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EVERY DUNGEON IS A DEATHTRAP
Only a Suicidal Idiot would go into a Dungeon. Most D&D Dungeons fail on the grounds that if you apply real world subsidence rules, the damn things would have caved in during construction.
100% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover depth=1.1-1.4
10% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover Depth=0.1-0.5
The Range depends on the Rock type. The High Thresholds are more likely Granite, midway is Sandstone and Limestone, while the low end of the scale is Dirt/Gravel.
That means that a cave with a 50' cross section sitting below 20' of rock has a value of 2.5 (well in excess of 100% Subsidence): Such a cave began to transfer the effects of subsidence to the surface back at 10% so the ground will be sagging and unless this chamber is propped up with columns it will collapse like a sinkhole.
Likewise a 10' wide tunnel below 20' of rock has a value of 0.5 (at the upper limit of 10% subsidence). Here the stress of failure has reached the surface - Fine cracks that will probably not be visible at the surface due to topsoil.
REDUCING SUBSIDENCE TO 10%
Column Width= 0.12 x cover depth
Goaf (space between columns) width = 0.6 x cover depth.
What does it mean? Our 50' cross-section cave above can be reduced to a subsidence of 10% by including at time of construction columns to support the ceiling.
Column Width: 0.12 x 20' = 2.4'
Column Spacing: 0.6 x 20' = 12'
that is a Chamber supported by 2.4' wide columns spaced 12' apart. Inflict some damage to those columns (beyond the damage inflicted by the existing subsidence) and the entire Dungeon will have to be tested (%percentage roll for each chamber and corridor) as to whether it has collapsed with the mountain coming down on the Adventurers.
SUBSIDENCE AT THE SURFACE
When Subsidence exceeds 10% it begins to show at the surface. To determine the Surface Area Affected by Subsidence, you must take a 35 degree angle from the bottom of the workings edge. This means that even Rock that doesn’t overlap a collapsed/failing Cave will be showing failure. The Actual depth of collapse is measured by:
Subsidence= 0.8 x cave height
So our 50' cross section cave with its 15' high chamber will if and when it collapses create a 12' deep sinkhole with signs of subsidence out to (SIN 35 degrees x 35')= 20' beyond the area of the cave (effectively the 50' cave left a hole 90' across - slopping down into a 12' deep, 50' wide pit).
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Sorry, but what's your point exactly?
I thought we called in "fantasy" because it isn't supposed to be realistic. Otherwise, we'd being playing Cubicles and Accountants.
-Skeld
Firstly, this Subsidence stuff is used in one published D&D Adventure (B6 Veiled Society) back on the early 1980's. There is a Cave network being dug beneath the city of Specularum. In one cave (25' cross section, 5' high below 10' of earth) you encounder Kobolds who are propping the ceiling with a Timber column and Beams. Without the Timber that Chamber is at 25/10=2.5 (well above 100% fail) and with the single timber support pillar holding up ceiling beams it is closer to 60% fail.
Secondly, It has relevence to idiots who like to tunnel through walls to create a shortcut (new mining requires you to test for collapse).
And thirdly, I dont recall any nifty magic to prop up the Gravity defying caverns of coughandyoudie being included in the game.
Sorry, but what's your point exactly?
I thought we called in "fantasy" because it isn't supposed to be realistic. Otherwise, we'd being playing Cubicles and Accountants.
-Skeld
Firstly, this Subsidence stuff is used in one published D&D Adventure (B6 Veiled Society) back on the early 1980's. There is a Cave network being dug beneath the city of Specularum. In one cave (25' cross section, 5' high below 10' of earth) you encounder Kobolds who are propping the ceiling with a Timber column and Beams. Without the Timber that Chamber is at 25/10=2.5 (well above 100% fail) and with the single timber support pillar holding up ceiling beams it is closer to 60% fail.
Secondly, It has relevence to idiots who like to tunnel through walls to create a shortcut (new mining requires you to test for collapse).
And thirdly, I dont recall any nifty magic to prop up the Gravity defying caverns of coughandyoudie being included in the game.
excellent point- and giants cant walk because they would collapse on themselves, dragons cant fly, dont get me started on huge vermin (though I see they recently found the fossil of a 13m (about 44ft) long snake in south america)
Having said that I reckon Durkon from order of the Stick has an explanation for the structural stuff.
I do like the idea that those who try and tunnel around the special door or wall of force just collapse the dungeon-only do it once to teach those pesky PC's- but it does make destroying a whole complex a bit easy and thus boring. (I summon an earth elemental and tell it to glide into the dungeon destroy the support pillars)
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Werecorpse the Sorcerer: "I summoned an earth elemental and told it to glide into the dungeon and destroy the support pillars!"
King Hurst: "The evil necromancer was holding the heir to the Kindom in that Dungeon...Guards Kill this animal and then his family!"
There are ten thousand reasons why you go into the dungeon being propped up by a single support column...most of them are to retrieve something that would be damaged by the Mountain collapse.
This ought to cut down on non-magical tunneling!
While excess realism borders on nonsense in a fantasy world, this is why Profession(mining) and Knowledge(Dungeoneering) are both important skills to have.
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I do like the idea that those who try and tunnel around the special door or wall of force just collapse the dungeon-only do it once to teach those pesky PC's- but it does make destroying a whole complex a bit easy and thus boring. (I summon an earth elemental and tell it to glide into the dungeon destroy the support pillars)
Actually it only applies to Dungeons that are within less than 100' of the next surface. So tunnels crossing beneath another tunnel might se a collapse but if you are in a large cave a few hundred feet below ground then it is less likely to fall in on you than if you were in a cave of the same size just below the surface.
ex- A 20' wide tunnel descends into the ground at a gentle slope. Near the Surface where the tunnel is covered by 10' of rock, the prospect of subsidence failure is 20'/10' = 2 (way over 100%) and requires columns to prop the tunnel.
10' (2 rows of columns):
Column width: 0.12 x 10 = 1.2'
Spacing: 0.6 x 10 = 6'
20'(1 row of columns):
Column width: 0.12 x 20 = 2.4'
Spacing: 0.6 x 20 = 12'
30'(1 row of columns):
Column width: 0.12 x 30 = 3.6'
Spacing: 0.6 x 30 = 18'
40'(1 row of columns):
Column width: 0.12 x 40 = 4.8'
Spacing: 0.6 x 40 = 24'
Once the Tunnel gets to fifty feet below the surface it is 20/50=0.4 (about 10%) so columns are not particularly needed at this point.
Once the tunnel reaches the Cavern of Certain Doom down at 100' below surface you are in a cavern 80' across/50' high beneath 50' of rock so the cave is 80/50 =1.6 (just over 100%).
0.6 x 50' = width of column (6')
0.12 x 50' = space between columns (30')
So there are probably four or five columns propping the cavern roof to keep it from collapsing. Each column should be around 194-200hp. So the Dragon hold up in the cavern can unleash up to two hundred HP in indiscriminent breath weapon/tail sweep damage before the columns shatter, the ceiling colapses, and everyone dies.
The same cavern 1000' below surface would be at 80/1000=0.08 (1% maybe). It doesnt need columns supporting the ceiling. So the most dangerous part of the Dungeon would be up near the surface as your PCs enter the 20' wide tunnel.
EVERY DUNGEON IS A DEATHTRAP
Only a Suicidal Idiot would go into a Dungeon. Most D&D Dungeons fail on the grounds that if you apply real world subsidence rules, the damn things would have caved in during construction.
100% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover depth=1.1-1.4
10% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover Depth=0.1-0.5The Range depends on the Rock type. The High Thresholds are more likely Granite, midway is Sandstone and Limestone, while the low end of the scale is Dirt/Gravel.
That means that a cave with a 50' cross section sitting below 20' of rock has a value of 2.5 (well in excess of 100% Subsidence): Such a cave began to transfer the effects of subsidence to the surface back at 10% so the ground will be sagging and unless this chamber is propped up with columns it will collapse like a sinkhole.
Likewise a 10' wide tunnel below 20' of rock has a value of 0.5 (at the upper limit of 10% subsidence). Here the stress of failure has reached the surface - Fine cracks that will probably not be visible at the surface due to topsoil.REDUCING SUBSIDENCE TO 10%
Column Width= 0.12 x cover depth
Goaf (space between columns) width = 0.6 x cover depth.What does it mean? Our 50' cross-section cave above can be reduced to a subsidence of 10% by including at time of construction columns to support the ceiling.
Column Width: 0.12 x 20' = 2.4'
Column Spacing: 0.6 x 20' = 12'that is a Chamber supported by 2.4' wide columns spaced 12' apart. Inflict some damage to those columns (beyond the damage inflicted by the existing subsidence) and the entire Dungeon will have to be tested (%percentage roll for each chamber and corridor) as to whether it has collapsed with the mountain coming down on the Adventurers.
SUBSIDENCE AT THE SURFACE
When Subsidence exceeds 10% it begins to show at the surface. To determine the Surface Area Affected by Subsidence, you must take a 35 degree angle from the bottom of the workings edge. This means that even Rock that doesn’t overlap a...
Sorry, but not every DM has time to study civil engineering just so their dungeons seem a little more realistic.
An interesting exercise to be sure.
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How would this take into into account block, flagstone, and other dungeons with built-up walls of some sort? Also what about using arched ceilings and other architectural features meant to distribute the overhead loads to the sides where the weight can be borne?
If people ask I usually just describe either an arch, dome, stepped vault or groin vault if asked. Hell, if the Romans could do what they did thousands of years ago, then I can assume it is doable using some simple to describe architectural elements.
A fireball would consume all the oxygen in it's radius, leaving a minor vacuum in it's place momentarily until the air rushes to fill the void.
In D&D you can jump 30+ feet.
A common person can be killed by a cat in one round if the cat gets lucky.
I like realistic elements in my fantasy but sometimes a line is necessary.
That's why it's D&D and not Sim-Dungeon.
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How would this take into into account block, flagstone, and other dungeons with built-up walls of some sort? Also what about using arched ceilings and other architectural features meant to distribute the overhead loads to the sides where the weight can be borne?
If people ask I usually just describe either an arch, dome, stepped vault or groin vault if asked. Hell, if the Romans could do what they did thousands of years ago, then I can assume it is doable using some simple to describe architectural elements.A fireball would consume all the oxygen in it's radius, leaving a minor vacuum in it's place momentarily until the air rushes to fill the void.
In D&D you can jump 30+ feet.
A common person can be killed by a cat in one round if the cat gets lucky.I like realistic elements in my fantasy but sometimes a line is necessary.
That's why it's D&D and not Sim-Dungeon.
You mean where the Pathfinder Manual has a nice section on designing that dungeon...with two sentances on Subsidence and Columns: Sometimes the roof falls in and the Columns get larger in diameter the further underground they are.
I can see where you are overburdened by rules there.
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The Underworld
Through the Burning Midden of Ash that is Gehenna, beyond the Altar of Moloch the Obsenity where children are sacrificed to the God of Fire, deep beneath everything is the Underworld. A space beneath the rock above and below that extends forever - seperated only by support columns.
As the Underworld is continuous in cross section then it is well beyond fail at 24,000 miles/3 miles = 8000 then the columns must be impressive. 15840 x 0.12 = 1,901' diameter with spacing of 15840 x 0.6 =9,504' spacing. These are special columns however.
As the underworld (despite the surface's circumference of 24,000 miles) is not a limit but a continuous space between a shell and a sphere, The columns that prevent a collapse are spheres of purest mithril and they roll as the world above moves about the world below.
Dwarves and Mithril
The Dwerg (Dwarves) have been mining the Mithril Columns that prevent the Underworld from collapsing in on itself. When this happens the Upper world will be destroyed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Dear all who responded to this thread,
Thank you for keeping Yellowdingo distracted while we rebuilt Tokyo.
Tokyo v 25.7 will go online in ... 10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ... 6 ... 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... 0!
Good work everyone. Verisimilitude maintained. Believable integrity achieved.
Dear all who responded to this thread,
Thank you for keeping Yellowdingo distracted while we rebuilt Tokyo.
Tokyo v 25.7 will go online in ... 10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ... 6 ... 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... 0!
Good work everyone. Verisimilitude maintained. Believable integrity achieved.
LOL. Funny as the dickens!!!!!!!!
You know, youd be suprised how often conversations like this come up in play when there are several intelligent/educated players and or DM involved.
We recently got into a lengthy tabletop discussion on aquatics and the hows and whys a fighter in full plate couldnot be rescued from drowining by a summoned shark, but a human in a wet suit could "Swim with the dolphins" per se.
There was one side arguing that thing weight less in the water and the other side arguing metal has no bouyancy and its not weightlessness its bouyancy vs weight.
Needless to say they just charmed the orca instead of using the summoned shark,but whatever, they saved the fighter.
BUT it could have easily been an discussion of cave collapse (seeing as they tried to dump the scaffoling the evil priestess was standing on?
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You know, youd be suprised how often conversations like this come up in play when there are several intelligent/educated players and or DM involved.
BUT it could have easily been an discussion of cave collapse (seeing as they tried to dump the scaffoling the evil priestess was standing on?
Only if the Scaffolding were propping the ceiling of the Dungeon (like she was secretly tunneling up into the Vault of the Bank and didnt want anyone to notice the formation of cracks in the building structure)...
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Natural Subsidence over time and Magical Tunneling
As a mine is increased through mining it becomes increasingly unstable due to the natural failure over time. Rate of time failure is determined by a curve associated with the rate at which mining occured.
What does this mean? A tunnel cut slowly by Dwarves might progress toward a natural failure over years or even centuries. Whereas the use of Disintergrate to dig your way through is considered an instantaneous advance which means the natural progression toward failure is instantaneous.
The use of Disintergrate to tunnel instantly pushes the rock structure to 100% before adjusting to its new subsidence value (ex-removal of a 10' x 10' x 10' cube below 10' of rock by disintergrate requires a check against the cave's new 10% subsidence because of the instantaneous stress change).
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I must say if this discussion has open my mind in dungeon creation... but i not going to beat myself over it when playing in dungeon like for example undermountain.
but again it is good to know the maths for it. if i do want to beat myself
Consider yourself "GATED" into the Underworld. You can tell us all about how you survived the giant moving Mitril Bearings and the ghosts...if you live.
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Consider yourself "GATED" into the Underworld. YOu can tell us all about how you survived the giant moving Mitril Bearings...if you live.I must say if this discussion has open my mind in dungeon creation... but i not going to beat myself over it when playing in dungeon like for example undermountain.
but again it is good to know the maths for it. if i do want to beat myself
Ok what do i see?
update:
^^ i dont mean any harm, infact i agree with you but for the sake of adventure if in module or etc the dungeon seesm like impossible i will ignore that fact and just enjoy the dungeon .... and bring it back the problem if and when required.
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Ok what do i see?Consider yourself "GATED" into the Underworld. YOu can tell us all about how you survived the giant moving Mitril Bearings...if you live.I must say if this discussion has open my mind in dungeon creation... but i not going to beat myself over it when playing in dungeon like for example undermountain.
but again it is good to know the maths for it. if i do want to beat myself
You hear a deafening rumble of large moving bearings of Mithril in the utter dark...well not utter darkness: here come some glowing ghosts by the thousands - they seem drawn to your living presence in the Underworld.
Oddly a number of them seem to be disappearing - infact the ones closer in disappear soon after. There seems to be a natural loss of ghosts as the darkness closes in on you from a particular direction...too bad the rumbling has thrown out your ability to concentrate.
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The unusual structual soundness of most dungeons is easily explained. Trust me, My dwarven Fighter with 16 ranks in knowledge engineering knows just how to explain it. I'd ask him but he's a fictional creation in a game... hmm, come to think of it, so are these dungeons that there are perfectly good explainations for.
I'll meet you halfway. Write some simple, usable collapse rules for us. Avoid real-world math, but preserve the "flavor" of what you're driving at.
I'd like to see such a thing included... but I don't think the 5' corridors thing is changing any time soon, and any rule that makes it more of a hassle for the GM/Mapper is a bad rule. A collapse rule that the GM/Mapper can willingly include and shrewd players will recognize is a good rule.
I don't think we need any new rules for this, I prefer to leave it up to when the GM or adventure designer decides it is appropriate.
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I don't think we need any new rules for this, I prefer to leave it up to when the GM or adventure designer decides it is appropriate.
Neither party in that conversation has a clue about how big a cave can be before it falls.
Pathfinder has-
"...Cave-ins and collapsing tunnels are extremely dangerous..."
DMG has-
"...as a rule of thumb, the deeper in the dungeon, the thicker the pillars..."
They dont tell you that it continues to fail over time based on the rate at which it was originally mined/excavated. The reason Instantaneous removal pushes it to 100% collapse before it stabilizes, Human Mines collapse after 8 years, Dwarf Constructions go somwhere after a hundred...and natural caves where material removal was achieved by water over a million years might not fail until the width/depth ratio is breached.
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As small note: your example above (original post) about the failure showing on the surface is a cool way to lure the PCs into going to a half collapse dungeon.
SURFACE SIGNS OF SUBSIDENCE
Cracks* - Sagging – Depression Bowl
Cracks* – Fissures – Chimneys
Cracks* - Block separation – Terracing
Cracks* - Sagging - Sinkholes
*Cracks are not always visible at the surface due to topsoil
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For the benefit of us all do you think you could post all these rules and information that you have?
I like to keep it for reference to be used at later stages. it seems to me that my next adventure will have old half collapse and collapsing caves and dungeon complexs. dungeon engineering to the rescue! dwarfs will feel much better more use for them other then propping up tables.
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Chapter 13:
Dungeons – Subsidence and Cave-ins
DETERMINING THE STATE OF A CAVE
Subsidence is defined by the cross-sectional width of a cave divided by its height below surface.
100% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover depth=1.1-1.4*
10% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover Depth=0.1-0.5*
*This range depends on the rock type. The high thresholds are more likely granite, midway is sandstone and limestone, while the low end of the scale is dirt/gravel.
ex-That means that a cave with a 50' cross section sitting below 20' of rock has a value of 2.5 (well in excess of 100% Subsidence): Such a cave began to transfer the effects of subsidence to the surface back at 10% so the ground will be sagging and unless this chamber is propped up with columns it will collapse like a sinkhole.
Likewise a 10' wide tunnel below 20' of rock has a value of 0.5 (at the upper limit of 10% subsidence). Here the stress of failure has reached the surface - Fine cracks that will probably not be visible at the surface due to topsoil.
REDUCING SUBSIDENCE TO 10%
Columns are rarely introduced after the effect. Standard Practice requires a column to be cut from the existing rock strata and left behind undisturbed by mining and excavation (It is rarely an Introduced column).
Column Width= 0.12 x cover depth
Goaf (space between columns) width = 0.6 x cover depth.
What does it mean? Our 50' cross-section cave above can be reduced to a subsidence of 10% by including at time of construction columns to support the ceiling.
Column Width: 0.12 x 20' = 2.4'
Column Spacing: 0.6 x 20' = 12'
ex-A chamber supported by 2.4' wide columns spaced 12' apart. Inflict some damage to those columns (beyond the damage inflicted by the existing subsidence) and the entire Dungeon will have to be tested (%percentage roll for each chamber and corridor) as to whether it has collapsed with the mountain coming down on the Adventurers.
SUBSIDENCE AT THE SURFACE
When Subsidence exceeds 10% it begins to show at the surface. To determine the Surface Area Affected by Subsidence, you must take a 35 degree angle from the bottom of the workings edge. This means that even Rock that doesn’t overlap a collapsed/failing Cave will be showing failure. The Actual depth of collapse at surface is 80% of actual cave height into which the rock may collapse.
Subsidence= 0.8 x cave height
Cave-edge collapse radius = SIN 35 degrees x depth of cave bottom
ex-So our 50' cross section cave with its 15' high chamber will if and when it collapses create a 12' deep sinkhole with signs of subsidence out to (SIN 35 degrees x 35') = 20' beyond the area of the cave (effectively the 50' cave left a hole 90' across - slopping down into a 12' deep, 50' wide pit).
SURFACE SIGNS OF SUBSIDENCE
10% <------------------------> 100%
Cracks* - Sagging – Depression Bowl**
Cracks* – Fissures – Chimneys
Cracks* - Block separation – Terracing
Cracks* - Sagging - Sinkholes
*Cracks are not always visible at the surface due to topsoil
** Often Associated with removal of water by wells in cities over time (Mexico city has experienced land changes of up to 21' due to collapse of water bearing strata).
NATURAL SUBSIDENCE OVER TIME AND MAGICAL TUNNELLING
As a mine is increased through mining it becomes increasingly unstable due to the natural failure over time. The rate of failure over time is determined by a curve associated with the rate at which mining occurred.
A tunnel cut slowly by Dwarves might progress toward a natural failure over years or even centuries. Whereas the use of Disintegrate to dig your way through is considered an instantaneous advance which means the natural progression toward failure is instantaneous.
The use of Disintegrate to tunnel instantly pushes the rock structure to 100% before adjusting to its new subsidence value (ex-removal of a 10' x 10' x 10' cube below 10' of rock by disintegrate requires a check against the cave's new 10% subsidence because of the instantaneous stress change).
ex-Our 50’ cross-section cave might progress to 100% subsidence over eight years but the instant someone uses a Disintegrate spell to tunnel through a wall, the section may collapse as a block or separate from the old cave as a stress boundary fissure or chimney.
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What would you have them do?
I think a fully designed dungeon with every aspect of dungeon design included...chambers on the verge of cave-in, monsters, treasure...Basically the Dungeon of Fire Opal that has been included in near every dungeon Masters guide -done this time to full detail instead of a few rooms. An actual adventure in the Pathfinder - so you know how to use the rules properly with notes on how they test played it.
And how big of a dungeon can you make if the constructor had a single, horizontal wall of force made permanent? You have a minimum of a 30' square that can support all amount of mass piled atop it. If you put a layer between the wall and your dungeon room, you'd never even have to know it was there, centuries after the fact even.
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And how big of a dungeon can you make if the constructor had a single, horizontal wall of force made permanent? You have a minimum of a 30' square that can support all amount of mass piled atop it. If you put a layer between the wall and your dungeon room, you'd never even have to know it was there, centuries after the fact even.
You need to read wall of force again. The caster can shape the wall of force into a "smooth vertical plane", not a horizontal one. Wall of force cannot be used to horizontally prop a ceiling.
While the wall is immune to damage, Spells, breath weapon and blocks living beings (operating in the etheral or material). It does not block mass. Thus falling rock can pass through a wall of force.
So even if you could use it to prop the roof, the ceiling could still pass through it when the ceiling collapses.
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the rules above
Thank you yellowdingo i will make note of that.
And how big of a dungeon can you make if the constructor had a single, horizontal wall of force made permanent? You have a minimum of a 30' square that can support all amount of mass piled atop it. If you put a layer between the wall and your dungeon room, you'd never even have to know it was there, centuries after the fact even.
So your wall of force could be cast to hang on the air to take all the weight of the surface?
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i... It does not block mass. Thus falling rock can pass through a wall of force...Are you sure that wall of force does not prevent people from crossing it? Did they change that from the previous editions? *looking at the books*
I was thrashing about for words: it blocks beings(functioning in the etheral or material plane) it does not prevent the passage of a stone because a stone is neither a being, nor a breath weapon, nor a spell(except where it is a spell) nor damage.
Thus it does not block a ceiling collapse (irrelevent realy because it does not apply horizontally).
I think the phrase "immune to damage of all kinds" covers the compression of masses of stone, avalanches, cave-ins, etcetera.
Otherwise, what you are saying is that a catapult stone or a thrown boulder from a giant slamming into the invisible wall bypasses it, since in and of its own right the boulder is not stopped. Nor would any projectile weapon be stopped by the wall. Rather defeats the purpose of a temporary non-damaging wall for it to be so easily bypassed. If it is that easy to bypass, then one might as well never use the spell, as walls of iron and stone are easier to cast and have the added bonus of blocking line of sight in addition to requiring fairly formidable attacks to breech, albiet no where near the level of 'immune to damage of all kinds'.
I seem to recall that the Return to White Plume Mountain features a lair embedded in the magma with a primary line of defense / construction being a series of shaped permanent walls of force, among quite a few other entertaining construction implementations I've seen in print.
By the by, I do believe that "vertical" is relative to the caster - so an ethereal or flying caster could certainly erect a series of permanent walls of force as structural elements. Alter one's own 'vertical' and 'horizontal', then cast the spells, rinse, lather, repeat as necessary. This is clearly possible in 3e terms, as the Stronghold Builder's Guide states that entire 'room sections' can be made from / reinforced with such walls of force if my memory is correct.
^_^
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I think the phrase "immune to damage of all kinds" covers the compression of masses of stone, avalanches, cave-ins, etcetera.
Otherwise, what you are saying is that a catapult stone or a thrown boulder from a giant slamming into the invisible wall bypasses it, since in and of its own right the boulder is not stopped. Nor would any projectile weapon be stopped by the wall. Rather defeats the purpose of a temporary non-damaging wall for it to be so easily bypassed. If it is that easy to bypass, then one might as well never use the spell, as walls of iron and stone are easier to cast and have the added bonus of blocking line of sight in addition to requiring fairly formidable attacks to breech, albiet no where near the level of 'immune to damage of all kinds'.
Thats the big question...is "damage" the same as "rock"? If yes then it fails its integrity if the area of spell aplication has pre-existing /ongoing damage moving through its surface. "Damage" implies the Wall of Force is being subjected to damage by the rock. but if the wall is immune to damage the rock is not a source of damage to the Wall.
So a ceiling could fall through even a vertical wall of force from above.
By the by, I do believe that "vertical" is relative to the caster - so an ethereal or flying caster could certainly erect a series of permanent walls of force as structural elements. Alter one's own 'vertical' and 'horizontal', then cast the spells, rinse, lather, repeat as necessary. This is clearly possible in 3e terms, as the Stronghold Builder's Guide states that entire 'room sections' can be made from / reinforced with such walls of force if my memory is correct.
Not any more..."The caster can form the wall into a flat vertical plane..." is pretty restricting.
It was incredibly late, so I overlooked the vertical limitation.
Portella, I like stronghold builder's guide. I've found it far more useful then most dungeon geomorph packs/books when putting together 'dungeons' that were lived in. The most fun I had with it was designing a high-level hangout/HQ for one group back in 3.0 play. Lyre of Building and a large stockpile of 10ft x 10ft x 10ft copper cubes, good times.
Skipping the wall of force (and possible wondrous architecture based on it), what about magically treated walls? How much an impact would such reinforcement have?
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I might buy the PDF the cool. What level spell would be required to lower the subsidience of a room? Let's make a spell and add to yellowdingo's rules so at least if used gm's had a source that they can use to make death traps into save places, until someone dispel the effect or disjunct it.
Ps.: could you post a link to the product (the book) please?
I don't think we need any new rules for this, I prefer to leave it up to when the GM or adventure designer decides it is appropriate.Neither party in that conversation has a clue about how big a cave can be before it falls.
Exactly. Neither needs to know, it's not about the physics, it's about the story, and about having fun...which this isn't.
I think the phrase "immune to damage of all kinds" covers the compression of masses of stone, avalanches, cave-ins, etcetera.
Otherwise, what you are saying is that a catapult stone or a thrown boulder from a giant slamming into the invisible wall bypasses it, since in and of its own right the boulder is not stopped. Nor would any projectile weapon be stopped by the wall. Rather defeats the purpose of a temporary non-damaging wall for it to be so easily bypassed. If it is that easy to bypass, then one might as well never use the spell, as walls of iron and stone are easier to cast and have the added bonus of blocking line of sight in addition to requiring fairly formidable attacks to breech, albiet no where near the level of 'immune to damage of all kinds'.
Thats the big question...is "damage" the same as "rock"? If yes then it fails its integrity if the area of spell aplication has pre-existing /ongoing damage moving through its surface. "Damage" implies the Wall of Force is being subjected to damage by the rock. but if the wall is immune to damage the rock is not a source of damage to the Wall. So a ceiling could fall through even a vertical wall of force from above.[/QUOTE="yellowdingo"]
Um, given how cave-ins, avalanches and similar underground incidents cause quanitified damage in game terms (among other things), I would say that on the technical basis that a wall of force stops the cave-in cold. Since the wall of force - at great cost from permanency is being employed to prevent the cave-in (and thus damaging everything beyond the barrier), I think the wall trumps the cave-in.
By the by, I do believe that "vertical" is relative to the caster - so an ethereal or flying caster could certainly erect a series of permanent walls of force as structural elements. Alter one's own 'vertical' and 'horizontal', then cast the spells, rinse, lather, repeat as necessary. This is clearly possible in 3e terms, as the Stronghold Builder's Guide states that entire 'room sections' can be made from / reinforced with such walls of force if my memory is correct.
Not any more..."The caster can form the wall into a flat vertical plane..." is pretty restricting. [/QUOTE="yellowdingo"]
Hrm - seems rather needlessly restricting, YMMV. Still, as a house rule (if nothing else) I do not see why one could NOT lay permanent walls of force - or, if need be, research a variant version of it basically for this specific purpose - atop two or more regular such walls. The wall not being shapable AND having the existing blockage restrictions (either creature or object within the wall's area foils the whole thing) seem sever enough. That having been said, if the spell was re-worded a bit it (shapable and formable as a single plane when cast; if cast horizontally it must be atop two vertical barriers that are already present to provide support; blahblah as needed) then it should probably be assigned as a 6th level spell instead of 5th. This would be primarily to place it at the same level at which its primary countermeasure also becomes available.
Like Troybot, I'd meet the original poster half-way. Some basic notions of the concept, which is obscure to most of us, would be a great addition to the "environment" part of the rules. However, a simplified and possibly abstracted version of subsidence and its corresponding maths would be required to make it D&D friendly.
As many pointed-out, it IS a fantasy world , but being educated on the matter makes the fantasy more believable, and more fun for some of us.
'findel
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Hell, if the Romans could do what they did thousands of years ago, then I can assume it is doable using some simple to describe architectural elements.
Good point !
How about the underground medieval cities in modern Turkey ?
Visiting them as I did, really makes you feel like you are visiting the Moria. Or like you're stuck in Fallout !
I remember also reading a DRAGON article on them, long (2e time) ago.
These things sghould not be possible, yet they are here IRL.