Was it your intention to deprive the nosferatu of a create spawn ability? How can it be claimed that these creatures are the "progenitors" of modern vampirism if they can't even engender vamp-spawn, let alone standard vampires or even other nosferatu?
Creative Director
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Was it your intention to deprive the nosferatu of a create spawn ability? How can it be claimed that these creatures are the "progenitors" of modern vampirism if they can't even engender vamp-spawn, let alone standard vampires or even other nosferatu?
Think of nosferatus as "primeval vampires." They aren't as "evolved" as the standard vampire. The wording in the monster entry's a little vague, but basically the thought is that some scholars believe that the nosferatu were the FIRST vampires. Eventually, they developed other powers, among them the create spawn ability, at which point those guys had become the more common vampire. The methods for becoming a nosferatu likely involve ancient curses or other sinister magic... but there's not a lot of them in the world. They're relatively rare. Most of those in existence have probably been in existence for a LOOOONG time, I suspect. There's probably something going on in Ustalav that makes them, though...
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The films Nosferatu and Shadow of the Vampire do fantastic jobs of presenting tragic, impotent vampires. The idea of vampirisim as a curse is something that’s been marginalized in the sexified Interview With the Vampire/Blade/Underworld-esque vampires of modern film. The concept of a vampire that is a victim of his immortality fascinates me, though. Max Shreck, in Shadow, for example, is so old that he’s forgotten who he was and what he can or can’t do. He thinks he might have once been able to make more like him, but he’s forgotten how. He is immortal, but all that really means is that his mind is rotting while his body is not. He’s lost himself to time and is trapped as a creature slowly becoming more and more akin to vermin than man.
There’s sort of a chicken and the egg thing going on here. The first vampire needed something to create him, so what’s to say that that something (divine curse, dark magic, etc, etc) couldn’t happen again. In fact, I don’t believe Dracula or Carmillia are ever described as having been fed upon. Their vampirism is a result of sins perpetrated during their lives.
As far as the impotent progenitor concept, I like the idea of vampirism as a curse gone wrong. As elegant, powerful, and sexy as vampires are often portrayed, the loss of ergonomic sleeping furniture and vacations to the beach seem like relatively small prices to pay. Somewhere vampirism changed from a curse of deathless exhaustion to a disease of super powers and moral ambiguity. The existence of creatures dating from a time before this change, who have been exceeded by the very disease that afflicts them, makes nosferatu seem all the more tragic, and interesting, to me.
Personally I love how the Nosferatu was handled here. I never have been a fan of the Energy Drain mechanic that has become the backbone of what made adventures fear vampires. This rendition has more of a classic feel to it, right down to the "wood and piercing" DR.
It really wouldn't be to hard to add in a create spawn ability for them if your really wished it.
Question: Is this right?
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +8.
emphasis mine. Granted, I've never made monsters this complex before, but I'm just a litle confused. Please forgive my asking is everything is perfectly ok. I'm not really sure where the +8 comes in. The sample stat block shows a +2 to the CR, so I'm not really sure where the +8 comes in.
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Question: Is this right?
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +8.emphasis mine. Granted, I've never made monsters this complex before, but I'm just a litle confused. Please forgive my asking is everything is perfectly ok. I'm not really sure where the +8 comes in. The sample stat block shows a +2 to the CR, so I'm not really sure where the +8 comes in.
I think (though I don't have the MM to hand so I can't be sure) that that's the same as SRD Vampires, +2 CR, but a +8 LA. The key thing to remember about CR versus LA is that you're dealing with how difficult they would be for a 4-person party to take out one on one, versus how powerful they are as long term player characters. If you look at the template as something attached to a monster it gets a lot of nice stuff (and a few nasty weaknesses), but a 4-person party a couple of levels higher than the CR of the base creature should be able to take them out ok, thus +2 CR, but if you think of it as something attached to a player character *shudders* a pretty big LA is needed, I mean if they keep their coffin somewhere less than an hour away they can't die unless an NPC specifically tracks it down! Admittedly given the spawn creation is a part of that adjustment (and not a small one, free minions FTW!) perhaps it should be dropped a little for Nosferatu, but they still get a lot of nifty special attacks and qualities, stat adjusts, a handful of free feats and all the usual immunities of undead, plus y'know, the whole not dying thing :).
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The twist with the DR / wood & piercing is a nice move to reflect the classic vulnerability to (or by? Sorry, english is not my first language and sometimes I'm unsure on the proper wording...) wooden stakes. I like this template even more than the SRD vampire. But I don't think that the mentioned mechanic is really enough to reflect the effects of wooden stakes on vampires that we know in literature. You know, the instant death thing when the stake pierces the vampires heart.
How would you simulate that in game?
I'd rule that whenever a critical hit with a piercing and wooden weapon is confirmed, the weapon destroys the vampires heart. This seems right in terms of flavour, but does it make the vampire too weak? Maybe... How would you rule this or would you don't touch this issue at all?
I think (though I don't have the MM to hand so I can't be sure) that that's the same as SRD Vampires, +2 CR, but a +8 LA. The key thing to remember about CR versus LA is that you're dealing with how difficult they would be for a 4-person party to take out one on one, versus how powerful they are as long term player characters. If you look at the template as something attached to a monster it gets a lot of nice stuff (and a few nasty weaknesses), but a 4-person party a couple of levels higher than the CR of the base creature should be able to take them out ok, thus +2 CR, but if you think of it as something attached to a player character *shudders* a pretty big LA is needed, I mean if they keep their coffin somewhere less than an hour away they can't die unless an NPC specifically tracks it down! Admittedly given the spawn creation is a part of that adjustment (and not a small one, free minions FTW!) perhaps it should be dropped a little for Nosferatu, but they still get a lot of nifty special attacks and qualities, stat adjusts, a handful of free feats and all the usual immunities of undead, plus y'know, the whole not dying thing :).
Thanks. That makes alot of sense.
Maybe they don't create spawn, but other vampires view them as a kind of "spiritual" forebearers. I could see a group of vampire spawn with no controling vampire end up worshipping a nosferatu, bringing him offerings to feed upon. Even if the nosferatu didn't want the attention. In that way, they would have spawn around them, even if they themselves couldn't create them.
Anybody else think this guy would make a good miniature for a nosferatu?
The films Nosferatu and Shadow of the Vampire do fantastic jobs of presenting tragic, impotent vampires. The idea of vampirisim as a curse is something that’s been marginalized in the sexified Interview With the Vampire/Blade/Underworld-esque vampires of modern film. The concept of a vampire that is a victim of his immortality fascinates me, though...Somewhere vampirism changed from a curse of deathless exhaustion to a disease of super powers and moral ambiguity. The existence of creatures dating from a time before this change, who have been exceeded by the very disease that afflicts them, makes nosferatu seem all the more tragic, and interesting, to me.
Not to sound overly "old-school", but thanks for taking a different tack on vampires - both in how you describe the nosferatu and your development of them in CotCT. I enjoyed playing White Wolf's system and style as much as anybody, but this idea is one that I'm glad someone has revived, or at least revisioned.
Even Stoker's novels, with their application of refined/sophisticated vampires, lays out these are unnatural creatures of immortal and horrible power. So, tackling its more sinister origins is a great change of pace, I think, for gameplay.
all in all I was very happy with the nosferatu write up, although I would have liked to have seen some sort of disease spreading ability...
in "Nosferatu: a Symphony of Horror" where (the real) Max Schreck plays Orlok, one of the first things that anybody notices about his arrival is that an epidemic ensues in the town (Colera I think).
all in all I was very happy with the nosferatu write up, although I would have liked to have seen some sort of disease spreading ability...
in "Nosferatu: a Symphony of Horror" where (the real) Max Schreck plays Orlok, one of the first things that anybody notices about his arrival is that an epidemic ensues in the town (Colera I think).
Ooooh, that would be cool. Had we room to do variants that'd be at the top of the list!
We're still kind of working out how we handle templates in Pathfinder and don't do them often, mainly due to space constraints. It was REALLY hard to fit this one in, but I'm glad we did, even if a few bits ended up on the cutting room floor. If I get my way, though, we'll hear more about Arkminos and Conte Tiriac in the future (at least one of those come August).
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The twist with the DR / wood & piercing is a nice move to reflect the classic vulnerability to (or by? Sorry, english is not my first language and sometimes I'm unsure on the proper wording...) wooden stakes. I like this template even more than the SRD vampire. But I don't think that the mentioned mechanic is really enough to reflect the effects of wooden stakes on vampires that we know in literature. You know, the instant death thing when the stake pierces the vampires heart.
How would you simulate that in game?
I'd rule that whenever a critical hit with a piercing and wooden weapon is confirmed, the weapon destroys the vampires heart. This seems right in terms of flavour, but does it make the vampire too weak? Maybe... How would you rule this or would you don't touch this issue at all?
Sorry to quote myself, but I'd really like to know your opinions on this question.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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How would you simulate that in game?
I'd rule that whenever a critical hit with a piercing and wooden weapon is confirmed, the weapon destroys the vampires heart. This seems right in terms of flavour, but does it make the vampire too weak? Maybe... How would you rule this or would you don't touch this issue at all?Sorry to quote myself, but I'd really like to know your opinions on this question.
I agree. I'd say a confirmed crit from a wooden piercing weapon, not just a piercing weapon, would be a crit as per the rules with the ability to confirm a second time for an instant kill crit. I'd also say that it would have to be a natural 20 to initiate the possibility as a keen weapon or higher range weapon could make an instant kill too easy to achieve. I think the potential should be there to do a heart-crit, but it should be more difficult than a standard crit since it essentially kills the monsters no matter its current HP.
I agree. I'd say a confirmed crit from a wooden piercing weapon, not just a piercing weapon, would be a crit as per the rules with the ability to confirm a second time for an instant kill crit. I'd also say that it would have to be a natural 20 to initiate the possibility as a keen weapon or higher range weapon could make an instant kill too easy to achieve. I think the potential should be there to do a heart-crit, but it should be more difficult than a standard crit since it essentially kills the monsters no matter its current HP.
How would you simulate that in game?
I'd rule that whenever a critical hit with a piercing and wooden weapon is confirmed, the weapon destroys the vampires heart. This seems right in terms of flavour, but does it make the vampire too weak? Maybe... How would you rule this or would you don't touch this issue at all?Sorry to quote myself, but I'd really like to know your opinions on this question.
not to mention the fact that undead are normaly immune to crits anyway.
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Remember that traditionally vampires aren't instantly killed by a stake to the heart, it just paralyzes them. Remove the stake, the vampire gets back up again. The Buffyverse and other modern sources (like Blade) that have "mook" vampires to kill have skewed the perception of the vampire's vulnerability with their instant-kill heartstaking. That is a recent phenomenon.
Bop-ba, da da da.
Phenomenon.
Bop doo dee doo.
Phenomenon.
Bop-ba, da da da
Da da da
Da da da
Da da da
Bop ba do do do-do-do.
OTOH, vampire spawn appear to have been created to fit exactly that stereotype.
Bop-ba, da da da.
Phenomenon.
Bop doo dee doo.
Phenomenon.
Bop-ba, da da da
Da da da
Da da da
Da da da
Bop ba do do do-do-do.
Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.
Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.
Mike got it. Maybe you're too young to get it.
Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.Mike got it. Maybe you're too young to get it.
Too young to experience it first hand maybe, but between Jacobs and Sernett not too young to have it haunt my dreams.
Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.Mike got it. Maybe you're too young to get it.Too young to experience it first hand maybe, but between Jacobs and Sernett not too young to have it haunt my dreams.
Awww jeez...
I'm not too young, and it's already stuck in my head and wearing a groove in my sanity.
For love of pete, Sean, why?
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Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.Mike got it. Maybe you're too young to get it.
c'mon I'm 24 and I got it! used to love the muppet show.. and I also had a splitter on my cable/dvd/videogame systems/laptop that set priorites to certain systems... so in the dorms I would randomly play this on my laptop (highest priority so would overpower all other input to the TV) when ever my apartment mates needed to get off my TV.
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I agree. I'd say a confirmed crit from a wooden piercing weapon, not just a piercing weapon, would be a crit as per the rules with the ability to confirm a second time for an instant kill crit. I'd also say that it would have to be a natural 20 to initiate the possibility as a keen weapon or higher range weapon could make an instant kill too easy to achieve. I think the potential should be there to do a heart-crit, but it should be more difficult than a standard crit since it essentially kills the monsters no matter its current HP.Yes, good idea. Natural 20 should be the way to go, regardless of keen weapons and other mechanics that facillitate critical hits.not to mention the fact that undead are normaly immune to crits anyway.
Yes, I'm fully aware of that, but I thought it'd be easier to use an existing mechanic than to invent something "new" that has nearly the same effect.
Remember that traditionally vampires aren't instantly killed by a stake to the heart, it just paralyzes them. Remove the stake, the vampire gets back up again. The Buffyverse and other modern sources (like Blade) that have "mook" vampires to kill have skewed the perception of the vampire's vulnerability with their instant-kill heartstaking. That is a recent phenomenon.
I'm aware of that too, but I have to admit that I phrased it really bad. :)
Sure, this shouldn't be an instant "kill". It paralyzes the Nosferatu and renders it helpless. He's aware of his surrounding though. On the other hand, the whole stake in the heart thing most certainly leads to an instant kill because the next logical step would be to chop it's head off and fill it's mouth with housels. At least, that's how we do it over here in europe...:DBut as a DM I'd call for a Knowledge (Religion) check to see, if the characters know this method.
Thanks for the replies, guys! THese were really helpful and are much appreciated! :)
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Creative Director
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Sean... dude. Your crazy is showing.Mike got it. Maybe you're too young to get it.Too young to experience it first hand maybe, but between Jacobs and Sernett not too young to have it haunt my dreams.
Excellent! Now I know exactly what's going to happen the next time you, me, and Matt are all in the same place at the same time. Hmm. Wonder when that might be? Maybe... IN TWO DAYS?
<prepares iPhone to have a certain catchy tune on it so he can produce said tune anywhere in the world at any time>
My main question about the Nosferatu template is whether or not the base creature must be at least ECL 6 in order to acquire the template, just as the SRD vampire template does. I could certainly just invoke DM fiat and apply the template to a kobold, but the resulting creature certainly isn't CR 2 1/2!
I have been kicking around an idea for a Grimlock Vampire for a while now, but I ran into the issue that the creature had to be a minimum CR of 8 by the RAW, or else was too powerful for the resulting CR3. I had pretty much abandoned that plan until I saw the nosferatu template, which much more closely resembled my notion of the blind, degenerate bat-thing I had in mind. However, before I just drop the template on the grimlock and sic it on my PCs, I would like to know if it was intentional on the designer's part not to include a minimum level requirement.
Robert "Pilfering Pathfinder For Fun and Profit" Ranting