremely powerful and deadly. I direct your attention to those Klingon curved blade things.
Sheesh. Learn some history.
Don't forget important documentaries like the princess' bride and shanghai noon
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Don't forget important documentaries like the princess' bride and shanghai noonMy biggest problem with the spiked chain is that it is basically a fantasy weapon. Yes, spiked chains exist in the real world. But if they had all the clear advantages that they have in 3.5, then real world history would have seen armies of spiked chain wielders, or at the very least many more.
Pfft. I've studied history extensively, primarily through watching such documentaries as "300", "10,000 BC" and "The Thirteenth Warrior" and I can tell you for a fact that not only is the spiked chain not an inaccurate weapon from a historical perspective, but that larger, more elaborate weapons have existed and been used extensively.
Also, other cultures have demonstrated that certain weapon types, which are not well-represented in D&D, are extremely powerful and deadly. I direct your attention to those Klingon curved blade things.
Sheesh. Learn some history.
The deadly horseshoe and rope!!!
Just because you know it needs to be said:
And this is why fighters can't have nice things.
That weapon is pretty silly, there are plenty of real chain weapons, why they had to make this completely fantastic weapon, I don't know...
Kusari Gama should be able to be used at range and adjacent, but wouldn't be a two-headed weapon.
Good Kusari-Gama from the DMG [3.5], light weapon that has reach and can threaten near and far. Now two-weapon finesseable! Yup, the spiked chain was totally out there. :D
Maybe the problem is that the feat "Exotic Weapon" was itself broken?
Taking it to use a rarely used weapon seemed relatively pointless, while using it on something special like a spiked chain seemed worth it.
Therefore perhaps it would have been better to make the "Exotic Weapon" to be where you specialize in TWO exotic weapons (or one spiked chain) where the two weapons had to be of the same type, such as slashing or bladed, or throwing....
Alternatively, give professional soldier/warrior this as a bonus feat every so often.
And while you are at it, make the 'old' spiked chain into a special type of magical weapon. ;-)
Creative Director
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Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but left the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
The bladed scarf is not in the PFRPG. If and when we update it, it'll be addressed then.
Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but are going to leave the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.The bladed scarf is not in the PFRPG. If and when we update it, it'll be addressed then.
O.K., I fixed the tense in my original statement.
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The bladed scarf is not in the PFRPG. If and when we update it, it'll be addressed then.Yes, although if they nerfed the spiked chain but left the bladed scarf the way it is, my brain's going to explode.The Spiked Chain got nerfed? Great, it was the worst addition to 3.0.
All together goofy.
Hopefully sooner than later there will be a PCS update. I would even pay $5 for a PFRPG PCS PDF Update.
I never actually got around to playing the system, but it seems to have worked out fine. It didn't have any spiked chains though.
No; its exotic weapons are much more ridiculous. :-)
Seriously, I'm pretty sure that gluing an axe head and a bunch of spikes to a sword doesn't make it more dangerous! Well, maybe to the user. :-)
