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I vote a soft no. There are some odd circumstances here that make me say that he shouldnt fall but a RP laden warning from his diety of sort might be in order.
1) He didnt speak the language, so talking doesnt really = parlay. Maybe a sense motive might have helped here and should have been offered. Certainly could have been an exchange of taunts and threats for all he knew.
2) He isn't a standard pally correct? The focus is far more on the good than the lawful. So this thing attacks with no provocation and is a public menace. assuming I do understand we are negotiating do I think it should be negotiated with? What if we let it be and it wanders off to attack some children?
3) your party seems to be keen on entering into treaties with agressive, violent and often evil creatures the moment this paladin isnt present. It might be time to question if it is actually an act of good to constantly let monsters off the hook for their actions.
4) The timing of it all is happening a lot faster than people are giving credit. He burst into the clearing and attacked this took mere seconds. No actions took place in between for him other than he was running through the woods chasing the thing that hurt him and his friends. Just because the player was subject to all the exposition...the character wasnt. It wasn't like they got out a table and started signing a peace accord here. Situation are misconstrued.
That is my two CP. He gets a talking to in the form of a vivid dream or holy vision to make sure he doesnt stray from the path and understands that hasty agression is not the way of his order....but striping him of his powers is just a bridge to far for something that is merely a misunderstanding.
Jay the Madman wrote:
This right here is pretty spot on...it is a really nice realiable wand for when you dont want to waste precous spell slots and want to contribute something reliable to the damage totals.
I wouldnt be preparing it or rushing to add it my list or anything but there is value in it not missing/ being saved against etc.
Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
One keen Falcata and a certain feat spread amongst the melee folk in the party come to mind.
Really digging my current inquisitor pirate captain. He seems to always be able to contribute which is nice. Social situation? I am decent face.
I dont dislike them but I see why people do...
And that list took seconds to craft from someone who wouldnt mind playing one someday.
We had one in party who was masterfully played. No changes to rules. He was a Druid who rode around on his Boar. He was played as a nice blend of comic relief and seriousness sort of like a less obnoxious kender. Always curious and very loyal, but often a little misquided. He actually was pretty formidable as he focused heavily on being able to cast from Pig-gy back. So you had a Tank-tastic melee pig flank buddy with a little lizard man perched on his back throwing out buffs, crowd control spells etc...
I have often considered revisiting that players concept with a Kobold sorcerer taking Sylvan to pick up the animal companion. I dont know if I would ride as often as he did as my HP pool is lower but it would still be fun...maybe have a dinosaur buddy.
No you are correct, you need rapid shot....I am just not a proponent of an all eggs in one basket approach. Bombs are a finite resource and a solid back up plan is a good idea unless you do the 15 min. Adventuring day....rapid shot implies you aren't looking to pace yourself....and alchy fire and acid flasks don't level with you like a good bow does.
The only thing I see is if your taking point blank and rapid I would try to squeeze Precise in there somewhere. It isn't needed for the bombs, but if your going that far you might as well make the bow useful...
N. Jolly wrote:
Yeah, I know it is kind of polishing a turd, but I really want to try and make a not terrible crossbow build and it seemed like a novel approach. I will have to see how the party shakes out and see if I can get away with it.
N. Jolly wrote:
really great read sir, I had seen an earlier draft but it is much better now that it is complete. I was wondering what you thought of the utility of using the Grenadier ability to apply alchemy to crossbow bolts. The reason I ask is a badly want to make a decent crossbow character and I think this might be a cool way to do it...bolts with tanglefoot bags and sonic damage, bombs to throw, maybe work in the rogue bits and later on a familiar...
Going back to paragon surge, are you interpreting the addition of the spell as permanent? It seems to me you would lose access to the spell you acquired once the duration of surge is up...so you are constantly casting two spells to get one from another list. Forgive me if this is laid out somewhere and i am asking a dumb question....but I don't see how temp access grants a permanent effect.
Matt Thomason wrote:
I guess I dont run into this that often..nobody at our table does this kind of analysis on anothers character short of "hey maybe you should get a missle weapon" or something like that. I realize though that in a situation like to boards where people are soliciting advise things can get more contentious. Guess I have been fairly sheltered from this sort of thing in my 24 odd years of gaming. Probably why I dont always see what the fuss is about.
I think that you have hit something on the head here..I have long felt the most tactful way of playing the bumbler is to RP him as unintentionally successful. He accidentally stabs the left orc when trying to use his shield to block the one on the right, He cuts the red wire when he meant to cut blue, but it was the right one anyway, he intended to cast fireball and got grease instead just as the giant stepped into the room and slipped on the floor. It is the diplomatic way to be your concept without maiming your party.
Matt Thomason wrote:
Personally when I DM'ed after I offered my advice, If they indicated they didnt want or need it that was the end of the discusion. I think if you are intentionally making someone who isnt competent for one reason or another you are taking it upon yourself to deal with the issues that arrise with that. If you build a 8 strength, 8 con fighter and you do not live all that long or simply never hit anything it does not fall upon the DM to cater to you by tailoring encounters. Gaming with a group is a social contract. Deliberately sandbagging and then bemoaning your lot in life isnt any more noble than deliberately building a murder hobo who derails plots and refuses to be a team player.
Matt Thomason wrote:
I dont know I think he tried very hard to not make it a label but a descriptor of aproach. Maybe sensitivities being what they are right now there is no good way to make people happy. I felt like it was a sliding scale not a "your are type a, you are type b." thing. For example I would say I am pretty 50/50. I have ideas in my head of the person I would be happy pretending to be for a year before I ever even get started on numbers. But that doesnt change the fact I want that person to be good at one form of combat, and have at least one secondary function that contributes to the party...trap finder, crafter, social butterfly, smarty pants...whatever.
Our GM is defintely there to give a hand up to those who are less rules versed among our groupe as well. He helps them shape the Banzai tree as it were so that they get the look and feel they want while everything is still healthy and operates as intended.
In our group it seems like we all build to concept rather than put together builds and slap a concept onto it all after. so there will be campaigns when some are naturally a little more stoutly built just by happen stance. Since we are all adults it is always fine...nobody is getting upset that somebodies chocolate to peanut butter ratio isn't the same as theirs.
I would say I have found that anytime you refer to your style of doing something in a positive light and another's style in a negative light you would be best served to go back and read your post before hitting send. Take a quick review of your tone, your verbiage such and make sure you are saying what you really mean. When you call your way normal or traditional you are assuming that you are the standard by which others are judged and therefore implying others are "doing it wrong". The I am normal menatality may seem harmless but it is unfair to others, and intentionally or not can make you seem like your are picking a fight. If the thread you made enflamed peoples feeling sometimes it is going to get shutdown..even if you didnt mean to do so.
There are hordes of people here who approach the game from a very strong RP perspective, It is great if you want to make threads that engage those people in thought provoking discussion...heck I look forward to contributing, but it quickly comes of as condescending and exlusionary to tell folk they are not doing it the way it was intended to be done just because they like to make strong characters or enjoy engaging in the theory crafting that comes with a rules set as elaborate as many generations of folk from TSR through to Paizo have been kind enough to provide us.
Food for thought brother...we are all gamers here, sometimes it isnt what you said, but how you said it.
Well I did notice one thing..he noted they play once a month for around 4 hours...maybe he feels so rushed and so put out because of how infrequently they meet and how short the sessions are. You really would have to hustle and buckle down to get anything done.
If you meet a little more often and for a little more time it might not feel like you have take such a surgical approach.
Mega Matt wrote:
Yeah...hands are the key. I think the pseudo dragon best fits the flavor of things....but the Mephits work, as does the imp, and a few others. I really encourage using something that flies for its own safety.
Until you get to the level where you can get this up and running I recommend the Compy or the Green Sting scorpion as they give you initiative bonuses...also cool side effect of tattooed sorc. Is you can store them as tattoos on your body...
it could be your initial if you never took one at first level...but odds are you aren't going to do that.
Mega Matt wrote:
It just refers to the fact that a) you need to be a class that can get one. And B) if you dismiss your first one, you have to wait a week to get a new one.
Mega Matt wrote:
It is pretty darn fun...alternately you can back off the blasting a tiny bit and take the Fey Sylvan bloodline and pick up an animal companion to fight for you on the front lines while you blast from the back....need to take boon companion at third though.
You seem to ban a lot of stuff...just curious at what point does banning things because they are the only way to make a build effective make no builds effective?
My advice to the OP. First step, do a character audit and make sure he is legal, Summoners are very commonly built wrong, the system is a tad complicated and vastly different than the norm...screw ups happen, a lot.
Second if he is all legal ask him to make some minor tweaks, a lot of what ends up being overwhelming is the ridiculous 4 armed multi attacking craziness builds. Ask him to go bi-ped and used manufactured weapons. Cutting down on the 50 attacks around quickly brings them in line with a lot of frontline fighters for DPR.
Lastly after those two are done alter your tactics. Target touch AC. Have mobs gang up and assist when it comes to him, use things like walls of ice to fence him off, if need be use anti magic tactics to drop the eidolon off him now and then...though wholesale maiming of a character like that is a last resort.
In short ...make sure he is legal, ask him to tweak and get a little more creative and your game should be fine.
The thing with your summoner is you almost have to actively make bad decision to get even an average character. If you have infact been pulling punches and not building death machines like you say, this can be tough. It also sounds like your party is going out of their way to use bad tactics and create weak pc's as well. They are not just unoptomized they are intentionaly sub-average. That puts you in an even tougher position.
My advice play your character just how you are, and preserve your own fun, They are not taking anyone else's needs into account with their builds and should be thankful you are conintuing to keep them alive. If they dont want to be outshined they need to start pulling their own damn weight. If they complain sight your concerns and ask them how they want to handle it.
Sometimes you can't make yourself responsible for everyone else.
I don't know if it is a whole guide...but I still would love to see something on how to make a viable deadly dealer too.
Since I brought up the synth...I am thinking manufactured weapon, biped, natural weapon biped and quadruped/ many limbed being the core three builds. Again I am really curios about the theory crafting...if I had the chops and the time I would approach it for. The perspective of how you can use it to build any concept from monster manuals, comics, movies, whatever. Maybe even pick out three famous characters that fit those concepts and build them out....less min/ max more look how bad ass this can be....because let's be honest the class seems to be set up so you almost have to try to make a character that isn't pretty powerful.
Was DMing a game where I clearly described that the party was waist deep in swampy water with an oil sheen upon its surface....as they creep closer to the abandoned mine the alchemist makes a check to recognize a smell similar to petroleum. Not a minute later the party is beset by Orcs and the Sorcerer does what you ask? Casts fireball.....
Not saying you were doing this and it looks like you got the advice you were looking for but I think in general it is always important to remember as the DM you know exactly how to take the pc's apart. That doesn't mean your creatures do...make sure their tactics are in keeping with what they know, take into account their baseline intelligence level as well as how much foreknowledge they have....just food for thought.
Good...thought I was crazy for a minute.
Huh..that is how I thought it worked.
Seconded...my current Inquisitor of Besmara pirate captain is an utter blast to play.