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I couldn't find this comment elsewhere so I though I would start a new thread...
I very much like the idea of 0-th level spells being castable at will.
However, I would like to point out that this creates a situation where pretty much any stellcaster can detect magic at will.
I personally find that this might lead to some abuse. I've never been fond of Paladins having detect evil at will.
I understand that the Complete Mage's Warlock already has this "detect magic at will" ability. It's something that DM's can probably deal with by proper adventure planning, but still, I find this a bit too much. It will tend to trivialize magic detection and, by extension, the whole concept of magic being something mysterious. Basically this pushes the "high-fantasy" paradigm taken by 4th edition and doesn't have the Golarion/Grayhawk feel I would expect.
(My understanding is that 4th edition also allows for detect magic at will through the use of the Arcana skill...)
In any case, I believe getting detect magic at will by default (if you pick that spell in the morning of course) makes the current Magic cleric domain's power for level 2 useless: 2nd Detect Magic (Sp): You can cast detect magic at will.
[Alpha1: Page 54 - Magic Domain]
I must admit I can't think right now of a good way of fixing this...
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Remember that a spellcaster still has to prepare Detect Magic to use it "at will," which means there's one less slot available for Ray of Frost or Light or whatever. It's a choice, not an automatic ability (like the Magic domain ability).
But I don't understand why it would be a problem to have Detect Magic effectively "at will." I know for most of my characters, at a certain point (when I have enough 0-level spell slots), I always prepare Detect Magic because of its usefulness.
So (as an honest question) what specific problems do you have with using Detect Magic "at will"?
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I think the problem is less with being able to cast Detect Magic at will, and more with Detect Magic. Like most of the Detect Spells, it's a little too good for such a low level spell. It overcomes all but fairly extreme methods of hiding objects.
On the other hand, it's nice to have a quick way to go through the gear of the person you just defeated to pick out the magic.
I have typically been using the house rule that Detect X spells work on items within your line of sight. This makes it much easier to simply hide things.
Drew Garrett
The problem with Detect Magic as an At Will power is if it slows down the game. If a PC walks around and concentrates on Detect Magic everywhere he goes, the DM has to make notes on which areas and creatures have magic items or active spells, and what schools can be detected.
If Detect Magic takes extra time or otherwise can't be used until "after the action," to identify what items of loot are magical, that speeds up gameplay.
Possible Solution: Simply change the spell so it allows "turn-in-place" but no movement while maintaining the spell. If it takes an action to re-engage the detect after having moved, that would eliminate most of the abuses, I think.
Oh, and I like agarrett's suggestion that it only work line-of-sight.
Personally I think Detect Magic (and Detect Evil for Paladins) would would better as part of the their Skills. Knowledge Arcane (Religion). the stronger the aura the lower the DC. So that you are working backwards it could be something like
Strong Aura DC 15,
Medium Aura DC 20
Weak Aura DC 25
Paladins*
Good Aura DC 15,
Neutral Aura DC 20
Evil Aura DC 25
* Could do something similar with Clerics/ Detect Evil
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Possible Solution: Simply change the spell so it allows "turn-in-place" but no movement while maintaining the spell. If it takes an action to re-engage the detect after having moved, that would eliminate most of the abuses, I think.
Or have it be specifically targeted towards one item at a time. Since it's at-will now, going through the guy's stuff is now a non-issue; it just takes a bit longer. But you won't walk down the corridor detecting everything.
Director of Games
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Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
jason this sounds like a great fix I think i'll try it.
Make it so!
Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I dont see it as a real problem- at low level maybe but otherwise once the fighter has a magic item the 'first round' of concentration will just show the prescence of magic. Unless the spellcaster stands there focussing on the second round (how many and strongest aura) and then third (where) the party has to stop every 5' and wait 3 rounds- pretty unlikley, or the wizard walks at the front.
As for the invisible foe issue
rnd 1 "wait I sense the prescence of magic"
rnd 2 "hmm there is one source and it is of moderate strength"
Gaaahh! (invisible rogue appears with rapier stuck in the wizard)
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round.
How about:
without concentration - it takes a minute to get a 'feel' of magic in the air and then a round's concentration (doing nothing else but deep thought) to get a fix on it's source.
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Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
I don't think that detect magic needs to be changed so much, as add a paragraph to either detect magic or invisibility to address this issue, as it comes up a lot. I mean, with three rounds of concentration, doing nothing else, you can detect what square the invisible person is in, but they still get full concealment. That's no big deal.
we always handled the spell to only detect auras within line of sight. Otherwise it would be just too powerful as a "tracking sensor".
I also thougt it was clear that detect magic cannot "pinpoint" a creature being invisible, for it would make spells like "true seeing" nearly useless.
Personally, I like the 1 minute activation, so long as there's a clear definition of "concentration" to eliminate the chance of "I activate it first thing in the morning, and concentrate all day long" (Or, "I activate it as we start down the hallway and keep concentrating until we get into a fight").
Concentrating on something for a long time should cause fatigue or distraction, or limit the actions you can take, or something. But at the moment, I don't think there's any limit. (And for groups using existing 3.5 splatbooks, there are the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel, I believe, that make concentration even easier...)
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I dont see it as a real problem- at low level maybe but otherwise once the fighter has a magic item the 'first round' of concentration will just show the prescence of magic. Unless the spellcaster stands there focussing on the second round (how many and strongest aura) and then third (where) the party has to stop every 5' and wait 3 rounds- pretty unlikley, or the wizard walks at the front.
As for the invisible foe issue
rnd 1 "wait I sense the prescence of magic"
rnd 2 "hmm there is one source and it is of moderate strength"
Gaaahh! (invisible rogue appears with rapier stuck in the wizard)
I agree. Detecting magic should be as available for spellcasters as sneaking is for rogues or swinging a sword is for fighters, and the invisible creature question is a non-issue (for me, anyway) due to the fact that it takes several rounds of uninterrupted concentration to get any useful info besides "caution: magic ahead".
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Contributor
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I've been using unlimited 0-level spells pretty much exactly as written in the alpha (except that my stabilize spell brings characters to 0 hp), and the unlimited detect magic has never been a problem. It has been no more or less effective for finding/spotting invisible creatures than it ever was. I think the 1 minute concentration thing will be more of a problem, as it will add to the between encounter crawl actions (like searching every 5 foot square for traps does).
This has been my experience of extended play both as DM and player. It isn't a problem.
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Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Maybe more spellcasters will start using Magic Aura...
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This has been my experience of extended play both as DM and player. It isn't a problem.
Then maybe its just me. And that can be house ruled easily enough.
It's just that as a DM, I've grinded my teeth on more than a few occasions when the party's paladin would use his at will detect evil and ferret-out all my villains who weren't smart (or rich/powerful) enough to have misdirection on at the time.
I'm just worried that the same phenomena could happen with detect magic...
As always, the DM can build adventures with this in mind, just like one would for mid- and high-level adventure where PCs have access to other powerful divination spells.
Personally, I like the 1 minute casting time suggestion made by Jason.
Finally, regarding the Magic Domain's 2nd level power, I still believe that getting Detect Magic at will still isn't much of a payout when everyone else can do that too (at the expense of one orison spell slot). Maybe something like Magic Aura or Identify "1/day per 2 caster levels" would be more in line with the pattern I see in other domain powers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Kill or seriously gimp all detect spells or other divination spells. I think they usually work against the adventure plot as PCs cast a spell instead of using their brains.
This has been my experience of extended play both as DM and player. It isn't a problem.Then maybe its just me. And that can be house ruled easily enough.
It's just that as a DM, I've grinded my teeth on more than a few occasions when the party's paladin would use his at will detect evil and ferret-out all my villains who weren't smart (or rich/powerful) enough to have misdirection on at the time.
Every time I hear about paladins like this, I feel the need to bring up the expired "alignment is a guideline, not a straight jacket" equine.
Being evil, especially for some lowly minion, IS NOT A CRIME. The fact that the paladin has detected the evil portion of somebody's alignment (say, a neutral evil person), does not give the paladin any rights at all to do ANYTHING to the poor neutral evil sap. The paladin may not arrest him, attack him, or otherwise bother him in any way, unless that is the law of the land that the paladin is enforcing. At which point I suggest the problem is not with the paladin or the rules, but with the campaign world.
I've been playing a warlock in Rise of the Runelords and a retooled paladin of magic in another campaign. Both can Detect Magic at will. OK the first 2-3 sessions were annoying as I detected magic everywhere, but after awhile the pace picked back up when the DM would just be ready with the magic when the combat calmed down.
Those first 2-3 sessions of detecting magic were no more annoying than an obsessive rogue in a dungeon crawl. OK I'm searching for traps, listening to the door, unlocking the door, searching the room, searching for secret doors...
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Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Love it!
Howdy everybody,
Concerning Detect Magic, there was a thought floating around that it should take 1 whole minute of concentration before it picked up auras, instead of one round. This might eleviate some of the concerns, as few parties would be willing to wait constantly while the wizard was detecting for magic. It would also prevent the detection of invisible creatures before they struck.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Generally I don't understand why the system hasn't gone more Warlock on things and granted a the following 1 per day per level+3.
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Minor Missile(see below)
minor Missile(magic missle but roll to hit touch attack only does 1D4, 5th level 1D6, 10th 1D8,15th 1D10, 1D12 at 20th with a damage bonus of INT bonus or something).
At 4th level the mage should be able to cast Cantrips as a quickened action 1/day.
At 8th level the mage should be able to cast 1st level spells as a quickened action 1/day and cantrips quickened continually
At 12th level the mage should be able to cast 2nd level spells as a quickened action 1/day , 1st level should be quickened continually and no maximum use for cantrips.
At 16th level the mage should be able to cast 3rd level spells as a quickened action 1/day and so on......
My view of high level mage is Cantrips are so simple to him they are just a minor thought and a flick of the finger, very high level should be able to do 2nd level spell as a simple task( Quickened).