The more I read these the more I sour on sneak attack for the slayer. The class begs for some sort of damage mechanic that can be executed solo and/ or at a distance with regularity. The whole fluff of the class is this brooding solitary stalker...a skilled and sleek killer. A guy patterened after characters like Riddick, Wolverine, Deathstroke, or Artemis Entreri. It just seems thematically wrong that he be so reliant on a partner, or bluffing to be leathal. He should be so dangerous because he is just that damn good. To steal a line....the best there is at what he does,and what he does ain't pretty. I am not sure if Bane works, or something similar to above using vital strike, or doubling down on favored target with a more robust damage, but a robust corner stone ability that makes the slayer superior solo killer is strongly called for.
I am unsure of the breadth of this entire argument without actual play testing...but I agree with the sentiment whole heartedly...with what it gives up, it should be a head and shoulders better melee combatant than the Ranger and Rogue, the fact that there is even room for debate is cause for concern. Considering no trap finding, AC,spells, fewer skills etc...
I love this, but I fear nobody would ever take anything else.
nothing always succeeds, and why should it? Seems like there isn't much of a game if things always work.
Grey Lensman wrote:
It does seem odd that a hybrid between ranger and rogue would have less skill points than either of the two parent classes, doesn't it?
you know at first I thought this too, but if the class stays invested in having a good INT score you are going to have scads of skill points anyway.
As a player if you took all of my high level spells I would want something in the bargain or I would just never play a full caster. It's just way to many dead levels with nothing new to do. You can't do something like this and have it be all stick no carrot. Maybe bonus feats? Or free access to a prestige class? You have to give the full casters something in trade other then you can do more of the same things over the final 6 odd levels of your career.
I agree with your first statement whole heartedly I dislike not " being my character" from first level very much. I am even hesitant to multi class unless I can at least passingly play my concept from day one.
Your second statement has always boggled my mind. How can people get so up in arms over the base class, archetype, kit etc..etc.. Debate..? Functionally I see no difference but nomenclature.
true....I do love my knowledge checks. I strictly roleplay meta gaming and player knowledge though, so knowledge skills are a must.
This one here is the first thing that came to my mind. I think people underestimate how often Paizo designers use buffs to create stat blocks. I have cruised our group through famous mass party wipe encounters by have multiple dispels loaded.
Damage dealer, damage taker, problem solver ...that's all you absolutely have to have and even those can over lap. If you have more spots add in a healer, talker and an enabler. Many classes cover these roles. Notably...
Damage dealer- Barbarian, Fighter, Ninja. magus
Damage taker - paladin, barbarian, fighter
Problem solver- wizard, sorcerer, witch, ranger
Healer- cleric, Druid, oracle
Enabler- bard, wizard, cleric
Talker- sorcerer, inquisitor, rogue, bard
In short it's not really about the class so much as the build. Sure there are some classes that can't cover certain roles...but most with a little work can cover many,
I think people get far too caught up in what other folks are going. If your character is fun to play and good enough at these things you want him to be good at to contribute, it shouldn't matter if somebody else does better damage. As long as everyone is playing within the rules you should all get your time to shine.
pretty much this, if you played american football at the professional level without pads...people would die.
Nox Aeterna wrote:
This one is a winner....our group does this a lot. One person takes leadership and has a cleric follower. Throw em in the stoutest armor you can get your hands on and let them channel and cast heals and buffs.
Any healing class will do, but we tread lightly on how effective these followers are in combat so as not to be abusive, knowing how leadership can get out of hand.
Take my opinions with a massive grain of salt because I havent run or played Shadowrun since 3rd ed. But my group and I loved that game to pieces back in highschool and then in college through today I havent been able to find folks who will play it and I figured out why. Back when I ran Shadowrun I found the rules a little clunky for the high speed, fast paced, Die Hard style action sets that we craved out of the admitedly fantastic setting. I found that I often streamlined bits of the rules to really kick up the high octane action and increase the pace of the game.
Also things like Decking and the Matrix while awesome if everyone is playing one are really boring for the rest of the party if the decker has a whole side quest right in the middle of a session.
The third thing that I think helped is that while Shadowrun is a fantastic setting full of tons of great stuff a lot of folks run struggle to come up with over arching campaigns, plots etc.. It's very easy to fall into the "run of the week" routine. Be wary of that and try to change it up after a few sessions. Just like any RPG an over arching plot, changing set pieces and flexiblity in what your party will do are key. One of our best times was a campaign where the party started out primarily as car thieves ala grand theft auto and at that time there werent even rules for car chases in the game....
To the OP. I think there is also a variance that has to be granted to organized players. I dont really care how a ruling goes for a given debate because I only play home games, and at the end of the day we will run it how we think works best...wrongbadfun be damned. Or at the very least delay the rules change/ clarification until after the current campaign wraps up.
But I can certainly see that organized players have a lot more skin in the game. These rulings always directly affect the character they are playing, there is no ability to shrug it off and say " I will just house rule it out". In some cases these people have a couple of years of their life emotionally invested. To change how things work, or clarify how it should have worked all along can really mess up something they have poured a lot of time and creativity into.
He is wielding a Falcata, it's a crit fisher build...and it's a spell that gives him flaming and bumps to burst when he uses judgement.
This feat is next on my list....that and the feat that improves crit confirm, sorry mental blank at work.
Yes I was looking into that some how. Just read up on the spell (nice), but what does it mean " If you are using the judgment class feature, your weapon gains the flaming burst property instead." Does it mean that you get burst just because it is an inquisitor or that a specific judgement has to be used?
It means that whenever you are using a judgement...any judgement, that your Falcata with an amazing crit range that I highly recommend expanding with Keen asap is now flaming burst.
Maybe it's because we are all adults of at least 30 years of age, or because I got lucky....but my group of ten years has never once cared nor had to care about anyone min-maxing a character. In fact the only rebuilds that have ever occurred were characters that turned out too weak and ineffective....usually because the concept sounded fun, but the rules didn't support it well enough.
To get back to the topic at hand, I don't think it is really a matter of being special enough to play your " snowflake".There is a give and take to these sort of things and selfish people will be selfish, meanwhile others will work together to build a mutual world. working together contrary to what some believe is a two way street. A DM has a social contract with the players to provide mutual entertainment and the players have a contract to buy in and participate in the story. If your character breaks the contract by not buying into the setting and story you are being selfish....but on the other side of that coin if you as a DM set the criteria for what fits your world to be so narrow as to prevent your players from being able to create characters they love enough to aid in their emersion....then you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. I hate the term snowflake by the way it clearly takes on side of the debate and defaults the player position to derogatory.
The thing to remember here is that as DM you are privy to knowledge low level bandits are not going to be aware of, and resources that they may not be able to bring to bare as often as would be logical. You know exactly how to pick apart a party that these bandits have never even met. Second level bandits using these kind of tactics, plus having access to magic traps, and being prepped with alchemist fire is not only unlikely, but really expensive. 6 doses of alchemist fire and a casting of pyrotechnics every time someone wanders in? That is some mighty pricey tactics, not to mention how does a second level bandit know how to set up a magical blinding effect, prioritize the casters, and prepare touch attacks for the high AC's.
Now if you come back and tell me these bandits have a backer with an advanced knowledge of tactics and are protecting something worth that expense...fair enough, but if this is just a trap set up to snare unwary I think you have gone a little overboard.
I am playing a conversion Inquisition inquisitor of Besmara and he is working out great. Half Elf, built towards crits with his trusty Falcata. Ended up being voted captain because of my social game and still had room to squeeze in profession sailor. It really is a nice build with stuff to do at all times....you won't be the best at anything, but you will be good at just about everything.
Two feats and skill points spent to get the same damage and to hit as a strength fighter with zero feats invested, and it only applies to one weapon, and if he wants to be good at maneuvers he needs to take a third feat....this is before he even takes the maneuver feat in question mind you. Meanwhile at first level the strength fighter can use a two hander, grab power attack and Improved sunder and be exactly where the dervish guy is levels later.......I'm fine with it.
Drannor Hawksley wrote:
Re- spell cards, a guy in our group makes these all the time....al you need is a printer and sleeves like you would traditionally use for magic cards. Not a ton of work and seems to do quite well....just a thought,
Are your PC's dying because they are under equipped for the encounters they face? If not then you are doing just fine. Wealth while an important part of the the game in some regards is also very fluid. As long as you don't have players who can't afford magic weapons in encounters where they can't hit without them I wouldn't agonize over it too much.
Custom Mini's for whatever reason, I really dislike when my mental character and mini are not as close in appearance as I envisioned. It is often the case where I find the mini to build the character around rather the other way around....if I could have one custom built for the campaign that would be epic....seems like in the age of 3d printing somebody could hook that up.
If you are going this route I would say the only way to keep the other party member from getting upset with you is to make a martially viable caster. You may not be as good as a fighter all the time, but when the chips are down and you decide to break out the big guns as it were...it needs to be memorable and a big show. A level of wizard isn't going to cut it...after all the reason you hold back is because this power is dangerous.
I would be looking at Magus, Arcane Duelist, or Inquisitor.
All of them have some nice spells, access to scrolls or umd, and can do a fair amount of business with a sword. Magus is probably the best because you can take archetypes that really pare their spell list down for even more martial ability while not sacrficing over all spell level and they are really frighteningly potent when they Nova. Still the other two aren't slouches and come with their own diverse slate of abilities aside from spells that will keep you from being an anchor around the parties neck when you choose not to cast.
Just because the father isnt a traitor does not mean someone in his organization cannot be bought.
In fact I would make it a red herring for a bit that maybe the father isnt on the up and up, have the PC's investigate how "X" was stolen right out from under his nose and through investigation uncover that the PC's father has a rat in his organization.
You can then have a whole adventure about hunting down this betrayer for clues as to where the item in question ended up and who paid him to take it etc...
A true Paladin isnt strictly impossible. I would refrain from having large pubilc organizations of them and stick to Inqusitior for that, but as a unique character it could certainly work...sort of a Rose growing up through the parking lot if you will.
In fact it could be a really cool character arc for a PC to constantly be faced with the depravity and chaos of the rapidly modernizing world and trying to beat it back with just his faith and antiquated armor to protect him.
Assuming in this setting Firearms go from Exotic to Martial perharps Paladins are forbiden to use them along with a general mandate to foresake technological advances in general. A small and secret organization of Holy powered Menonites who use their faith to bring low evil where they find it.
They use torches when gaslights exist, they wear full plate when most are wearing chain and the like, The may even refuse to use things like Airships because a good horse as provided by the gods is all a devout soldier needs.
First thing that came to mind on Summoner. Clockwork animals was the first thing that came to mind. Little steam and magic powered critters of brass and gears. They have magic for sure, but a good portion of the power is syphoned off to power their creations and manipulate the extra dementional spaces they store them in...
For bonus points...
Synthesist Summoner = Mech Pilot.
Other takes would be the clasical Frankenstien/ ReAnimator and the Lovecraftian pact with the great beyond. really the rules do not have to functionally change for any of the above three you just have to re-skin the critters to screwed up tentacle faced dream cats, semi-undead creepy wolves and clock work owls and of course design the Eidolon to suit the theme.
I think it's worth noting that something is always going the be the " best option" for a given level. That doesn't inherently make it over powered. Beyond that nerfing that thing just makes the next thing take its spot. Haste may be the best spell of its level, but I think the fact that it helps the whole party shine rather than hog glory is a notch in its favor for keeping it intact. Especially in light of the fact the next spell on the list may not be so party friendly.
Just to be sure, you are aware it is only an extra attack on a full attack action. No extra spells, no extra attack if you move etc....
I ask because I have never heard of Haste being called broken...it makes me wonder.
As to how to fix it, high AC, mirror image, slow spell, invisibility, and any of a hundred other things can really slow down extra attacks. He'll even just moving will do it sometimes.
A good player with a solid attention span should not need you to lead them down the path of paying attention off turn. There are always opportunities to roleplay, make suggestions, if they are the type of party that works together they can discuss tactics. etc...
That being said if the style of your game has actively contributed to everyone working in silos so to speak there are a few things you can do to perk up their ears and get them more invested again when the dice arent in their hands.
The first is...give them the chance to pick up the dice off turn more often. Maybe have a few baddies provoke AOO's even when tactically speaking they wouldnt. But only if the players notice the chance is there. Do it a few times, but never mention it....if they alert and involved they get to take their swing. If they are checking their email, they miss out.
Another way is to really play up tactics. If a PC who isnt currently at the top of the intiative tracker makes a quick roll off turn for knowledge on a monster and shouts out a monsters weakness really encourage that sort of behavior...mechanically if possible. A extra plus one to hit doesnt seem like much, but for a couple of seconds of participation it can make somebody feel engaged when they arent swinging and slinging.
Lastly award in combat RP...If you have a character point system, a free point for RPing your anger at a friend getting layed low in the round preceeding you activating Rage is a nice time to give out a free one....
Those just a few thoughts I could toss out, doubtless there are many more.
I will say all of these are nice ideas and hallmarks of a good player, so I agree with a lot of you. That being said , if I ever saw a DM mechanically penalize a player for vascilating about what he wants to do next, or having to look up the occasional spell, or god forbid rolling his damage after his to hit, I think I would politely quit that game. There is being the arbiter of rules and teller of the story and then there is strong arming your personal foibles onto people because you have the " power".
I think the idea is that while Humans make a pretty good everything, there are specific races that are fantastic at certain classes. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves make great inquisitors, Elves make great wizards, Dwarves are good for most any fighter type etc...Plus dont discount improved vision, bonuses to things like perception and alternate race traits that are great for specific campaigns..
Sure you can make a good character from any class using a human, but there are certain races that fill a specific niche just a little bit better. Take my current inquisitor for example, sure I could have been a human and taken exotic weapon proficiency to get my weapon of choice, or I could take Half-Elf which gets me Ancestral weapon for the same net result and the other bonuses dovetail to the class just that little bit better.