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Legendary Hybrids: Kinetic Shinobi (PFRPG)

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Death Stalks the Shadows!

Legendary Hybrids: Kinetic Shinobi is the latest volume in our series of class-focused player supplements, introducing a new series of hybrid classes like those in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide that blend the core elements of two different base classes into a unique synergy all their own. The Kinetic Shinobi brings you a 20-level hybrid class that combines the mastery of mystic and martial arts, bringing together the energy-channeling kineticist and the shadow-stepping ninja. Wielding power and might with the power of the mind, from base matter of the elements to the unknowable depths of the void, the kinetic shinobi is an agile and athletic adversary, flitting and fighting from every direction with hand and blade while gathering in her power to unleash upon every enemy, then disappearing into the shadows leaving silent destruction in her wake. Grab this 34-page hybrid class supplement and Make Your Game Legendary!

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Float like a Butterfly, Sting like Kyuubi - Or, What Ninja Should Have Been

5/5 —

Have you ever looked at the Ninja alternate class in your trusty old copy of Ultimate Combat and thought, "Boy, you sure are an awkward blob of mechanics hung together by dental floss and strung over a weaker version of the already underwhelming Core Rulebook Rogue's chassis?" Ever wondered how you could create a character that evokes the stealth, combat power, and psycho-spiritual pseudo-magic of Ninja Gaiden's Hayabusa Ryu, Darker than Black's Hei, X-Men's Psylocke, or Naruto's... well, everyone? Look no further! You've found your class.

The first thing you need to know about the Kinetic Shinobi is that it's built on a very clever premise. The authors marry the bare bones of the Kineticist – elemental focus and a version of kinetic blast that comes coupled with a weapon creator form infusion somewhat reminiscent of the Occult Adventures Elemental Annihilator's Devastating Infusion at first level, with a small array of other rethemed Kineticist features that come with deeper levels – to the good ideas behind the flawed execution of the UC Ninja – a version of the ki pool that feels impactful, sneak attack, and access to ninja tricks – while leaving behind the flaws of both parents: the much-maligned burn resource and the Ninja's narrow and overall weak focus. This gives the Kinetic Shinobi a ton of flavor right out of the gate, unburdened by overly-restrictive baked-in mechanics. The one “downside” (and I use that term loosely, here) to the approach taken with this core design is that the Kinetic Shinobi does, more or less, render the Ninja obsolete. Under normal circumstances, I would count that as a harsh penalty against a hybrid class. In this case, however, the Ninja was arguably a worse version of the CRB Rogue it's based off already, and Paizo put the final nail in its coffin long ago with the Pathfinder Unchained Rogue. I can't fault this book for burying a dead horse.

The second, and arguably most important aspect of the Kinetic Shinobi to be aware of, is that the skeleton I've described above is fleshed out with an enormous variety of customization, offering a unique experience for every character. The straight use of the Kineticist's elemental focus makes the Kinetic Shinobi fully compatible with all (7, as of this writing) Paizo Kineticist elements, any further options added in the future, and the plethora available in other third party books, such as the excellent Kineticists of Porphyra series also by this team of authors. The real value of both the class and the book, though, is the Shinobi Talents feature, gained at every odd level starting at 1. There are some 50-odd of these, ranging the gamut from alternate weapon forms (known as Hadou techniques), poison use, skill tricks, special defenses, and a few very anime-inspired one-offs (Bunshin Rush and Dragonbreath will remind you of a certain pair of ninja from a village hidden in leaves). Included are even a handful of options that facilitate both manufactured weapon and unarmed strike builds (although they are in large part outshone by the archetypes that focus on those styles). Also accessible through Shinobi Talents are the Kineticist's basic and composite blasts, substance infusions, and utility wild talents, and the aforementioned Ninja Tricks, including Master Tricks (and, by proxy, Rogue Talents and Advanced Rogue Talents). All accounted for, I would be surprised if there were less than 200 options available.

If that doesn't sound like enough material to you, there are also a whopping 11 archetypes included with the Kinetic Shinobi, which include a couple of slgihtly-more-Ninja variants, a couple slightly-more-Kineticist variants, and a series of gish archetypes that hybridize in a third class, including: gunslinger, fighter, monk, vigilante, swashbuckler, bloodrager, and magus. Each is, of course, provided with a twist that makes them more than a simple combo deal. Alternate Favored Class Bonuses for every race in the Advanced Race Guide and a handful class-specific Feats round out the player material, and a sample NPC (featured in the cover art) is provided as the finishing touch on the book.

I have only two gripes with this book; both are small. The first is that, as written, there is an issue of clarity in the function of the advanced Hadou techniques, which are central to the class's combat mechanics from very early on. I was able to suss out the correct Rules As Intended in every case after a single reading of the class, but there's enough ambiguity to the wording that an inexperienced player might find themselves lost (or a malicious player might find themselves tempted to exploit the Rules As Written). I can't hold this fault too strongly against the book, but it is a bit jarring, if only due to the fact that the rules text of the rest of the material (which far, far outnumbers the Hadou techniques) is very meticulous. The second is that the core class offers no way to attain an enhancement bonus or weapon properties on its attacks, which is a problematic oversight for an iterative attack focused class – solved by allowing an amulet of mighty fists to affect the class's form infusions. That said, the authors were very quick to answer all the questions I had about clarity (too verbose to repeat here), and offered easy solutions to the few problems I noted, so I would strongly recommend any would-be player or GM of a Kinetic Shinobi give a brief read over N. Jolly's and Onyx Tanuki's clarifications on the Product Discussion page unless or until the text is updated following the date of this review (3/10/17).

Overall, I give the Kinetic Shinobi 4.5/5 Stars (rounded up for this platform), for excellent flavor that fills a badly needed niche, creative and fun mechanical design, and a body of work that is high in both quantity and quality, having extraordinarily few issues for a fully featured class.

An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5 —

The second of Legendary Games' hybrid classes clocks in at 34 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page inside of front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page SRD, 1 page ToC, 2 pages of introduction, 2 pages of advertisement, 1 page inside of back cover, 1 page back cover, leaving us with 23 pages of content, so let's take a look!

The kinetic shinobi, if the name was no clear indication, is a hybrid class of ninja and kineticist, which receives, chassis-wise d8 HD, 6 + Int-mod skills per level, proficiency with simple weapons plus kama, katana, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham and wakizashi as well as light armor. The class receives 3/4 BAB-progression, good Ref- and Will-saves and 2nd level nets sneak attack, which continues to progress by +1d6 every 3 levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +7d6.

The class begins play with elemental focus and kinetic blast with kineticist levels equal to kinetic shinobi levels, but must either add the physical jutsu or elemental jutsu form infusion to any kinetic blast she manifests. A kinetic shinobi's kineticist tricks are governed by Charisma instead of Constitution- Both of these form infusions, just fyi, do not have a burn cost.

Unfortunately, the physical jutsu infusion does have a pretty nasty glitch: It is used as part of any attack action, creating a weapon that deals "1d4 + Cha" damage, regardless of level. It can be used with Vital Strike, Spring Attack etc....but for one, I am pretty sure this should be Charisma modifier: RAW, this adds the Charisma score to damage, which is...too much. The elemental version behaves analogue to this, but does not sport the problematic "+Cha" addition and targets touch attack instead.

2nd level provides a ki-pool equal to 1/2 class level + Cha-mod. This ki may be spent to enhance physical jutsu attacks by +1 or the damage of elemental jutsu by +2. These bonuses increase by +1 and +2, respectively, at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter. Additionally, an expenditure of one ki can net them a whopping +20 to Acrobatics for one round, or a +4 to the skills associated with the elemental focus. Beyond these basic uses of ki, the kinetic shinobi also learns so-called Hadou techniques at 2nd level, which remain available for as long as the shinobi has at least 1 point of ki left in her pool. These hadou techniques basically are what lets you generate unique effects with the jutsus. It is here, in the technique that makes the jutsu behave as a katana, that the aforementioned confusion regarding "+Cha" is resolved btw. - here, the wording is correct and notes that it's the Charisma modifier that is added to the damage-output, which is for 2-handed weapons btw. increased to 1d8. Dual wielding weapons made from jutsu and thrown weaponry are included here as well, just fyi.

Starting at 3rd level, kinetic shinobi become harder to track and better at Disguising and Stealth, emphasizing the ninja-component with scaling bonuses that increase every 3 levels thereafter. 4th level provides gather power, which, considering that the kinetic shinobi pays ki instead of burn, obviously pertains ki expenditure, though gathering power does require concentration -on a failed check, you have a cooldown there. 4th level and every 8 levels thereafter net a substance infusion, with 6th level and every 4 thereafter allowing for the switching of such an infusion. 4th level decreases the ki cost of their combined substance infusions by 1, with further reductions unlocking at 10th and 16th level. Since the burn-to-ki-conversion is stated in another ability, I am okay with the class calling this burn-cost reduction. 6th level provides the option to expend +1 ki to double the duration of effects, with 10th level allowing them to spend 2 points to maximize their blasts. 14th level allows for the expenditure of 3 points for a required second save and 18th level lets the shinobi expend 4 points to have the blast ignore 10 DR or resistance and SR and mitigate energy immunity to resistance 20: Big kudos here: The immunity-to-resistance-transition could have resulted in confusion in the hands of less careful authors: Kudos for the clarifying example!! 7th level nets evasion and, as a capstone, the metajutsu abilities that allow for the expenditure of ki to add metamagic-y benefits is decreased by 1. They may also regain 2 ki when sneak attacking a creature with at least half their HD: Kitten-proof capstone. Nice!

Now, I have consciously not commented so far on the massive array of shinobi talents included here: They represent the biggest unique player agenda component here. The first of these is gained at 1st level, with every 2 levels thereafter providing an additional such talent. These talents provide a blend of active benefits and talents that behave like hadou techniques and include the classic options you'd expect: From a variant smoke bomb to the option to provide one poison's benefits to his jutsu-formed two weapons to standard action only increased damage blasts, which can be further modified to act as lines or cones. Increased sneak range for sniping, synergy of Spring Attack or charges with the aforementioned standard action damage-increase...there's a lot here. Higher levels also allow for composite blast jutsu weapons, aligned strikes, applying infusions to full attacks, synergy between ki strike (which can be gained via another talent) and kinetic blast, advanced hadou techniques for dual thrown weapons or splash weaponry. Very cool: Kinetic shadow can add a miss chance to the shinobi in the aftermath of attacks and there even is one that allows for the decrease of sneak attack in favor of a reduced burn cost. Thankfully, the notorious flurry of stars-option has been locked behind an appropriate level, showing that the designers have done their math here. Highest level shinobis may even learn supercharge thus. Have I mentioned the option to gain detect thoughts? In case you haven't noticed by now: Combined with Legendary Kineticist, this pdf is pretty much "Psylocke the Class" - or all those elemental ninja dudes and dudettes. As a whole, the massive selection of shinobi talents covers a pretty amazing array of options.

This is not, however, where the pdf stops: Instead we get a TON of archetypes: 11 to be more precise. Arsenal snipers modify their proficiency-list to gain access to crossbows and firearms and indeed, that's what they can create: The rules-language provided for the ability is beautiful in its complexity, addressing several potential stumbling stones and eliminating multiple game-breaker-level issues from the get-go. Beyond increased accuracy, the class also receives an array of unique shinobi talents that include interaction with automatic fire, several investigator talents and replaces sneak attack with studied combat and Ranged combat at 3rd level, with further levels providing range increases. Lethal...but for once not a sniper class that overshoots (get it?? I'll punch myself later for that...) the line.

The second one would be the Brutal Assassin, who loses a bit of versatility in favor of Strength as governing attribute and increased sneak damage output whenever he expends ki, with fighter-level bonus combat feats and more damage-focused tricks - which remain within the proper levels...so kudos! The archetype does lose much of the shinobi's stealth and versatility for these, though. Thirdly, the burglar is a quick one: 3rd level safe house instead of a shinobi talent, HiPS instead of evasion. Solid.

The elemental shinobi replaces 12th level's ninjutsu training and evasion with access to elemental defense , powered by ki, at 2nd level. Their ki expenditure per round is capped, though, and their pool is reduced to 3 + Cha-mod to retain balance and they may also not perform the +20 Acrobatics tricks via ki, though 6th level allows them to take Charisma damage to increase the ki pool for a limited number of times per day. Weird layout glitch, btw.: Starting at 3rd level's elemental overflow, the whole text that follows, until the second sentence of the next archetype, seems to be bolder than it should be. The ability is btw. pretty impressive, providing bonuses to atk with blasts equal to the ki points expended since the last rest, and the ability even knows thresholds for further bonuses, which makes for a very cool experience of resource-management I enjoy immensely: On the one hand, you want to expend those points, on the other, you don't this retains a fluidity of options and generates this cool and pretty cinematic feeling. Very, very cool. I am so going to see what I can do with this engine!!

Fading Shadows gets a delayed sneak attack progression and are masters of camouflage, the silent killers and ghost-like infiltrators, with Conceal Spell and vanishing trick. A relatively simple one, but I like it. The hand of the kami would be, surprise, the archetype that makes the class behave like a kinetic unchained monk instead of a kinetic ninja - with quinggong monk ki powers, faster movement, flurry, the like. The Hi-Den Noble would be a similar hybrid-y archetype, but one that would basically represent a vigilante-ish shinobi that makes for a great face of the party, with knowledge and social skills and hidden strikes et al. - Really like this one, as it also has some seriously nice flavor written into the abilities. The metaformer replaces the metamagic-like tricks gained at 6th level and thereafter with extended access to form infusions - basically, this is an engine tweak, designed specifically to allow for kineticist-style meta-magic as opposed to the feat-based metamagic of the base class, making it a useful and cool addition.

Following this sequence, the next one would be the needler, whose ki pool behaves pretty much like a variant panache. Yep, this would be the swashbuckler-multiclass. And before you ask: The reason why I'm not screaming fire and brimstone right now regarding replenishing ki is the restriction that eliminates the elemental jutsu from the equation. The piercing focus can slightly be expanded upon with shinobi talents, one of which allows for the addition of usually bludgeoning-only kinetic blasts that may now inflict piercing or slashing damage. This archetype, while solid on its own, delimits a limited resource, so utmost care should be taken by GMs allowing the archetype to multiclass. The shadow stepper is locked into void and gains arcane spellcasting with slots equal to the bloodrager, but draw them from wizard/sorc and psychic spell-lists, though they are limited in what spells they can learn. The archetype pays for the flexibility that offers with a lot shinobi talents and regular stealth. Additionally, they may cast spells by expending ki and spell slots, drawing from a thematically nice list. The final archetype would be the shikon, whose spell-list and equivalent levels are treated as either bard, hunter, inquisitor, magus, mesmerist, spiritualist or warpriest, chosen at 1st level, rendering them pretty much a catch-all blend of the kinetic shinobi with the black blade of the bladebound magus (they gain a variant of the black blade), making this a pretty significant and interesting departure from the base class. Kudos!

Big, big plus: We get a TON of favored class options: Core races, featured races, uncommon races, and they actually tie in thematically with the respective races: Orcs gain damage upgrades for empowered weapons, dhampirs better negative blasts...nice. The pdf also features 4 feats: Beyond the Extra Shinobi Talent and Favored Shinobi Talent (decrease ki-cost of that talent) to using Cha for one Dex-based class skill to Overflowing Ki, which treats you as always having at least 1 ki and allows for 1 hour of meditation to regain ki...which can be an issue in REALLY grim, low-powered games. In most standard rounds, its meditation duration is long enough to make me consider it to be okay.

The pdf closes with the lady depicted on the cover, Valerie Jette, a level 9 half-elven kinetic shinobi whose colorful history includes a healthy infusion of drow blood as part of being resurrected. Sounds intriguing? Yes, it does! She does come with a boon, just fyi!

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting is very good, though not perfect. Layout adheres to Legendary Games' two-column full-color standard and the pdf's artwork has been employed in other LG-books for the most part, though a couple of nice ones are included that I have not seen before. The pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience.

N. Jolly, with additional design by Blake Morton and OnyxTanuki, delivers once again in this hybrid class. Now, what do I look for in a hybrid class? For one, if a simple archetype of a scavenging of class ability could do what the hybrid class does, then it has missed its mark. Secondly, and that's just as important, if not more so, it has to feel unique: It should not play like just a Frankenstein-conglomerate of class abilities that have been stitched together. Thirdly, the class needs its unique identity. A hybrid of hunter and slayer will probably be just another woodsy pet-fighter dude, for example. The kinetic shinobi fulfills all of these criteria with panache. The significant array of archetype support adds some seriously nice customization options to the class as well, making it excel at being the anime-ninja, the Psyclocke-ish character par excellence. That being said, there are a couple of minor issues here and some options that can potentially can cause hiccups in some games. Granted, these are few and far between and can easily be identified by a competent GM, but they're here. In the end, I consider this a very good hybrid class - one of my favorite 3pp hybrid classes alongside Forest Guardian Press' savage and Purple Duck Games' luminary , in fact, but these small imperfections are what costs this my seal of approval. Still, this remains one excellent addition to the game and well worth 5 stars.

Endzeitgeist out.

This… is something new!

5/5 —

First of all, what is a hybrid? For those of you that may not know, a “hybrid class” mixes things from two different classes to make something new. The magus class is the first hybrid class, before the controversial Advanced Class Guide came out and made ten new classes, a complete mixed bag. Anyway, kinetic shinobi? At first I thought this was the Naruto class, and in some ways it is, but really, there was nothing quite like this in PF. N. Jolly, famed master of all things kineticist, is the author.

So, the kinetic shinobi (KSh from now on) is a class that mixes the ninja and kineticist, with a bit of flavor/visuals from the soulknife psionic class. The KSh gets a d8 for HP, good REF and WILL saves medium BAB, proficiency in light armors and simple weapons, plus some ninjaish ones, 6 skill points and a decent list of class skills, this last one gets a bonus depending on the element chosen.

From the ninja, the KSh inherits a ki pool (which power the “burn” cost of their infusions), sneak attack of up to 7d6, the No Trace and Evasion class features, and some others part of the Shinobi Talents selectable class features. From the kineticist, the KSh inherits the Elemental Focus and Kinetic Blast, plus some “Meta” abilities (as if using extend, maximize or persistent spell metamagic feats) and the Gather Power class feature, which reduces the ki cost of infusions. The KSh, however, cannot “blast” normally without using one of two special form infusions (called jutsus) which basically give you a melee weapon that does very little damage, the physical jutsu gives you a physical weapon that targets normal AC, and the elemental jutsu gives you a magical attack targeting touch AC that lowers your sneak attack dice to d4. Since you create a weapon, you can full attack, vital strike and spring attack with both jutsus.

New toys for the class come via the ki pool, which gives you a bonus to attack (for physical jutsu) or damage (for elemental jutsu) that increases with level, as well as ye olde huge bonus to acrobatics. Just having one ki point in your pool gives you, at second level, the ability to modify your weapon via Hadou Techniques, which can give you a two hander, dual blades, or a 30 ft with no range increment ranged attack. From there, the KSh gives you at first and every odd levels a Shinobi Talent, a substance infusion via the Ninjutsu Training class feature they receive at fourth, twelfth and twentieth levels, plus a special Ninjutsu Specialist class feature that reduces the ki cost of their infusions incrementally by one point at fourth, tenth and sixteenth levels.

Shinobi Talents not only give you options to modify your blast, but also access to some other ninja, kineticist, unchained monk, and unchained rogue abilities! There are many of these and let you specialize or diversify in many ways.

Then we go to the archetypes section, first introducing the Arsenal Sniper. This one gives you the special ability of channeling your element through a ranged weapon! Basically you create elemental ammo for it, and you get to use feats and enhancement for the weapon! They also get the studied strike of the investigator instead of the sneak attack, as well as some exclusive new talents. Perfect archetype for sniping!

Brutal Assassin is next, gaining more martial and visceral powers. They can only use physical jutsus! You get increased sneak attack damage under certain circumstances. Basically a melee focused BAMF for those who want a melee ninja.

The Burglar is a relatively short archetype that gives you a Safe House (as the Vigilante’s social talent) and the Hide in Plain Sight class feature, at the cost of your third level Shinobi Talent and Evasion (ouch!).

Elemental Shinobi is next, gaining the elemental defense of their element, Elemental Overflow which works differently for them, and a ki pool that also works differently. Basically this archetype gives you a more mystical character but reduces your combat prowess since you lose Sneak Attack. You do get attack and damage bonuses from Elemental Overflow though.

The Fading Shadow is the next archetype, which get incredible powers of stealth and invisibility, at higher levels negating your scent and even your magical aura! This comes at the cost of only +5d6 Sneak Attack (a die every fourth level), and reduced damage when not invisible.

The Hand of the Kami would be the unarmed specialist archetype. They have different weapon proficiencies (more monkish). They also lose Sneak Attack and instead get full BAB and a weakened version of the unarmed attack damage of monks. They also get access to more monk toys, basically turning you into a monk/ninja/kineticist hybrid.

The Hi-Den Noble mixes the KSh with a bit of vigilante, getting a dual identity and some social abilities and talents, but this archetype comes with a kind of order. You must be member of a Hi-Den clan, which dictates some of your abilities and gives you an in-game relation to the shadow war of the clans. Of course as always you can just forget about the fluff and make your own, but the de facto clans sound intriguing. You also forego the Sneak Attack to get the vigilante’s hidden strike.

Metaformer are the masters of metajutsu, or well not really. They can change any instance of metajutsu they get with a form infusion appropriate for their element. They can also apply a form infusion to a blast already modified by the kunai hadou technique, giving them a ghetto version of a kineticist ranged blast modified by an infusion. They can’t get access to any form infusion that works as a weapon, like kinetic blade, kinetic fist etc.

Needler is an archetype that again mixes the base with another class, this time with the swashbuckler. As such, their ki pool works like panache, they can expend and regain it during the day. They get less skill points per level but gain an expanded weapon proficiency list plus a special elemental main-gauche hadou technique. They also exchange No Trace and Sneak Attack for the Nimble and Deeds class features of the Swashbuckler. They also get some special talents more fit for a swashbuckler than a ninja. This one really changes the mechanics and playstyle of the class, since being able to regain ki is a blast (pun fully intended).

Shadow Stepper is an archetype open only to void shinobi. These individuals reduce their skill points and get more caster-y class skills, since they cast spells as a bloodrager of their level. They cast illusion, light, darkness and shadow spells only, drwing them from the wizard and psychic spell lists. They pay for this with 5 talents and the no trace ability. Their ki pool also work differently, gaining the ability to spend a point and a spell slot to cast specific spells. Another crazy mixed archetype that pushes the boundaries of an already versatile class.

Shikon is the final archetype, and it is really crazy! It mixes the base class with black blade magus, but doesn’t cast spells. They get access to a spell list (from a sixth level casting class) and have a caster level, so they can use spell completion and trigger items. They get acces to some magus arcana and can fuel them with their ki, and they also get spell strike! But since they don’t cast spells, you can use spell completion or trigger items! Again, this archetype is made for those who wanted to play a kineticist, ninja and magus at the same time, but getting access to spell lists like the hunter, inquisitior or mesmerist is really crazy! I’m amazed and awed!

After the archetypes, we get favored class bonuses for ALL races in the Advanced Race Guide! Then we get some feats, three exclusive for the KSh and one that could benefit any Charisma-based class.

We finish the book with an NPC, Valerie Jette, a ninth level half drow void shinobi with a tragic past but a very positive outlook of life. As is the tradition of the author, she can give the PCs a boon!

This… book is not what I expected, in a good way. I expected a lesser hack of the parent classes, with a non-defined niche, like some of the classes form the Advanced Class Guide. N. Jolly delivers in spades with an intriguing class that plays exactly like a hybrid class should, but with its own unique tricks. The author’s most impressive feat is that it can work with most if not any ninja and kineticist book out there! There are some nice ninja talents from a nice new shiny ninja book you want for your KSh? You can have them! You want to play a KSh with a crazy element like viscera, time, or dream? You can! You want to play with a techno shinbi from the author’s newest element? Yep, you can! Kudos to the author, again showing how much you can stretch the kineticist engine. If you love the kineticist, ninjas, Naruto or fighting games, this book is for you!

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Woohoo! Let the kinetic killers roll!
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So, I'll admit I'm not the best at doing dev posts, considering my lack of practice in the matter, but in the immortal words of Jagged Edge, "we ain't gettin' no younger, so we might as well do it."

First of all, my thanks go out to the Legendary Games team, as well as to N. Jolly and the rest of team KoP for the opportunity to work on this product. It was quite a fun experience to see this class take shape from its beginnings as a Ninja archetype planned for Legendary Kineticists to the full class it is now!

I will say, the only downside I can think of is that this could be a little intimidating for less experienced players due to the massive range of options available. Even with the core form it gives you access to no less than five class ability lists (including the class's own unique shinobi talents), and some of the archetypes even give you six! As long as you have a general idea what direction to develop your character, however, it's a relatively simple matter to shave these down to the talents most beneficial to your playstyle.

Speaking of options, not only did this include a class which blends the workings of its parent classes rather well, but a pretty large number of the aforementioned archetypes which further diversify the options for development. Just to give you a small taste, I developed a couple of NPCs that any GMs could possibly make use of if the one included in the book wouldn't fit into their campaign: Oron Rafferty, a half-elf with orcish blood, a rivalry with the drow, and a rather unique companion, and Seamus Fordenson, a young sharpshooting farmer who is much more than even he knows.

I'll leave the finer details to N. Jolly. He seems to have rolled a little higher than I did on Charisma and put a few more skill points into Perform (Oratory). For now, though, I hope you folks enjoy the Kinetic Shinobi!
Silver Crusade
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Hey all, N. Jolly here. Glad to have Onyx finally jump into the convo, but as I love doing, it's time to hear me talk about things I've written because I am a sham.

The Class
Originally, this was going to be an archetype for the unchained ninja, but Jason N. asked if I wanted to do a hybrid class, I saw the potential here, and decided it was time to step this up to a full hybrid. Mechanics wise, it's kind of like an elemental annihilator, except not NEARLY as limited. But it is based around making weapons out of elemental matter instantly, so feel free to make a blade of shadows so you can be cool like me.

A big thing we wanted to do here was make sure that the Kinetic Shinobi was compatible with all other kineticist material. While I absolutely LOVE the Shifu's way of handling infusions, the Kinetic Shinobi needed to work with everything that would come out, and I'm very happy with the way we did that. Sure, it's not great with form infusions, but everything else works perfectly with existing and future material, meaning you can use this with both Viscera and Dream as well as Mind.

Also hadou techniques are just cool and something I love using.

The Talents
We really went all out with the talents here, there's about 50 of them, although considering some of the hadou technique themed talents that are like 3 talents in one, I think the number's probably closer to 60. Mort and Onyx were pretty creative in the new ways to work with talents, and it really shows. My faves are obviously the ones that modify hadou techniques, but I just kind of love that concept myself.

The Archetypes
Oh yeah, forgot...there's 11 archetypes. Let me hit the high points in my opinion. A: I love arsenal sniper (the only archetype that I fully designed).

That's it.

Nah, there's a ton of other cool ones in there. Arsenal sniper allows you to use a crossbow or gun to focus your kinetic blast, which to me is something that is just amazing. Brutal Assassin is the smash mouth style, less versatile, but more...brutal. Burglar gets a safehouse, and god help me, I would have just called it the home owner archetype if I could have.

Elemental Shinobi is more for people who want to play something closer to a normal kineticist while still being a ninja. Falling shadow is all about non detection, except even better than a normal ninja. Then we have Hand of the Kami, this is your classic punch ninja that can shoot fire. Hi-den noble is the archetype for pun lovers (all 3 of you) and those who wanted to play a vigilante ninja, but with kinetic weaponry.

Metaformer is basically the 'stick this on everything' archetype, it gives a bit of versatility to the metajutsu (which is basically metakinesis but with a better name). Needlers are the more flashy fighters here with a shift in how they gain ki. Shadow Stepper is [Shadow Dancer remake 5], but much cooler, since again, ninja. And I'd probably say the Shikon is the closest to a samurai of the archetypes, a nice little touch.

The Rest
Onyx went all out in doing favored class bonuses for basically EVERYTHING, there's even a few feats in there to make sure you can run the class as optimally as possible. That and we have an adorable and perfect sample character in Vallerie Jette, inspired by quite a few of my favorite ninjas with amazing art by Tanyaporn Yuikami Sangsnit.

This was another seriously fun project on which to work, and it gave me another chance to work with both my favorite team and class in the game, so check it out if you get the chance!
Silver Crusade

@Amartinez
Feel free to PM or email me about this (n.jolly@ymail.com) so I can address any issues you have here.

P.S. Let me run some damage calcs, see if it really is that bad with one of Onyx's characters. If that's the case, I'll talk to the publisher about doing an update for this, and we'll see if things can get fixed up.

Also from the copy I have, ninja tricks can be taken at any time, and master tricks have to wait until 10th level to be taken.

And you can full attack with the jutsu talents, you don't need kinetic kunai or kinetic katana to full attack. Just applying the physical or elemental jutsu to the blast allows you to full attack with it.

I also noticed he mentioned a line/cone attack dealing 1d4 damage, as well as reducing sneak attack to d4s when using kinetic katana? I honestly have no idea where these ideas are coming from, as dragonbreath deals the damage of your focused jutsu and the only cases where sneak attack damage is reduced is with certain archetypes.
Silver Crusade
Onyx Tanuki wrote:
I also noticed he mentioned a line/cone attack dealing 1d4 damage, as well as reducing sneak attack to d4s when using kinetic katana? I honestly have no idea where these ideas are coming from, as dragonbreath deals the damage of your focused jutsu and the only cases where sneak attack damage is reduced is with certain archetypes.

Well Elemental Jutsu reduces the d6 to a d4, but that's also a touch attack.

But I think the misunderstanding is that physical and elemental jutsu are able to be used as full round attacks, and I can see through the wording that it could be misunderstood as just being able to standard attack with them once or once in a full attack action. I'm also not sure if the FAQ was included in the doc like I was hoping, even if it doesn't impact this since I haven't gotten the final draft.

Wow...I don't leave reviews because, admittedly, I'm not that good at parsing mechinics until after several read throughs.
Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Hi all - I sent Jolly and Onyx the final copy to make sure no editing artifacts cropped up and that everything is working as it should. They'll be reviewing it this weekend and if there are fixes to be made we'll get it loaded back up at the various sales sites (Paizo won't be updated until at least Monday because all uploaded files have to be manually approved by staff); anyone who has bought a copy will get a notice to redownload the corrected copy.

We appreciate all reviews, even if they aren't so favorable, as they help us notice things that might have slipped through and help us fix them and make our products Legendary!

I love the flavor of this class. Well done!
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Alrighty, to those who might be worried about the numbers, I'm going to give you some calcs based on a 12th level kinetic shinobi.

Before that, though, I should mention that ninja tricks (and by extension rogue talents) can be taken as early as 1st level, not 10th. It's master tricks and advanced rogue talents that you'll need to wait until 11th for. Also, utility wild talents can be taken as early as 3rd level (though they are limited to no more than 6th level wild talents). That said, let's get to the numbers.

Now, being a 3/4 BAB class, a 12th level will have +9 BAB, giving them two attacks baseline. With the kinetic katana hadou they deal 1d8+1.5Cha per hit, which totals to 2d8+3Cha, while using dual jutsu gives them a third attack at 1d4+Cha (total 3d4+3Cha), and kinetic kunai gives them the standard damage of 1d4+Cha with two attacks (total 2d4+2Cha). This can be used with Vital Strike, so if you don't like doing full attacks, you can just do that instead. If you're okay with spending ki points you could use speed strike for an additional attack on any of these actions, or use starstorm art for two additional attacks on kinetic kunai, bringing the katana damage up to 3d8+4.5Cha or the dual jutsu/kunai damage to 4d4+4Cha.

If you've gone the focused jutsu route, you can use standard attacks with 4d4 damage added on, so we'd be looking at 1d8+4d4+1.5Cha or 5d4+Cha depending on your choice of hadou. This same damage is applied to dragonbreath, which uses the damage from focused jutsu, so you're dealing this damage in a 10 ft. cone or 20 ft. line (which increases if you're willing to spend ki or you've taken the kobold FCB enough times).

And in all of the above cases, you have the potential for sneak attack damage as well; that's an additional 4d6 precision damage. Do keep in mind that the above numbers are for physical blasts, though; energy blasts will deal 4d4 sneak attack instead, and in most cases will omit or severely reduce the damage added from Cha. Still, that means full attacks could deal 3d8+1.5Cha or 4d4 damage before sneak attack, or deal 1d8+4d4+0.5Cha or 5d4 damage on dragonbreath.

Essentially, this class's damage is only limited to 1d4+Cha in the same way a fighter with a light hammer is limited to 1d4+Str. Yes, if all you do is standard attacks with no utilization of your abilities, that's all the damage you'll do, but that's almost never going to be the case with the options you have available.
Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Thanks for posting that up, Onyx.
Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Thanks for the review, Elegant Egoist!

Disclaimer: I was given a free pdf by the author in exchange for an honest review.

I have nothing negative to say about this class or its many options. The author draws inspiration from many parts of real world ninja history and lore and applies Eastern-flavored elemental spirituality and philosophy. There are a LOT of options to choose from.

I recommend this to any player who wants to add a new "element" to their stealthy characters.
Silver Crusade
Arcanemuses wrote:

Disclaimer: I was given a free pdf by the author in exchange for an honest review.

I have nothing negative to say about this class or its many options. The author draws inspiration from many parts of real world ninja history and lore and applies Eastern-flavored elemental spirituality and philosophy. There are a LOT of options to choose from.

I recommend this to any player who wants to add a new "element" to their stealthy characters.

I'm glad to hear it, I'm actually glad this hybrid class turned out as well as it did myself.

WEELP. looking back on my review, Maybe I went a bit to long-but it just kinda came along as is. that said, this was a while coming. thanks for putting something like this out- its rather impressive, and i rate it well just because of some of the concepts on call here.

also, Ranged ideas unite! this gave me more stuff to work with in the future for certain.
Silver Crusade

Ha, I wouldn't say there's such a thing as a review taht's too long. Sorry I wasn't able to get back to all of your messages, as I've had a lot on my plate, but I'm glad you liked it! It was Team KOP's first attempt at a hybrid class, and overall I'd say we had a lot of fun with it.
Silver Crusade
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You do realize that with the neurokineticist options from Legendary Kineticist that this class represents theoretically another way to build a Psylocke-style character for Pathfinder? I'm looking at writing up an NPC that explores this possibility (mind as primary, aether as secondary) to see how well it would mesh together. The BAB won't be as high as a Soulknife's but I'm looking more at the versatility aspect than anything else. Could be fun. I'll let you know what I figure out.
Silver Crusade

The fading shadow receives vanishing trick at 1st level instead of a shinobi talent, but doesn't receive a ki pool until 2nd level. Since using vanishing trick requires the expenditure of ki, does this mean they're stuck unable to use vanish until 2nd level?
Silver Crusade
Blayde MacRonan wrote:
The fading shadow receives vanishing trick at 1st level instead of a shinobi talent, but doesn't receive a ki pool until 2nd level. Since using vanishing trick requires the expenditure of ki, does this mean they're stuck unable to use vanish until 2nd level?

Yeah, they'd have to hold off since they lack the resource, so it might be a better idea to snag it later.

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Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS, etc.
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That's a great review, End! This PDF/class sounds like it's a great piece of work.

Thank you, Eric. It took a lot of work to finish. And yeah, the class is pretty much one of the really good examples of what a hybrid class should offer regarding new playstyle choices etc. :)
Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My feeling on hybrid classes is that they really have to play with some kind of schtick all their own. Simple mash-ups of two base classes don't really interest me. They have a place in the game, in the same way that bags of holding, +1 longswords, and rings of protection have a place in the game, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of creating a new melded class I want it to do something fun and interesting that other classes don't, and to have a theme that it fits all the way through.

Needless to say, I think this class delivers that!
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+1 to everything you said, Jason.

New playstyle, distinct identity, unique options - those are, to me, the bread and butter of good hybrid classes.
Jason Nelson wrote:

My feeling on hybrid classes is that they really have to play with some kind of schtick all their own. Simple mash-ups of two base classes don't really interest me. They have a place in the game, in the same way that bags of holding, +1 longswords, and rings of protection have a place in the game, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of creating a new melded class I want it to do something fun and interesting that other classes don't, and to have a theme that it fits all the way through.

Needless to say, I think this class delivers that!

Your Doomguard class certainly does that, and I'm not just saying that because it gave me a way to play a human character who looks animalistic.

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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Let me first say that I absolutely love this class. It's probably my favorite third party hybrid both for the amazing design ideas behind it as well as the theme (elemental characters, ninjas, and Psylockesque weapon creators are all in my top favorite fictional tropes, so this book is totally my jam).

That said, I'm looking forward to writing a review, but before I feel like I can do it justice, I have a few (okay, a bunch) of questions, some for balance reasons, some because (what I think are) the RAI seem to be omitted in the RAW, and some because I'm having a hard time assuming the RAI.

Physical/Elemental Jutsu: These seem to be intended to create a a pseudo-manufactured weapon, and all of the Hadou techniques follow this pattern, making the kinetic blast take the form of different wielded weapons that are in most ways treated as such, but there are some exceptions, and I'm not sure what are intended and what aren't:


  • The base 'weapon' damage being 1d4 for most forms and 1d8 for the katana form implies that they are intended to represent a dagger and katana wielded by a medium-sized creature. Is it intended that the damage is always the same, regardless of the creature size, or should a smaller or larger Kinetic Shinobi adjust the damage dice accordingly? It's not an issue for the base Kineticist, because their damage scales with level like a more prototypical spell-like ability, but this class is a bit of an edge case between mechanics.
  • The existence of Razor Jutsu and Heavy Katana leads me to think we're to assume the critical range and modifier of all forms is 20x2 like a vanilla Kinetic Blast unless explicitly stated otherwise, is that correct? If so, does that not make criticals with these weapons somewhat underwhelming, since a dagger is 19-20x2 base and a katana is 18-20x2 base, while the Kinetic Shinobi needs to spend two of their talents to get, at best, a 19-20x3 version of a katana (which also locks up one of their two advanced Hadou if using True Fusion) that can't be improved by feats or other crit boosts, whereas a base katana can be modified to 15-20x2 with one feat? As far as I can find, they don't seem to have any special damage bonuses that would be modified by critical hits except for the +2-12 bonus from spending a Ki point on Elemental Jutsu, which is inconsequential since it comes at a limited resource cost and doesn't scale with any ability scores.
  • Is an amulet of mighty fists, or some other magic item, intended to apply to these weapons, or is there some other way to get them an enhancement bonus and magic weapon properties that I've just completely missed (without playing an Arsenal Sniper or Shikon, since they just use manufactured weapons)? If not, that seems to me to be a big oversight that makes them outright inferior to manufactured weapons and other 'weapon creator' classes like the Soulknife which get an enhancement bonus that passively scales with levels.

Hadou Techniques, Hadou Admixture, and True Hadou Fusion:


  • This one's less of a question and more of an observation: Twin Stars existing implies that you are not intended to be able to use Kinetic Kunai with two weapon fighting. As it's written, I can see nothing that would actually prevent you from doing exactly that, though - you would not need to be able to create two weapons at once to throw them with each hand while making a full attack action, since as written, creating them is 'part of an attack action,' which seems to allow you to create-and-throw them using Kinetic Kunai and either alternate hands or swap the weapon between hands as a free action before throwing it. This could use an errata to explicitly bar it without the explicit ability granted to use dual jutsu with it.
  • Is there any particular reason the damage of Twin Stars is reduced? This penalizes the two-weapon Kinetic Shinobi throwing build in a way that no other throwing build I know of is punished, which seems to be a bizarre design choice that isn't really rooted in any mathematical need for a reduction, especially considering the one-handed build allows Kunai Grenade + Greater Vital Strike + Startoss Shower, which is head-and-shoulders better, especially against adjacent targets.
  • What is the intended behavior of Titangrip Jutsu? My assumption would be that both hands deal 1d8+Cha Mod with Physical Jutsu and 1d8 with Elemental Jutsu and they are treated as one-handed weapons, but RAW is very unclear, and by an extremely strict reading I think you would be wielding two light weapons each dealing 1d8 + 1 1/2 Cha Mod with Physical Jutsu and 1d8 + 1/2 Cha Mod with Elemental Jutsu - that seems unintended, especially considering how conservative the other damage options are.
  • Weighted Kunai seems less burdened by the lack of explicit rules text, but just to be certain, the intent is that you can throw the Kinetic Katana with a range of 20 feet (80 with Extended Kunai) and deal 1d8 + 1 1/2 Cha Mod with Physical or 1/2 Cha Mod with Elemental Jutsu, correct?
  • Using True Hadou Fusion, would Titangrip Technique + Weighted Kunai not produce the exact same effect as Twin Stars + Weighted Kunai, except that the former would deal full damage instead of reducing it by one step (at the cost of -1 AC/Reflex)?
  • How are Bomb Blast, Kinetic Naginata, Kinetic Yeoman, Oni Force, Starstorm Art, and (Greater) Vigilant Blade intended to interact with each other and with Advanced and True Fusion Hadou techniques? Fully compatible unless explicitly noted otherwise?

Ninja Trick: It seems odd that this leaves the relevant ability scores of Ninja Tricks as written by default - should Ninja Tricks be based on Charisma for a Kinetic Shinobi, where appropriate? What about Rogue Talents acquired as Ninja Tricks?

Needler

Hadou Techniques / Elemental Main Gauche: As written, this seems to make it impossible to use Precise Strike or any other ability that functions in the 'open hand' style with kinetic blast, due to the requirement that the character be holding a weapon in the main hand to create the main gauche, since there is no other base Hadou technique that creates a single one handed melee weapon, is that intended?

Kinetic Partisan: Contrary to the starting Hadou techniques, this seems like it would allow you to use a two handed weapon with Precise Strike and other single-one-hander abilities as written, which is extremely powerful since it could also be used with 1 1/2 Power Attack and other two hander abilities that Precise Strike is intended as a counterbalance to. Is this intended or does this ability need to be noted that it doesn't count as wielding a single one handed weapon?

Sorry that got a bit long!
Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

No problem - thanks for the in depth thoughts. I'll ping Jolly and have him stop by the thread and give some answers!
Silver Crusade
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Rather than quote your post, I'll try to answer where I can.

Phys/Elem Jutsu

-The damage does increase/decrease by size, yes.
-That is correct, it's assumed to be 20/x2, which does make their crits underwhelming, it's something I might change if I can get back under the hood as it were.
-This was something that I should have included in the book, and while it might be in a future product, for the moment I'm going to say Amulet of Mighty Fist works with these weapons.

Hadou

-I will need to errata that, yeah.
-This was due to us fearing it would do too much damage, but after the whole damage discussion in the thread, I don't think it needs the reduction, so feel free to ignore it.
-You're correct on your assumption there, we'll be changing that when given the chance.
-That is the intent, yes.
-Well damn, I guess that is correct. Another reason to ignore the reduction in damage.
-Yes, they're intended to be fully compatible.

Needler

I can't really speak on this one, as this wasn't my part of the project, but it's something I should ping one of the other members. I think this was Mort's, but I'll ask both her and Onyx.

Will we be getting an update here?
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks so much for the quick and thorough responses, guys. I really appreciate it and I love your work.
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I'll field those Needler questions.

The intention behind Elemental Main Gauche is that you're holding a physical weapon and use your "blast" to create your offhand, as opposed to making a weapon in your main hand. It's not something that should work with a main-hand blast unless you pick up something like Hadou Admixture (Titangrip Technique).

My understanding of precise strike was that you could technically have an offhand weapon, you just can't use it to attack. So while you could use EMG with it, you wouldn't actually be able to use your main gauche blast in precise strike attacks. In cases where you specifically can't use an offhand weapon (such as Dervish Dance), keep in mind that just because you can create a main gauche doesn't mean you have to.

That said, yes, you *could* use Kinetic Partisan with Kinetic Katana, making it viable for precise strike. To be fair, you can do the same with a manufactured katana if you possess Slashing Grace (although you need to be 5th level, or 3rd as a human, to do it). I'd honestly errata it to say that you wield such weapons one-handed, though, as that was the intention.
Silver Crusade
Fellfire wrote:
Will we be getting an update here?

I doubt it unless we find a very large issue, which is why I do my best to answer any questions where I can.

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the additional answers, Onyx!

I agree that with your errata, it's perfectly reasonable, the only concern I had was the potential for "double dipping" 1 1/2 Charisma + Power Attack + Precise Strike, which would be ugly (and doesn't work with Slashing Grace per the FAQ about bastard sword and katana handedness shenanigans).
Silver Crusade

Thanks for the review Draeth (and for crossposting it on Drivethru), it really helps us out to see both when we're making mistakes and to show other people when we do something well. Reviews are silly important to we writers, and each one, good or bad, is appreciated.
Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Thanks for the review, Draeth! We're glad you loved the book and also thank you for the feedback.

If you could crosspost your review to the book's Amazon page as well, we would be most appreciative, as reviews figure heavily into their sorting algorithm for how products are made visible on their system.

Thanks again!
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm happy to do it! Just crossposted to Amazon, so it should be published soon.

Good third party work keeps the game fun and fresh. I'm working on a campaign right now that's a thematic gish of Avatar versus Naruto, and after picking out all the material I'm going to use for the factions, I realized it sort of turned into Team KOP's Kineticists versus Dreamscarred Press's Path of War and Psionics under the hood (with this class somewhere in the secretive middle space).

I'm going to try to get a review out for each book as I can get through them all, so I'll probably have more questions on the other product pages sooner or later :)
Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
Draeth Darkstar wrote:

I'm happy to do it! Just crossposted to Amazon, so it should be published soon.

Good third party work keeps the game fun and fresh. I'm working on a campaign right now that's a thematic gish of Avatar versus Naruto, and after picking out all the material I'm going to use for the factions, I realized it sort of turned into Team KOP's Kineticists versus Dreamscarred Press's Path of War and Psionics under the hood (with this class somewhere in the secretive middle space).

I'm going to try to get a review out for each book as I can get through them all, so I'll probably have more questions on the other product pages sooner or later :)

Awesome, many thanks!

I actually have a bit of a conundrum, as the Hand of the Kami archetype has a rather glaring contradiction in it.

It specifically bars taking ninja trick or master trick with shinobi talents, but then it's "suggested" to take both a ninja trick AND a master trick later (the immediate following "paragraph", actually).

So, are Hands of the Kami able to make use of ninja tricks and master tricks, or not?

*very confused white kitsune fades into the shadows to await an answer*

If in doubt, restrictions will override suggestions; the latter are sometimes forgotten while balancing is fine-tuned in development; I assume that's what's happened here. While I'd usually suggest de-limiting, qinggong power can be incredibly flexible, so I'd frankly be weary there..
Endzeitgeist wrote:
If in doubt, restrictions will override suggestions; the latter are sometimes forgotten while balancing is fine-tuned in development; I assume that's what's happened here. While I'd usually suggest de-limiting, qinggong power can be incredibly flexible, so I'd frankly be weary there..

Making a NPC Hand of the Kami as a shrine guardian and "bounty" known as "the Mountain". And re-read qinggong ki powers ... suddenly not feeling so jilted about no ninja tricks ... he won't miss them save for in sparring sessions with his siblings and fellow "bounties" - "the Wind" (a Fading Shadow) and "the Waterfall" (an Elemental Shinobi).

These three are a small little addition I make to any table, known collectively as the "Three Storms". In 3.5e they were elves and used the Tome of Battle extensively. For Pathfinder, thank the kami for the kitsune race. And thanks to the folks at Legendary Games for Kinetic Shinobi!
Traysheia wrote:

I actually have a bit of a conundrum, as the Hand of the Kami archetype has a rather glaring contradiction in it.

It specifically bars taking ninja trick or master trick with shinobi talents, but then it's "suggested" to take both a ninja trick AND a master trick later (the immediate following "paragraph", actually).

So, are Hands of the Kami able to make use of ninja tricks and master tricks, or not?

*very confused white kitsune fades into the shadows to await an answer*

If I recall correctly, the archetypes were written and then another person on the team went back and added Suggested Shinobi Talents. I would assume this is a disconnect between the two and would advise ignoring the suggested talents were it is in error.

The Mortonator wrote:
If I recall correctly, the archetypes were written and then another person on the team went back and added Suggested Shinobi Talents. I would assume this is a disconnect between the two and would advise ignoring the suggested talents were it is in error.

Thankies, Mortonator! I know anytime I have rules questions to come to the discussion boards or the errata faq, but third-party stuff is a fox of another color, right?

Traysheia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
If I recall correctly, the archetypes were written and then another person on the team went back and added Suggested Shinobi Talents. I would assume this is a disconnect between the two and would advise ignoring the suggested talents were it is in error.
Thankies, Mortonator! I know anytime I have rules questions to come to the discussion boards or the errata faq, but third-party stuff is a fox of another color, right?

Yep, this should be fine. N. Jolly usually keeps up to date with these threads. (And clearly my color is best color. :p #vain)

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