Wrestling with logic in Hook Mountain (spoilers)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have had problems with Hook Mountain--it reads well, but seems to have logic issues when run.

(1) The Graul farmstead is half a mile from the village and therefore must be practically on the road between the village and Fort Rannick. And has been there for at least a decade, given some of the details (the cache of baby-girl bones in particular). I caught this on the fly and moved it to an hour away, and my player still felt it was way too close--there's no way the rangers and townsfolk should have missed it.

This sort of thing works in real-world settings because no one expects cannibal ogres next door. However, in Turtle Ferry they *do* expect cannibal ogres next door, and don't have to worry about "Are we allowed to shoot them?"

Fix: move the farmstead a lot further from the town. Halfway between Fort Rannick and Turtle Ferry, and well off the road, strikes me as
best.

(2) Skull Crossing is 10,000 years old. We're expected to believe that in 10,000 years no one has walked into that control chamber and done anything at all to the pit fiends?! We haven't had that scene yet, but there's no way my player is going to believe that.

Fix: a Wall of Force openable only by using a Sihedron amulet as a key.

(3) Why don't the four trolls kill the five ogres? I had a lot of fast talking to do here--my player's initial reaction was "This is totally unbelievable, there must be something else going on."

I don't have a good fix for this. I can't figure out what was supposed to have happened up there.

(4) When the flood comes, it gouges into Turtle Ferry but does not destroy the upriver road. I just can't describe this plausibly. In the narrow canyon the flood spares the road, but on the wide lake it is deep enough to flood the village? How does that happen? The villagers send someone *upriver* into the flood to ask for help--does that make sense?

I don't have a good fix for this. Luckily it doesn't seem likely to happen in my game. Pity to lose the flood, but it's really hard to get it to happen the way it's described.

(5) Black Magga in the lake is a pretty intractable problem to end the module on. Hm, we were heroes, we saved the village...oops, they're all doomed anyway, and it's a monster way beyond what we can handle. Too bad.

I'm just going to leave Black Magga in the Storval Deeps. She'll be happier in deep water anyway.

I like the scenery and atmosphere of this module a lot, and the derelict ship in the marsh is extremely cool, but it was a pain to run because I kept tripping over the logic issues.

Mary


Your fixes # 1 and 2 are GREAT, and, if I may, I plan on adopting them as well...curious to hear paizo's take on 3-6...


I would have to double check the stats and stuff for #3, but it does say that the trolls did tear up the ogres a bit at first, until the ogres thought up the idea to toss unconscious trolls into the water, thus drowning them.

I think at the point the party shows up the trolls figure they can wait out the remaining ogres, as the ogres seem to have lost alot of their spirit in destroying the dam.


I don't think #5 is really an issue. Black Magga isn't much more threatening in the Claybottom than she was in the Storval Deep. She's certainly no more of a direct threat than 40-50 ogres living just as close. 40-50 ogres is a significantly higher encounter level than a single CR 15 monster.

In fact, she's much less threatening, if you read the Habitat & Society entry for Mothers of Oblivion. That states that MoOs shun daylight and try to keep their presence secret from the surface world. They're masterminds, not brutes. In that sense, she's nothing more than another intelligent monster capable of bossing other monsters around.

Also, a CR 15 isn't really out of the picture for a group of level 8-9 PCs to kill. Heck, I had a party of 3 PCs leveled from 6 to 8 kill a CR 11 green dragon focused entirely on aerial combat, and they beat her without any of them flying.


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pres man wrote:

I would have to double check the stats and stuff for #3, but it does say that the trolls did tear up the ogres a bit at first, until the ogres thought up the idea to toss unconscious trolls into the water, thus drowning them.

I think at the point the party shows up the trolls figure they can wait out the remaining ogres, as the ogres seem to have lost alot of their spirit in destroying the dam.

I'm just having trouble reconstructing the whole scenario there.

As far as I can tell, immediately after the ogres took Fort Rannick they sent 24 ogres and a leader to Skull Crossing. The ogres bribed the ettin, fought the trolls and tossed "several" into the water, lost some of their number (the bodies can be seen in the skull building) and started to chip on the dam.

News of the loss of contact with Fort Rannick gets to Magnimar, and the Mayor asks the PCs to investigate. That takes at least a week for people to become suspicious and a week for news to reach Magnimar. (Probably longer). The PCs travel to Fort Rannick--it took mine 10 days to get there, but they started north of Sand Point. A week, anyway.

The PCs retake the fort, which has been in enemy hands for at least three weeks by now. (This is hard but not impossible to reconcile with the state of the fort--it looks like it was taken only a few days ago, but the ogres might have been stringing out their last captives for fun.)

Some unspecified time later, but presumably after the PCs have received word that they now own Fort Rannick--two more weeks at least!--the ogres attract Black Magga's attention and she eats some. The dam breaks. The water goes down to Turtle Ferry, which sends a rider to the PCs, who go down there, deal with the flood, and come back to Skull Crossing. This takes several days minimum, barring teleport or overland flight.

When they arrive, they find four trolls and five ogres. That situation has apparently been stable for several days. The ogres are still chipping, despite having lost 19/25 of their numbers.

Why are the ogres still chipping? Why aren't the trolls attacking? It looks like this whole situation is static--nothing is happening up there until the PCs arrive. My player won't buy this. The ettin hasn't eaten his smoked humans, the trolls haven't eaten their dead ogres, and gods only know what the ogres are eating, trapped on the dam like that. The trolls have been trapped on the dam--if they went out, they would already have confronted the ettin. Everyone acts like the ogres just arrived today, but they have apparently been there for a month or more.

The whole thing could really use a timeline. I was going crazy trying to answer very basic questions: how long ago did Fort Rannick fall? How long ago did the ogres leave for Skull Crossing? How long ago did Barl arrive at Hook Mountain? I suppose the author felt he was being flexible, but I found it incredibly hard to come up with consistent answers--I kept contradicting myself. How long ago did Paradise sink? How long has Lucrezia been at Fort Rannick?

You could make things a lot better if the ogres left for Skull Crossing the day before the PCs arrived to retake the Fort. And if the flood is fairly soon thereafter (the intended timing of the flood is hazy to me, but if you don't have to wait for word from Magnimar it really helps).

My general plea to Paizo is: timelines! I know you don't want to timeline what happens during the module because it's helpful if the GM can adjust to player actions. But for heaven's sake, events that are before the adventure starts could be listed with a detailed timeline! My player always asks, the information is never there, and it drives me up the wall. If I improvise I get contradicted by later details. If I try to make everything consistent I spend hours scouring the module for little clues, and sometimes I still can't make things work out, as in this case.

Mary

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Mary Yamato wrote:


(2) Skull Crossing is 10,000 years old. We're expected to believe that in 10,000 years no one has walked into that control chamber and done anything at all to the pit fiends?! We haven't had that scene yet, but there's no way my player is going to believe that.

I like your fix. Out of curiosity, what did you do about the catacombs of wrath? I struggled with the wooden platforms in the prison - I had to do some hand waving and say "uhh...it's magic...that's why they haven't rotted into dust..."

I also question how it is that 25 ogres have managed to do so much damage to something that has existed for 10,000 years. I know the magic that preserved it is failing, but it still seems unlikely the ogres could do much to it.

Mary Yamato wrote:
I like the scenery and atmosphere of this module a lot, and the derelict ship in the marsh is extremely cool, but it was a pain to run because I kept tripping over the logic issues.

I was really dissapointed with the ship in the marsh because it was so cool. My reaction was "uh, okay, that's random and cool for the sake of being random and cool, but it's still, well, too random." It's just out of left field and doesn't appear to have anything to do with anything in the rest of the campaign (unless I missed something). The idea deserved much more than to be a throw away reference in this adventure.

It's funny because I finally sat down and read the back half of this adventure yesterday and felt much less satisfied than the previous two issues. James has commented that it came in way over word count and had to be edited down. That's what it feels like - way too much of the adventure focuses on what is, in effect, a side quest/adventure hook to the ogre hillbillies, and as a result, the back end feels way too rushed and disjointed. The side quest with the ghost nymph is particularly thin.


Sebastian wrote:
I like your fix. Out of curiosity, what did you do about the catacombs of wrath? I struggled with the wooden platforms in the prison - I had to do some hand waving and say "uhh...it's magic...that's why they haven't rotted into dust..."

Not to threadjack- but yeah- I got busted on that one too. "uhh...it's magic"


Watcher! wrote:
Not to threadjack- but yeah- I got busted on that one too. "uhh...it's magic"

We specifically get told that Thassilonian ruins are preserved by magic, but we don't know the details. I don't have a problem with the wood being affected by it.


tbug wrote:
We specifically get told that Thassilonian ruins are preserved by magic, but we don't know the details. I don't have a problem with the wood being affected by it.

Well, I didn't apologize, but I got a funny look. :D

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

tbug wrote:
Watcher! wrote:
Not to threadjack- but yeah- I got busted on that one too. "uhh...it's magic"
We specifically get told that Thassilonian ruins are preserved by magic, but we don't know the details. I don't have a problem with the wood being affected by it.

Yeah, I know, but I still didn't like it and almost took out the entire prison section rather than have to punt to magic. Thankfully, with regards to the zombies, I had them be the smugglers that initially found the place, and didn't have to suffer any brain damage justifying their existence.


Thanks for your post M.Y. I will be taking your suggestions into account when I finally run Hook Mountain.

As for the wooden scaffolding, in my game, it wasn't there. I had the sinspawn just hide to the side of of the passage in and jump out behind the group. Or at least that's what they would have done had the party not made a complete B-line for the cathedral and gotten themselves all killed.


cthughua wrote:
Thanks for your post M.Y. I will be taking your suggestions into account when I finally run Hook Mountain.

Yes Mary, thanks much!


Sebastian wrote:
Yeah, I know, but I still didn't like it and almost took out the entire prison section rather than have to punt to magic. Thankfully, with regards to the zombies, I had them be the smugglers that initially found the place, and didn't have to suffer any brain damage justifying their existence.

I chalk it up to a failed SAN roll for the GM. They haven't noticed any difference.

Sovereign Court

Thasilonian Magic.

The background theory that I've been working on for Thassilonian magic preserving buildings is that the enchantments which preserved Karzoug placed a kind of time-lock on a whole bunch of unknown ancient magics. The preserving spells should only have lasted a thousand years, but instead...

When Karzoug was awakened all of these locks were opened and the overworked enchantments are leaking away. Only Karzoug and a few leiutenants (sp?) know what has happened, so they can confidently send minions to hack at dams and take chunks from the Old Light.

Ogres at Skull Crossing.

They spent weeks working on the eastern end of the dam (now damaged), only taking a few casualties from hungry trolls. Then the combination of a job well done and harrasment from Black Maga persuaded the ogres to get to work on the other side of the dam.

This was only a week ago, or just a few days. Getting past the trolls proved a massive headache, despite the advantage in numbers, and once the Ogres were on the western section they realised they were trapped (too few left to push past the trolls again, or take on the ettin). They're carrying on with the task despite not having the numbers to really damage the dam much more, and despite having lost a few more ogres to the trolls.

The last few are demoralised and waiting for a chance to slip away - but the trolls barely seem to sleep, and the Ettin only has one head snoozing at a time. The dim brutes are actually keeping their fingers crossed for a rescue and/or reinforcements when the job has clearly gone on too long.


Thanks!

I actually posted about the first problem the day the pdf was out, but I didn't really give much thought about it after that.

Logue's got great color in his scenarios, but dammit stuff just doesn't make sense sometimes. I did major editing on kobold king, but not this much.

Hey Logue! You reading this? You're messin with us, dude!

The Exchange

This is a great thread. Thanks Mary for asking these questions, as my players will undoubtedly hammer me with many of the same questions. Since Black Magga is supposed to be a schemer, it seems she should have a bigger role in what's going on at the dam. Maybe she can be of use in solving some of these issues?

I definitely echo the OP's call for general timelines for adventures. I try to put one together during preparation if possible just to give me a guideline for where things will go optimally. Something included in the adventure would be great, but I think Paizo will have to go to a smaller font to get that done.

minor threadjack continuation...

Sebastian wrote:
Yeah, I know, but I still didn't like it and almost took out the entire prison section rather than have to punt to magic. Thankfully, with regards to the zombies, I had them be the smugglers that initially found the place, and didn't have to suffer any brain damage justifying their existence.

I don't have the book handy, but I thought it was implied somewhere that Erylium's supply of zombies was supplemented over the years since the reopening of the catacombs by smugglers and vagrants who'd wandered into the caves.


I guess I'm lucky that my players usually don't notice that kind of stuff. I guess my players and I just assume that since it's just a game it's not going to perfectly emulate reality as we know it. And since it's just a game, there's no need to break our brains trying to make sense out of little mistakes and oversights that naturally come up. YMM, and in this case obviously does,V.


There were some discussions in the paizo chatroom a couple of nights ago regarding specifically the 'Graul' clan, the fact that they are reported as living half a mile off an important road between Turtleback Ferry and Fort Rannick, and that the area was (until recently) crawling with rangers who have favoured enemy (giant) and who could hardly have failed to be aware of the presence of the Grauls in the area.

Here are some of my thoughts on possible solutions, to some of the Graul-related points raised on this thread: (many thanks to Pygon who organised the chatroom discussion and to Cappadocia, Paolo, and anyone else who participated in it)

Spoiler:

1) The residents of Turtleback Ferry, and The Black Arrows have both been aware for years that the Grauls have been living in the area.

2) The Grauls however, posting the woods about their homestead with 'no trespassing' signs, man-traps, and patrolling regularly with dogs have succeeded in discouraging unwanted visiters.

3) The Residents of Turtleback Ferry and The Black Arrows may not like the Graul clan, but they're not going to go looking to stomp them out without provocation. (Admittedly, this and the previous suggestion are probably the weakest points on this list.) The Black Arrows' attention has been focussed towards the north, towards the Storval Plateau, and although their presence in the area is specifically to protect Turtleback Ferry, they have never had the manpower to try to force the Graul issue.

4) The Grauls have taken a great deal of care to familiarise themselves with the residents of Fort Rannick and Turtleback Ferry. They have tried to avoid 'snatching' anyone from either of these locations, and ESPECIALLY not anyone related to important figures. (Unless there are ogres practically at the gates of the Fort, if the mayor of Turtleback Ferry's nephew goes missing, he's going to want the rangers to search the area for him, no matter how overstretched they might be.)

5) Nevertheless it will have occasionally been noticed that expected visitors to the Fort/Turtleback Ferry, have never shown up, on some occasions. The Graul have been always lucky enough that these snatches never occured at times when a ranger patrol might have come upon evidence directly pointing to the Graul. It must be borne in mind that this is very much a 'frontier' area, with occasional dangerous beasts wandering in from the wilds, so occasional disappearances are not completely without alternate explanations.

6) Any reports to Magnimar mentioning these disappearances, or requesting additional assistance for the rangers will have gone to the Magnimar council. And who should have been on that council but Justice Ironbriars? Of the Skinsaw Men and Pathfinder #2. Justice Ironbriars is not likely to care about occasional travellers going missing; and if it's happening out on the frontier, so long as it's not anyone important, he can downplay it (or outright suppress the facts from the rest of the council if, as the senior Justice, Fort Rannick and communications therewith are assumed to land upon his desk). If suspicions are mentioned in reports from the Fort that the Graul might be responsible, but please could someone official with legal authority come out from Magnimar to investigate, because the Graul are refusing to accept visiters, then so much the better for the Graul- Justice Ironbriars could heartily sympathise with a group of ogrekin suspected of occasionaly snatching and murdering travellers.
No action is ever taken from the Magnimar end because Justice Ironbriars is either using his influence with the council to render debate ineffectual or even keeping the evidence from reaching the council entirely if he happens to be the official responsible for comunications with the Fort (and possibly making comments about this in his journal). He might even have sent Skinsaw delegations to invite one or two of the senior Graul ogrekin to become honourary associates of the Skinsaw Men.

7) Once Fort Rannick falls, all bets are off, as far as the Graul are concerned, and they have no problem picking up The Black Arrows survivors who come stumbling back onto their turf. They probably imagine at this point, that ogre domination of the area is now guaranteed, and that they are going to be able to do whatever they want, so long as they show respect to the ogres.

A natural outcome of this sequence of events is that the exposure of Justice Ironbriars misdeeds, in Pathfinder #2, will suddenly face the Magnimar council with the fact that Ironbriars has been covering up disappearances of travellers in the Turtleback Ferry region (or even possibly that the Skinsaw Men had associates out that way.) This offers a possible alternate adventure hook to the 'we haven't heard from Fort Rannick for a while' hook given at the beginning of Pathfinder #3: the PCs are asked to head out to Turtleback Ferry to look into the disappearances and see if there's anything more than just wild beast attacks, and given full authority to look into and deal with, on behalf of Magnimar and the region 'anything else in need of clearing up' that they should come across.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
hazel monday wrote:

I guess I'm lucky that my players usually don't notice that kind of stuff. I guess my players and I just assume that since it's just a game it's not going to perfectly emulate reality as we know it. And since it's just a game, there's no need to break our brains trying to make sense out of little mistakes and oversights that naturally come up. YMM, and in this case obviously does,V.

Mileage does indeed vary. My player likes to figure stuff out: more than winning a fight, he loves having the "Aha!" when things suddenly make sense (especially if this leads to a sudden solution to the PCs' problem). If thinking about the adventure makes it fall apart, that source of fun is gone.

He deduced, for example, Lucrezia's whole plan with regard to Paradise just by finding a drowned man with a Sihedron tattoo; and this meant that he knew what he was dealing with when the PCs met Lucrezia, and that fight went a lot better for the PCs than it otherwise would have. And he was tickled pink that his deductions were actually proved out by Lucrezia's notes.

The problem is, he also deduced a bunch of stuff based on the Grauls' and the ogres' behavior that is logical and compelling, but wrong according to the module, and what the module wants instead doesn't hold up logically so I can't just have evidence prove him wrong. I have to go in and try to fix it, and in retrospect I didn't do a very good job--I should have drawn up a detailed timeline and scoured every page for anything that might contradict it.

He also came up with an *incredible* explanation for the events of Burned Offerings, much more tied together than the explanation in the module. Unfortunately I hadn't read any of the later modules and I was afraid to accept his theory for fear it would be untenable later. If I run this series again I may go with it. (It involves a long-term conspiracy among the founders of Sand Point which fell apart recently, leading to the Unpleasantness and more recent events.)

I've had players who didn't care. This one is more fun to run for--he really appreciates the GMing detail, and Pathfinder is rich in glorious colorful detail--but he's demanding.

A timeline for #4 is clearly in order. If I do a good one I'll post it.

Mary


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:


I like your fix. Out of curiosity, what did you do about the catacombs of wrath? I struggled with the wooden platforms in the prison - I had to do some hand waving and say "uhh...it's magic...that's why they haven't rotted into dust..."

My player queried this, and I had them radiate transformation magic-- implying preservative spells.

I am, however, *very* seriously considering having the fall of Thassilon be only 1000 or 2000 years ago and not 10,000. It will put our campaign completely out of whack with any historical timelines Paizo puts out, which is unfortunate, but it would be much easier for me to believe. 10K years is a really long time. In our world, how many people who lived 10K years ago can you name? How many nations that existed then? How many ruins still standing? How many languages spoken then can people still speak now? It's just hard for me to grasp.

Sebastian wrote:


It's funny because I finally sat down and read the back half of this adventure yesterday and felt much less satisfied than the previous two issues. James has commented that it came in way over word count and had to be edited down. That's what it feels like - way too much of the adventure focuses on what is, in effect, a side quest/adventure hook to the ogre hillbillies, and as a result, the back end feels way too rushed and disjointed. The side quest with the ghost nymph is particularly thin.

It does feel rushed. The two passages on the map of Hook Mountain that say "There are a bunch more ogres down here, but never mind" bother me a lot. My player will by that point be on a genocidal ogre hunt, and there's no way the PCs will leave those passages alone, so I have to map and populate them myself. There's no count of how many ogres, either. Bother!

Myriana is not such a problem for me because I already had a context for her. (The PCs are going to ask her to raise Aldern Foxglove from the dead. *Long* story!) But yes, that's thin too. I've had to do some detail on members of her court, gnomish druids and rangers of the Sanos Forest whom the PCs might consult, etc.

I also wonder how ever the author thought that the PCs were going to man the fort. My player just looked at me like I was crazy when I raised the idea. There's no manpower available! And the "owning a fortress" section has nothing helpful whatsoever about the recruitment phase.

Mary


Mary, the points you have raised are all very compelling, and helpful for me, so I can have prepared answers on hand in case any of these situations come up-thanks! :)

Grand Lodge

Sebastian wrote:
Mary Yamato wrote:


It's funny because I finally sat down and read the back half of this adventure yesterday and felt much less satisfied than the previous two issues. James has commented that it came in way over word count and had to be edited down. That's what it feels like - way too much of the adventure focuses on what is, in effect, a side quest/adventure hook to the ogre hillbillies, and as a result, the back end feels way too rushed and disjointed. The side quest with the ghost nymph is particularly thin.

I started a thread soon after Hook Mountain came in, commenting that it felt like a side trek. Of course I got blasted for making such a remark. But yes, thank you, it DOES feel like a sidetrek. 1/6th of the campaign as a sidetrek seems a bit much.

In that thread I made I listed a whole bunch of problems, and James and a few others piped in what the goals were for each one. And while the goals of each encounter made sense, it still did not progress the overall story for me at all.

Now I am thinking that the real problem is the disconnect mentioned above. Timeline issues, logic problems, and static environments.


So you've never looked your player in the eye and said "sorry, the module writers didn't think of that"?

I suppose breaks "continuity" or whatever, but with all the Monty Python jokes and requests for pizza, it's not like you can maintain a 100% in game atmosphere for the entire session.

Sometimes you just have to be flexible. The PCs are the stars of the show, and they are the catalyst for things happening.

If you're having trouble reconstructing the timeframe of various previous events, isn't okay to admit to the players "I don't know, I'll have to figure it out later"?

The problem with constructing exact timelines is that you paint yourself into a corner. If the PCs get delayed or side-tracked somewhere early in the timeline, then they have no chance to save the town.

I don't care how much my players whine about logical flaws in the writing of the modules. They're still going to have to go through the encounters pretty much as written.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Michael F wrote:

So you've never looked your player in the eye and said "sorry, the module writers didn't think of that"?

I suppose breaks "continuity" or whatever, but with all the Monty Python jokes and requests for pizza, it's not like you can maintain a 100% in game atmosphere for the entire session.

Sometimes you just have to be flexible. The PCs are the stars of the show, and they are the catalyst for things happening.

Are you supposed to roll dice for two opposing forces while the PCs are in transit? And if one the two sides in a balance conflict gets lucky, do you throw a high CR at the PCs just because you think it's more realistic.

"So sorry, the Ogres got lucky, dodged Black Magga and killed all the trolls. There's 25 of them waiting for you in that room. TPK."

Look, if it's not your bag, it's not your bag, and yes we could punt and say "gosh guys, the module didn't think of that" but for some of us and our players that's not a satisfactory answer. I'm happy that it works for you and yours, and we are all aware that we could just futz along and say "it's only a game" and "magic did it" but, as Mary mentioned, many of us have players that like solving mysteries and figuring out the plot. They want things to make sense, and if the Gruals live right by civilization, they may jump to any number of conclusions, none of which are true. Rather than ruin their enjoyment by saying "Shucks, the explanation for why that is the way it is got cut" we want to have something to tell them.

So, if your players don't mind being led from encounter to encounter, not questioning the game and just killing things and having fun, I couldn't be happier for you. Mine are not like that and you're offering nothing of value to the discussion by telling me that we could play differently. We are aware of that fact and choose not to.

Similarly, I am also aware of the need to improvise, but I think a good DM anticipates what his players will do and will like and prepares appropriately. That's what this thread is about. So, with all due respect, I know how to play the game, I know what my players like, and nothing you said is relevant to my dilemna, or, I would wager, Mary's or Krome's.

Liberty's Edge

Mary Yamato wrote:

have had problems with Hook Mountain--it reads well, but seems to have logic issues when run.

(3) Why don't the four trolls kill the five ogres? I had a lot of fast talking to do here--my player's initial reaction was "This is totally unbelievable, there must be something else going on."

I don't have a good fix for this. I can't figure out what was supposed to have happened up there.

I think increasing the number of ogres is a solution. While most of them are now dead, it at least explains how they were able to make some significant progress. They may have lost additional numbers to depradation by trolls, but the trolls have learned a healthy respect for the ogres. To drive home the point that the ogres have 'learned' from their encounters, they can have a pile of burning logs next to the door to 'scare' the trolls from messing with them any further.

Mary Yamato wrote:


(4) When the flood comes, it gouges into Turtle Ferry but does not destroy the upriver road. I just can't describe this plausibly. In the narrow canyon the flood spares the road, but on the wide lake it is deep enough to flood the village? How does that happen? The villagers send someone *upriver* into the flood to ask for help--does that make sense?

I don't have a good fix for this. Luckily it doesn't seem likely to happen in my game. Pity to lose the flood, but it's really hard to get it to happen the way it's described.

The road can be higher than the river, following the river ravine. Since rivers usually run high at times, this does make sense. Most of the road is well above the level of the river, so is in little danger of flooding. The parts that are lowest are closest to Turtle Ferry. In addition, the flood isn't a permanent rise in the water level. It is basically a really large wave. If you're familiar with flash floods, it is kind of like that. A single section of the river is 'swollen' and it moves quickly downstream. When it breaks free from the confining walls it spreads out, but just like a hurricane's tidal surge, a foot or two of fast moving water is enough to destroy a lot of buildings and still cause major problems for buildings that are left standing.

Mary Yamato wrote:


(5) Black Magga in the lake is a pretty intractable problem to end the module on. Hm, we were heroes, we saved the village...oops, they're all doomed anyway, and it's a monster way beyond what we can handle. Too bad.

Personally, when I'm a player and when I'm a DM I don't assume that every fight can be won. Driving off the creature is a victory since it involves saving lives. If your players are interested in the hero role, this is a great place for them to shine. Certain death, and then they are saved because they stood confronting the beast. In fact, this is much more realistic than most encounters. I've heard tale that the creature in nature most likely to cause others to back off is the wasp. It can't kill many other creatures, but it isn't afraid of them, and many won't risk it. Basically, if you stand up to a monster, it very well might opt to find someone that won't stand up to it - just like any other bully.

Mary Yamato wrote:


I'm just going to leave Black Magga in the Storval Deeps. She'll be happier in deep water anyway.

I think your players will miss out.


Sebastian wrote:
So, if you're players don't mind being led from encounter to encounter, not questioning the game and just killing things and having fun, I couldn't be happier for you. Mine are not like that and you're offering nothing of value to the discussion by telling me that we could play differently. We are aware of that fact and choose not to. Similarly, I am aware of the need to improvise, but I think a good DM anticipates what his players will do and will like and prepares appropriately.

I'm sorry if you think my comments weren't helpful. I was trying to stay general because I don't have my books in front of me at the moment, and I left my memory stick with my PDFs at my friends house.

:-(

I do try to anticipate what the players will do as they try to solve the various problems presented to them. The more you prepare ahead of time the better.

But I've found in practice that you can't anticipate every question. Occasionally I get hit with something unanticpated during a game and just dither. Sometimes I'm forced to punt, then I "ret-con" it after the fact. Seems like half the time, the thing that bothers the players the most is something you didn't consider.

I am more likely to look for a way to explain how the encounter could work as written instead of adding too much to it.

For example, topography could explain the whole flood/road problem. If the road is mostly on the high ground, that could explain why it suffers less from the flood than the town, which is presumably at least partially in the "floodplain" since it's right where the stream enters the lake.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Michael F wrote:


I'm sorry if you think my comments weren't helpful. I was trying to stay general because I don't have my books in front of me at the moment, and I left my memory stick with my PDFs at my friends house.
:-(

Well then, I'm glad I didn't go with my original really pissed off response and just stuck to my somewhat pissed off response. :-)

I appreciate your point - you can't always anticipate what the players will do and sometimes you do have to say "ah crap, I don't have a good answer to that". It's just that we know that point, and now we are trying to figure out how to make the best with what we've got. And what you responded with in your last post is more in that vein; thank you.

Michael F wrote:


I am more likely to look for a way to explain how the encounter could work as written instead of adding too much to it.

I agree. One of the things I like about modules is the intellectual challenge of DMing them. It's like a random encounter - you roll the dice, see that you've got two displacer beasts on the plains, and have to come up with an explanation quickly. That's part of the fun of DMing to me, coming up with the explanation to a fixed set of facts.

The great thing about threads like this is that they are (mostly) about providing as much of that type of supplemental material that adds to instead of replaces the module's text. However, the best source for this material is usually the author, so a lot of me wonders if any of these issues was addressed in the cut text. I know that James mentioned in another thread that PF3 was originally going to be a build the base adventure, but that got cut due to the size of the document turned in by Nick. Unfortunately, what's left of that original concept doesn't really hold up all that well with what's actually in the module.


well, there are some valid points in MY's post, but mostly that is stuff that I would file under "I willl need to tweak and adapt this anyways"

The entire dam, and its wrecking was one of the first things that hit me, too, but I reasoned that actually - after some initial wondering - that basically the water rushing through has extended the initially slight damage (all the ogres could do), and it will worsen if left alone, eventually fulfilling the ogres' plan.

As for the troll vs. Ogre stand-off.... well, let it be said that even trolls and logs-for-brains ogres are not really keen on dying and both sides wait for a definite advantage, espcially as they might not know just how many guys are alive on the other team. And the ogre should not be too averse about eating their mangled comrades (or mangle another few....) to survive.
Actually, they might actually have done just that ?
Plus, neither of the two groups are the sharpest of knives and actually might not see a solution to their dilemma - and the ogres might just not know they are not going to reinforced by their kin at the Fort.

The pit-fiend reactor does actually scream for some more complex setup (which I did some doodles for already), with a turbine/machinery hall, some weird mechanisms controlling the damn etc. (something for the rogues to figure out and strutt their stuff) and giving the players a rap, starry-eyed look at the incomprehensibility of Thassalonian magic and "technology"

and yes, the Graul farm has to be deeper in the woods, if only for athmospheric reasons and isolation from Turtle Ferry, which as written, is almost with screaming distance. After all, the "fun" in redneck-horror plots is the sheer isolation and remoteness, adding to the sense of helplessness of the viti.. ahem, protagonists.

Never had a problem with the 10k years since Thassalonia - building might survive that time-span if build massively enough and in the proper environments (witness the temples and Pyramids of Egypt which are up to 4000+ years old and, I guess, will survive another few thousand years if not for human interference).

But - in all honesty - I always took the 10000 years ago timeline as so much bardic hyperbole. After all Golarion is a fairly primitive world and memory and hirstories will inevitably get bungled, misquoted and inflated for dramatic purposes. Five-thousand years works just fine with me - and let the bards have their moment of dramatic storytelling =)

As for players wondering if something does not quite add up..... that is the moment for the poker-face and the wicked smile (and some furious note-taking), grinning at the players and quibbing "oh, you noticed.... no worry there is a good reason for this !"
... of course I will have to come with that reason over the next week, but often enough, the players (any group I gamed with) didn't even chase down that inexplicable oddity.

Contributor

Hey All!

So sorry I haven't chimed in earlier. I've been totally SWAMPED with life things and work things lately. I'll try to post some good thoughts on these concerns as soon as I get the chance. Deadlines have been hammering me lately, and a slew of birthdays and visitations by out of town good friends has commanded my attention. I'll get on this as soon as I crank out a couple of things that are in DIRE NEED of being cranked out.

More soon!


Mary Yamato wrote:
(2) Skull Crossing is 10,000 years old. We're expected to believe that in 10,000 years no one has walked into that control chamber and done anything at all to the pit fiends?! We haven't had that scene yet, but there's no way my player is going to believe that.

Early on in those 10,000 years, the Pit fiends would have been a lot tougher before all the level draining messed them up. They have a CR of 20, so many folks who got as far as that room might run away as soon as they saw them. Even after they started losing levels, most folks encountering them probably wouldn't be able to tell they were weakened.

I think it is reasonable to assume there were often some "mid-level" creatures lairing in the area, and that they keep out the riff-raff (ancient PCs?). But the mid-level creatures have no reason to mess with the pit fiends.

If anyone wanted to mess with them, they would have to be fairly high level. I'm not sure if playing with dam controls would let you stack multiple negative levels on them or not. If you assume not, then you don't have to worry about a low level character draining them down to dust.

And even if some ancient PC-types encounterd the pit fiends, would they automatically try to destroy them? If they destroy the trapped demons, the dam is no longer powered, which puts everyone downstream at risk. Just because players are amazingly unlikely to leave things alone, that doesn't mean that some ancient discoverer wouldn't leave well enough alone.

So in summary:

1. The pit fiends might be hard to find with other critters in the way.
2. Most folks don't mess with pit fiends, even when they find them.
3. Even competent pit fiend messers might not want to break the dam.
4. And after the cataclysm 10,000 years ago, the area would have been somewhat depopulated so not many dam explorers would show up for the first few thousand years? maybe?


Nicolas Logue wrote:

Hey All!

So sorry I haven't chimed in earlier. I've been totally SWAMPED with life things and work things lately. I'll try to post some good thoughts on these concerns as soon as I get the chance. Deadlines have been hammering me lately, and a slew of birthdays and visitations by out of town good friends has commanded my attention. I'll get on this as soon as I crank out a couple of things that are in DIRE NEED of being cranked out.

More soon!

Oh man, you guys are pulling poor Mr. Logue away from his real life (in meatspace) to answer cyber-questions about ogres vs. trolls, floods and Black Magga's motivations.

For Shame! If he misses someone's birthday it's on your head ;^)

Not that I won't be waiting to see what he says.


Well I have to agree with most of the points being raised here. I liked the first three acts of this adventure by and large. The Hill Billy Ogres are pretty cool. Taking the Fort is very interesting and the dam gets points for being thematically cool. An ancient magical dam is a great place for adventure and appeals to the pulp gamer in me.

I have to agree that the last two sections just did not do it for me. We should be building to a climax here not to fading off to a whimper.

In terms of the Fort, well the adventure does not actually require them keeping it. It does somewhat require (or at least its more interesting if they do) them to hold it for a period of time. In fact that might be the most bang for your buck role playing wise. The most interesting part of the holding the fort is going to be recruiting manpower and getting it into some kind of fighting trim. Once this aspect is dealt with the opportunity for interesting events at the fort diminish. So what one really wants to do is hook the PCs into holding onto the fort for at least some period of time.

One might have the Lord Mayor of Magimar request that the PCs hold onto the area until help can be sent. This can be reinforced by local mayors in the area. I'd promise the PCs payment for their trouble shooting role from the Lord Mayor of Magimar but have the money show up when the relief finally arrives. This leaves the PCs to fall back on their own resources in getting manpower etc. for the fort. Some side adventures for recruiting drives in the nearby towns might be interesting. Emptying the local jails for recruits could be entertaining etc.

Finally I'd wrap the whole thing off by skipping out on the last two adventure sections. I'd rewrite it so that the Storm Giant does not stand around in their base - no he gathers his warriors and goes for the Fort with the PCs in it. This way we can play out the PCs preparations and see how well they work. It makes the whole keep ownership aspect actually relevant for the adventure. Its something of a reverse dungeon which is interesting for a change of pace. The only real problem is that its essentially a wargame. Presuming the PCs get 15-25 recruits there are a lot of people supporting the PCs.

You'd need to do a fair bit of work to map out the whole fort and you'd probably have to arrange a setup so that this could be stored because a fight of this size will take a couple of sessions.


Wow, still DMing #2, and havent even cracked hook mountain open yet. Thanks for the heads up.

The 10,000 years thing really annoys me as well. Our very first session everybody was introducing their characters when it was learned that 4/5 of the party took Thassilonian as a language. The one guy who asked me about it in advance I told that Thassilonian was such an old language that if you knew it, it was sort of like knowing Egyptian Hieroglyphs, you could slowly and painfully translate it and take it on faith that you are maybe close to being slightly accurate, but there is no speaking it. There is nobody around who would even begin to know the sounds of the alphabet.

Of course when everyone was at the table they had a fit because the players guide said that scholars often speak the language.

After a lengthy debate I said "Ok, makes no logical sense, but whatever, you all speak Thassilonian"

How in the world is a language from a 10,000 year gone empire still able to be read, let alone spoken? The Mayans were around less than 2,000 years ago and nobody can really agree on their written language.

I guess once again, magic has to be the answer, maybe there is some 10,000 year old lich that is teaching Thassiolnian in exchange for rare and powerful wizbangs or something. Or maybe one can somehow cook up a way to use comprehend languages to actually learn a language instead of using it as a translating device.


The 10,000 year thing doesn't bother me at all. Although when one of my players asked about taking Thassilonian, I said no, and he let it go.

10,000 years seems like a long time in human terms. But in a world where the Stone Giants live a thousand years and Dragons probably live longer, you're talking about a dozen or fewer of their generations.

Never mind that most of the gods that were around then are still around now.

So given all that and magic, 10,000 years doesn't blow my suspension of disbelief.

Given everything else that's going on around you, why question the amount of rot on a 10,000 year old piece of wood? That's like opening Pandora's Box! There are so many other flagrant abuses of reality in a fantasy gaming system at every level. When I'm playing, I don't try too hard to peel back the onion, or the DM might question some of the crazy reality-busting shit my 12th level wizard can do.

Some sci-fi writers try to stay within our current understanding of physics and write about starships traveling years between stars. But the majority say "Screw that! Warp drives! Aetheric Rudders! Hyperspace! Stargates! Wooo!"

I guess what happens is that when your in-game persona sees a Dragon, you think "Well, that's some funky shit you don't see in real life" and you're able to suspend disbelief. But if you see a piece of wood, you expect it to act like a frikin' piece of wood, until you know for sure it's a mimic. ;^)

It's the whole, "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" thing.

I say, bring on the Vorpal Duck.


It makes the fantasy all the more fun and "believable" if the rest of the world works "normally" and coherently - insects buzz, things rot and crumble and dragons need to be magical to actually make take-off without a steam-catapult.

But in all honesty, 10000 years ago would be right during the last Ice Age in "meatspace" (wonderful term btw !), and very little artificial or biological from that period actually survives into our age - unless it gets permafrosted like the famous mammoths in Siberia.

And actually, I have never heard players questioning a disbelievable situation if it was to their (ingame) advantage to do so....


Brian Van Wyk wrote:


How in the world is a language from a 10,000 year gone empire still able to be read, let alone spoken? The Mayans were around less than 2,000 years ago and nobody can really agree on their written language.

In D&D, especially with the inclusion of magic, there are always reasons. Let's not even look at magic, let's look at the fact that there are ghosts, vampires, liches, assorted intelligent undead, gods, golems, and other sentient beings that were actually around during The Thassilonian period and can SPEAK. Of course things are different in Golarion - it's FANTASY.

Sovereign Court

Sumer - Civilisation 6,000 years ago.

Egypt - Ruins too 5,000 years ago.

Mycenae, Minoan Crete - Ruined forts 4,000 years ago.

Convert from years to generations.

Work out amount of years for that many generations of elves (a PC race).

Ta Da! Way more than 10,000 years.


Sebastian wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did you do about the catacombs of wrath? I struggled with the wooden platforms in the prison - I had to do some hand waving and say "uhh...it's magic...that's why they haven't rotted into dust..."

Hehe, next time a PC asks a question like this try asking them to make a Craft (Alchemy) roll and after they shout their answer at you, just shrug and smile.

Of course this only works until someone makes an alchemist character for your game. Then I'd suggest Knowledge (The Planes) rolls :)


For taking over Fort Rannick, I attributed the lack of details to that this was entirely optional.

As for "staffing" the Fort, I just redistributed some of the population from Turtleback Ferry and the remaining 2 survivors. Kyra also took the Leadership feat. After about a few minutes of accounting, the party estimated they could handle the steps needed to staff and reconstruct it.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


Finally I'd wrap the whole thing off by skipping out on the last two adventure sections. I'd rewrite it so that the Storm Giant does not stand around in their base - no he gathers his warriors and goes for the Fort with the PCs in it. This way we can play out the PCs preparations and see how well they work. It makes the whole keep ownership aspect actually relevant for the...

I LOVE THIS IDEA....I am totally going to do this...will be some work, but definitely worth it-will post what work I do, thx! :)


Ebolav wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


Finally I'd wrap the whole thing off by skipping out on the last two adventure sections. I'd rewrite it so that the Storm Giant does not stand around in their base - no he gathers his warriors and goes for the Fort with the PCs in it. This way we can play out the PCs preparations and see how well they work. It makes the whole keep ownership aspect actually relevant for the...

I LOVE THIS IDEA....I am totally going to do this...will be some work, but definitely worth it-will post what work I do, thx! :)

One catch is that the caves do have some scenery that helps with furthering the campaign. I don't really think it makes exciting adventure considering that 'move through location, kill monsters, collect treasure' is what they have been doing for this entire adventure and earlier parts have done this better. However the players need the clues found in these caves and deserve the treasure.

Personally I'd rewrite the last part of the adventure so that the Stone Giant takes the Ogres and the Hags for an attack on the fort.

Play this out with the Ogres acting as the foot troops (but powerful ones of course). The Hags and the Necromancer Stone Giant provide spell cover for the attackers. While the Stone Giant body guard backs up the Necromantic Stone Giant. I'd probably have it so that the Hags flee, never to be seen again should they take more then 1/2 their hps in damage or the Necromancer Stone Giant is killed. The Body Guard and Necromancer Stone Giant fight to the death and the Ogres more or less fight to the death unless the Hags and the Necromancer Stone Giant are killed or driven off at which point they loose heart and flee.

So the fight should ultimately come down to the PCs or their followers killing the Necromancer Stone Giant while defending their keep. Thats the climax of the adventure. Once they do that cut to the epilogue where they PCs and their followers have chased the remnants of the Ogres back to the caves high up on hook mountain.

The remaining Ogres won't stop to give battle abandoning the caves when the PCs forces approach. Then condense the caves down to a essentially one encounter, not a fight - this is the wrap up for the climax so the PCs don't have to actually explore the caves in game mechanic terms. All the fights that might occur here are written out of the adventure. Its presumed that the PCs explore the caves and here are the interesting things they found while doing that. Que loads of loot and interesting things that one can find in the caves.


I don't see what's wrong with the wood being there.

After all, we're talking about powerful magical empires, here. I image during the time, their lumber industry probably used solid heartwoods of naturally resistant types of lumbers, and then terated it, mundanely and magically, before actually using it.

I'm sure teh Runeloirds expected their buildings to last forever. And then we've got a creature in there who sees it as her domain, and can get access to spells like mending and make whole, and actually look after the wood to keep rot from spreading.

It's not like it was a temporary building that was abandoned for all those years. It was designed and built to be a laboratory, to be solid and last, and then there actually is someone left in there who probably had looking after things like that as a menial chore.

Plus, it's been open to the outside world for about five years, and since Erylium sees it as her personal kingdom, she'd probably be quick to have some basic repairs done.

It's not that far out an idea.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
So the fight should ultimately come down to the PCs or their followers killing the Necromancer Stone Giant while defending their keep. Thats the climax of the adventure. Once they do that cut to the epilogue where they PCs and their followers have chased the remnants of the Ogres back to the caves...

Well then, you did most of the work for me! :P We are just starting # 2, so it would be a little while...Thanks!!!!


Huzzaher wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with the wood being there.

See, that's the spirit! I totally agree with Huzzaher on this. He makes a number of good points about how you can explain the wood.

Honestly, if any of my players raises a question about the wood, I will tell them to shut up and tell me what they do about the zombies. The wooden fixtures in the caverns are just "set dressing" and aren't that important to the plot.

I know that this won't work in all groups, because many DMs don't want to "break character" and blow off a legitimate concern from a player. But I've been playing D&D with the same guys for nearly 30 years. We can take the occasional short cut.

Huzzaher shows that it's not that hard to explain away most of these issues if you come at it with an open mind.


Michael F wrote:
Huzzaher shows that it's not that hard to explain away most of these issues if you come at it with an open mind.

It was a pretty fair answer I must admit. Makes me feel better, though- I maintain I never apologized to the players. "It's magic."


I don't like the idea of moving the Graul's farm farther away. Part of the shock value is how close they are to the town, which this ruins. I think a lot of the problem is that people think they're too close to the town, which, really, they aren't. Go back and look at your maps. Yes, they're fairly close to the town, but their relatively close distance has two very important factors:

1: They're across the river. Because of how the terrain seems to be set up, this would but them across a bridge pretty high over a river.

2: They're in the Kreegwoods. The description for the Kreegwoods makes it abundantly clear that people KNOW ogrekkin roam those woods. However, the game clearly says they keep to themselves. The Graul are described as remaining indoors most of the time, except for two, one of which doesn't go farther then his cornfields. Yes, the Grauls torture and kill any woodsmen or trappers who wander too close, but few chance the Kreegwoods, because entering those boundaries opens you to attacks from ogrekin.

Since they keep to boundaries, they're not as big a threat as the ogres who actively raid the town.

Part of the Graul's horror is how close they are. Personally, I'd play up the rangers anger at letting the Graul get so close to civilization. They are noted as being the bravest family, for living so close. It's pretty clear that because they keep to boundaries they've been overlooked, which allowed them to slide in and cut off the Black Arrows' escape route, much to their horror, which in turn adds to the ranger's plight. I'd probably have the townsfolk be sure to warn the PCs to stay to the road and avoid the woods, because it is crawling with ogrekin, although they'd probably dismiss them as staying deeper in, but that it's best to stay on the safe side becaus e"you never know when you'll run into one roaming about," which they'll look back on as foreshadowing when the fight with Rukus starts, slowly turning to horror when they realize how close the farm is.

Grand Lodge

I just realized another thing that sort of not quite bothered me- more along the lines of a great opportunity missed.

The Hook Mountain area is rather remote and isolated from Magnimar. It requires several days to journey there. Now, my first reaction was, why so far away? Then I thought, well it serves the purpose of getting the adventurers to adventure. Get out in the wild and explore the great unknown lands. I do not have the book in front of me, but I think it hints at that idea. Yet there is no actual exploration. There is nothing between Magnimar and Hook Mountain. My players hate it when there is a long journey and it consists of "ok, you arrive at your destination." That kind of adventuring is boring.

I have not yet run this module, but when I do, I plan on creating at least three encounters and rolling for at least 3-4 random encounters. It is such a large area to cover with nothing happening.

To me, this is where the side treks should have been placed, rather than making the destination a side trek. Perhaps, the Gruals would have been better if they lived between the road and the Yondabakari River between Magnimar and Wartle (had to dig out book for names). this serves to show how savage the wilderness can be, and assures that the PCs can encounter the Gruals regardless of method used to travel.

After they recover at Wartle and meet some folks there, they can continue their journey. They have two choices now, by river or by land (so they are not being railroaded). The land route looks to take them through the Sanos Forest. Perfect opportunity for them to encounter a tribe of centaurs, dedicated to protecting their forest from the incursions of man, or a small tribe of wild elves. Should they go by river they arrive at Whsitledown, the perfect location for Black Magga to appear. As the PCs are making their final approach to Hook Mountain, they encounter a refugee from the fort. The Fort plays out almost as written.

This sequence of play makes more sense to me. Two major parts of the story, that are essentially side treks, actually become side treks with the added benefit of showcasing the wilderness and bringing interesting play where none currently exists. A new town is introduced briefly for interaction. Then the meat of the story, the Fort, can be the major element of the adventure.

This requires some major rewriting I know. But I think, personally, I will find this more satisfactory.

Silver Crusade

i've just run my players through part one of the adventure and they had a blast because of something that, as an old school gamer from the first edition days, i've always been a fan of... the random encounter.

take this for instance...

my players decide to take the river route, which would get them there in about a week. as they take this route, i rolled a d6 to see if anything "interesting" happens along the way (with a result of 1, or in the case of my d6 the "chaos" symbol, meaning that something happened). when such a result came up, i used the wandering monster table provided and got 1d4 alligators (i rolled 3). now i've always stated to my players that sometimes an encounter is just simply that...an encounter, with the point being that you don't always have to fight what you come across. and that was what i was planning on this to be: a non-combat encounter that was meant to be color for the journey.

and it would have been had not one of the gators bumped the hull of the river barge. so what was going to be an opportunity to expound on the wildlife on the river (via the barge captain) became a combat exercise that taught them the dangers of underwater combat. this became especially true when their combat attracted the attention of a young black dragon.

as a result of this, Malik (who managed to kill all three gators pretty much on his own) has become a local celebrity and is known by the imposing name "Gator-bait" and the dragon corpse they used to get some dragoncraft items (the gnomes were quite willing to take their money). sure it slowed them down from what they were supposed to do, but the players had fun. and to me, that's what is most important.

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